The Hi-Point Throwdown


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Justin
July 8, 2010, 05:10 PM
So, over at Way of the Multigun (http://multigun.wordpress.com), I've decided to throw down the gauntlet.

So many people seem to really dig the Hi-Point pistols, I figured I'd see what would happen if one was run through its paces in a side-by-side test with another pistol.

So I threw down a gauntlet here. (http://multigun.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/throwing-down-the-gauntlet-to-hi-point-fans/)

And it got picked up by the marketing guy behind Hi-Point in the comments section.

The followup is here. (http://multigun.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/the-hi-point-gauntlet-has-been-picked-up/)

The pistol should be delivered next week, and I'll be regularly updating the blog with the results from running it in some local Steel Challenge matches.

If you enjoyed reading about "The Hi-Point Throwdown" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
CoRoMo
July 8, 2010, 05:13 PM
Is the particular C9 supposed to be a random pick from the assembly line? Not that it should matter much.

edit: nevermind, I read his comment

W.E.G.
July 8, 2010, 05:24 PM
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/kimber.gif

Hammerhead6814
July 8, 2010, 08:07 PM
I'm looking forward to this. I have no doubt that it won't make the cut, but I'm still a fan of the Hi-Point through and through. It's an inexpensive, reliable firearm that serves a purpose for those of us who are defense or fun-minded (range fun that is). Plus, Hi-Point is the only company with a no-questions-asked asked lifetime warranty that extends to the second or third owner of the gun.

bikerdoc
July 8, 2010, 08:11 PM
Not a pistol but the 995 carbine has won me a lot of money at the range from doubters

Deaf Smith
July 8, 2010, 10:22 PM
Haven't shot their pistols but the 995 carbine is actually a good little rifle. Quite accurate and reliable. Their new 'tactical' one is kind of over jazzed up but still ok (but I'd take off that buttstock part that I think is a recoil reducer. It's totaly unnecessary.

Oh, and if I was them, I'd bring one out in .357 Sig. No other company makes one and that would be almost an M1 Carbine.

And one more thing, THEY NEED THEM TO USE GLOCK MAGS!!!

Deaf

rklessdriver
July 8, 2010, 11:11 PM
This seems interesting. I'm glad a major distributor for Hi-Point took you up on the deal. I'll be watching for your updates...
Will

Strahley
July 9, 2010, 02:29 AM
Can't wait to see the results

GojuBrian
July 9, 2010, 04:36 AM
I subscribed to this thread. I haven't tested the hi-points myself, but I have friends that would only suggest buying the rifles.

Nasty
July 9, 2010, 07:14 AM
Wouldn't about a million people be pretty embarrassed if the Hi-Point actually hangs in the competition?

You go Justin...the Cheap Force is with you!

forindooruseonly
July 9, 2010, 11:36 AM
I'll be following this. I'm an admitted gun snob and would never own one, but I would like to see how it does perform in an honest test. Even if you don't shoot it as well, if you can actually do alright with it I would be fairly impressed. I do believe that cheap guns have a place and if the hi-point works, good for them.

Oldnoob
July 9, 2010, 11:47 AM
Very interesting.

Roswell_Kid
July 9, 2010, 12:58 PM
I admit to being a gun snob too but this speaks very well for Hi Point and here's hoping it performs well. Inexpensive firearms need love too.

Now, if only I could force myself to stand fast and not run away in horror upon seeing a C9. :what:

Wishoot
July 9, 2010, 04:01 PM
No question they are butt-ugly, but that carbine is a ton of fun. I can't wait to see how this all shakes out.

Nasty
July 9, 2010, 04:54 PM
Any honest testing *not* coming from a gun rag (read kickbacks, advertising dollars, etc) will be appreciated.

I have little doubt that the Hi-Point will eventually be crushed in some way, either by wear and tear, parts failures, reliability issues or some other factor primarily due to simple round count, but if we translate the success it may see into real world use (carried a lot, many nights on a bedstand, miles in a glovebox, etc)...they may indeed be proclaimed a Champion for the *average* users who currently own thousands of them and rely on them to protect themselves and their families.

This could be groundbreaking.

I hope it is.

tkopp
July 9, 2010, 05:09 PM
Oh, they're not that bad. You will run slower, though. The heavy slide gives a greater apparent recoil and makes refreshing your sight picture take longer. Other than that, I really have nothing bad to say about the C9 my buddy picked up for $60. It just works.

Sapper771
July 9, 2010, 06:03 PM
I will be following this. I am also interested in how the Hi-point will fair. I wish you luck.

Mike J
July 9, 2010, 08:45 PM
I want to watch this. I know a couple of guys that own Hi Points. One says it does okay as long as you keep it clean. The other said he had problems with it jamming a lot. I came close to buying one a couple of years ago when they had them new at a show for $99. There were too many other things I wanted to do with my gun money to buy a gun just to mess with & see if it would work though.

Mooseman
July 9, 2010, 11:15 PM
looking forward to this thread :)

stickhauler
July 10, 2010, 01:06 AM
I had to recheck the address line in my browser after reading this. "High Road?"

Ok, so if you go to practically any gun forum on the internet, and people start talking about inexpensive or cheap guns, inevitably the Hi-Point fans come crawling out of the woodwork to advocate how the Hi-Point design is just as good as a Glock/SIG/CZ/M&P/other popular semi-auto pistol.

They will, at great length, talk about how the guns are accurate, durable, and just the bee’s knees for any application you’d care to use a handgun for.

And woe unto you if you dare to criticize their bargain-bin darling! If you so much as point out that the guns use a sub-optimal operating system for the calibers in which they’re chambered, you will automatically get labeled as one of those monocle-wearing, mustache-twirling, poor-people-hating gun snobs.

I might also add that if you go onto most any gun forum on the internet you'll find a thread started by someone who never shot a Hi Point pontificate about how ugly they are, how poorly they're made, how inefficient an operating system they use, etc. And to that, anyone who defends the brand sees a usual recrimination from the forum "gun shop" guy telling all who will listen that Hi Points are only bought by "thugs" or "criminals." So maybe some of you folks get your "gun snob" slams thrown back because you bought and paid for them in spades.

As far as I know, MKS is the sole distributor for Hi Point.

And I must have missed the claims from the folks who said their Hi Point was the best gun in the world. I own a C-9, along with several other guns, a few even cheaper than my Hi Point. I have a Mosin Nagant for example that cost me around $60.00 less than my C-9, and it shoots quite accurately as well, if you can stand the recoil. But I loved the comments by your loyal and loving readers about the brand, just as kind words as you usually see from those who, again, just as likely never shot one in their lives.

But forgive me for being skeptical about your fair, unbiased assessment of the brand.

evan price
July 10, 2010, 05:38 AM
Justin:

I will repeat the gist of what I said to you in the other post that was locked, and what I said at Tam's place.

The Hi-point is intended as a defensive gun for people who can't afford better- and it's a much better choice than the Ring-Of-Fire guns. It's intended to be stuck in a nightstand or toolbox and kept for just in case. It's not intended for a competition pistol. It's the equivalent of entering a $500 CraigsList Honda in the Indy 500 (instead of the 24-hours of LeMons).

If the C9 does well for you, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

As a supporter of the Hi-Point pistols- when used for the purpose they were designed- I can say that I wish you well. But I don't think you'll be 100% satisfied. I never said that a Hi-Point was as good as or better than a quality handgun (Glock, Sig, XD, etc). And I said it right on Tam's- a good used S&W Model 10 beats a Hi-Point in nearly any area that you care to quantify except price and capacity.

But if you need a gun- and can't afford more than $100- you could do a lot worse than Hi-Point. The two examples in my family work, on the nastiest surplus 9mm or my lead handloads. They are not ergonomically pleasant, light, easy handling guns, and they will give you a nasty slide kiss above your thumb if you choke up too high.

Think of them like a spare tire. Not a great tire. But it will get you home.

Good luck with your endeavor.

CajunBass
July 10, 2010, 07:01 AM
If the one you get is anything like the one I've got, I think you'll be surprised. I doubt you'll clean anybody's clock with it, but it should work just fine.

And I must have missed the claims from the folks who said their Hi Point was the best gun in the world.

Well, I think that was sort of tongue in cheek, but I have seen a bunch of threads where Hi-Point owners have said their guns were "just as good" as (insert brand name here). Don't kid yourself, Hi-Point fans can be just as snobby as anybody. A Hi-Point might shoot just as well as (insert brand name here) but that doesn't make it "just as good."

Nasty
July 10, 2010, 07:49 AM
Won't it be a hoot if it *does* hang with the big boys though?

Geezer Glide
July 10, 2010, 08:03 AM
The HiPoint is not marketed as a match gun, it's an inexpensive gun for people that cannot or do not want to spend a lot of money for protection. I have serious doubts that the reviewer will be objective.

W.E.G.
July 10, 2010, 09:00 AM
The Steel Challenge is a challenging event FOR THE SHOOTER.

I don't think it especially challenges the gun.

If I understand the game correctly, you shoot roughly a half-dozen steel targets as fast as you can.
Each target must be hit.
You get graded for speed.

Each shooter fires are several relays, but not so many to challenge the gun in any meaningful way.

I expect the Hi-Point to function without issue in this game.

I assume the game is fired in different classes (i.e. "race guns" don't compete with "stock" guns)

Unless the shooter is a Master-Class shooter, I doubt that choice-of-gun will have any substantial impact on score.

1911Tuner
July 10, 2010, 09:03 AM
Back in the day, Hi-Points were selling like ice water to damned souls in hell. It was inevitible that one or more of the gang would encounter one eventually. Several of'em went a step further and bought one of the butt-ugly things. Some bought more than one. I mean...with an out-the-door price of a buck 30 and a Sears Craftsman-like warranty...it was hard to go wrong.

It was also inevitible that we'd get around to puttin'em through their paces...just to see what all the hoopla was about. One weekend in the fall of the year...it all came together with over a dozen pistols and several shooters. There were nines and forty fives...all equally ugly and cumbersome...at least to my refined eye and delicate hand.

Accuracy wasn't exactly sterling, but that was expected, given the price tag and the gawdawful trigger. What wasn't expected was that it was completely adequate for the purpose of self defense from 2 feet out to 15 yards. More than adequate, actually. A few were surprising in that area.

The real surprise came with the reliability of those cheap, fugly guns. All except three ran like Timex watches, and of the three...only one proved to be an actual problem with the gun. The others were due to magazine problems. When we switched to a known good magazine...the problems vanished. All three were .45 caliber, incidentally. The nines gave zero problems.

Day two was pretty much a repeat of the first day...in the beginning. As the round count climbed, we had a few failures. Two extractors let go on pistols that were approaching 2500 rounds from beater duty prior to the test, and a couple others stopped working because of built-up crud. One had a repeated failure to reset the trigger...also due to being dirty. A quick blast with Advance Auto's most excellent carb cleaner, and they were back online.

As the crud continued to build, the pistols got sluggish, and we started having failures to go to full battery, but a bump on the rear of the slide did the trick. Cleaning and oiling returned the guns to good function.

At the end of the day, we all had to admit that we'd been a bit hasty in our initial snarky assessments. The pistols were actually a pretty good deal. Cheap enough to buy in multiples for strategic stashing around the homestead or for trunk/pickup/tackle box duty, and reliable enough to trust in an emergency provided they're clean and the magazines are up to snuff. Magazines seem to be the main culprit in functional reliability.

It should be noted that limp-wrist malfunctions can be induced, but one has to work at it a bit. They're at their best with good, clean ammunition. As a whole, they didn't care much for cast bullet reloads, but were reliable enough with that for range work. A couple of'em did fine, but the rest didn't fare so well when the funky ammo came out.

Approach your test-run with an open mind, and don't expect to make Grand Master with it. You'll likely find that the gun is completely satisfactory in a utilitarian way...and that is, after all, the role that it's intended to fill. Just don't expect'em to digest 10,000 rounds a year.

As a footnote...on the two with failed extractors...A call to the factory rep resulted in repair parts being overnighted, and everything was a straight up drop-in fix.

bikerdoc
July 10, 2010, 09:08 AM
1911 Tuner, Thank you for that factual summary.

Tallinar
July 10, 2010, 09:12 AM
However, if the Hi-Point fails to live up to the reputation of its online adherents and I do not place as well as or better with the Hi-Point, or it fails mechanically to the point where I can no longer use it at matches, I reserve the right to bag on Hi-Point guns to my heart's content from now until the day I die.

I loved that last part, lol.

Can't wait to see the results.

7.62 Nato
July 10, 2010, 09:21 AM
Oh, and if I was them, I'd bring one out in .357 Sig. No other company makes one and that would be almost an M1 Carbine.

Deaf
I was thinking the same thing about the 357 Sig yesterday. But what I'd really like to see is the .45 ACP Carbine I've been hearing about for sooooooooo long. (And please don't make it AS ugly). Accepting 1911 mags would be a major plus.

birddog2
July 10, 2010, 09:31 AM
1911 Tuner,
That seemed fair enough, I've ran thousands of rounds of .380 and 45acp through mine. Mostly handloads and lead. Agree with magazine comment and when they do screw up a little carb cleaner goes a long way. They are functional and do serve a purpose. Their customer service is outstanding, something this country has been lacking for some time now. Looking forward to following this thread.

Justin
July 12, 2010, 11:48 AM
I admit to being a gun snob too but this speaks very well for Hi Point and here's hoping it performs well. Inexpensive firearms need love too.

I was, frankly, very surprised that the blog post got attention from not only so many other gun bloggers, but also from someone associated with Hi-Point. I'm looking forward to conducting the tests.

I had to recheck the address line in my browser after reading this. "High Road?"

If you had checked the web address when you read that type, it should have read multigun.wordpress.com, which is my personal blog. So far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the moderator contract that says I have to abide by THR rules on every other website on the internet too.

:)

The Hi-point is intended as a defensive gun for people who can't afford better- and it's a much better choice than the Ring-Of-Fire guns. It's intended to be stuck in a nightstand or toolbox and kept for just in case. It's not intended for a competition pistol. It's the equivalent of entering a $500 CraigsList Honda in the Indy 500 (instead of the 24-hours of LeMons).

For the most part you are correct, however, is that really any reason not to run one of these pistols harder than average to see what happens?

The HiPoint is not marketed as a match gun, it's an inexpensive gun for people that cannot or do not want to spend a lot of money for protection. I have serious doubts that the reviewer will be objective.

My biases are perfectly known to those who've read my posts or blog, or who are willing to avail themselves of the search function. I've never said I was completely objective, and to claim so would be contrary to the truth.

I will, however, be fair. If the gun runs, and runs well, I have no intention of skewing the results. The specifications for the test are laid out in my blog post.

The Steel Challenge is a challenging event FOR THE SHOOTER.

I don't think it especially challenges the gun.

Our local Steel Challenge matches have a round count generally of about 100 rounds. Shooting the pistol in a half-dozen local matches means the gun will have had about 600 rounds put through it, which is a lot less than a long-term competition gun, but much more than one would see from your average magazine review.

It also offers a much easier metric to measure, since the stages are all pretty much known (with the exception of a couple of local made up stages), and each stage is shot more than once, which should allow for minimization of errors.

I expect the Hi-Point to function without issue in this game.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. What would you consider to be an adequate test?

I assume the game is fired in different classes (i.e. "race guns" don't compete with "stock" guns)

Yes. Steel Challenge divisions break down into categories somewhat analogous to what you would see for USPSA. There are a couple of additional divisions, however, including Open and Limited Rimfire.

Unless the shooter is a Master-Class shooter, I doubt that choice-of-gun will have any substantial impact on score.

I guess we'll find out, won't we? :)
For the sake of clarification, I'm currently a B-Class USPSA shooter.

redneckrepairs
July 12, 2010, 02:16 PM
I for one welcome " Team Hi-Point" . However the pistol performs it will be an interesting saga. While I would not buy a Hi-Point ( I can afford better , if that is snobbery so be it ) I look forward to an impartial test. I know Justins integrity and the " test " will be honest with no attempt to load the process or skew the results .

Maverick223
July 12, 2010, 02:43 PM
Not much of a pistol guy myself, but I am looking forward to the results of this endeavor. I think we may be surprised by the performance, and at the very least entertained. I wish you the best of luck in the assessment and matches.

:)

JoeSlomo
July 12, 2010, 02:53 PM
My predictions....

Mechanically, the gun will do fine with no major parts breakage. 600 rounds shouldn't be enough to stress any semi-auto imo.

Performance wise, the shooter will take a hit on speed and accuracy due to funky ergo's and a crappy trigger.

End result: The Hi-point will prove adequate for what it is marketed for, no more, no less...

hso
July 12, 2010, 02:58 PM
Good to see an extended test being run with this firearm. A neighbor would bring one over to my little pistol range behind my house and I saw him put probably 300-400 rounds through it with out a failure. He was shooting the same 9mm ammunition that I shot.

Deltaboy
July 12, 2010, 03:01 PM
This ought to be quite interesting.

Fremmer
July 12, 2010, 03:16 PM
I'll love it if the hi-point wins and they become the fad on this board. Sort of like all of these people suddenly deciding to keep chickens; how crazy is that?

Anyway, run it through and let us know how it does. Is this going to be one of those tests where you don't clean it between shooting sessions? I hope not.

Justin
July 12, 2010, 04:46 PM
I don't clean my competition guns all that often, to be completely honest.

mcdonl
July 12, 2010, 06:08 PM
Great idea... thanks again Justin and others for making this the place to be...

2 Comments

1 - I have always said that the reason I like Hi-Point is the people behind the company. Tom and Shirley are good people, and if you want to find out for sure, call the number. They will answer.

2 - Turner1911 said It should be noted that limp-wrist malfunctions can be induced, but one has to work at it a bit. The paradox about the C9 is everyone is always trying to say it is a good gun to see if a new shooter likes the sport. The problem is, in my opinion (And I own a C9 and 995TS) is that because of what Turner points out the gun is a TERRIBLE choice for a new shooter.

I subscribed to this thread also.

I look forward to it. And, if it does not hold up to the challenge the REAL test of the brand will be what the manufacturers do about it.

Dionysusigma
July 12, 2010, 09:49 PM
New shooters should be introduced to shooting by experienced shooters, not by buying a random gun and going to the range by themselves.

You don't teach a kid how to read by handing them War and Peace right off the get-go.

Take people who have never gone shooting to the range, and do it often. Train them how to shoot on as many different guns as possible until they find something they like, then focus on that. Start small-caliber/gauge, start with something accurate, start with something reliable, so that when something doesn't go according to plan they can learn effectively from the situation with guidance from the teacher. E.g., if they're all over the paper with a TC Encore in .22, it's probably not the gun's fault.

I have nothing against Hi-Point; in fact, I've wanted one for a few years (but haven't found anyone locally who sells them, and refuse to pay exorbitant shipping and $40 transfer fees that double the price of the gun). However, insisting a true novice uses one as their first exposure to shooting is pure ignorance and idiocy. Teach them how to shoot. Let them discover what they prefer. Then, and only then, make recommendations as to what they should buy. Finally, teach them how to run the weapon.

/rant off :)

bigfatdave
July 12, 2010, 10:53 PM
I have nothing against Hi-Point; in fact, I've wanted one for a few years (but haven't found anyone locally who sells them, and refuse to pay exorbitant shipping and $40 transfer fees that double the price of the gun).

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/dealer_locator/dealer_locator.html
There seem to be a few.

Dionysusigma
July 15, 2010, 02:45 PM
I'm giving this thread a nudge as I'm curious as to an update.

Justin
July 16, 2010, 05:02 PM
I spoke with my FFL today, and they have the gun in hand. As of now, I'm planning to pick it up this evening.

Maverick223
July 16, 2010, 05:20 PM
I'd like to see a preliminary review of the new HP before testing if you have the time.

:)

Quickstrike
July 16, 2010, 05:27 PM
Should be interesting. I honestly wouldn't buy one regardless of how it does, but that's partially because I already have a bunch of glocks and M&P's.

Don't want another mouth to feed so to speak, and practicing with a Hi-point probably wouldn't improve my shooting with the others.

