.22 rounds exploding at base


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JoeMal
July 11, 2010, 04:37 PM
At the range today with my Marlin 60, a Remington Thunderbolt round blew up at the base of the cartridge when I pulled the trigger. The spent cartridge stayed in the barrel, luckily I had some pliers with me so I simply pulled it out.

This also happened a few weeks ago. I do not remember what kind of ammo I was using the first time. After it happened the first time I quit shooting and went home. I immediately cleaned the rifle, and the next trip to the range was flawless. However, it happened again today so I'm curious as to why it does this? It's been fed maybe 100-150 rounds since the cleaning.

Is this simply an ammo problem or something more major with my rifle?


I did shoot more after the incident today without any other problems. Here are some pictures from my crappy camera phone

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t232/jomal206/506bcd14.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t232/jomal206/d16077b1.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t232/jomal206/9c63aad9.jpg

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highorder
July 11, 2010, 04:51 PM
Extractor detonated the round while feeding perhaps?...

I had something similar happen to me a few months back with some rimfire ammo.
It damaged my rifle and peppered my left hand. In my case, the entire casehead seperated.

I contacted the manufacturer of the ammo; they sent UPS to collect the case and remaining ammo. After they investigated, we talked and decided on a dollar amount that would make things right. I received a check two weeks later. According to them, a double charge was the likely culprit.

The ammo? Federal 36 grain 550 bulk-pack from WalMart.

Federal/ATK treated my very well.

NCsmitty
July 11, 2010, 04:55 PM
It's hard to see, but is the firing pin indent in or near the rupture? It's hard to say if it's ammo or rifle. I've not had any issues with my M60ss.
Just hang on to that case and watch to see if it happens again, or maybe a call to Marlin to see what they say.


NCsmitty

JoeMal
July 11, 2010, 04:56 PM
Extractor detonated the round while feeding perhaps?...I don't think so for me. This occurred when I actually pulled the trigger.

I do not have the case anymore, it joined the pile of other spent .22 casing on the ground I had already shot. Maybe I should have held on to this....


It damaged my rifleHow bad? Did it need repairs?

Federal/ATK treated my very well. As in more than replace the box of ammo? Did they pay you for 'suffering' or something of that sort? Almost like a settlement in a lawsuit? Care to tell how much?

rcmodel
July 11, 2010, 04:58 PM
I would agree that only three or four thngs can cause that.
1. Too much powder.
2. Weak defective case rim.
3. Carbon in the chamber, or crud on the bolt face and barrel shank holding the bolt out of battery.
4. Check the extractor notch in the barrel shank and make sure it isn't packed full of bullet lube and powder fouling and preventing the bolt from closing all the way.

Probably the first thing I would do is clean the snot out of the chamber with a new bronze bore brush.
A Bore-Snake or rod & just patches is a waste of time in this situation.

rc

highorder
July 11, 2010, 05:02 PM
The round split the wrist of my stock and destroyed my extractor.

Federal suggested I look for whatever replacement stock and parts I wanted. While they investigated the case and ammunition I sent back to them, I gave them my "cart total" from Midway USA and they happily cut me a check for the total.

A big +1 to Federal.

Snowdog
July 11, 2010, 06:07 PM
Way way back in my childhood (Boy Scouts), I experience the same thing twice with the same loaner pump .22LR while at a BSA sponsored range. The result was a spray of residue that smacked my face.
After the 2nd time, the rifle was removed from the line. The owner remarked that this particular rifle was "bad for that", indicating it had done it before. In my case, I think NCsmitty is spot on.

BruM
July 11, 2010, 06:16 PM
in the first PIX it looks like the case bulged at the rear.

SlamFire1
July 11, 2010, 06:17 PM
I am going to guess that the rifle fired with the bolt slightly out of battery.

Your pictures are horrible, to say the best about them, but I think the case head rupture could be due to a tiny amount of case head sticking out of the chamber.

On a blow back rifle there should be some trigger interruptor to prevent out of battery ignition.

With a blow back, the inertia of the breech blow keeps the bolt battery as barrel presure drops. These are designed to open up only when the pressure is less than brass rupture strength.

However, if the case is not properly supported up to the rim, you can expect sidewall rupture.

That is my best guess based on this Rorschach Ink Blot Test.