Shoot safe!

Deltaboy
July 16, 2010, 11:19 PM
I will be checking back for some results and comments.

Dionysusigma
July 19, 2010, 05:10 AM
So, did you ever pick it up? If you did, what do you think of it? Shot it any? :confused:

harmon rabb
July 19, 2010, 06:29 AM
Plus, Hi-Point is the only company with a no-questions-asked asked lifetime warranty that extends to the second or third owner of the gun.

not quite true. kel-tec and rock island armory will do the same, even if their official warranty document don't say so.

TechBrute
July 19, 2010, 08:40 AM
I'm sure if you only had $100, you could do a lot worse. Having said that, if you have $1000 you can do a lot better. No, I've never owned a Hi-point. Unless something changes, I won't.

I've never fired one, but seeing one is all the qualification someone needs to form an opinion about it's aesthetics, and mine is that it is ugly, one of the ugliest guns on the market. I have handled them multiple times, and my opinion is that the ergonomics do not suit me. They seem to have a high bore axis, and the trigger seemed gritty in the examples I have handled.

Calling a spade a spade doesn't make me a firearm snob. If you think that a hi-point is on par with a Glock, HK, Sig, etc, I think you haven't handled or fired both sides of the debates...

MATTHEW QUIGLEY
July 19, 2010, 11:03 AM
Justin, I noticed one minor problem in how you stated you would perform the test. You said you would tweak the handloads as necessary to get the best performance from the Hi-Point. You also said you would use the same ammo in the CZ and Hi-Point. Are you going to use the Hi-Point's preferred reload in the CZ? I know this is nitpicking, but I just want to see the Hi-Point get the fairest shake.

I don't love Hi-points nor hate them. I have a Hi-point .40 I bought fresh out of college b/c it was all I could afford. I wasn't one of these priveledged kids who had hand-me-down Sigs and HKs. It is what it is, a top-heavy, ugly, awkward pistol that is pretty reliable and actually has better sights than most any other pistol.

I will say this, I bought mine used and it was full of crud. I put probably 200 rounds thru it w/o cleaning and it had more crud, but had never malfunctioned at all. I took it apart (which is extremely hard and the one major downfall of HI-Points imo) cleaned it then reassembled it. After it had been cleaned, it jammed so much I was ready to put it in the trash. Finally, I guess it built up enough crud it started running fine again. I don't really understand this phenomenon, but I'll never clean it again. Ever.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 19, 2010, 03:40 PM
Even since its ugly, take pictures of it and post it!

christcorp
July 19, 2010, 04:12 PM
The only thing that bothers me is when people say things like: "The hi-point WAS INTENDED ......". Basically, the dot-dot-dot is filled in with "If they can't afford anything more". Basically, that's such a naive and uninformed opinion. Yet, so many people say it. I'm glad that Justin is going to put a hi-point through the paces. If it bombs, in his opinion, then basically he will become the "Authority" for the gun bashers and snobs. If he says the hi-point is actually a pretty reliable gun, then maybe some of the "If you can't afford better" crowd will learn a little bit about what they're talking about before speaking.

And this isn't a slam on these people. There's a lot of hi-point supporters who say "if you can't afford anything else". They too are wrong. Price has absolutely NOTHING to do with getting a hi-point. If it does for you, then you are buying a gun for the wrong reason. That's like saying a ford focus is a good car if that's all you can afford. Again, a silly example. Sometimes, the focus is the PERFECT CAR for what you want/need. Sometimes the hi-point is the perfect gun for what you want/need. Get the money crap out of your heads.

Is the hi-point a good carry gun? Nope, it sucks. Is it a good concealed gun? Nope, it sucks again. Is it a good home defense gun? Yes. Truck/Boat/Garage? Yes. For a small person? Nope. For a person with big hands? Yes. As an inexpensive gun that you PLAN on BEATING up camping, boating, in a toolbox, etc...? Yes, perfect. I don't want to do these things to my kimber or sig. Hi-points are the perfect gun for certain things. And it's NOT because it's "All I can afford". In today's economy, the price of a new Hi-point and a used something else can be close enough in price that the cost shouldn't be the determining factor. There's guns like Glocks, FOR ME, could be given to me FOR FREE, (BEST PRICE POSSIBLE), and I still wouldn't keep it. For me, Glock sucks. Not sucks for everyone, but for me, yes they do.

Anyway, hopefully people will learn that the hi-point has redeeming qualities and uses; and isn't ONLY for people who can't afford another gun.

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 04:26 PM
Is it a good home defense gun? Yes. Truck/Boat/Garage? Yes. For a small person? Nope. For a person with big hands? Yes. As an inexpensive gun that you PLAN on BEATING up camping, boating, in a toolbox, etc...? Yes, perfect.Why is it so good for those tasks...would it not be because it is cheap, or is there some other redeeming quality that I am missing?

:)

MATTHEW QUIGLEY
July 19, 2010, 04:54 PM
The only thing that bothers me is when people say things like: "The hi-point WAS INTENDED ......". Basically, the dot-dot-dot is filled in with "If they can't afford anything more". Basically, that's such a naive and uninformed opinion. Yet, so many people say it. I'm glad that Justin is going to put a hi-point through the paces. If it bombs, in his opinion, then basically he will become the "Authority" for the gun bashers and snobs. If he says the hi-point is actually a pretty reliable gun, then maybe some of the "If you can't afford better" crowd will learn a little bit about what they're talking about before speaking.

And this isn't a slam on these people. There's a lot of hi-point supporters who say "if you can't afford anything else". They too are wrong. Price has absolutely NOTHING to do with getting a hi-point. If it does for you, then you are buying a gun for the wrong reason. That's like saying a ford focus is a good car if that's all you can afford. Again, a silly example. Sometimes, the focus is the PERFECT CAR for what you want/need. Sometimes the hi-point is the perfect gun for what you want/need. Get the money crap out of your heads.

Is the hi-point a good carry gun? Nope, it sucks. Is it a good concealed gun? Nope, it sucks again. Is it a good home defense gun? Yes. Truck/Boat/Garage? Yes. For a small person? Nope. For a person with big hands? Yes. As an inexpensive gun that you PLAN on BEATING up camping, boating, in a toolbox, etc...? Yes, perfect. I don't want to do these things to my kimber or sig. Hi-points are the perfect gun for certain things. And it's NOT because it's "All I can afford". In today's economy, the price of a new Hi-point and a used something else can be close enough in price that the cost shouldn't be the determining factor. There's guns like Glocks, FOR ME, could be given to me FOR FREE, (BEST PRICE POSSIBLE), and I still wouldn't keep it. For me, Glock sucks. Not sucks for everyone, but for me, yes they do.

Anyway, hopefully people will learn that the hi-point has redeeming qualities and uses; and isn't ONLY for people who can't afford another gun.
Money is not an issue? Do you really think people would buy these if they could afford or wanted to spend more? No. Hi-point is banking on money being an issue. Cut labor and materials costs and sell an inexpensive pistol, that works. Personally, if money wasn't an issue, all my beaters would be Colt Pythons and Ed Browns, and I'd plink with a Desert Eagle in .50 AE.

TechBrute
July 19, 2010, 04:59 PM
and I'd plink with a Desert Eagle in .50 AE.

I get that you were making a point, but I wouldn't plink with a DE in .50AE no matter how much money I had... OUCH!

:D

christcorp
July 19, 2010, 07:47 PM
Money is not an issue? Do you really think people would buy these if they could afford or wanted to spend more? No. Hi-point is banking on money being an issue. Cut labor and materials costs and sell an inexpensive pistol, that works. Personally, if money wasn't an issue, all my beaters would be Colt Pythons and Ed Browns, and I'd plink with a Desert Eagle in .50 AE.
I own a couple of hi-points, and there isn't a gun on the planet that I can't afford. Except maybe some collector weapon that was the original gun that Hitler, Billy the kid, etc... carried. But as far as commercial consumer pistols, there isn't one I couldn't buy without even balancing a checkbook. Yet, I still own a hi-point. I also own kimber, colt, springfields, s&w, and numerous others. Many that are WELL over a thousand dollars. Why do I buy hi-point then? Because the reason I can afford any pistol I want, is because I am very good with money. I don't buy things that waste my money. If I want a basic defensive gun to keep in my garage; in the tool box; in 100 degree or -20 degree temps; that gets banged around with all the other tools; why spend $600+ on a pistol, when a $150 will be just as effective? Then again, I don't go out buying a $500,000 house if I only had a $50,000 a year job. Or a mercedes if my paycheck isn't conducive.

There is no doubt that individuals who can't afford a more expensive gun, has a great option having hi-points around. My comment was for those out there who tend to believe that the ONLY TIME a hi-point is worth buying, is if you CAN'T afford anything else. Such as you Quigley. There are plenty of people that own a hi-point that can and DO afford more expensive guns. Go to the hi-point forums and check for yourself.

If you DON'T buy a hi-point, for the SOLE reason being because you CAN AFFORD a more expensive pistol, then you are financially irresponsible. And fortunately, you don't work with any of my investments. If you don't want a hi-point because it's heavy; GOOD DECISION. If it's because it's ugly; GOOD DECISION. If it's because bulky and you can't carry it; GOOD DECISION. If you have tried them and don't like the way they shoot; GOOD DECISION. If you don't buy one because you CAN AFFORD a more expensive pistol; THEN YOU'RE A Gun Snob that knows very little about firearms.

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 08:00 PM
While I won't say that a HP is a poor choice for anyone that wants one, and I won't argue that they are well suited to certain tasks, that is only the case because they are inexpensive. I can't see how they are any better at anything (other than perhaps being used as a club) than other designs that cost several times as much, and while that doesn't necessarily mean that only folks that have the funds to buy a more costly pistol shouldn't purchase one, that does mean that cost is a paramount aspect.

:)

David E
July 19, 2010, 08:03 PM
Price has absolutely NOTHING to do with getting a hi-point.

BS

If it's true the "price has absolutely NOTHING to do with getting a hi-point," would you pay $500 for one?

I didn't think so.

birddog2
July 19, 2010, 08:12 PM
I can afford and do own nice firearms, I did buy my hi-points because of price.
I thought they would make cheap plinkers for the kids to beat up, where would I fall in to this picture.
They are reliable, accurate and inexpensive.

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 08:39 PM
...where would I fall in to this picture.As someone with both financial and common sense. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/xyxthumbs.gif

armoredman
July 19, 2010, 09:34 PM
I am also very interested in this test. I sold HiPoint years ago, and they have come a VERY long way from the original Jericho design. The unlimited lifetime warantee caught my eye, as a company that is always replacing guns couldn't afford that - Jennings had a 30 second warantee, IIRC. :)
I wouldn't mind shooting one sometime, to see what it is like.

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 09:41 PM
...they have come a VERY long way from the original Jericho design.Jericho?...like the IMI Jericho? :confused:

TechBrute
July 19, 2010, 10:34 PM
The way some of you talk, you have guns in your toolboxes, under your seats, behind the sofas, etc. Y'all are way more careless with guns than I am. I don't have a single gun out of my control (either on my person or locked away.) But, I'm just careful like that. I don't need 6 hi-points, 1 Glock will do me just fine, thanks...

Roswell_Kid
July 19, 2010, 10:50 PM
Now that the Chicago police have so knowledgeably declared all Hi-Point firearms unsafe, I hope the Hi-Points in this test kick ass and take names.

In your face, Daley. :barf:

1911Tuner
July 19, 2010, 10:58 PM
Guns stashed around the house isn't necessarily a bad idea...provided there aren't any kids or irresponsible people who could find one. I know a retired cop who has a loaded pistol in every room.

That said, I think the problem with the Hi-Points is mainly a matter of image. How can any gun that sells for so little possibly be any good? Right?

There have been many inespensive guns through the years that have proven themselves to be very good. One of the best double shotguns that I ever owned was a 20 gauge Stevens 311 that I bought new for 80 bucks out the door. It not only patterned well with the whole gamut of upland shot sizes in both low and high brass variations...it shot where it looked, and the patterns converged at 35 yards. I killed a truckload of game with that little shotgun. Could I have done better with a more expensive gun? I doubt it. It served me well for years, and I passed it down to a stepson. He uses it every year, and it still kills game like the hammer of Thor.

The Hi-Point pistols fill a niche. Several actually. Most of them function just fine, and they're accurate enough to keep a body alive when there are people who are actively working to end it. There are an untold number of people who would be alive today if they'd had a Hi-Point handy when The Beast came to call. There are young women who have been forced into the trunks of their own cars who would have been very thankful had a cheap Hi-Point been stashed in that trunk. I wonder how many scoff at those RG revolvers that sold for 35 dollars in the 80s...and then I wonder how many people are alive because of an RG.

We don't buy Hi-Points to go target shooting with, though many do use them for that. We don't buy them to compete with...though many do that, too. There are scores of better guns for those activities. Non-gun types buy Hi-Points and RGs and Ravens because they go bang when "bang" may be all that stands between us and a coffin.

They buy them for a little peace of mind in a nightstand or a glove box or for an old man to place on top of a refigerator...just in case. They're for a single mother who hustles tips as a waitress and can barely keep the lights turned on...and she wants something there to let her sleep a little better at night because she can't afford an apartment on the "good" side of town.

150 bucks ain't such a bad deal if you think about it.

TechBrute
July 19, 2010, 10:59 PM
Now that the Chicago police have so knowledgeably declared all Hi-Point firearms unsafe, I hope the Hi-Points in this test kick ass and take names.

Ugh. Another discriminatory move by Chicago to keep guns away from lower-income people.

armoredman
July 19, 2010, 11:04 PM
My bad, I had the wrong name, it was the JS Maverick,

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/MaverickArmsJS9mmcombo.jpg

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 11:32 PM
My bad, I had the wrong name, it was the JS MaverickDon't know anything about it, but judging from your pictures I can see the family resemblance. FWIW, the Jericho (or Baby Eagle) has been a very reliable, solid performing pistol, if a little on the heavy side in my experience.

:)

litman252
July 20, 2010, 12:22 AM
This will be fun, LGS sells 1-3 a week on average for the last 2 + years, not a one has come back. Some people buy two.

I'd happily take one to keep the 1911's company, what else to put in the garage as a just-in-case handgun??


Best,
Tony

Nasty
July 20, 2010, 09:37 AM
Is there a HiPoint equivalent for a Colt SAA on the market? It'd be fun for cowboy days...not serious shooting, just cowboy style plinking.

mcdonl
July 20, 2010, 10:20 AM
Is there a HiPoint equivalent for a Colt SAA on the market? It'd be fun for cowboy days...not serious shooting, just cowboy style plinking.

Yes, Heritage Rough Rider.

armoredman
July 20, 2010, 10:50 AM
The JS Maverick was many years ago. Yes, the IMI Jericho 941 is an excellent pistol, CZ75 based, Tanfoglio built.
IIRC, the JS Maverick needed a wooden dowel to be stripped for cleaning...

Maverick223
July 20, 2010, 11:27 AM
Yes, the IMI Jericho 941 is an excellent pistol, CZ75 based, Tanfoglio built.Never put that together, but now that I think about it that makes perfect sense.

:)

DasFriek
July 20, 2010, 11:56 AM
Ive never bought a Hi-Point and doubt i ever will.
Im pretty sure im not a gun snob either, I just don't have a use for one.
My gun collection is kept low as i cant afford to collect guns, But i buy guns i need.
IE, 1911 for ccw, Mossy 500spx, two .22's a pistol and a rifle.

So seeing i keep my numbers down i need very specific guns to fill my needed roles. None of which HI-Point makes a gun for.
Unless you want to say i could use a HP45 over my 500 but that would make no sense as a scatter gun in much better at HD and i already own a 1911 that i ccw.

Anyhow what im saying is just because i don't own one doesn't mean im a gun snob. As a matter of fact i think they are great for what they are. And they sure as heck beat the old ring of fire guns that preceded them that for alot of people filled the same role.

Why police pick them out as a "Most used by criminals" type gun i don't know. But last i looked and ive hung around some shady people earlier in my life, They much preferred a Glock or a cheap .22lr/.25acp

Hopefully the HP does well in the testing,and if it doesn't the OP can send it in and get a new one. If this gun didn't have the warranty and customer support it does i think this would be a whole new ballgame.

CoRoMo
July 20, 2010, 12:52 PM
Years ago, I bought a C9 that was priced at $80. That was probably the only impulse buy that I've ever made. Sometimes I've thought that it was a regretful action, but not that regretful. After all, it was only priced at $80.

I shot it a lot at first, but then I just got bored with it. Yes, it never once gave me a hiccup. It would only stop up if the wife wasn't locking her wrist. So it just kept going until I decided I liked any and all of my other pistols more than this one. Then, I sort of became snobbish about it and I didn't really like the idea of owning one and I hated the fact that a few of my family members jumped on the bandwagon and also bought a few Hi-Points of their own.

Time passed and I figured it would be a good gun for my kids to learn on. This way they wouldn't be misusing Daddy's betters. That would be the role then, and I was again satisfied that I bought it.

But my point of view kept evolving, and I've grown to like this little nine for what it is. I might even have to get me another one.

rondog
July 20, 2010, 02:29 PM
OK, after this test is ran with the H-P pistol, how about another test with an H-P carbine in one of those carbine courses? Like a 995 or 4095? I have a 4095 and bought a 995 for my grandson, and man are those things fun!

Onward Allusion
July 20, 2010, 02:32 PM
Very, very well said.


1911Tuner (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=5188)
<SNIP>The Hi-Point pistols fill a niche. Several actually. Most of them function just fine, and they're accurate enough to keep a body alive when there are people who are actively working to end it. There are an untold number of people who would be alive today if they'd had a Hi-Point handy when The Beast came to call. There are young women who have been forced into the trunks of their own cars who would have been very thankful had a cheap Hi-Point been stashed in that trunk. I wonder how many scoff at those RG revolvers that sold for 35 dollars in the 80s...and then I wonder how many people are alive because of an RG.
<SNIP>
They buy them for a little peace of mind in a nightstand or a glove box or for an old man to place on top of a refigerator...just in case. They're for a single mother who hustles tips as a waitress and can barely keep the lights turned on...and she wants something there to let her sleep a little better at night because she can't afford an apartment on the "good" side of town.

150 bucks ain't such a bad deal if you think about it.

Maverick223
July 20, 2010, 02:40 PM
OK, after this test is ran with the H-P pistol, how about another test with an H-P carbine in one of those carbine courses?+1 for a post-pistol carbine test.

:)

Dionysusigma
July 21, 2010, 08:25 PM
Still waiting on any kind of input from Justin on the pistol itself. ;)

John Wayne
July 21, 2010, 10:12 PM
I'm not sure this would be the best test for the gun. Steel challenge is based purely on speed, and you're comparing two relatively different guns. When I shoot in steel challenge with two different guns of good quality (S&W revolver and XDM), the revolver is still noticably slower. Doesn't mean it's a bad gun, or that it's any less accurate. What I'm saying is that if the Hi Point is slower, it doesn't mean it's inferior.

I would think that as long as the Hi Point functions correctly, doesn't give too many stoppages, and doesn't adversely hinder the speed of the shooter, I would call it a win for the HP based on price. This is still a great thread and a great idea--I would be interested in seeing how other budget guns do, like the Kel Tec P11, S&W Sigma, Taurus 24/7s and so on.

No one can make the argument that the Hi Point is a better gun than the CZ. It was not designed or priced to be -- my point has always been that Hi Points are adequate. Not the best, just adequate.

I definately support what you're doing, but if I had $150 to contribute, I would buy a C9 and shoot steel with it myself against my XDM :)

DasFriek
July 22, 2010, 01:55 AM
John Wayne-
I'm not sure this would be the best test for the gun. Steel challenge is based purely on speed, and you're comparing two relatively different guns. When I shoot in steel challenge with two different guns of good quality (S&W revolver and XDM), the revolver is still noticably slower. Doesn't mean it's a bad gun, or that it's any less accurate. What I'm saying is that if the Hi Point is slower, it doesn't mean it's inferior.

I would think that as long as the Hi Point functions correctly, doesn't give too many stoppages, and doesn't adversely hinder the speed of the shooter, I would call it a win for the HP based on price. This is still a great thread and a great idea--I would be interested in seeing how other budget guns do, like the Kel Tec P11, S&W Sigma, Taurus 24/7s and so on.

I think the gun would have to pretty much work flawlessly with no stoppages or break downs regardless of speed or scores.
Reliability is the point of this test i thought and if the OP who is doing the testing knows how to shoot these competitions he should be most prepared to get the gun up to speed with him making adjustments to his game.

I hope the big piece of pot metal finishes with a 100% reliable record with decent accuracy scores. I like underdogs.

Much more fun than seeing someone try it with a supped up exotic HK or the like.

David E
July 22, 2010, 02:34 AM
Just priced some Hi Points in my area.......$200 for the 9mm and .45

$160 for a .380

I'd rather buy a used S&W Model 10

DasFriek
July 22, 2010, 08:24 AM
I live in Ohio where thet are made and generally the prices go like this at my LGS that always has low prices.
http://vanceoutdoors.com/flyer/flyer.pdf
.380 $119
9mm $129
.40 $149
.45 $149

Justin
July 22, 2010, 12:53 PM
OK, after this test is ran with the H-P pistol, how about another test with an H-P carbine in one of those carbine courses? Like a 995 or 4095? I have a 4095 and bought a 995 for my grandson, and man are those things fun!

If someone's willing to send me a carbine, mags, mag carriers, ammo, and foot the cost of attending a carbine course, I'll happily do so. ;)


I've posted a new update on the blog here. (http://multigun.wordpress.com/2010/07/22/hi-point-throwdown-the-beginning/)

Just a teaser for you guys, I've since shot the gun in a practice session last Sunday and an actual Steel Challenge match yesterday. Our Steel Challenge matches are held on Wednesdays, so you can expect updates on the test late in the week for the next few weeks.

I'll try to get the stuff from the practice session and the match up and live by this weekend.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 22, 2010, 01:09 PM
haha Its ugly! Any chance to lighten that trigger?

Justin
July 23, 2010, 10:03 PM
Nah. I'm going to leave the trigger stock.

At any rate, I've put up a new post from my practice session last Sunday.

Trigger Pullin' (http://multigun.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/hi-point-throwdown-trigger-pullin/)

ccsniper
July 24, 2010, 12:17 AM
I have done my own "torture test" on a High point and it performed pretty well, but I would like to see some real torture tests done on some high point pistols.

mcdonl
July 24, 2010, 07:48 AM
Yeah, that's a lot of setup Justin!! Geeze, are you able to drive up close to where you are setup? This is so cool. I am glad someone is doing this.

harmon rabb
July 24, 2010, 09:40 AM
Just priced some Hi Points in my area.......$200 for the 9mm and .45

for $200, someone on a budget is far better off with some quality milsurp pistols. makarov, pa-63, cz-82, tokarev, etc.

and that's my problem with hi-points. for about the same cost, or only a bit more, you can get some milsurp pistols that are actually quality guns. were i gun-less and in a severe economic situation, i think i'd eat ramen noodles for a couple weeks if necessary, so that i could afford a milsurp pistol instead.

1911Tuner
July 24, 2010, 10:20 AM
for $200, someone on a budget is far better off with some quality milsurp pistols. makarov, pa-63, cz-82, tokarev, etc.

Again...the issue is one of availability, assuming that the potential buyer is even aware of Makarovs and Tokarevs. Many people who buy guns for security aren't gun people. They aren't into guns at all, and wouldn't know a Makarov or a Tokarev if one fell on their heads. They want a gun on the cheap to keep in the nightstand or to go along on a road trip into parts unknown. It's doubtful if they'll even shoot the gun more than a half-dozen times to make sure it works.

Availability. Not so many years ago, police trade-in Model 10s could be had in good shape for 90 dollars. I bought one once for 60 bucks out the door. Rough as a barbed-wire fence, but it was slick as glass and an excellent little revolver. I enjoyed it for many years until I gave it to a female aquaintence who had an ex-boyfriend stalker. She still has it. I've seen shops with as many as 2 dozen at a time. Those days are gone. Old Model 10s have started to gain a certain clooectible status, and they're becoming fairly scarce. The same applies to the former com-bloc milsurps. I haven't seen a Makarov or Tokarev in a showcase in a long time...and the ones that do show up from time to time are often dogs. Hi-Points are new. New sells to the average Joe or Jill who only wants a gun.

Such quality milsurp pistols most often require shopping for. Hi-Points, on the other hand, are a phone call away if they're not actually in stock. Most shops keep a couple on hand for buyers such as the ones described above. The non-shooters who just want a gun and either don't have the money for a nicer gun and don't really want to spend a lot even if they do.

The Hi-Point offers one distinct advantage over the better/nicer/prettier guns. They're stashable in places that most of us would be uncomfortable leaving even a well-used Model 10, much less a pistol that we coughed up 700-800 dollars for.

The Hi-Points...like the truly horrible RGs of the 80s...fill a niche and serve a purpose.

Maverick223
July 24, 2010, 12:37 PM
Thanks for the update, Justin. Doesn't appear to be faring all that poorly after all.

:)

Aceoky
July 24, 2010, 02:09 PM
Kudos to Justin for giving it a Fair shake! Many wouldn't be as honest I figure, it's not easy, to admit having one's mind made up already :D

christcorp
July 24, 2010, 02:26 PM
for $200, someone on a budget is far better off with some quality milsurp pistols. makarov, pa-63, cz-82, tokarev, etc.

and that's my problem with hi-points. for about the same cost, or only a bit more, you can get some milsurp pistols that are actually quality guns. were i gun-less and in a severe economic situation, i think i'd eat ramen noodles for a couple weeks if necessary, so that i could afford a milsurp pistol instead.
Harmon; what makes you think that a Hi-Point isn't a "Quality" gun? Is it because the new price on the pistol is about $150? (That's what a new 9mm hi-point costs here at our local gun shops). You say words like "ACTUAL QUALITY GUNS". Where is your proof, or even anecdotal evidence, that Hi-Points aren't "QUALITY GUNS". Like most people with an opinion of Hi-Points, very few have actually owned one, let alone even shot one. Props to justin for going for an Informed opinion, and not one of ignorance.

Roswell_Kid
July 24, 2010, 02:30 PM
I agree with harmon in a sense - I´d go for the military surplus as well.

"In a sense" though, as this is Costa Rica not the US. Hi-Points have an exceptional (and proven) warranty which serves well in the states but is basically useless here.

SwampWolf
July 25, 2010, 08:23 PM
You say words like "ACTUAL QUALITY GUNS". Where is your proof, or even anecdotal evidence, that Hi-Points aren't "QUALITY GUNS".

The term "quality" has a meaning and, in terms of firearms, it usually connotes workmanship, finish and even ergonomics; attributes even the most ardent Hi-Point advocate would concede as being sorely lacking in Hi-Point products. Superior design and utilitarian function are other matters and Justin's findings will help add to either the laudings of Hi-Point aficionados or lay to rest any misgivings Hi-Point detractors might have.
As to why a person might purchase a Hi-Point pistol, it has been argued in this thread that the relatively low price of the Hi-Point is irrelevant. Poppy cock! I don't care how well-heeled financially a potential buyer might be, no sane person is going to stash Les Bauer pistols in boats, tackle boxes, pick-up trucks and garages, the usual province of Hi-Point pistols. No, people buy Hi-Points because they can't afford something more expensive or, more likely, because they want to invest in a cheap, reliable pistol to be stored in environs where they don't have to worry about a more expensive pistol being abused or stolen. Cheap is relevant when considering the merits of the Hi-Point pistol.

1911Tuner
July 25, 2010, 08:40 PM
Just a word to touch on the term "quality" if I may.

If a tool or implement will serve the purpose for which it was intended...its "quality" is good enough for its intended purpose.

If the gun is accurate enough to hit a target at the range that the target is presented...the gun is accurate enough for that target.

The Hi-Point's assumed role is an inexpensive pistol that one can use to defend one's life with. If it will fire when the trigger is pulled, and punch holes in an attacker at 20 feet...it's good enough to save your life...or at least (hopefully) prolong the inevitible shedding of the mortal coil long enough to see your grandchildren come of age.

Given its widespread availability and price...and the fact that it's been on the market for several years...is evidence that it's got something going for it. I'd say that quality is as quality does.

I'm assuredly not a Hi Point fanboy, and I'm not rising to the defense of Hi Point's products...but the fact stands that they seem to keep selling all over the country, and in large numbers. If the guns were consistently bad junk...they'd have long since disappeared from the scene.

But they don't. In the law enforcement profession...that's called a clue.

One of my carry pistols is a 1942 USGI Colt that looks like somethin' the cat dragged in after it laid in the ditch and rotted for a few days. To look at it, you'd think it was junk. I've had more than a few people give a little chuckle at the sight of it...until they shoot it. Judging a car by its paint job can turn out to be a major surprise when the GO light trips

christcorp
July 25, 2010, 09:03 PM
Excellent description Tuner. Quality is defined by the item's ability to perform it's designed task consistently, efficiently, reliably, and dependably. The hi-point does that; thus it has quality. It doesn't need to be made out of gold plated platinum, or every metal part hand ground, in order to be quality. And for what it's worth; one of the main reasons it's so inexpensive, is because they were able to make a 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp with a "Blow-Back" design instead of a "Lock-Breech". Matter of fact, I think Hi-Point is the only one making modern pistols in calibers OVER 380/9mm makarov that are blow-back. But I could be mistaken.

I do agree that finances plays a part. But if all I cared about was the price, I could be a lorin, bryco/jennings, cobra, phoenix, etc... But then, I wouldn't have a "Quality" pistol that I could be confident would fire when I pulled the trigger, when I needed it, and wasn't going to hurt me in the process.

Is the hi-point my favorite gun? Hell no. Then again, my Kimber isn't my favorite gun I own either. My 2 favorites are my 1989 West German SigSauer P220 45acp and my CZ-82 9mm makarov. One values at about $600 used, the other about $200 used. The hi-point does, at Tuner said, it's job. When you pull the trigger, it will go bang and project the bullet. It's pretty accurate at doing it. It isn't going to explode or have the slide come off the frame. And as you said, I don't have to worry about putting my kimber in the toolbox, backpack, boat, or truck. But I wouldn't do these things with a hi-point either if I couldn't trust it. But I do trust it.

Nasty
July 26, 2010, 07:43 AM
lol...Good modding Tuner!

"Quality is as Quality does"


I don't have a Hi-Point, nor have I ever even shot one...but would have no trouble suggesting one for my broke-butt brother in law. At least I'd be confident that it would go *Bang* if he ever needed it to.

harmon rabb
July 26, 2010, 08:08 AM
My 2 favorites are my 1989 West German SigSauer P220 45acp and my CZ-82 9mm makarov.

So, when you can get more of your favorite gun for $200/ea, why bother with a hi-point? For someone in the know, I just can't see getting a hi-point over a milsurp pistol.

1911Tuner
July 26, 2010, 08:42 AM
why bother with a hi-point? For someone in the know, I just can't see getting a hi-point over a milsurp pistol.

Could be that decent milsurps...many people think "USED GUN" when they hear the term...aren't exactly prolific, while new Hi-Points are often found stacked up like cordwood.

Hi-Points aren't really marketed to people in the know concerning guns. They target the segment of the market who simply want a gun to keep around the house and don't want to spend a lot of time in the search. When that type decides to go buy a gun, he/she wants to get it over with and bring it home today.

SwampWolf
July 26, 2010, 01:07 PM
Just a word to touch on the term "quality" if I may.

If a tool or implement will serve the purpose for which it was intended...its "quality" is good enough for its intended purpose.

The term "quality" apparently means different things to different people. My edition of Webster's defines it thusly: "...a degree of excellence; superiority in kind..." If quality simply means nothing more than an implement performing the task it was designed to do, then I suppose one could legitimately describe the Guide Lamp Corporation's Liberty pistol (the less than two bucks, single-shot pistol air-dropped over Europe during WWII to aid the European resistance movement) as being an example of a "quality" firearm.
If we each get to ascribe our own notion as to what a word "means" then I'll stick with the idea that something of real quality implies a degree of excellence when compared to others of its own genre. But that's just my interpretation. We live in America. Others are thankfully free to assign their own definition to a given word-with the caveat that communication between parties might become a little more muddled in the process. :)

Nasty
July 26, 2010, 01:29 PM
Colt Pythons and a few others are quality guns...

All else is price point?

I guess that's the other end of the spectrum.

christcorp
July 26, 2010, 02:49 PM
Harmon: Why get a hi-point when I can shop around for $200+ mil-surplus guns? Well, 1st, mil-surplus guns aren't always as cheap as $200. The Hi-point is $150; it's new; it has a lifetime warranty; and if it's gets beat up, I don't care. My CZ-82 has no warranty; (CZ-USA will work on it, but not for free). My CZ-82 is a piece of military history, I prefer not to chance having it lost in a lake, while camping, beat up, etc...

Swampwolf; you can define the word quality any way you want to. That doesn't change whether or not a particular pistol does what it is suppose to or not. Hell, I can gold-plate a piece of dog shiite, and it's not going to change what it is. Your example of the liberty pistol is totally ignorant; because it did exactly what it was suppose to do. Even if it cost $1000 and every piece was hand made out of platinum. Just because you don't agree or like the purpose of the gun, doesn't mean it isn't "Quality". You are trying to compare all 9mm pistols (Or whatever caliber), and determine which one is "Better". That's like comparing a ford focus, with a cadillac, with a Ford F-250 pickup, with a Lamborghini, with a Harley Davidson Motorcycle. And, on top of that, you're trying to say that one is actually better "QUALITY" than another. Is a Brick house better quality than a wood house? Depends on the finished product and what you want to do with it.

I don't need to spend $100 per box of 20 ammo, because they are gold plating around .999 pure silver; and hand cast and loaded. They are definitely "HIGHER QUALITY", according to "your" definition. But I won't spend $100 on them, because "THAT TYPE" of quality isn't required, needed, or even requested when it comes to ammunition. In other words, some "Quality" is a waste of money. The hi-point is NOT designed to be carried concealed. It IS designed to go bang each and every time. It IS designed to be a reliable and dependable gun. It IS designed to be a Blow-Back design; even though it's a 9mm, 40sw, or 45acp caliber. It IS designed to be inexpensive and easy to use. So, if you are looking for a gun that can do these things, the the hi-point is a "QUALITY" pistol. If you want to spend money on gold plated dog shiite, you can do that too. It all depends on the features you want to spend money on.

I spent MORE money on my SigSauer P220, because I wanted better accuracy, and heirloom that would last 100+ years. I got what I paid for. With the hi-point, I wanted a pistol that at 20-30 feet, would shoot the size of a baseball in rapid fire of 3 shots. I wanted a gun that I could throw in a trunk, toolbox, backpack, etc... and not care if it got scratched, dinged, etc... The hi-point does all of these things. It is quality. And I will also pay more for making a dependable pistol that is small and will fit in my pocket.

But there will always be some people that bought the B.S. about "You get what you pay for". No you don't. You get what they SOLD you, and made you believe you NEEDED all the extra features and "QUALITY" that they sold you. AND, once you've bought it, and realized that it doesn't really function that much better than the less expensive model, most people will rationalize the money they spent on this item, and they will use words like "Quality" to defend their position. Truth is; when living in the city, and rarely going outside of the city; a ford focus is BETTER QUALITY than the Ferrari. But you'll never get the Ferrari owner to admit that. Not when they spent $250,000, while the ford focus owner spent about $15,000. On the other hand, a Ford F-250 has BETTER QUALITY than a Ferrari if you are going to the woods to pick up some firewood.

1911Tuner
July 26, 2010, 03:21 PM
Okay Swamp Wolf...Let's address "A degree of excellence" then.

Two pistols on a table. One is a semi-custom and it's beautiful. It's obvious that a high degree of care has been used in its fit and finish. It sold for over 2,000 dollars. Every square inch screams quality.

The one beside it looks good, but also obvious is that it's an entry level offering that may be okay for launching bullets at a target...and it just lacks that special "something." It's a gun, and that's about all you can say for it.

On the range, the high-end pistol continually chokes on good quality ammunition while the one priced for common beater duty never misses a beat with whatever is thrown at it.

The accuracy of the semi-custom is good, but really nothing special...and it isn't much better in that regard than the beater, if any...and there is no real practical difference.

In the end...which is the better gun?

Again...Quality is as quality does.

Am I saying that Hi-Point makes a high quality pistol? Not really...but they work. There is the occasional exception, of course...but that can be found in anything, including full-house custom pistols. Would I buy one if I was in the market for a functional self-defense tool that won't compromise next month's food budget? Sure would.

For what it's worth, I used to sneer and scoff at Hi Points, too...until I had a chance to wring a few of'em out. The felt recoil report is accurate, by the way. It's kinda weird, but it can be accommodated with a little use.

christcorp
July 26, 2010, 04:01 PM
All these semantics. Look; it's a freakin gun!!! It's not a masterpiece painting. it's not a sculpture. Hell, it's not even a car that you're trying to impress the neighbors with. It's a damn gun. An item, by it's very nature, is suppose to NEVER BE SEEN by anyone, until the SHTF. Adequate, excellent, quality, etc....

That's like saying a girl is "Sort of pregnant". Sorry, but there's no such thing. She Is..... or She Isn't...... When you buy a gun, you need to be able describe what you want a gun to do. You need to be able to describe how the gun should feel. And you need to describe how you want to carry or stow the pistol. After that, you find the one you like that meets all your requirements.

Anyone who says they won't buy because of the way it feels, the way it shoots, the weight of it, the single action or striker fire design of it, the features/lack of on it, or even the LOOKS of it; I can totally respect that. Anyone who says they won't buy a hi-point because it's NOT quality, or they'd rather SAVE MORE MONEY for a "BETTER" gun; is a complete idiot. It's a damn gun. Will it do what you want it to? Will it do it reliably, consistently, and dependably? Is it comfortable holding and shooting. Do you like the way it feels? If yes to all these, then consider the hi-point as a possible choice. If it won't do what you want it to do, then don't buy one. If you're not considering it because of the name or price, then you're ignorant. No place in an educated debate. of course, you could always use the 2 traditional "Glock Bail Out" excuses. 1) Doesn't hold 15-18 rounds in the magazine, and that's important. or 2) Police don't use Hi-Point, therefor I shouldn't because if they were good, the police would use them. You can't argue these people. They also believe that a law enforcement officer and a civilian are at the same risk levels and should be armed equally.

mcdonl
July 26, 2010, 04:07 PM
christcorp, re: the above statement... I would say that #2 is only a result of #1... just my opinion.

SwampWolf
July 26, 2010, 05:36 PM
Swampwolf; you can define the word quality any way you want to. That doesn't change whether or not a particular pistol does what it is suppose to or not. Hell, I can gold-plate a piece of dog shiite, and it's not going to change what it is. Your example of the liberty pistol is totally ignorant; because it did exactly what it was suppose to do.

I didn't cite my definition of "quality", I referenced Webster's take on it and merely agreed with said interpretation. How well a particular implement works is a reflection on its utility. How said implement ranks with its companions in terms of fit, finish and workmanship is a testimony to its quality or lack thereof. My example of the Liberty pistol is completely apropos with respect to the subject at hand. It did what it was supposed to do, which made it a viable "tool". If you compare it with a better finished, well-made pistol, most would agree that it is not of the same quality-no matter how you try to spin semantics.

As an aside, I, for one, am getting a little weary of the way you routinely throw the word "ignorant" around. Review your posts since the beginning of this year and even you might be surprised at how many times you have used the word to belittle other people's opinions. You call people ignorant enough and,well, it makes you appear a little...