375shooter
July 11, 2010, 06:47 PM
My grandfather had an old single shot .22 that would occasionally produce a ruptured case, at the rim. Whenever it happened there was very loud report. It was a very long time ago, but I believe it was a headspace problem. The locking lug (bolt handle) was worn where it locks into the receiver recess. I'm not saying your rifle is worn, but maybe it has sloppy tolerances. It would be worth investigating.

rcmodel
July 11, 2010, 06:55 PM
It's a Marlin Model 60 semi-auto.
Headspace is pretty much self correcting in a blow-back semi-auto.

Either the cartridge was somehow defective.
Or something prevented the bolt from closing under recoil spring pressure.
Or something hit the primer and set it off before the round fully chambered.

I agree that from what I can see in the crappy pictures, the case is bulged for about 1/8" in front of the blown rim.
That means it went off before it was all inside the chamber for whatever reason.

rc

Maverick223
July 11, 2010, 07:00 PM
The round split the wrist of my stock and destroyed my extractor.

Federal suggested I look for whatever replacement stock and parts I wanted. While they investigated the case and ammunition I sent back to them, I gave them my "cart total" from Midway USA and they happily cut me a check for the total.

A big +1 to Federal.I had a similar thing happen to me, while shooting some CCI .17HM2 (happened on 3 occasions from same box, final one damaged the rifle). My experience was quite the opposite, CCI did nothing for me and claimed that the problem was that of the rifle, despite half of the box of shells having cracked case mouths strait out of the box. I no longer buy CCI or Speer products; OTOH Federal, Winchester (Olin), Aguila, and Eley treat me well so I continue to purchase their ammo instead...their loss.

:)

Blakenzy
July 11, 2010, 07:01 PM
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264878

Double Naught Spy
July 11, 2010, 07:48 PM
OOB ignition

KodiakBeer
July 11, 2010, 08:28 PM
As someone above pointed out, look for a dent where the firing pin strikes. If you bought the rifle used, it's quite possible some kid (I'm being charitable...) dry fired it enough to destroy the breech face. 22's are usually pretty soft metal since the pressures are low. If you dry fire them enough you can dent/bend the area enough to leave the base of the cartridge unsupported.

JoeMal
July 11, 2010, 09:48 PM
As someone above pointed out, look for a dent where the firing pin strikes. If you bought the rifle used, it's quite possible some kid (I'm being charitable...) dry fired it enough to destroy the breech face. 22's are usually pretty soft metal since the pressures are low. If you dry fire them enough you can dent/bend the area enough to leave the base of the cartridge unsupported. Bought NIB less than 3 months ago. Only dry fires it has is from me forgetting the safety is engaged; probably less than 10 of those

Dookie
July 11, 2010, 11:30 PM
Very simple. DON'T USE REMINGTON AMMO. It is CRAP, by crap I mean it is some of the worst ammo ever made. Explosions like this are not to uncommon.

JoeMal
July 12, 2010, 09:43 AM
Explosions like this are not to uncommon. Are you saying in general or with the Remington brand?

Dr T
July 12, 2010, 10:43 AM
If it were a centerfire, I would vote for excessive headspace.

You may have accumulated just enough residue on where the rim meets the barrel to cause a headspace problem but not enough to prevent it from firing. That would explain why it worked well after cleaning.

austin360
July 12, 2010, 01:16 PM
Shooting out of battery.

JoeMal
July 12, 2010, 01:57 PM
Shooting out of battery.
I am going to guess that the rifle fired with the bolt slightly out of battery.

So do you think this is a problem with my spring that isn't shutting the bolt properly? Or what else could be causing this?

highorder
July 12, 2010, 02:38 PM
I vote for crud build-up.

Something, somewhere didn't allow the round to fully chamber before ignition.
Scrub, clean, and find the macro setting on the camera. :)

JoeMal
July 12, 2010, 02:41 PM
and find the macro setting on the camera. If you would have read the original post, you would see that it was my camera phone I was using. I was on the range and all I had was my phone. I didn't think to bring the round home. Thanks for your time :cuss:

LemmyCaution
July 12, 2010, 04:27 PM
Clean the extractor recesses in the breech face. They clog up quickly on the M60.