Lest folks think I'm disparaging the merits of the Hi-Point pistol unfairly, a search of my posts (though it could have been done at The Firing Line site) will lead you to believe otherwise. I recounted the fact that a few years ago, my elderly parents (who reside in a high crime, urban area neighborhood) were robbed at gunpoint in their own home. Mainly because I have thirty years of le experience and shoot regulary (I just returned from six days at the Camp Perry pistol matches last week) my father, who has zero interest in any kind of firearm, sought my advice as to what would be a good self-defense pistol. He wanted a reliable gun that "didn't cost much." I've had a limited but good experience with Hi-Points in the past and had no reservations recommending one for him for his single dimension purpose.

We traveled to the nearest gun store where he purchased one, along with some hardball ammunition (please, let's not go down that road at this time :)) and hearing and eye protection for him. From there, we went to the range where I went over the basic safety rules with him and we became familiar with the pistol's nomenclature and handling procedures. We then did some preliminary shooting, just to get a "feel" for the recoil and mode of reloading. Since that afternoon, we have went to the range on a fairly regular basis thereafter and, before long, he became a fairly proficient shot-at least at ranges up to ten yards or so.

The reason I relate this bit of my history is to make the point that I am assuredly not ignorant of the Hi-Point's important and valuable "niche" in the world of self-defense. And though I trust the pistol implicitly with the lives of my parents, in my way of thinking (and that isn't going to change anytime soon), merely because a pistol works the way it should doesn't mean it is a quality product when you compare it with other handguns.

SwampWolf
July 26, 2010, 05:57 PM
In the end...which is the better gun?

Again...Quality is as quality does.

Am I saying that Hi-Point makes a high quality pistol? Not really...but they work.

So you think there's a difference between quality and high quality? Does that imply that the higher quality gun does its job better than one of "regular" quality?
Quality stands on its own merits. I can discern a quality blue job to one that is mediocre-even though both pistols perform their respective tasks equally well. When compared to its peers, if one firearm of a given ilk is demonstrably superior to the others in terms of fit, finish, material and workmanship, it,imo, is of a higher quality.
Enough for me on this subject. I've had my say and I think I understand how my opinion differs from some others. One exciting byproduct from the discussion is that I never knew I owned so many "quality" toothpicks, soda straws and paper weights! Quality is as quality does. :)

akadave
July 26, 2010, 06:50 PM
I saw the title of the post and thought someone was actually doing something correct with a Hi-Point...throwing it down...onto the ground. God what hideous crap those things are.

And heck, you can kill a guy reliably with a butterknife if you can get them to stand stilll...lol!

Col. Plink
July 26, 2010, 07:33 PM
Sorry, akadave, saying it don't make it so.

On a quality/price ratio, my HiPoints can't be beat but I have something else in mind.

My .40 carbine/pistol combo is on sale here at THR!

mcdonl
July 26, 2010, 07:57 PM
I saw the title of the post and thought someone was actually doing something correct with a Hi-Point...throwing it down...onto the ground. God what hideous crap those things are.

Look around... opinions as radical and unfounded as yours are becoming the minority around gun owners who look beyond the basic appearances of guns and see how they function. Read the thread, read the results.

Saying things like you said above are on the same level as someone who says 1911's are old, antiquated junk... or like the people who call glocks Tupperware and not worth a jello mold. Your argument is played out, and getting debunked by the excellent work in this thread by people who actually know what they are talking about and are testing the guns side by side with guns that are traditionally consider quality guns.

Hammerhead6814
July 26, 2010, 08:18 PM
That's some impressive shooting Justin.

HOOSIER70
July 26, 2010, 08:26 PM
Yep subscribed too

David E
July 26, 2010, 10:18 PM
the REAL question is.........You have $200......

Would you buy a NEW Hi-Point? Or a used, but not abused, S&W Model 10? Or a Ruger P-89 / P-95 ?

Maverick223
July 26, 2010, 10:36 PM
This has become a pissing match, which, IMO, is detracting from the main purpose of the thread (to see how it performs). Why don't we keep our feelings about the Hi-Point pistol to ourselves and just stick to the facts...at least until all of the information is presented in this thread. Then we can argue the merits and detriments of the platform.

:)

christcorp
July 27, 2010, 12:04 AM
Swamp; you want to use a literal definition of "Quality"; yet you want to give the word more importance than it deserves. If that was the case, then any all metal gun would be "Better Quality" than any Glock or other Plastic gun. After all, isn't metal a better QUALITY material than plastic? Well, I guess that depends on what you're using the material for. A METAL cooking pot is better quality than a plastic cooking pot. It transfers heat better when cooking. Ooops; what if you're using a microwave over? Then, I guess the plastic pot is better quality than the metal pot.

You have taken an overused word, such as quality, and you have in fact given it your own association. You may believe that you haven't redefined it, but you have. Quality can only be defined, per Webster, once you have determined an item's purpose and abilities. Again, you can say that a $250,000 Ferrari is better quality than a Ford Focus; but if you live in Manhattan and never drive outside of the city, the "ADDITIONAL" quality of the Ferrari is totally irrelevant. The additional quality of steel is irrelevant in a SigSauer compared to a Glock.

So, just to make sure we're on the same page here, what "Quality" issues of the Hi-Point make the gun less effective; less reliable; less dependable; or less functional. If you want to say you glock, S&W, Springer, etc... feels better; is easier to shoot; etc... then there's nothing wrong with that. But that's not a "Quality" issue. And being your hooked on definitions out of the dictionary, you should look up ignorant. It simply means uniformed, unaware, or lacking knowledge. Well, you're trying to compare apples with pot roast and coming up with Potato Salad. Quality is totally irrelevant unless it has some bearing on an items performance.

I will say however, that if a person says that they want an all metal gun, because the quality lends itself to "Craftsmanship" and the gun will endure the test of time; and it can be passed down as an heirloom; that makes total sense. And if you want to say that the lower quality of a hi-point, doesn't lend it to being the type of gun that can fire 50,000 rounds through it, and be passed down to 3-4 generations, then I'll buy that. Other than that, I need to know what "Quality" issues make the hi-point a less desirable or functional weapon. Personally, I think they're heavy, ugly, and bulky; and they suck as a concealed carry weapon. But functionally, they are every bit as reliable as any other gun that I have. Including my S&W, SigSauer, Kimber, and Springer. So, use the word "Quality" if you wish; but the word has to have meaning and significance. Meaning and definition are not the same thing.

SwampWolf
July 27, 2010, 01:38 AM
Meaning and definition are not the same thing.

Really?

And being your hooked on definitions out of the dictionary, you should look up ignorant. It simply means uniformed, unaware, or lacking knowledge.

I see what you mean now.

evan price
July 27, 2010, 02:48 AM
@ David E:

No, the REAL question is- You have $120; what do you buy? A used Hipoint C9 for $99, or a Lorcin 380 for $99?

Quality is honestly an intangible. What one person sees as quality may be undesireable in others.

Some folks see a Rolls-Royce with 16 coats of individually hand-rubbed lacquer and clear coat as quality. Other folks see a 1950's retro-rat-rod with patina and a faded "Joe's Garage" sign painted on the side of the door as quality.

First and foremost, a gun needs to be a gun.
That means it needs to reliably and accurately propel a projectile at what I point it at.

Everything else is lipstick and mascara.

Does a well-cared-for and -broken-in Smith & Wesson pinned & recessed Model 66 have a better feel and smoother action than a HiPoint? Does a Glock have a reputation for being indestructable? Sure.

But when you are playing in the bargain basement, the first rule is to be what you need it to be- a gun. That is a device to propel projectiles at what it is pointed at, with reliability and accuracy to suit the need.

At self-defense distances, that's pretty easy. For a nightstand or truck gun that isn't fired thousands of rounds, that's not hard either.


That said- in my age I have realized that life is too short to drink crappy beer. With my resources and experiences I choose things with a higher perceived quality- to me. I like Colt and S&W revolvers and Sig semi-autos. I don't own a HiPoint any more. It got passed on to someone who needed it.

mcdonl
July 27, 2010, 06:42 AM
If you consider the amount of people who would need to purchase a C9 because of financial constraints, and you look at the number of available used, but not abused S&W Model 10' or Ruger P-89/P-95's you will see that it is not really a viable solution. If I want a 9mm semiauto handgun today, or even this week and I have $200 I have pretty much one option. Sure, I could get extremely lucky and find a deal on an old millsurp... first off, it would have to be local... the $200 milsurp on gunbroker is going to end up costing 1 or 2 ffl fees ($30-$50), plus shipping... another $25... and that is if I can find one. So now that gun which you could barely afford before is $275, and it is used and could break any day and need to be repaired at a high cost.

I can walk into Cabelas today and spend $149 plus tax and walk out the door with a brand new 9mm hi-point in Scarborough Maine that has a lifetime warrenty. This is why the gun is so popular.

1911Tuner
July 27, 2010, 07:18 AM
David...I'd buy the Model 10. I have an affinity for Model 10s and all K-frame Smith & Wesson M&P revolvers. No... weakness is probably a better term...but I'm a gun man. Again...the points aren't about me. They're about Joe Schmo who wants a functional autopistol for a small cash outlay. The guy who isn't into guns and wouldn't know a Smith & Wesson Registered Magnum if one fell on his head.

Maverick, I agree. It's getting to that point, and I'll try one more time to get it back on track.

Christcorp and Swamp...Defining quality isn't quite as cut and dried as some would like for it to be...from tableware to automobiles to guns. If it works, and serves an individual's purpose...the quality is good enough for its intended purpose. Beautiful finishes and hand-fitting are nice attributes, but for a working gun...both are unnecessary as long as the gun is functional. Such things that seem to define quality are also expensive...and the whole reason for the Hi Point's existence is to provide a functional, reliable pistol at a price that nearly everybody can afford or justify.

The old Volkswagen Beetle and the Porsche 911 offers a perfect example of quality versus affordability. In the 60s, the Beetle sold for a whopping 1500 bucks, and they were everywhere. Spartan little cars that were the butt of many jokes, even among its owners. All of them would have preferred to own the Porsche...but not all of them could afford one, or justify buying one...just for transportation from A to B.

shockwave
July 27, 2010, 08:37 AM
If you haven't seen him before, watch a few minutes of comedian Demetri Martin here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOaVRerZLY). He uses flip charts quite humorously, illustrating qualities of things in unusual ways. Similarly, in this discussion of Hi-Points, there is confusion over the word "quality" and the term "qualities." To channel Demetri a bit...

Compared to a Dan Wesson Commander, a Hi-Point C-9 is a low-quality firearm.

Compared to a salami sandwich, the C-9 is a high-quality firearm.

But if your hungry, both the Wesson and the C-9 are low-quality sandwiches.

So go back to those flip-charts again. What "quality" means and what determines its extent is fully a matter of the labels you're applying to the x- and y-axes. If "price vs. performance" is your criteria, then instead of talking about relative quality, it's better to just talk about price vs. performance.

In a very general sense, however, as most people use the word quality, e.g., "you can tell that this is a quality dress shirt," they seem to be referring to a kind of gestalt, the way that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It's a kind of coming-together of a number of things to create something impressive and appealing. Normally, these would include some combination of material, craftsmanship, aesthetics, and function.

From having examined a C-9 in person, I've found that both material and aesthetics are so low in this weapon that no amount of craftsmanship and function could overcome these drawbacks to enable one to say that the Hi-Point is a "quality" firearm. The best assessment possible, should the gun perform well at the range, is to say, "It's cheap and ugly, but it works."

mcdonl
July 27, 2010, 09:48 AM
Shockwave... you last sentance summed it up well... IF... you are into how a gun looks. Personally, I could care less... mine get tossed around, beat to crap and used in hard environments... I do not display them, look at the in awe or admire them other that when the go bang.

I know that in a forum such as this, with true gun enthousiast I am an athiest... but thats ok. Guys and gals like me like Hi-Points because they do what we purchase them to do, and you know what? Mine is in my range box right now, uncleaned from my last range visit to the sandpit and the next time I see it will be to shoot it again.

To people like me... the best assesment if the gun performs well at the range (Mine does...) is to say "It's cheap and it works" - No need to qualify it's looks as it is a stupid gun, not a work of art... in this beholders eyes...

christcorp
July 27, 2010, 10:33 AM
If people threw looks, feel, weight, ergonomics, size, etc... all out the window; and we only discussed FUNCTIONALITY; more people would realize what the hi-point has to offer. And that you aren't risking your life or compromising your family's, by having a hi-point. Unfortunately, there will still be too many people who look at guns MORE than a tool to help you defend your life with. Some see the sport in guns; some the art; and some the intrinsic potential value as an heirloom. For these people, functionality isn't their main concern. And maybe that's the problem. One group looks at the hi-point as a very reliable, dependable, and capable firearm that is a great self defense tool. Others, concentrate on the feel and looks of it.

akadave
July 27, 2010, 11:58 AM
@ David E:

No, the REAL question is- You have $120; what do you buy? A used Hipoint C9 for $99, or a Lorcin 380 for $99?

Quality is honestly an intangible. What one person sees as quality may be undesireable in others.

Some folks see a Rolls-Royce with 16 coats of individually hand-rubbed lacquer and clear coat as quality. Other folks see a 1950's retro-rat-rod with patina and a faded "Joe's Garage" sign painted on the side of the door as quality.

First and foremost, a gun needs to be a gun.
That means it needs to reliably and accurately propel a projectile at what I point it at.

Everything else is lipstick and mascara.

Does a well-cared-for and -broken-in Smith & Wesson pinned & recessed Model 66 have a better feel and smoother action than a HiPoint? Does a Glock have a reputation for being indestructable? Sure.

But when you are playing in the bargain basement, the first rule is to be what you need it to be- a gun. That is a device to propel projectiles at what it is pointed at, with reliability and accuracy to suit the need.

At self-defense distances, that's pretty easy. For a nightstand or truck gun that isn't fired thousands of rounds, that's not hard either.


That said- in my age I have realized that life is too short to drink crappy beer. With my resources and experiences I choose things with a higher perceived quality- to me. I like Colt and S&W revolvers and Sig semi-autos. I don't own a HiPoint any more. It got passed on to someone who needed it.
You have $120, you save another couple hundred and buy something you can stake your life on. Im a firm believe of "You get what you pay for". Its never let me down.

David E
July 27, 2010, 12:01 PM
David E:

No, the REAL question is- You have $120; what do you buy? A used Hipoint C9 for $99, or a Lorcin 380 for $99?

I'd buy a used Charter Arms Undercover .38 for $85 or a very old S&W M&P for $110 (both of which I did)

Look, I agree and understand that Hi-Points have their place. It's just funny watching christcorp go into conniptions defending them beyond that. :neener:

Aceoky
July 27, 2010, 12:12 PM
You have $120, you save another couple hundred and buy something you can stake your life on. Im a firm believe of "You get what you pay for". Its never let me down.

Because there is NO chance while you're saving for however many months (or years possibly) some BG would try to harm you or your family "right"??? It's quite apparent the Hi Points won't win any beauty contests, but they flat out work, better to "stake your life" on a FUNCTIONAL NEW gun with a lifetime warranty than to NOT have a gun while "you save up a couple hundred more $" IMO

Now IF you already have a SD/HD gun and have the luxury to "save up for a better LOOKING gun" that's all well and good; but "get what you pay for" in a strictly HD/SD situation Looks etc. don't have one thing to do with anything important anyway- the #1 rule of being engaged in a gun fight is to have/bring a gun...

Hi Points do exactly what a GOOD defensive pistol should do, they go bang when you pull the trigger and send hot lead downrange where aimed, so sometimes you get FAR MORE than you pay for when you compare utility and function with LOOKS and "bragging potential" :)

akadave
July 27, 2010, 12:25 PM
Because there is NO chance while you're saving for however many months (or years possibly) some BG would try to harm you or your family "right"??? It's quite apparent the Hi Points won't win any beauty contests, but they flat out work, better to "stake your life" on a FUNCTIONAL NEW gun with a lifetime warranty than to NOT have a gun while "you save up a couple hundred more $" IMO

Now IF you already have a SD/HD gun and have the luxury to "save up for a better LOOKING gun" that's all well and good; but "get what you pay for" in a strictly HD/SD situation Looks etc. don't have one thing to do with anything important anyway- the #1 rule of being engaged in a gun fight is to have/bring a gun...

Hi Points do exactly what a GOOD defensive pistol should do, they go bang when you pull the trigger and send hot lead downrange where aimed, so sometimes you get FAR MORE than you pay for when you compare utility and function with LOOKS and "bragging potential" :)
Im not talking about looks. None of todays "Black plastic" pistols are pretty by most standards. Many have been tested very thoroughly in inhospitable environments, while filled with mud, wet, dry, dirty, frozen etc. While Im sure a person would never find themselves in circumstances with a gun full of mud, neither will the average person find themselves in a situation where they are in a gun fight for their lives. Its nice to be prepared as fully as humanly possible. So I think careful consideration about the tool that you are going to stake your life on is warranted by other factors than price. You have to be able to use it effectively. You have to train with it. A cheap gun in your night stand is BS is you have hardly put a box or rounds through it or have not been trained to use a handgun. I feel a miniumum of a 1,000 rounds per year at a range, a real range not some sand pit shooting at refigerators is a must. So buy two Hi-Points, one to shoot to death and the other to have in your night stand or whatever. Or buy a more durable piece that you can put many thousands of rounds through and become intimately familiar with and feel absolutely confident that you can get the job done with it.

Aceoky
July 27, 2010, 12:38 PM
That's all nice in "theory" but in reality MOST folks won't do that; HERE we are almost all "certified gun nuts" , so perhaps it hard for most to realize those who are not in the same "boat" as it were. The Average Joe Shmo (thanks Tuner) :) is going to go out buy an affordable new gun with warranty (WHY Hi Points sell so very well) perhaps two boxes of WWB or similar, take it out and shoot it a bit to get used to the recoil and get some idea of where he/she can hit with it and call it "good".

And still in the event of a home invasion they're MUCH better off than with scream or even a baseball bat (which calls for getting closer to the trouble) and possibly against a well armed and perhaps intoxicated criminal.

The thing that "gets me" is that some seem to make the "point" of "staking their lives on something they can count on" even though the Hi Points fit that criteria as much as ANY other pistol IMO,(there is Zero evidence that some USED/abused possibly Mil Surp pistol would be any more dependable or reliable at all, and most average folks won't risk that over a NEW gun with lifetime unconditional warranty- why would they?) they go bang when they're supposed to , hit where aimed and the rest is matter of "taste" IMHO and it's far better in my humble view to have a Hi Point WHEN you need a gun than to have half the $$ saved for a "better gun" and have nothing!

ohwell
July 27, 2010, 01:22 PM
Wow crazy thread! If all you can afford is 120 and it will take you months to save a little more buy nothing, you wont be able to afford to practice with it enough to become proficient in its use. Otherwise just buy what you like.

mcdonl
July 27, 2010, 01:26 PM
Wow crazy thread! If all you can afford is 120 and it will take you months to save a little more buy nothing, you wont be able to afford to practice with it enough to become proficient in its use. Otherwise just buy what you like.

That is pretty elitist... so, someone who is on a limited budget... needs to relocate to a bad area with higher crime, lost his high paying job and needs to work two minimum wage jobs to feed his family should not even be able to own a firearm? Wow, thats about as anti as I have ever heard...

Sorry sir, you do not belong to a gun club, shoot 1000+ rounds a year to be "proficient", have a 5.11 vest and a $500 pistol you do not have the right to own a gun.

This thread, and the gun snobs are making me mad now. Good luck.

Thanks again for doing the test. Much appreciated, although it is falling on deaf ears I am afraid.

akadave
July 27, 2010, 01:32 PM
Its a choice to not practice with your fireararm, a stupid one, plain and simple. "Theory" is a cop out. I have an alarm system in my house. Actually less expensive than the average gun. That is going to be a better deterrant to a "Smash and grab" home entry (98% or home entry incidents) than a gun in your night stand that you never touch. Its a responsibility to learn how to use a gun. Its not a "better than nuthin" choice. There is no halfassed, otherwise you put yourself and more importantly, others at risk. So what I gather from your argument is that the Hi-Point is essentially a noise maker as a deterrant. Finally, when you need a gun...know how to use it...if not for your sake, for mine.

Cheapest and lowest effort is not good enough. All you need to do is take a real defensive firearm course from a well known organization and it will open your eyes to the responsibility of CCW or home defense.

1911Tuner
July 27, 2010, 02:17 PM
Wow crazy thread! If all you can afford is 120 and it will take you months to save a little more buy nothing, you wont be able to afford to practice with it enough to become proficient in its use. Otherwise just buy what you like.

It is gettin' a little crazy. As hard as it is for gun people to grasp...an amazing number of people go buy a gun and a box of ammunition...take it home and put it in a nightstand...and never fire it. They're not into guns, but they want one around for an emergency. Beyond that, they just aren't interested in guns.

A little over five years ago, I bought a pre-64 Winchester Model 94 from the brother of a man who'd died. The deceased was a collector, but not a shooter. The rifle came with an old box of .32 Special ammunition with two rounds missing. The seller remarked that those two rounds were probably all that had ever been shot in the rifle. Close examination indicated that his assumption was correct.

Another time, I bought a commercial Colt Government Model from a woman who said it belonged to her father. She found it in her mother's attic many months after she died. It was in the original box...DOB was 1958. The gun appeared to be unfired. The seller confirmed my assessment, stating: "Daddy bought guns sometimes, but I never remember him actually shooting any of them."

If it's not pretty, it doesn't matter. If it doesn't have a nice trigger...it doesn't matter. If it's too heavy and awkward to carry...it doesn't matter because they don't plan on carrying it. If it won't cut the X ring out of a target at 25 paces...they don't care because they don't plan on competing with it. If they can't afford enough ammunition to become proficient with it...it doesn't matter because they don't plan to shoot it. They didn't buy it to shoot or carry or show off. They bought it to have it on hand in the unlikely event of an intruder.

The gun isn't an extension of their personality. It's a tool that goes bang that they can use to ward off an attacker...period.

Mastiff
July 27, 2010, 02:25 PM
I always get a laugh out of those "You get what you pay for" guys. I've outshot guys with $1500 pistols with my Norinco Model 213 Tok. A fair number of them got really PO'd. I paid $89 for the Tok back in 1992. If you "Get what you pay for", why weren't they cleaning my clock instead of the other way around?
I didn't have a single failure to feed or extract in over 55,000 rounds with that Tok. I think "Quality" isn't the term to use. Reliable and accurate are. I could have paid $1500 for a full house 1911, but what is the point?
Toks are very reliable and accurate pistols, and are built like brick outhouses. I have converted a spare 9mm barrel and am now shooting 9x23 Winchester through my $189 Yugo M-57 Tok. It is the ballistic equivalent of the 357 Magnum. You get more rounds, faster reloads, better concealment, less muzzle blast, and less recoil. Try finding another pistol that can fire that round for a total investment of $240. For another $35, you can shoot 9x19 Luger through the pistol. You get what you pay for? ROTFLMAO.
I can't shoot a Hi-Point. My hands are way too small. But I applaud them for producing a reliable and accurate inexpensive pistol, and standing behind them forever.

Aceoky
July 27, 2010, 02:41 PM
As hard as it is for gun people to grasp...an amazing number of people go buy a gun and a box of ammunition...take it home and put it in a nightstand...and never fire it. They're not into guns, but they want one around for an emergency. Beyond that, they just aren't interested in guns.

Exactly!

AkaDave I can agree to disagree; it's NOT a "cop out" it IS the reality of things, and because "you say" that one who doesn't practice as much as you think they should doesn't make it so, most won't and neither will they take a defensive handgun course for that matter...

BTW when "I" need a gun I'm quite sure I already know how to use one, (or several for that matter- but again I'm a gun nut MOST aren't and most Hi Point owners aren't either- though who knows they could be later on)and I'd suspect that the Hi Point owner's have enough grasp to hit an intruder at <7 yards as well! As for YOUR "safety" WHY on Earth would YOU be in someone's home when they're being involved in a home invasion?

1911Tuner
July 27, 2010, 02:43 PM
Mastiff...yep.

To put it in a little different perspective...

Why would the man buy a Model 10 when there's a beautiful Model 19 laying beside it?
The latter is obviously of higher quality. I mean, after all...it's prettier. Right?

According to many here, Smith & Wesson shouldn't have sold more than a couple hundred Model 10s a year in the private sector...but the Model 10 probably outsold all the other Smith revolvers combined without even counting police contracts. There were a couple times in their history that they may have gone under had it not been for the Model 10.

I'd be afraid to estimate how many unfired or seldom fired Model 10s there are...laying forgotten in the bottom of a cedar chest, or the top of a wardrobe or tucked under old and equally forgotten clothes in the back of an armoire.

Aceoky
July 27, 2010, 02:45 PM
Sorry I guess I'm getting off topic, I"m VERY glad the test is being done and again Kudos to Justin for doing it fairly and trying to not be biased!

It "irks me" a bit when someone "thinks" the average citizen is better off NOT being armed than to have a functional NEW Hi Point , seems a bit arrogant and "elitist" to me to tell folks if they can't afford an "X$" firearm they shouldn't be armed at all...... FWIW there are folks who own more high $$ weapons who also own Hi Points for other intended purposes which they'd not use their Berrettas , Colts etc. for (truck, boat, garage etc.) so to "classify" ALL folks who own Hi Points as not knowing how to use a gun is a bit "reaching " IMHO

akadave
July 27, 2010, 03:04 PM
Exactly!

AkaDave I can agree to disagree; it's NOT a "cop out" it IS the reality of things, and because "you say" that one who doesn't practice as much as you think they should doesn't make it so, most won't and neither will they take a defensive handgun course for that matter...

BTW when "I" need a gun I'm quite sure I already know how to use one, (or several for that matter- but again I'm a gun nut MOST aren't and most Hi Point owners aren't either- though who knows they could be later on)and I'd suspect that the Hi Point owner's have enough grasp to hit an intruder at <7 yards as well! As for YOUR "safety" WHY on Earth would YOU be in someone's home when they're being involved in a home invasion?
Im a gun nut too. But Im more of a collector. I have also done some wildcatting and some ballistic testing etc. I have never done much of the important stuff that would better prepare me for an actual encounter. I have fairly recently started that process but I have always felt that for safety sake you should practice with your chosen protection weapon. If you dont, its tantamount to throwing the keys to a 14 year old and telling them to drive a vehicle, no instruction etc. My connection to the Hi-Point here is that I would not feel that the Hi-Point will be a long term investment if you shoot it as much as one should. Does it go bang out of the box? Yes, but how many rounds is it good for? Ive always seen "Bangers" at the range with Hi-Points, shooting them sideways, stuffing them in the front of their pants and strutting around. Generally making and ass of themselves and not doing anything for the image of the shooting public, which is always under scrutiny.

I will await the "Gauntlet" test with great interest.

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 27, 2010, 03:07 PM
My handgun is a FM90 Argentinian Hi Power, does that mean that i'm gonna shoot horrible with it and its a complete POS vs. the pretty Browning MKIII Hi Powers? Granted I am gonna upgrade to a Browning or FN one of these days but thats because of my interest in guns. If I didn't care I would probably shove rounds in the mag and leave beside and be fine with it for life.

A recent event where a man shot another in the police parking lot, it said that he bought that gun the same day yet the first time firing it he killed the other man without any training.

akadave
July 27, 2010, 03:08 PM
Sorry I guess I'm getting off topic, I"m VERY glad the test is being done and again Kudos to Justin for doing it fairly and trying to not be biased!

It "irks me" a bit when someone "thinks" the average citizen is better off NOT being armed than to have a functional NEW Hi Point , seems a bit arrogant and "elitist" to me to tell folks if they can't afford an "X$" firearm they shouldn't be armed at all...... FWIW there are folks who own more high $$ weapons who also own Hi Points for other intended purposes which they'd not use their Berrettas , Colts etc. for (truck, boat, garage etc.) so to "classify" ALL folks who own Hi Points as not knowing how to use a gun is a bit "reaching " IMHO
Its equally irksome that some people buy something for cheap just to have it and never take the next step in the responsibility of having a firearm, learning to use it well. A gun is not a stereo or other durable good, its in its own category. Further, Im not faulting a person for buying a weapon that doesnt cost a lot, just a weapon that is made like it doesnt cost a lot and then not learning to use it. Because if its just cost as a consideration, it will never be fired more than likely...because ammo is not cheap.


I just checked the Hi-Point site. The frame and slides are made of Zinc. The barrels are steel....oh my...

ohwell
July 27, 2010, 03:08 PM
My point was not why he was buying it I have pre 64 Winchesters locked up here also that have hardley been fired in years I take them out very seldom. My point is if he cant afford to feed it if its intent is for home defense maybe he shouldnt. I can afford the guns I have I can also afford to shoot them. The guns meant for home defense should be shot enough to be proficient with them. The guns bought for looking at dont have to be shot at all. Heck maybe he wants that highpoint to show off its looks I dont know but the purpose of the firearm and ability should be considered.

1911Tuner
July 27, 2010, 03:09 PM
Ace, it kinda moved away from the essence of the topic when the screams over the questionable quality started. Many people...and I was guilty of it at one time...look at a Hi Point and immediately start cracking jokes. Yeah, it's ugly, and it's not a "nice" gun by any stretch of the term. No argument there. If the Hi-Point rep is reading this...Your pistols are ugly!

Like myself...a good many of those jokes and snarks came from people who'd never had one in their hands. The "Judging of a Book by its Cover" syndrome. Guilty!

To those, I say...Try one. You might be surprised at how well it does. I did...and I was, and while a Hi Point isn't on my short list of guns to buy, it's not because the gun is useless junk. My money is slated to go for older Smith & Wesson revolvers, and...hopefully...a Ham Bowen New Vaquero .41 Magnum conversion before I get too old to enjoy it.

christcorp
July 27, 2010, 03:18 PM
We're just passing time. Waiting for Justin to come back and give his next set of opinions.

Ronsch
July 27, 2010, 03:25 PM
Justin,

I admire what you are doing, however, it is still an "apples and oranges" comparison. You are running the Hi-Point against a (what appears to be) a tuned, comped-up (relatively speaking) firearm.

New-to-new, you may want to use a price-point instead. I am stressing "new" in this along with the comparable price-point. I do not want to get into the whole "it's new to me argument" because that would go down the whole a "used" Glock (or Beretta, Sig, or CZ) is "new" to me if I just bought it...argument.

Seems like the Hi-Point is doing what it was designed to do. Hit a target, goes bang, and functions to specifications.

Aceoky
July 27, 2010, 03:26 PM
My point is if he cant afford to feed it if its intent is for home defense maybe he shouldnt. I can afford the guns I have I can also afford to shoot them.

Maybe he should, that's not my call to tell another adult what they "should own" or not own as far as defending their families, homes etc. Nor is it "my call" to try to tell them "how much shooting is enough", IF they're confident and comfortable, that is fine by me! But then again I don't just assume because one is on a tight budget they're a fool either :)

So the essence of your stance is, it's better to not be armed and save up for a more expensive weapon, rather than to buy the Hi Point and put the other $$$ toward "feeding it" and practice ......OR?

1911Tuner, I've been guilty of the "book by it's cover" myself in the past, however I do realize there are more folks who don't care about looks, size, weight, or anything other than does it work as intended, the answer is yes it does and IF that is what some gun owner (new or otherwise) is looking for I'm all for them and their right to do so :)

ohwell
July 27, 2010, 07:22 PM
Thats not the essence of my stance at all I dont care if the guy is a millionaire if he wants a highpoint thats great and I have no problem with it at all. The point I am making is using it for something like self defense takes some practice. Now if he cant afford to practice and get acclimated to that gun no matter if its a highpoint or if its a Kimber its less safe for him and the people around him than it would be if he can afford to shoot and master that weapon.

1911Tuner
July 27, 2010, 07:30 PM
Now if he cant afford to practice and get acclimated to that gun no matter if its a highpoint or if its a Kimber its less safe for him and the people around him than it would be if he can afford to shoot and master that weapon

While I'm in complete agreement, that's a point which bothers some people not in the least. You're still applying a gun-savvy mindset to an unsavvy gun buyer. That's like expecting a dog use a human thought process when faced with a situation. They just don't, and the fact that we can't understand it doesn't change it.

dwhite
July 27, 2010, 08:22 PM
Once again it's proven.

Any thread that extends more than 2 pages has descended into the swamp of personal egotistical CRAP! I'm done with this one.

All the Best,
D. White

armoredman
July 27, 2010, 09:37 PM
I'd be afraid to estimate how many unfired or seldom fired Model 10s there are...laying forgotten in the bottom of a cedar chest, or the top of a wardrobe or tucked under old and equally forgotten clothes in the back of an armoire.
I'd be happy to find one or three of those!

I am actually considering getting a HiPoint if I can find one cheap enough locally - the gun shop I went in to wanted $250. If I can get one for $100 or so, I'll seriously consider picking it up, and see what it can do.

1911Tuner
July 27, 2010, 09:50 PM
I'd be happy to find one or three of those!

Like this? DOB 1965. When I stumbled on it about 3 years ago, it didn't even have even the hint of a drag ring around the cylinder.


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/M10SW.jpg

Onward Allusion
July 27, 2010, 10:26 PM
Um, I'm just here waiting for the results... In any event, it would appear that the Hi-Point survived Round 1 with minor scratches. Was the pistol was already broken in or was it straight from the box? I'm tempted to pick one up for kicks and put it through its paces.

1911Tuner
July 27, 2010, 10:41 PM
Was the pistol was already broken in or was it straight from the box?

Supposed to be out of box, or at least it was represented as such. It did come from the factory rep, so the question would be whether it was taken at random from inventory or a ringer that was cherry-picked, or had any special attention before it was shipped.

Maybe not, but since Hi Point has a dog in this fight, that would be the way to bet.

It would have carried more weight had it been taken from a distributor's inventory...but it is what it is.

valorius
July 28, 2010, 04:49 AM
I have not really messed with hi point pistols, but i bought my godson a 995 carbine in 9mm, and i honestly have to say the rifle totally blew me away with it's amazing reliability. I TRIED to get it to jam by feeding it every kind of hollowpoint and bullet weight i could find, to no avail.

The daggone little thing just plain works.

Skillet
July 28, 2010, 01:17 PM
I have only one problem with this gun.

its so UGLY!

the slide looks like a steel bar that didn't finish getting milled into a slide that one can stand to look at, the grip looks like somebody got a bit carried away bending metal at some point, its just so fugly its ridiculous.

but thats coming from a CZ fan. :D

akadave
July 28, 2010, 01:29 PM
The slide isnt steel...its a kind of Zinc (from Hi-Points website).

mcdonl
July 28, 2010, 02:18 PM
I would like to see the following challenge...

Have an 8" target at 21 - 30 feet....

Take two shooters...

Shooter A - A good shooter, has spent time at the range in the past and is familiar with the operations of a gun and knows how to draw, develop a sight picture and shoot.

Shooter B - A GREAT shooter, spends 2-4 hours a week at the range and sends 1000's of rounds down range.

Bring them both the line and give them one magazine full of ammo and ask them to shoot the target.

What do you think the results would be?

I am shooter A.5... I shoot more than the average fella, but not as much as many "high roaders... My brother, does not own a gun... was in the military but rarely shot a side arm, can hit the center of that target EVERY TIME... so can I...

The argument that you need to spend X amount of time at the range and send X amount of ammo down range is bogus... you need to be proficient... if YOU need to send 1000's or rounds down range to have home SD skills, than thats ok. No harm no foul, but that is not the case with everyone.

And, for someone who is inclined to shooting well, and has a limited budget a reliable $150 gun is just fine.

A collector is looking for other attributes than a homeowner looking for a SD gun and as I mentioned above, each person will need to find their own comfort zone.

JR47
July 28, 2010, 02:25 PM
My point was not why he was buying it I have pre 64 Winchesters locked up here also that have hardley been fired in years I take them out very seldom. My point is if he cant afford to feed it if its intent is for home defense maybe he shouldnt. I can afford the guns I have I can also afford to shoot them. The guns meant for home defense should be shot enough to be proficient with them. The guns bought for looking at dont have to be shot at all. Heck maybe he wants that highpoint to show off its looks I dont know but the purpose of the firearm and ability should be considered.

What yard-stick does one apply to the word "proficient"? How many of us, the "gun-savvy" people, actually spend the majority of our money in ammunition while setting up "real-life" scenarios, and then practicing them? I'm willing to bet that the majority of ammunition expended is against paper targets at distances of 15-25 yards, from a standing position. Most of us have to use public ranges. Ranges that are adverse to "reality-based scenarios".

The other side of this, of course, is why everyone always assumes that the perpetrator is so competent with HIS arm. Most burglers, smash-and-grab, or home-invasion, are using whatever weapon they can get their hands on. They don't practice with them, and rarely carry more ammo than came with the gun. Against that, the proficiency yard-stick is pretty short.

Deciding just what is sufficient practice, without ever being able to tell what the individual will actually do, and then claiming that such a person is "better off without a gun" sounds suspiciously like the VPC approach.

FYI, the slide on High Point pistols is NOT made of zinc. Zinc, in it's pure form, is way too soft. I believe that it is, instead, a Zinc-alloy, similar to Zamak. For what it is designed to do on these pistols, it works quite well. It's necessary to be made more bulky for the same strength as steel alloys, but costs significantly less.

shockwave
July 28, 2010, 02:51 PM
The other side of this, of course, is why everyone always assumes that the perpetrator is so competent with HIS arm.

That is not really the point of wanting to develop better-than-average proficiency. If there is a bad guy in my future, I don't know who it is. I don't know anything about him or her, or what kind of weapon he or she will have - if any. Can't make any assumptions about that.

What I can say for nearly certain is that most likely I'll be responding, not initiating the conflict. In many of the scenarios I consider, I'm getting shot at least once before returning fire (and I hope I'm not the only one who plans for that). So the burden of speed and accuracy is on the defender.

Back to the Hi-Point, I can't disregard aesthetics when it comes to my weapons. First and foremost they have to be effective. It's possible to overlook some of form factors, but the Hi-Point is far and away the ugliest firearm I've ever seen. Hard to imagine owning something like that.

akadave
July 28, 2010, 03:13 PM
What yard-stick does one apply to the word "proficient"? How many of us, the "gun-savvy" people, actually spend the majority of our money in ammunition while setting up "real-life" scenarios, and then practicing them? I'm willing to bet that the majority of ammunition expended is against paper targets at distances of 15-25 yards, from a standing position. Most of us have to use public ranges. Ranges that are adverse to "reality-based scenarios".

The other side of this, of course, is why everyone always assumes that the perpetrator is so competent with HIS arm. Most burglers, smash-and-grab, or home-invasion, are using whatever weapon they can get their hands on. They don't practice with them, and rarely carry more ammo than came with the gun. Against that, the proficiency yard-stick is pretty short.

Deciding just what is sufficient practice, without ever being able to tell what the individual will actually do, and then claiming that such a person is "better off without a gun" sounds suspiciously like the VPC approach.

FYI, the slide on High Point pistols is NOT made of zinc. Zinc, in it's pure form, is way too soft. I believe that it is, instead, a Zinc-alloy, similar to Zamak. For what it is designed to do on these pistols, it works quite well. It's necessary to be made more bulky for the same strength as steel alloys, but costs significantly less.
They use Zamak 3. Zamak is 96% ZINC and 4% Aluminum. So...yeah its basically Zinc. I have a number of Airsoft pistols...they are made of Zinc too. Lets leave Zinc to the airgun industry, and before you come back with the "plastic gun" argument, dont bother.

And I never said that anybody was better off without a gun if they werent proficient with it. My argument is that they are kidding themselves if they think they can actually "perform" should the need arise unless they actually put time and effort into practice of any kind.

CajunBass
July 28, 2010, 04:46 PM
My argument is that they are kidding themselves if they think they can actually "perform" should the need arise unless they actually put time and effort into practice of any kind.

Horsehockey. The NRA's "Armed Citizen" every month is full of stories about people who "perform" when they have to. I'd be willing to bet very few, if any of those people have ever spent much/any time "training" or even practicing. They're ordinary people who happen to have a gun, any gun, handy when it's needed.