And stay away from Remington rimfire ammunition. My experience has been that their brass is very brittle (I've had a lot of case necks disintegrate). Additionally, their powder is loaded very inconsistently.

A heavy powder charge, coupled with brittle brass and an out of battery discharge due to fouled extractor recesses would be a reasonable cause for your symptoms.

highorder
July 12, 2010, 04:38 PM
If you would have read the original post, you would see that it was my camera phone I was using. I was on the range and all I had was my phone. I didn't think to bring the round home. Thanks for your time

So sorry, my camera phone has a macro setting and it's nearly five years old.

I also used this guy to suggest tone -> :)

I'm surprised you didn't keep the case. Whenever anything out of the ordinary happens while I'm shooting, I save the evidence. I'm guessing others here do too.

JoeMal
July 12, 2010, 05:35 PM
So sorry, my camera phone has a macro setting and it's nearly five years old.So sorry that I'm not a camera phone extraordinaire. The last thing I was thinking about was the 'setting' my phone was on

I also used this guy to suggest tone -> People also use that guy to suggest sarcasm or wittiness...which in this case would be negative. It is extremely difficult to interpret meaning or tone through simple text.

I'm surprised you didn't keep the case. Whenever anything out of the ordinary happens while I'm shooting, I save the evidence. I'm guessing others here do too. I guess I'm just an idiot then



Thanks everyone for your replies...I will keep all of this in mind next time I'm out. I don't like the idea that my .22 will need a scrub every time I come home from the range...but I also know there are plenty of other people out there who also have picky .22s, so I guess I will join the club. I'm going to try shooting some other ammo types before I clean it though to see if it happens again. I really hate to give up on Remington ammo, even though 'teh netz tells me to stay away...it's extremely accurate out of my Marlin

highorder
July 12, 2010, 06:23 PM
I guess I'm just an idiot then

Nope, just a bit pissy.





;) is for sarcasm. Note I didn't use it.

wally
July 12, 2010, 07:18 PM
Happened way to often with Remington ammo, one of the reasons I've stopped buying it.

If it happens with other brands, a trip to the gunsmith would seem in order.

If you shoot enough you will get a defective round eventually, but four of these in a single 550 round bulk pack was the last straw with regards to buying Remington rimfire ammo for me.

jpwilly
July 13, 2010, 12:47 AM
Remington rimfire ammo is by far the worst quality from my experiance with it...YMMV.

Dr.Rob
July 13, 2010, 01:01 AM
I'd say your Marlin fired on a cartridge not fully seated. Now that could be that the bullet lube is fouling the chamber on that ammo (possible--some Remington 'black bullets have a lot of lube) or the feed ramp is shaving lead and creating a build up (also possible). Scrub out the chamber with a bronze brush take it back to the range. Load it, point it down range and CYCLE a couple magazines worth of live rounds, see if you are shaving lead off the bullets. If you are, call Marlin.

If that's not the case, you indeed may have a bad 'lot' of ammo. You can tie the gun to a rest/tree and fire off a few rounds until it malfunctions again, or just call Remington, report the problem and they will probably want to inspect the ammo.

Take more detailed pics if possible, so you can document everything.

The big gun and ammo mfg's are VERY good at policing up bad ammo and weapons--the liability of NOT doing so is too risky.

Ignition Override
July 13, 2010, 01:26 AM
As Dookie stated, avoid Remington .22 ammo.

Though I've never had your problems, in my very old Savage .22, only cheap green/yellow box Rem. and Thunderbolt cause a huge number of gas blowbacks into my face.

My only other ammo has been Federal and Winchester, with no blowbacks.

When this happens, I take the remaining handful of Thunderbolts (the worst), and throw them in the Loosahatchie River. No kidding here, at all. Thunderbolts blow back lots of gas in 3 or 4 of every 5 rounds, if not a higher percentage.

benzy2
July 13, 2010, 01:30 AM
I've had a few instances where a pack/brick of ammo just wasn't produced straight. I found it would be tough to load into my single six, it would give a bit extra force on the bolt rifles to chamber, and it would give OOB shots when fired through the semi autos.

As has been said, I would clean the rifle well first, switch ammo, then see if it does it again. I personally think it was the ammo at fault. Remington rimfire ammo is known to be dirty. Dirty chamber plus not quite right ammo can quickly lead to OOB firings.

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