1911Tuner
July 28, 2010, 06:09 PM
Horsehockey. The NRA's "Armed Citizen" every month is full of stories about people who "perform" when they have to. I'd be willing to bet very few, if any of those people have ever spent much/any time "training" or even practicing. They're ordinary people who happen to have a gun, any gun, handy when it's needed.

I'm inclined to agree. Most of those stories involve Grandma and/or Grandpa Shopkeeper or Bonnie Trueheart, the waitress at the small cafe. Joe Average types who become the target of an assault, robbery, or home invasion. Very rarely is there mention made of any of them being IDPA/USPSA or Bullseye competitors, or any involvement in the shooting sports. I'd tend to think if that was the case...it would be mentioned in the articles.

"Crooks picked the wrong victim Saturday night when they entered the home of Grand Master/Distinguished Expert/Former Green Beret weapons expert and champion pistol competitor John C. Realdeal during an attempted home invasion."

Instead of:

"An armed robbery went awry for Joe Pigsnot when he entered the general store with gun in hand and was met by 78 year-old Hiram B. Goodguy and his double barrelled shotgun."

Nasty
July 28, 2010, 07:36 PM
hehehe...gotta watch out for us old farts.

We're too old to fight and too slow to run, so we cheat and have a gun ready...*ANY* gun...99% of the fancy stuff is elitism.

No, I don't, nor have I ever, owned a Hi-Point, but I applaud those folks who can't afford anything *fancier* for taking the initiative in defending themselves.

mcdonl
July 28, 2010, 07:50 PM
No, I don't, nor have I ever, owned a Hi-Point, but I applaud those folks who can't afford anything *fancier* for taking the initiative in defending themselves.

Wise words from an old man :)

1911Tuner
July 28, 2010, 07:52 PM
May be a little wide of the tpoic, but it ties in with the point/counterpoint discussion on people not becoming proficient with their gun.

In the years that I've been involved with shooting and bringing new, uninitiated folks into the fold, that...while a little disconcerting...is more the norm than seeing the light come on and watching the previously non-shooter take to it like a mama bear to a honeycomb.

How often have we convinced wives, girlfriends, friends, neighbors, and 3rd cousins twice removed to get serious enough about their security to procure a suitable firearm...and then have to work to convince them to learn to use it?

And of those that we've managed to get to the range to actually shoot the gun...how many have grudgingly agreed to go back for repeat lessons...and then start to make excuses for not going after having made loud noises and created holes in paper targets?

How many have actually seemed like they've discovered this whole, new world of gun fun, and really gotten involved? I'd say about one in ten.

One of the hardest things for an enthusiast to understand is that not everybody is as passionate over his drive to excell at his favored activity as he is. From baseball to skydiving to playing chess...it simply doesn't interest everybody to the same level.

Equally hard to fathom is that...despite being shown the way...many of the people who buy a gun for protection are still a little afraid of it. They still view it as the snake in the woodpile. They'd still prefer that it not be there because to admit to themselves that it's a good thing to have on hand is to admit that the world can be a dangerous place, and their homes aren't the safe havens that they want to believe they are.

In short, that gun in their nightstand represents a shattered childhood belief...and they aren't comfortable with that. Such people aren't going to go practice Tueller Drills and sign up for Steel Challenge.

I read an editorial in the newspaper once where an anti-type journalist had gone to a firing range to observe and shoot in a USPSA match....just to see what it was like and to get a story for his column. He watched and he took notes, and when his report was pubished the following week, he made the remark:

"It's obvious that these people are training for something...but exactly what that something is seems to be a little too horrifying for this journalist to contemplate."

That is the mindset of many people who buy a gun for protection, and never really consider exactly what may be involved in that decision. They don't want to think about actually having to use it. On TV, everybody who has a gun is a Dead-Eye Dick, and they believe that it really works that way, and you'll hit a wall when you try to convince them that it doesn't.

s2mason
July 28, 2010, 09:30 PM
LOL.... I was the proud owner of 5 revolvers and several rifles, but did not own an autoloader; that is until this post. A friend of mine has a Hi Point 9mm that I've shot on occasion at the range. It's the only auto loader that I've managed to do a reasonable amount of damage to a target with. In any case, I started to consider picking one up due to price point. Who doesn't want another gun to plink with at the range? If I can get something cheap that goes bang everytime, all the better. Now, along comes this thread...... well, you fella's convinced me that for $150 bucks I gotta see what the fuss is all about. So this last weekend, I stopped in the local gun store and dropped off my $150 OTD for my very own Hi Point 9mm.
Now in MHO, no autoloader will ever be as pretty as a wheel gun. However, I just don't find this HP to be as ugly as everyone thinks. It looks like what it's intended to be. A cheap, durable pistol. It's not beautiful, but it looks like it can take a beating, it just looks kinda.......tough. Like a bully, I like that. Now I have something I don't feel bad about tossing it in the backpack, or the truck, etc., etc. and not having to give it too much attention.
I find it very, very hard to concieve that this gun can have very many problems at all based on the incredibly liberal warranty it carries. There is no way this company could stay in business at the margins they are selling this gun at, if they were dealing with excessive warranty claims. That just seems to be common sense to the business man in me..........
When the BG comes calling and this goes bang from 6' away, I'm just not convinced that my high dollar S&W's are going to be more efficient/effective in that scenario. I'm pretty sure that my wife also, can point and pull this with the same likely results.....just MO on the issue.

KodiakBeer
July 28, 2010, 10:00 PM
I am shooter A.5... I shoot more than the average fella, but not as much as many "high roaders... My brother, does not own a gun... was in the military but rarely shot a side arm, can hit the center of that target EVERY TIME... so can I...

The argument that you need to spend X amount of time at the range and send X amount of ammo down range is bogus...

How far away is that target? How often do you suppose you'll be shooting at a motionless assailant at 7 yards from an isosceles stance? The more you train, the readier you are to deal with real world threats that don't present themselves in such an ideal scenario.

Training is only one aspect of shooting. Most of us shoot because we enjoy it. Nobody is so good that they can't challenge themselves to reach the next level.

1911Tuner
July 28, 2010, 10:09 PM
Most of us shoot because we enjoy it. Nobody is so good that they can't challenge themselves to reach the next level.

Preachin' to the choir. We all understand that.

An old gun dealer told me something once that made a lot of sense.

He said that most people will come in to buy a gun and a box or two of ammunition for it...and he never sees them again. Some few others will come back in 6 months and buy another box...and that from what he's seen on a daily basis, 5% of the shooters are the ones that burn up 95% of the ammunition that's sold. He estimated that the average gun owner probably doesn't fire more than 50 rounds a year.

Carter
July 28, 2010, 10:12 PM
He estimated that the average gun owner probably doesn't fire more than 50 rounds a year.

Unless most people are buying ammo online because its cheaper. I usually only ever buy ammo from my shop because I spend so much time looking around I feel its only nice to spend some money. Buy all of my firearms from them, but ammo else where.

But its still highly probable that most gun owners don't shoot nearly as much as they should.

Maverick223
July 28, 2010, 10:32 PM
Unless most people are buying ammo online because its cheaper. I usually only ever buy ammo from my shop because I spend so much time looking around I feel its only nice to spend some money. Buy all of my firearms from them, but ammo else where.I am the same way. I mostly shoot rifles, and buy most of my reloading components for those online (save for powder and primers which I buy locally to save on shipping). I purchase most of my loaded ammunition (mostly rimfire and shotshells) from the local WW and online, but typically buy a box or two from my dealer every trip, more or less as a sign of gratitude for his service.

:)

Owen
July 28, 2010, 11:23 PM
Smith and Wesson did a bunch of market studies in the 80s and determined that the average pistol sold in the United States was fired about 100 rounds by each owner, with the vast majority of revolvers being shot 44 times, and put in a nightstand.

Maverick223
July 28, 2010, 11:36 PM
Smith and Wesson did a bunch of market studies in the 80s and determined that [...] the vast majority of revolvers being shot 44 times, and put in a nightstand.I don't put too much faith in that survey, but I do find it interesting that they picked 44, which isn't divisible by 6 or 5, the most prevalent capacity of the average revolver, but just so happens to be one box of 50 cartridges minus 6 to keep in the cylinder. Hmmm...

:)

christcorp
July 29, 2010, 12:35 AM
I don't put too much faith in that survey, but I do find it interesting that they picked 44, which isn't divisible by 6 or 5, the most prevalent capacity of the average revolver, but just so happens to be one box of 50 cartridges minus 6 to keep in the cylinder. Hmmm...

:)
That is exactly what many people do. They don't even look at hollow points or anything else. They go to wally world or where they bought the gun, buy a box of inexpensive bullets, and shoot them to at least know what they got into. They save 1 magazine or cylinder full for defensive purposes. I bought a used gun from a widow. After her husband died and she decided to move to warmer weather, she let me go through his tools to see if I wanted to buy any. We chatted about hunting and guns, and she said he had a pistol in the drawer if I was interested. It was a Ruger Blackhawk 357, and it had 6 rounds of Blazer 158 grain jhp in it. She said she forgot he had it and it was in case someone broke into the house.

So I definitely agree that the vast majority of gun owners, mainly pistol, shoot very little out of them. That's why it's generally such a great deal to buy used guns. And most of these owners only want a gun that they can point and click, and they aren't going to spend a lot of time practicing. That's why I almost always recommend that they buy a revolver. They don't have the break in requirements of a revolver. A revolver can sit loaded for 10 years, and I trust it to fire all 6 rounds more than I trust a semi-auto to make it through an entire magazine after sitting for 10 years.

David E
July 29, 2010, 12:57 AM
The argument that you need to spend X amount of time at the range and send X amount of ammo down range is bogus... you need to be proficient...

It depends what level of "proficiency" one wants to reach.

Could a person learn to draw, fire 3 rds to slide lock, reload and fire 3 more rds into the 10 ring of a B-27 at 7 yds target easily? Sure. It shouldn't take all that long, less than 100, if not less than 50 rds.

But could they do it in 8 seconds, start to finish? How about 5? 4?

I currently have a student that can do it.....until we put the 8 second time frame on it. (hence, the reason he's my student)

It's all a matter of how proficient one wants or needs to be.

christcorp
July 29, 2010, 01:14 AM
On the other side of that same coin, a lot of practice and being a competition shooter doesn't automatically mean you're going to be able to defend yourself either. I listen and read a lot from all these "Drugstore Cowboys" who talk about all their shooting experience. I can tell by a certain vocabulary who these people are. When you are in a defensive situation, all bets are off. Most of these people who are so confident, have no idea what it's like to have your adrenaline race that high. To have your heart pound to the point where you really believe others can hear you. Where you're sweating and cold and scared. And hopefully, most people will never have to know that experience. In the last 40 years, I knew 2 people that were about as proficient as anyone could ever be with a rifle and pistol. It was more than a hobby to them. They shot just about every weekend. One was when I lived in New Jersey. He'd been shooting for at least 20 years. We went dear hunting. When he got a bead on the deer, he got total "Buck Shy". And believe me, if it can happen when aiming at an animal, it DOES happen when aiming at another human being. The other person was while I was living/stationed in Spain. I was deployed to the sandbox (middle east). Some snipers took some pot shots at a convoy we had. A guy I knew with us was security forces. But this was the first time he was ever in the real stuff. He froze up and sat on the ground behind one of the trucks. Nothing serious happened. Little pot shots was very common back then. But this guy with us totally freaked out.

Point is, practice is good. All my practice is with 3 shot bursts. I NEVER shoot less or more than 3 rounds when I practice with a pistol. I want muscle memory to automatically pull the trigger and fire 3 rounds at the center of mass of the person. I don't fire 1 round to see how accurate I am. Even with a new gun, it's 3 times quickly. But no matter how much you train, if you ever really have to pull that gun out, aim it, and shoot another person with it, then all bets are off. I train totally for accuracy. But no amount of training is going to keep you calm, control your breathing, lower your heart rate, and keep your eyes open. But if you can get through all the psychological issues, the training then comes in handy for allowing muscle memory to hit your target without thinking about it.

msgttbar
July 29, 2010, 01:17 AM
I got this response from MKS several years ago about cleanliness of HP pistols. I follow their cleaning regimen and have never had mine apart for over 5 years and many rounds. Still works fine. I also use the same cleaning procedures on my 995.


----------beginning of email ----------------
From: Mkshpoint@aol.com [mailto:Mkshpoint@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:19 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Cleaning Instructions


Dear XXXXX,

Although some customers who have Hi Point Firearms are capable of it, MKS recommends that you do not take the gun apart. The exploded view in the manual is not intended to be a detailed disassembly guide. It is really just to note the basic steps for those who feel qualified. The way MKS recommends to clean a Hi Point is to blow the inner area out with a mild aerosol solvent once or twice a year. (Of course wear eye protection). This gets out any accumulated grime and dirt that may have been attracted and held in there by the oil. Clean the barrel with a good bore solvent after you get home from shooting. This is all we do after thousands of rounds of shooting. Oil lightly, and the gun is ready for the next session of shooting. If you feel that you must take the gun apart, but need help, please phone the factory and talk with a mechanic there. They can be reached at (419) 747-9444 Mon.-Thurs. 7am-5pm EST.

Hope this helps!

PJJ
MKS Supply, Inc.
Marketer of Hi-Point Firearms


---------end of email

1911Tuner
July 29, 2010, 05:04 AM
Unless most people are buying ammo online because its cheaper.

I suppose that could be a factor, and I even mentioned that...but this guy's experience predates the internet by a good many years. He closed up shop several years ago, but held onto his FFL via grandfathering, and he still dabbles in guns and ammunition. The statistics that he quoted still seem to apply.

Not everybody who buys a gun is an active shooter. That's the plain truth...hard as that may be to imagine. I met an old guy back in the day when NC only issued two deer tags. He renewed his license...as per his long-time habit...the day before the season opened. Deer was all he was interested in. The day he arranged his license, he also bought two rounds of .30-30 ammunition.

The day that I was present for this annual ritual, another guy at the counter asked him:

"Why only two rounds?"

The answer was straight from the shoulder.

"I cain't git but two deer tags."

The dealer confirmed that this had been ongoing for several years. He was an avid deer hunter, but aside from that, he had zero interest in shooting.

Nasty
July 29, 2010, 08:01 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I kind of like the unpretentious manner the company seems to have.

"...please phone the factory and talk with a mechanic..."

Not a "Service Technician"
Not a "Factory Trained Technician"
Not an "Authorized Gunsmith"

Just a plain and simple guy who knows how they are built and how to keep them working.

A mechanic...I like it.

CajunBass
July 29, 2010, 09:05 AM
Not everybody who buys a gun is an active shooter.

Ain't that the truth? I've got a 12 ga Sears pump gun that was my Dad's. As far as I know it was the only gun he ever owned in his life. The only time he ever shot it was two or three rounds a week during the fall at the local fire dept turkey shoot.

I didn't even know my landlord owned a gun until one night I heard a shot out back and checked and found he'd killed a possum in the henhouse (literally). A Remington 66 he's had since he was a kid. That was the only time I've ever known him to fire a shot in the years I've lived here.

Maverick223
July 29, 2010, 10:54 AM
The day he arranged his license, he also bought two rounds of .30-30 ammunition.Sounds like the guy didn't need the practice...that is, if he took two deer. Reminds me of the story about why you don't mess with folks that only own one gun; that being a single shot scattergun..."because they probably know how to use it". BTW, where in the heck can you buy two rounds of ammunition?

:)

1911Tuner
July 29, 2010, 11:31 AM
Maverick...Used to be that some dealers would break a box of ammo and sell a few rounds. That was another time and place.

JohnBT
July 29, 2010, 11:37 AM
Country stores would sell a single cigarette, too. Or maybe it was 2 for a penny depending on the price of a pack. I used to buy Marlboros for 25 cents a pack in 1972.

Maverick223
July 29, 2010, 12:01 PM
Maverick...Used to be that some dealers would break a box of ammo and sell a few rounds. That was another time and place.If it was about the same time as the above statement by John...that was well before my time.

:)

CajunBass
July 30, 2010, 12:01 AM
Maverick...Used to be that some dealers would break a box of ammo and sell a few rounds. That was another time and place.

I've bought individual shotgun shells when I was a kid. I forgot what we paid for them, but I remember doing it.

contender
July 30, 2010, 12:06 AM
here is the last entry posted as of this date on his blog........with match results. the cz placed 6th while the HP placed 8th out of 20 positions.....or i should really say----the shooter placed 6th and 8th......

http://multigun.wordpress.com/

my take on the hi-point.......they work well enough from what i see on the range occasionally....and most folks that i know of that have them buy them because of price point.

One man's hamburger is another man's steak.

Nasty
July 30, 2010, 06:47 AM
Not too bad at all!

Especially considering that the HP was *not* made for such use, eh?

mcdonl
July 30, 2010, 06:52 AM
Justin, I am curious if you can find out what guns the shooters who came in close to the HP were shooting, and if they typically place where they did.

Also, Lake George NY?

Onward Allusion
July 30, 2010, 07:54 AM
Not bad at all for a $150 pistol.

If...

- all I had to spend was under $200
- lived in an area without a wide selection of gun shops or ones that carried surplus
- and I didn't know about FFL transfers

this would be an ideal weapon for self defense. BTW, the preceding description probably applies to more people than those on THR.


contender (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=2992)
here is the last entry posted as of this date on his blog........with match results. the cz placed 6th while the HP placed 8th out of 20 positions.....or i should really say----the shooter placed 6th and 8th......
http://multigun.wordpress.com/
my take on the hi-point.......they work well enough from what i see on the range occasionally....and most folks that i know of that have them buy them because of price point.
One man's hamburger is another man's steak.

1911Tuner
July 30, 2010, 08:44 AM
Not too bad at all!

Especially considering that the HP was *not* made for such use, eh?

I'd say maybe even a bit of a surprise for many people, especially those who laud the CZ and slam the Hi-Point.

CajunBass
July 30, 2010, 11:18 AM
Yep. Not too bad at all. I'm not surprised at all based on my experience with the one I've got.

Thanks Justin.

mcdonl
July 30, 2010, 11:43 AM
I am a hi point owner, not fan boy... I bet though that the cumbersome handling of the gun will lower the score and ranking when pulled from a holster. Just my guess... low ready does give some advantage doesnt it? Unless Justin is well trained with his CZ, in which case it would tilt back some.

akadave
July 30, 2010, 12:06 PM
I am a hi point owner, not fan boy... I bet though that the cumbersome handling of the gun will lower the score and ranking when pulled from a holster. Just my guess... low ready does give some advantage doesnt it? Unless Justin is well trained with his CZ, in which case it would tilt back some.
Low ready and holstered are a world of difference.

mcdonl
July 30, 2010, 12:13 PM
Low ready and holstered are a world of difference.

Thats what I thought. Advantage low ready right? I guess we would also have to know if all of the other competition was holstered or low ready, and calculate exactly what "a world of difference" means in times.

I have always know that hi points were reliable guns, but I never considered them competition guns but this is interesting anyway.

I think the accuracy is there, but the fact you need tools to break them down rules out competition in my book.

Ok, so here is the world of difference from a great article...

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/biomechanics.pdf

It seems as though, from the low ready the time it took to get a sight picture and take a shot was .84 seconds, and from a level 1 un-snapped holster the time was 1.61 seconds. So, I guess a world of difference means twice as long to first shot.

Interesting read, and please know I "para phrased" and may have missed something key in the translation.

christcorp
July 30, 2010, 12:21 PM
Considering, as mentioned, that the hi-point wasn't really designed as a sporting gun, low ready would most likely be the preferred carry for self defense. It's not a concealed carry gun. So, if in the house, boating, garage, camping, etc... and you feel a threat coming upon you, chances are, you'll have the pistol drawn and ready to go. So again, for what it was designed for, it seems quite impressive.

Nasty
July 30, 2010, 02:24 PM
Agreed...low ready would most closely simulate typical house duty.

I know that I quit wearing a holster and sixgun to bed when I was around 6 or 7 anyway.

mcdonl
July 30, 2010, 02:47 PM
haha... "growing up leads to growing old and then to dying..."

Like I said, I love my C9 and 995TS I was just playing devils advocate as well, when it comes to reliability and accuracy the argument against the hi points are getting old, and well.. the whole ugly thing... I do not take anyone seriously who makes a decision to purchase or not purchase anything other than a wife based on looks. And, even that is sketchy :)

So, I would rather argue it's merits as a competition gun.

akadave
July 30, 2010, 03:05 PM
Thats what I thought. Advantage low ready right? I guess we would also have to know if all of the other competition was holstered or low ready, and calculate exactly what "a world of difference" means in times.

I have always know that hi points were reliable guns, but I never considered them competition guns but this is interesting anyway.

I think the accuracy is there, but the fact you need tools to break them down rules out competition in my book.

Ok, so here is the world of difference from a great article...

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/biomechanics.pdf

It seems as though, from the low ready the time it took to get a sight picture and take a shot was .84 seconds, and from a level 1 un-snapped holster the time was 1.61 seconds. So, I guess a world of difference means twice as long to first shot.

Interesting read, and please know I "para phrased" and may have missed something key in the translation.
Low ready - .64 seconds
Holstered - Average of 1.5 seconds depending on holster.

Almost 3 times as fast?

mcdonl
July 30, 2010, 03:06 PM
lol... ok... maybe that was a bad choice of words... let me ask my wife Helga, #24566

Low ready - .64 seconds
Holstered - Average of 1.5 seconds depending on holster.

Almost 3 times as fast?

Before you get too excited about your "victory", no... mathamatically it is closer to 2 times;

.64 x 2 = 1.28 which is a delta of .22 less than 1.5
.64 x 3 = 1.92 which is a delta of .42 greater than 1.5

AND, we are measuring what is otherwise [for this particular competition] a top 10 performing gun in 1/100's of a second. A gun many indicate that if you cannot afford more, you should not even be purchasing so I think you get the point.

akadave
July 31, 2010, 01:10 AM
lol... ok... maybe that was a bad choice of words... let me ask my wife Helga, #24566



Before you get too excited about your "victory", no... mathamatically it is closer to 2 times;

.64 x 2 = 1.28 which is a delta of .22 less than 1.5
.64 x 3 = 1.92 which is a delta of .42 greater than 1.5

AND, we are measuring what is otherwise [for this particular competition] a top 10 performing gun in 1/100's of a second. A gun many indicate that if you cannot afford more, you should not even be purchasing so I think you get the point.
What are you talking about "Victory"? I was asking if that indicated a near 3x difference? Damn you Hi-Point zombies are thin skinned!

Not bad for a pot metal gun really.

mcdonl
July 31, 2010, 05:38 PM
First of all, I am not a Hi Point zombie. If someone made another gun that was cheaper and as reliable I would but that one.

Pot metal, whatever... doesn't matter to me. If they made one that was reliable, safe and accurate that was made of cardboard I would shoot that too.

A watch collector will never wear a $5 Timex from walmart and a gun collector will never buy a hi point. A times will work, just as good as a Rolex but it will not be as cool when you show it to your buddies, but some people just want to know what time it is.

Same with a hi point, it will never get you ooohs and aaahs at the gun range but it will function as good as any other gun.

Oh, wait strike that... in this particular contest it shoots better then all but 8 of the guns entered... my bad, but you get the point.

And as far as the thin skinned comment. I could care less about hi point, any other gun or your opinion. This is a blog, I am participating in a conversation. I am actually doing so with quite a good demeanor and spirit.

oldfool
August 1, 2010, 11:54 AM
"A watch collector will never wear a $5 Timex from walmart and a gun collector will never buy a hi point. A timex will work, just as good as a Rolex but it will not be as cool when you show it to your buddies, but some people just want to know what time it is."

I think that's the best comment I have ever heard in these flame game woobie wars

I made fun of the HiPoints when they came out... "disposable guns for gang-bangers, who ever woulda' thunk it ?", that sort of dissin', you know
but since then, way too many people have owned 'em and shot 'em, and the jokes are over, not justifiable

doesn't mean I will ever buy one.. then again, you just never know
(a car/travel gun that would be no heartbreaker if lost, whatever)
I do know I ain't ever going to drop a grand on a 1911, and I admire 1911s with religious respect

Justin is doing the right thing
but diehards will be diehards and just cannot let it slide
too bad

akadave
August 1, 2010, 12:48 PM
First of all, I am not a Hi Point zombie. If someone made another gun that was cheaper and as reliable I would but that one.

Pot metal, whatever... doesn't matter to me. If they made one that was reliable, safe and accurate that was made of cardboard I would shoot that too.

A watch collector will never wear a $5 Timex from walmart and a gun collector will never buy a hi point. A times will work, just as good as a Rolex but it will not be as cool when you show it to your buddies, but some people just want to know what time it is.

Same with a hi point, it will never get you ooohs and aaahs at the gun range but it will function as good as any other gun.

Oh, wait strike that... in this particular contest it shoots better then all but 8 of the guns entered... my bad, but you get the point.

And as far as the thin skinned comment. I could care less about hi point, any other gun or your opinion. This is a blog, I am participating in a conversation. I am actually doing so with quite a good demeanor and spirit.
Look, I really dont have a dog in this fight. I dont have a CZ or a Hi-Point. But there seems to be a lot of "trigger happy" comments from people that have aleady made up their minds that there isnt a wit of difference between Hi-Point and any other auto. And justifying that the Hi-Point was close to all the others when the comparison is draw vs low-ready is just not the same in an actual competitions now is it? If the gun works for you and you feel comfortable with it fine.

I really like the comment that the gun shot better than all but 8 others...as if the gun was the only factor. I also hear that people dont kill people...its the guns.

Owen
August 1, 2010, 05:55 PM
1. nice job skipping the cuss filter with a misspelling...
2. The competition is to determine if it is a good gun or not. Competitions like USPSA and Steel Challenge are good ways to judge this because they offer a way to measure not only the technical performance of the gun, but its interaction with the shooter.

If a gun isn't reliable enough for a game, why would you trust your life to it?

3. if by best warranty in the industry, you mean typical of the major manufacturers, I'll agree with you.

4. I'd be very surprised if it lasted 10s of thousands of rounds. I test guns for a living, and I assure you that is a very high bar. What's the MRBS, and MRBF? How fast does the accuracy degrade?

5. I have no problem telling people that if a hipoint is all they can afford, go ahead and get one. That said, if that's all someone can afford, how much practice will they get in? Chances are they have some much more pressing needs that the $150 bucks will handle nicely. Like good locks, decent exterior lighting, and food.

I emptied the entire 17 round magazines on an elk that was only 100 yards away, and the elk still got away from me. Nice to know you are a responsible adult.

Rail Driver
August 1, 2010, 06:16 PM
[EDITED to remove non-contributory reference to deleted material]

2. The competition is to determine if it is a good gun or not. Competitions like USPSA and Steel Challenge are good ways to judge this because they offer a way to measure not only the technical performance of the gun, but its interaction with the shooter.

Competitions like USPSA and Steel Challenge are good to determine the ability of a shooter using whatever equipment happens to be allowed in whatever class that shooter is in, competition isn't used to determine the quality and reliability (ie: good or not) of a gun, although it can help. Personally, I don't know any competition shooters that use competition to determine what gun they use, but then again I only know 20 or 30 competition shooters...

If a gun isn't reliable enough for a game, why would you trust your life to it? I would ABSOLUTELY trust my life to a gun that I wouldn't ever think of taking to a competition, however I wouldn't use a race gun for self defense. Tolerances on match grade firearms are much tighter than on "standard issue" or whatever you want to call it. I'd rather not trust my life to something that could jam from a piece of lint from my pocket.

3. if by best warranty in the industry, you mean typical of the major manufacturers, I'll agree with you.
Typically the major manufacturers warranties are limited to the original purchaser of the firearm... not so with Hi-Point. I think that merits mentioning.

4. I'd be very surprised if it lasted 10s of thousands of rounds. I test guns for a living, and I assure you that is a very high bar. What's the MRBS, and MRBF? How fast does the accuracy degrade? I don't know about the MRBS and MRBF, or accuracy degradation of a hi-point, but I can assure you that the c-9 I sold in january had well over 12k rounds down the pipe when I let it go, and is still ticking.

5. I have no problem telling people that if a hipoint is all they can afford, go ahead and get one. That said, if that's all someone can afford, how much practice will they get in? Chances are they have some much more pressing needs that the $150 bucks will handle nicely. Like good locks, decent exterior lighting, and food. Locks, while a good idea, are a waste of money if you're putting them in a door in most of the low income housing I've ever seen... hollow or foam filled wood veneer doors that MIGHT have sheet steel or aluminum over the wood? For a decent door and jamb you're looking at over $300 before you buy locksets, and that's if you install it yourself. What about new windows to match? Another couple grand. Exterior lighting might help some, but again... it's a package deal along with good doors and windows with locks. Food won't help if you're not there to eat it, and it certainly won't protect you in an emergency. Either way, protecting oneself and one's family is just as important as food and housing.


I emptied the entire 17 round magazines on an elk that was only 100 yards away, and the elk still got away from me.
Nice to know you are a responsible adult.

Not entirely sure you read the entire post you quoted from... Try going back and reading it again and you may understand.

*removed due to non high-road comment*

mcdonl
August 1, 2010, 08:28 PM
And justifying that the Hi-Point was close to all the others when the comparison is draw vs low-ready is just not the same in an actual competitions now is it?

Good point sir. I brought that up too. And, I am sorry I got worked up. I would never consider the gun as a CCW or Competition gun.

I really like the comment that the gun shot better than all but 8 others...as if the gun was the only factor.

Another great point.

ohwell
August 1, 2010, 10:05 PM
Food won't help if you're not there to eat it, and it certainly won't protect you in an emergency. Either way, protecting oneself and one's family is just as important as food and housing.

If I had to choose between food and a highpoint I'd say the odds of me living longer would be with buying food

Rail Driver
August 1, 2010, 10:27 PM
If I had to choose between food and a highpoint I'd say the odds of me living longer would be with buying food

I would have to disagree... It's not hard to get food with a gun, one way or another.

Even a Hi-Point 9mm will take a hog. Deer if you get close enough.

Now, if I had $150 in my pocket I'd most likely not buy a hi-point, but then I'm not in a situation where that's the only gun I can afford.

Generally, when a person is looking to buy a gun, they have a certain amount of money available for that gun... So you say save for something better? And what happens while they're saving up for that $500 GLOCK like what's in your gun safe or in your holster and Mister Intruder comes kicking in their door? The intruder walks out with whatever Mister Save-for-something-better has saved, not to mention possibly his and his family's lives.

Some people don't have the resources or income to buy a "nicer" gun and want or need a pistol for home or self defense, or for whatever reason. This brings us to the question of the day... Do poor people not deserve the same RIGHT to keep and bear arms that those of you who have money to fill your safes with guns you don't shoot?

Come on people, get real. When it boils down to it, a gun is a gun for the most part. Some are more reliable, some are nicer looking, and they range in price. Different guns for different purposes same as the tools in your toolbox. 90% of what you pay for, however, is the company name etched into the slide or grip.

Cearbhall
August 2, 2010, 05:02 AM
If you ever have to use your gun for defence against a home invader, the police will take your gun in for ballistics testing and you'll be lucky to ever see it again. Which one do want them to take, the Hi-Point, or your custom, 3000+ dollar gun?

rbernie
August 2, 2010, 08:03 AM
Tone it down, folk, or I'm gonna shut this down and leave all of y'all hanging without ever finding out how the test concluded. ;)

There is waaaay too much emotion in this topic, and y'all know better than to be posting like that.

Onward Allusion
August 2, 2010, 12:02 PM
A little off-topic, but I'm so intrigued by the results that I'd bought a Hi-Point C-9 myself. I'll have it in a week and I'm going to put it through its paces just for grins. I'll report back here if this thread is still open. Keep in mind that this one will be a straight off the shelf piece and not one that may have been possibly cherry-picked off the line.

akadave
August 2, 2010, 02:20 PM
I own dozens of firearms and have owned many more than that over the last 30 years. I have bought used and new in equal amounts. In every case, I mean every case I have sent a used firearm in for repair that was not due to some negligence on my part or normal wear and tear, which was approximately 6 or so guns, it was repaired by the respective manufacturer free of cost, no questions asked. Ruger, S&W, FN and Freedom Arms. Recently Ruger even gave me a new revolver after I sent in one that I was the second owner of, that had issues not due to use.

With the possibility of injury to the user, all gun manufacturers are extremely liberal with their repair and replacement policy. Its part of the industry so Hi-Point's warranty isnt all that surprising.

valorius
August 2, 2010, 02:37 PM
That said, if that's all someone can afford, how much practice will they get in? Chances are they have some much more pressing needs that the $150 bucks will handle nicely. Like good locks, decent exterior lighting, and food.
How could you possibly know what someone else's pressing needs are?

American Rifleman's armed citizen has stories every month of poorly trained individuals using firearms to defend themselves. If a Hi Point gives you that opportunity, where otherwise you would have had no opportunity, i say buy one.

That being said, a used Kel Tec PF-9 or PF-11 is about the same price, if not just slightly higher, as a new Hi Point.

millertyme
August 2, 2010, 03:20 PM
With the possibility of injury to the user, all gun manufacturers are extremely liberal with their repair and replacement policy. Its part of the industry so Hi-Point's warranty isnt all that surprising.

Not EAA. Of course, they don't manufacture anything. Maybe I'll call Italy.

That being said, a used Kel Tec PF-9 or PF-11 is about the same price, if not just slightly higher, as a new Hi Point

I'm coming to your world. In the real world a new Hi-Point runs $150 for 9mm, about the same less tax for one used. A used PF9 is still around $290 and a used P11 is only slightly less. So you can buy two new Hi-Points for a little more than one used Kel-Tec. Even the P32 and P3AT are over $200.

s2mason
August 2, 2010, 07:59 PM
As I previously posted in, I picked up a HP 9mm just because of the debate generated in this thread. I had the opportunity to try it out this week end.
It performed very adequately IMO. Aim, pull the trigger and it goes boom and makes a hole close to where I was aiming. Cycled through cheap ammo well, and didn't have much for recoil. Comfortable grip and shoot. Can't ask for much more for $150 OTD.
Nice gun and well worth money.

AcceptableUserName
August 2, 2010, 08:45 PM
why hate hi point? they have a decent if not unspectacular product, market it well and back it up. judging by their warranty, they have integrity.

I'll be buying a Hi Point .45 at some point, whereas I WON'T be buying a Sig, and that's because of the way the company treats their customers...period

Handgunner
August 2, 2010, 09:25 PM
why hate hi point? they have a decent if not unspectacular product, market it well and back it up. judging by their warranty, they have integrity.

And they're American made. :)

tkopp
August 2, 2010, 09:58 PM
In the last locked high point thread ;) I noted that I got to play with my buddy's C9. He bought it in a parking lot for $60, picked up a box of ammo for it, and never shot it. I finally dragged him out to the range, we adjusted the sights, and at 10y as a first-time shooter he was able to keep it in a 6" circle. Guy kept enough ammo for one full load of the weapon, one up the pipe, and put it away. He may never shoot it again, but at least we know it points straight. My main complaint was that the heavy slide and blowback mechanism made the recoil *seem* higher. Not as bad as my officer-size 1911, but more than you'd expect from a 9mm.

akadave
August 2, 2010, 10:48 PM
Not EAA. Of course, they don't manufacture anything. Maybe I'll call Italy.



I'm coming to your world. In the real world a new Hi-Point runs $150 for 9mm, about the same less tax for one used. A used PF9 is still around $290 and a used P11 is only slightly less. So you can buy two new Hi-Points for a little more than one used Kel-Tec. Even the P32 and P3AT are over $200.
Selma Alabama for EAA warranty stuff. I had to send in an FN Hi-Power for work that was no charge as well. In the US...didnt have to send it to Belgium lol!

Girodin
August 3, 2010, 12:22 AM
If you ever have to use your gun for defence against a home invader, the police will take your gun in for ballistics testing and you'll be lucky to ever see it again. Which one do want them to take, the Hi-Point, or your custom, 3000+ dollar gun?

If I have to use it in self defense that will be the least of my concerns and I would consider the price of the weapon what ever it was money well spent. If I have to use a weapon is self defense I want the "best" one not one that is cheap and I don't care if I ever see again.

Further more hi point or $3k custom is a bit of a false dichotomy.

DesmoDucRob
August 3, 2010, 04:02 PM
I can not imagine that there has ever been a better promotion for Hi-Point than the discussions that have resulted from this comparison. The sales generated from Justin's donated 9mm should prove to be the best investment Hi-Point has ever made. I may be speculating a bit early, but this has generated a lot of discussion, and as of late, there seem to be many gun snobs secretly sampling the C9.

I actually find myself wanting one of those ugly little suckers.

ForumSurfer
August 3, 2010, 04:12 PM
I actually find myself wanting one of those ugly little suckers.

I frequent a local gunshop on my lunch break. They have lots of interesting trades, so it’s always fun to stop by.

I’ve bought several firearms and related items. 1911’s, ar stuff, glocks…you name it. Today I stopped in and asked to look at a high point. He raised an eyebrow, but never commented on it. That’s why they get my business. I simply just wanted to handle one since I never have. I thought my glock felt like a brick…that thing feels like a brick with a fisher price handle. But after seeing the blog results, I gotta respect it for what it is.

I’ve got a little more disposable income so that wouldn’t be my choice at all, I’d rather use that money to put towards my latest hobby I want to start…reloading. But the highpoint is what it is. If it lasts through a few more rounds, it will have proven itself in my eyes. It is what it is…it just isn’t for me.

herohog
August 3, 2010, 04:44 PM
I am a proponent of the C9 but will readily admit that that big heavy slide slowly cycling back and forth up there IS a bit disconcerting!

millertyme
August 3, 2010, 09:55 PM
Selma Alabama for EAA warranty stuff. I had to send in an FN Hi-Power for work that was no charge as well. In the US...didnt have to send it to Belgium lol!

I have an EAA Witness-P in .45ACP that has a pin backing out a little over the course of several magazines. They said I'd have to pay for the repair if one was necessary. I got the pistol for a little more than a song so I'm not overly concerned with it, just reluctant to let anyone else shoot it.

valorius
August 4, 2010, 02:26 AM
I'm coming to your world. In the real world a new Hi-Point runs $150 for 9mm, about the same less tax for one used. A used PF9 is still around $290 and a used P11 is only slightly less. So you can buy two new Hi-Points for a little more than one used Kel-Tec. Even the P32 and P3AT are over $200. You should come to my world i guess, i bought a used P32 about a year ago for $150. It's gone already. I traded it in with a CT laser installed straight up for a Ruger LCP. Not a big fan of Kel Tec.

mcdonl
August 4, 2010, 05:53 AM
I can not imagine that there has ever been a better promotion for Hi-Point than the discussions that have resulted from this comparison. The sales generated from Justin's donated 9mm should prove to be the best investment Hi-Point has ever made. I may be speculating a bit early, but this has generated a lot of discussion, and as of late, there seem to be many gun snobs secretly sampling the C9.

You may find this hard to believe, but between the gun club I go to occasionally, every man I know hunting and the dozens of people I have run into shooting at the local pits and ranges I have never met anyone who knew what THR is.

CajunBass
August 4, 2010, 08:04 AM
You should come to my world i guess, i bought a used P32 about a year ago for $150.

I'm always surprised what people consider "just a little bit more" when it comes to alternatives to a Hi-Point. Sure you got a good buy when you found that P-32 (which isn't really in the C-9's class anyway, other than it's a gun), and I might have bought it too, but that's not an average. I've certainly never seen one, new or used for that price.

Besides. You think I don't know if I spend more I can get something better? WOW. Stop the presses. :D That's not the question. The question is what can I get for "X" amount of money. Not "X+ whatever number you pick."

I have never met anyone who knew what THR is.

Me either. Or any of the other "gun boards" I read.

s2mason
August 4, 2010, 08:45 PM
I'm curious as to why there seems to be some propensity to bash or denegrade the HP product? I don't follow alot of posts, so I admit to being rather green to this sort of dialouge. I just don't get it. It seems like there are alot of really bad guns out there that merit some degree of bashing (some.....), but the HP seems to have a track record of being a decent performing gun, at a decent price. What's the hang up?

1911Tuner
August 4, 2010, 08:59 PM
What's the hang up?

Pretty much 'cause it's ugly...

Rail Driver
August 4, 2010, 09:23 PM
Pretty much 'cause it's ugly...

So's the Kriss Carbine, the Springfield XD, GLOCK anything...

Hi-Point gets bashed because they're ugly and inexpensive. I've noticed that a lot of "gun snobs" think that if you can't afford to drop more than a couple hundred bucks then you don't deserve to buy a gun. (IE the "buy locks or food instead" comment in this thread)

As mentioned before, it's similar to anything... "you suck because you drive a ford taurus" "you suck because you rent a townhome rather than owning a 4 bedroom house on 10 acres" "You suck because you shoot a hi-point instead of a kimber"

It's not going to end... People have a competitive instinct as well as a very self serving and greedy nature that few ever truly conquer. Common sense (and our parents, ideally) tell us that "If you don't have anything nice, informative, or substantive to add, then keep your trap shut." but when the time comes that someone buys, or thinks about buying that hi-point, people come out of the woodwork to tell them how bad the gun is, how much better their kimber, colt, glock, s&w, etc is than the hi-point, and most of the people bashing the hi-points have never handled, fired, or owned one because "they're junk".

I hear about "Pot metal guns" but the truth is, the slide on a hi-point is made from an alloy of zinc, copper, aluminum and magnesium that holds up very well to the blowback operation of a hi-point. Bring me a pot made of zamak-3 in the package from a store and I'll hand over my gun collection. The Hi-points aren't made from pot metal, even if it's not stainless steel or hard chrome. In any case, the point is moot as the high-stress components in a hi-point are made from quality steel (barrel and other small parts such as springs and pins). The main reason hi-points are referred to as "pot metal guns" is because the zamak alloys (there are several, though zamak-3 is the most widely used) are called "white metal" or "pot metal" although they're not used for pots, but rather in die casting (one form of zamak is used to cast the rollers that are used to manufacture sheet metal).

Finally, do a google search for 'catastrophic pistol failure images' and you'll sift through hundreds of pictures of damaged, broken and destroyed glocks, 1911s and smith and wessons before you'll see a single cracked hi-point slide, much less anything worse. If the company really sold junk, they wouldn't still be in business.

1911Tuner
August 4, 2010, 09:27 PM
Preachin' to the choir, RD. I've been stickin' up for Hi-Points for some time now.

Rail Driver
August 4, 2010, 09:42 PM
No doubt, 1911Tuner. I'm glad my first gun was a hi-point. It was an effective learning tool, and like any tool, there's a use that it was designed for: to fire a bullet. Sure I'm glad I have something that does that while looking a little nicer now, but I wasn't ashamed to own a hi-point, and I would again as well as recommending the hi-points to beginning shooters (especially those on a budget).

I can think of at least 2 GREAT benefits to making a hi-point your first gun... They're inexpensive and the weight of the gun helps a LOT in soaking up that recoil. Really helps to ease someone into shooting when they're not afraid of their pistol rearing back and blasting them in the forehead like in so many youtube videos of idiots with guns :D

s2mason
August 5, 2010, 12:43 AM
"Pretty much 'cause it's ugly... "

I still don't see where it's any uglier than a host of other more expensive autoloaders. Then again, to my eye, beauty comes with a "wheel" not a magazine. In any case, my point was the gun deserves a little more respect than it appears to get. It's a decent gun at a great price. Period. If your reason for purchasing is to have a range or hd gun, I think this fits the tasks quite well. If your looking for CC, this may not be the best choice. At the end of the day, it's the best deal going for $150 NIB.

Detractors; go ahead and bash, you just sound silly to those of us who respect a functional, "quality" gun that fits our needs at a price that pleases our wallets.

valorius
August 5, 2010, 02:02 AM
I'm curious as to why there seems to be some propensity to bash or denegrade the HP product? I don't follow alot of posts, so I admit to being rather green to this sort of dialouge. I just don't get it. It seems like there are alot of really bad guns out there that merit some degree of bashing (some.....), but the HP seems to have a track record of being a decent performing gun, at a decent price. What's the hang up?
Clearly the pistol is perceived as being big, ugly, crude, and cheap.

christcorp
August 5, 2010, 02:45 AM
People bash for a lot of reasons. If a gun obviously sucks, there's no need to bash. Everyone pretty much agrees that it suck. Once in a while you get a NOOB asking advice, and people say stay away from such and such. No one disputes it, therefor there's no bashing.

However, with the hi-point, there is another factor involved which leads to bashing. EGO!!! Most will not admit or agree, but it is human nature and it is true. When it comes to strictly talking about a home defense weapon; also used in a vehicle, camping, boating, etc...; as well as plinking and simply having fun; people have a real hard time justifying and rationalizing their $500-$1000 gun when someone bought one for $150 that does everything just as well as the $500-$1000 gun. Hard to swallow that.

That's not to say that the hi-point is equal in ALL capabilities or in all areas of quality. But for the purpose for which the hi-point was built and sold, people have a hard time justifying all the extra money they spent. So of course, they have to start bringing up all the capabilities that the hi-point lacks or sucks at. Of course, they don't want to hear that those are areas that the hi-point was not intended for. They'll talk about conceal carrying. They'll talk about it being heavy or ugly. They'll talk about it only having a 10 round magazine. Or about them being in a "GUN FIGHT". (Like they are in a Lethal Weapon Movie). All of these things are designed to detract from the purpose of the hi-point, and when used for what it was designed for, the $800 gun is not WORTH $650 more. It may be worth the extra money for all the OTHER CAPABILITIES, but not for the basic capabilities that a hi-point is designed to accommodate.

And that's why there's bashing on a hi-point and not a Bryco-Jennings. Almost everyone agrees that a Bryco-Jennings is not something you really want to trust your life with. Albeit it is better than nothing. The hi-point on the other hand is a gun that people actually "RECOMMEND". And for the person who simply wants a Home Defense gun, or similar, and wants to go plinking, practicing, and have a little fun; the hi-point is a very good choice. But the person who spent their $600+ for basically the same reason, will need to feel that they received something more for their extra $500-$800. They did, but then you get into comparing apples with oranges.

valorius
August 5, 2010, 04:44 AM
I do not have a hard time justifying the extra money i spent in the slightest. I believe that my chosen sidearms are clearly superior to the hi point for what i need them to do.

Simple as that.

Nasty
August 5, 2010, 06:18 AM
I believe...
I feel...
I think...

*I* am looking forward to the actual results and report of how it stands up in use (competition) far beyond the demands of most typical HP owners.

Everything else is opinion or anecdotal.

DustyVermonter
August 5, 2010, 06:22 AM
I love the ugliness, I would never try to make someone feel bad about buying a hi-point, to me it looks like a tool, I think a good knife and a High-Point .45 with a couple mags is a great defensive tool combo, and a country boy will survive

DustyVermonter
August 5, 2010, 06:28 AM
Sure beats walkin out with your **** in your hand, don't ya think? I think people with Kimbers puke at the thought of somebody getting a shot off quicker than them with their High-Point while their Kimber gets snagged in their $230 shark skin holster. Hi-Point is not my weapon of choice by any means but this thread has me thinking of taking $250 and puttin together an emergency kit to stash somewhere, Hi-Point .45, knife, first aid, MRE's, $50 bill,etc....not a bad idea

DustyVermonter
August 5, 2010, 06:34 AM
I'm gonna get a Hi-Point and get 'Ultra Elite' engraved on the slide and head to the range with it to watch people break their necks to turn and see my highly customized 'High-Point custom Ultra Elite'. Besides, Hi-Points and Hi-Powers are the same thing, just a slightly different name.

Kimber.45
August 5, 2010, 07:41 AM
I've followed this thread with some interest for a while now.
There are some here who I recognize from other forums, including Hi-Point forums and others whom I recognize from other forums and even a few whom I consider knowledgeable and whom I respect a lot.

If you see my posting name then you'll see that I am an owner of a Kimber 1911 (2 of them actually) along with many other makes and including a Hi-Point.

When my son wanted to get into shooting I purchased two C9's. One to try out for myself and one for my son as a starter gun. I had heard good and bad about Hi-Points and figured that I would see for myself.

The Hi-Point is inexpensive and the warranty is outstanding. Hi-Point rebuilt my C9 after several years of use. I have had friends who have liked the looks of my C9 over some of my other guns and though I consider it to be somewhat ugly it is no uglier than some other guns.

Too heavy for CC? No.
I don't have a scale but I think that the specs will show that my Kimbers weight more and that my SR9 with a full magazine will weigh more.

Reliability and durability issues? No.
It goes bang when you pull the trigger and when my C9 was worn I shipped it back to the factory where they did a complete rebuild free of charge.

Is the Hi-Points low capacity an issue? No.
The capacity is the same as my more expensive 1911's and not as high as my SR9 but then again, how many plan on getting in a situation where you need 18 rounds and how many actual situations in the past have required that many rounds.

Hi-Point vs Milsurp. I have two Milsurps, a Makarov and a Radom P64. Both are lower capacity and lower powered than the C9 with less ammo choice and availability as well as difficulty getting parts and no warranty whatsoever.

Appearance? Who cares if it works when you need it to. My son bought a Millenium Pro after having his Hi-Point for awhile, he wanted more bling. After a few range sessions the MP sits locked up while the HP is his shooting gun, he likes the HP better. He also has a very good job, even in these tough economic times and can afford pretty much what ever gun he wants. His two favorites are his "cheap pot metal guns" his Hi-Point C9 and his $300 AK.

Hi-Point vs higher end guns.
They all go bang. Some of the guns may be more accurate but in my hands I cannot tell, they all hit what I'm shooting at. The higher end guns do have a nicer fit and finish and some do have better ergonomics. Not everyone can afford the better fit and finish or the better ergonomics.

For those of you who can appreciate and afford better guns, don't be afraid of a Hi-Point. It's only $150, a fraction of some of your expensive toys, surely you can afford to "waste" that much.

I recommend Hi-Points to people.

s2mason
August 5, 2010, 02:36 PM
"Clearly the pistol is perceived as being big, ugly, crude, and cheap"

Perception of looks.... I'll give you that based on personal preferences.

Perception of crude and cheap.... obviously those who have owned/used them overwhemingly refute that sort of statement.

David E
August 5, 2010, 02:57 PM
durability issues? No.

when my C9 was worn I shipped it back to the factory

How many rounds had been fired through when it required rebuilding? How did you conclude that it needed to be rebuilt in the first place?

Thanks!

Onward Allusion
August 5, 2010, 03:46 PM
I was right out of college and paying off my student loans 20-something years ago when a "pot-metal" FIE Titan prevented great harm from my wife, her friend, and me one night. Hi-Points are many notches above a FIE Titan so if that's all someone can afford, I don't see the problem. They can protect themselves and their loved ones with a decent weapon.

Rail Driver (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=121192)
<SNIP>I hear about "Pot metal guns" but the truth is, the slide on a hi-point is made from an alloy of zinc, copper, aluminum and magnesium that holds up very well to the blowback operation of a hi-point. Bring me a pot made of zamak-3 in the package from a store and I'll hand over my gun collection. The Hi-points aren't made from pot metal, even if it's not stainless steel or hard chrome. In any case, the point is moot as the high-stress components in a hi-point are made from quality steel (barrel and other small parts such as springs and pins). The main reason hi-points are referred to as "pot metal guns" is because the zamak alloys (there are several, though zamak-3 is the most widely used) are called "white metal" or "pot metal" although they're not used for pots, but rather in die casting (one form of zamak is used to cast the rollers that are used to manufacture sheet metal).

Finally, do a google search for 'catastrophic pistol failure images' and you'll sift through hundreds of pictures of damaged, broken and destroyed glocks, 1911s and smith and wessons before you'll see a single cracked hi-point slide, much less anything worse. If the company really sold junk, they wouldn't still be in business.

Kimber.45
August 5, 2010, 04:36 PM
How many rounds had been fired through when it required rebuilding? How did you conclude that it needed to be rebuilt in the first place?

Thanks!
David,

My C9 had about 12,000 rounds through it. I determined that it needed to be sent in due to slide wear. BTW-The slide wear was my own fault for not seating the slide retainer pin completely when I tore the gun down for a thorough cleaning.

Hi-Point said that they replaced the slide, barrel and a few other items, almost everything except the frame.

Here is the kicker though: Hi-Points have flash marks on the plastic and I had trimmed the excess off of my C9. When I got the gun back there was excess flashing on the plastic again.
I think that they replaced the entire gun and just put my s/n on the new gun. Everything was new, slide, barrel, frame, everything.

Hi-Point was aware that the wear on the slide was my fault, they didn't care, they just took care of the problem better than expected with no questions or hassles.

I have other guns that I like better but Hi-Point service is second to none.

harmon rabb
August 5, 2010, 04:43 PM
Hi-Point service is legendary for not caring that you're the 4th owner, and for fixing issues (even replacing the entire gun) caused by the owner. Reload, and blow up your Hi-Point with a squib load followed by a round that works? You could tell them exactly what you did and they'd still replace it.

I've read all kinds of stories like this. It's pretty surprising really.

valorius
August 5, 2010, 05:27 PM
I believe...
I feel...
I think...

*I* am looking forward to the actual results and report of how it stands up in use (competition) far beyond the demands of most typical HP owners.

Everything else is opinion or anecdotal.
Hardly, but you need to be able to apply common sense thinking to the questions you're asking. Most answer themselves that way.

Clearly a Hi Point is an enormous pistol that would suck for CCW, my primary concern with a pistol.

Clearly the Hi Point is totally inappropriate for deep concealment/pocket carry.

Clearly a Hi Point pistol is a poor selection for home defense compared to any reasonably appropriate long arm.

Frankly, for most buying Hi Points, they would be far better served to skip the pistol models, and go straight for the 995 carbine.

Is this anecdotal, or just common sense?

Kimber.45
August 5, 2010, 05:37 PM
Hardly, but you need to be able to apply common sense thinking to the questions you're asking. Most answer themselves that way.

Clearly a Hi Point is an enormous pistol that would suck for CCW, my primary concern with a pistol.

Clearly the Hi Point is totally inappropriate for deep concealment/pocket carry.

Clearly a Hi Point pistol is a poor selection for home defense compared to any reasonably appropriate long arm.

Frankly, for most buying Hi Points, they would be far better served to skip the pistol models, and go straight for the 995 carbine.

Is this anecdotal, or just common sense?
I sometimes CCW the Hi-Point, it is smaller than my 1911's and smaller and lighter than my fully loaded SR9 so it is doable for CCW and negates your third thought. For many people who would purchase a C9 it might be their only weapon, CCW, HD, or vehicle.

That's what common sense tells me for a great many Hi-Point owners though not all.

Aceoky
August 5, 2010, 06:21 PM
Clearly a Hi Point pistol is a poor selection for home defense compared to any reasonably appropriate long arm..


HUH?
NO handgun can compete with a 12 gauge or rifle (long gun) so that has nothing to do with a Hi Point, and I've not seen anyone claiming otherwise at all??????:confused:

Clearly a Hi Point is an enormous pistol that would suck for CCW, my primary concern with a pistol.

sometimes CCW the Hi-Point, it is smaller than my 1911's and smaller and lighter than my fully loaded SR9 so it is doable for CCW

"Clearly that is opinion" LOL

valorius
August 5, 2010, 07:11 PM
Clearly there are far superior pistols for CCW than a 1911 Gov't model as well. It is a very large, heavy pistol.

I have held SR9's in my hands many times, they are much flatter than a Hi Point pistol- so are 1911's for that matter. Flatness being one of the single most important features in a carry gun. 'Excessive' weight is actually much easier to deal with in a CCW gun with a proper holster. I think the poster just stated that CCW-ing a Hi Point is "doable," not that it was by any means a good choice for that role, or that it was in any way superior to 1911s or SR9s in that role.

There are pistols that are far superior for CCW than a Ruger SR9 or 1911 Gov't model too, by the way. Like my P7 for instance- a very compact 9mm pistol with magnificent safety features and laser like accuracy at any kind of real world gunfighting range. It is a very solid CCW gun, but there are better selections than my P7 as well, seeing as it is quite heavy for it's compact size. (A P7 is dimensionally very similar to the new Walther PPS, but about 10oz heavier).

I stand by my statement that Hi Points suck for CCW. There are many pistols on the market that are clearly superior for CCW.

HUH?
NO handgun can compete with a 12 gauge or rifle (long gun) so that has nothing to do with a Hi Point, and I've not seen anyone claiming otherwise at all??????
There are a few pistols that have broken into "long gun capability", namely the FN Five Seven, MP-7, MP-5 PDW, and a few others, but for the most part you are correct. So what i was trying to say there is that if you want a hi point for home defense, skip the pistol models altogether, the 995 is far superior in that role. Sorry i was not more clear in that point...but that's the point i was driving at.

achildofthesky
August 5, 2010, 07:47 PM
247 posts and still waiting on the next installment from the OP...

Kimber.45
August 5, 2010, 10:18 PM
.


HUH?
NO handgun can compete with a 12 gauge or rifle (long gun) so that has nothing to do with a Hi Point, and I've not seen anyone claiming otherwise at all??????:confused:





"Clearly that is opinion" LOL
Of course no handgun can compete with a shotgun.
What was meant was that a person may not be able to afford a handgun and shotgun and then the handgun might be more versatile. It could be carried, kept in the vehicle or kept on the night stand.

One can't carry a shotgun or keep it in ones vehicle.

As stated. If I can carry my SR9 with 18 rounds or a full sized 1911 then I can carry a Hi-Point.
I never stated that the Hi-Point was better for CC or any other role. I said it was affordable and could serve several different roles for those on a tight budget.

I personally know people who are saving their money for a Hi-Point they cannot afford several weapons for different roles nor weapons that make for a better CCW. They do however still deserve the right and the ability to protect themselves and their families.

Let's look at it this way. If someone has to struggle to save enough for a Hi-Point then they are most likely residing an area that probably isn't as pleasant or safe as where you live and just might need that inexpensive weapon more than you may need your pricier weapon. Or perhaps you might feel that those less fortunate have no right for self protection?

I remember hearing something along the lines of "The right to keep and bear arms" and it never mentioned income or socio-economic status that I recall.

valorius
August 5, 2010, 10:33 PM
Agreed that you could certainly carry a Hi Point pistol if your wardrobe and the weather allow for it, but if you had an 18rd Ruger SR9 at your disposal, you would not consciously choose to carry a Hi Point over your Ruger except in very unusual circumstances.

It's like a Chevy Cavalier. You can off-road or race a Cavalier, but why? God invented 4x4's and Porsche's for a reason. Just as he invented Cavaliers for a reason.

All i'm saying is that while the Hi point serves a very useful niche role, it is just that: A niche weapon. On it's own merits it is not competitive with other niche weapons unless you are placing an over-riding importance on entry cost.

To say that a Hi Point pistol is as good as a HK P7 for CCW, or as good as a FN Five Seven for battlefield use, or as good as a target pistol for target use, or as good for home defense as a 18rd Ruger SR9 as mentioned above is just not accurate. To imply that a person with a niche use like one of those i just mentioned would be as well armed with a Hi Point as they would with it's much higher priced competitors is just not reasonable, and quite frankly, is dangerously bad advice IMO.

A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes. How can't it be? For what a Hi Point pistol or carbine is designed to be, it has NO peers in it's niche....it's niche being the cheapest possible entry price for a poor American to give himself a reliable means of multi-shot defense with a firearm.

To me, a $150 995 9mm Carbine offers a level of defense FAR in excess of the expenditure of cash required to own one, and is far more sensible a home defense selection if one can truly only afford a single firearm. Honestly i would rather have a 995 Carbine than a $2000 1911 for home defense/SHTF if it was my only firearm.

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