380 flatpoint fmj


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Tony50ae
July 12, 2010, 01:18 AM
I just purchased a S&W PPK/S. While I was in Sports Authority yesterday, I noticed they had some white box Winchester 380 ammo. So I bought a box. I noticed though that the bullet is flatpointed instead of a more rounded design. I wonder why they did that? My 45acp Winchester ammo is rounded. I guess though if I were to use this ammo for self defense the flatpoint would do more tissue damage compared to a rounded design? Any thoughts?

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Steve C
July 12, 2010, 05:41 AM
Flat point will cut a nicer hole in paper but if its not at high enough velocity to upset the bullet (ie flatten further) it really has no advantage over a RN except in your imagination and will work no better for self defense. Not to say that solid bullets won't work for self defense if that's all you have. People have used them for a century before JHP's where invented. Pick a good expanding self defense round if you want a more effective stopper. In all situations you still have to put lead on target and in the right place.

gofastman
July 12, 2010, 06:39 AM
I would much rather have a FN bullet for handgun self defence, it will crush tissue more effectively than a pointed one -its not imagination- its terminal ballistics.

IMO a hardcast or FN FMJ bullet is the ideal projectile for a .380-but thats the subject of much debate

MedWheeler
July 12, 2010, 09:33 AM
I've never seen this round in this caliber but, if the edge between the conical portion and the flat tip is fairly defined ("sharp"), then the round should cause more damage when slamming into flesh than would a round-nose bullet. The difference would be less than between the RN and a HP, of course, but it would likely still exist.
There are some who believe that HP expansion might be unreliable in this caliber, particularly in the smallest guns for it, and they suggest RN or other solid loads, especially in winter months when clothing worn by attackers would be heavier. Your flat-tipped rounds might very well be a good compromise between the two. If they function reliably in your gun, go ahead and rock 'em.
Incidentally, I do keep a Bersa Thunder loaded, and it was my EDC until I came across a Kel-Tec PF-9. The Bersa is loaded with a HP round, but the spare mag is loaded with FNEB rounds (flat-nosed, enclosed base, kind of like a semi-jacketed semi-wadcutter.)

Steve C
July 12, 2010, 05:18 PM
If you go to Handloads .com Stopping power (http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=8) and compare the .38 spl 158gr standard pressure data using RNL and the .38 spl 158gr +P data using LSWC you will see the % is the same indicating no advantage to the flat nose SWC. This is MS data but lots of shooting since these rounds where used by police for decades. Why would one think that a flat nose bullet in the .380 would do any better than a round nose?

rcmodel
July 12, 2010, 05:23 PM
white box Winchester 380 ammoIf WWB ammo were loaded to reasonable velocity, the flat-point bullet could offer some slight advantage.

Unfortunately, it is not.
Various gun tests I have seen comparing WWB to other brands often shows it giving only 750 FPS, compared to some other brands 850 or 900.

A FP bullet going 150 FPS slower then a RN is not very likely to do nearly as well as the RN.

rc

Friendly, Don't Fire!
July 12, 2010, 05:29 PM
I have the same exact ammo.
Nothing wrong with it at all.
The lead is visible in the front, center. The rear is supposed to be jacketed and these are supposed to cut down on lead atomization when shooting steel plate indoors.

Robert101
July 12, 2010, 07:29 PM
I load the round nose FMJ in my 380's (both Bersa Thunder and Browning DBA). If the FN feed reliably I wouldn't have an issue using it. Right now I don't see a need to change as the round nose works fine and maximizes penetration.

Dr.Rob
July 12, 2010, 11:16 PM
In the days before hollow point bullets, flat points were one experiment to increase the wounding potential/lethality of certain auto pistol rounds without creating feed problems.

Some lawmen swore by them, others thought it was a gimmick.

My view is if you are stuck with FMJ for defense, use every advantage you can find.

searcher451
July 13, 2010, 11:01 AM
The good thing about the Winchester WB .380 round is that it generally works in the S&W-made PPK/S -- and not everything does, in my experience. It makes for a fine range/practice round and cycles well enough to allow you to get a good feel for the pistol. You'll want to experiment with some good JHP rounds if you intend to carry the pistol for self-defense.

Tony50ae
July 13, 2010, 07:24 PM
The good thing about the Winchester WB .380 round is that it generally works in the S&W-made PPK/S

That is good to know. I just picked up the pistol today(14 day waiting period in Hawaii). Now just gotta go and shoot it!

Shawn Dodson
July 13, 2010, 07:46 PM
The difference in wounding effects between flat-point and round-nose bullets is easily seen when shooting a paper target. A flat nose bullet punches a hole the diameter of the flat point and then the smooth contours of the ogive "stretches" and tears the periphery when it passes through.

The hole produced by a round nose bullet consist of stellate (star-like) tears, which usually can be folded back in place and very little paper is missing. The bullet "stretches" and tears the paper but crushes (pulverizes) very little.

The difference in soft tissues is similar to that seen in the paper target. The flat-point bullet crushes a larger diameter permanent cavity. The streamlined contours of a round-nose bullet allows soft tissues to stretch and "flow" around the bullet as it penetrates resulting in less pulverized tissue.

Deaf Smith
July 13, 2010, 08:07 PM
In my TCP Winchester FP-FMJ is what I use. I really just don't think that barrel length will give any good expansion AND penitration. Hence the FP-FMJ.

Deaf

gofastman
July 13, 2010, 10:37 PM
If you go to Handloads .com Stopping power and compare the .38 spl 158gr standard pressure data using RNL and the .38 spl 158gr +P data using LSWC you will see the % is the same indicating no advantage to the flat nose SWC. This is MS data but lots of shooting since these rounds where used by police for decades. Why would one think that a flat nose bullet in the .380 would do any better than a round nose?
If you think that that is actual science than I'm not going to discus this with you any more. :banghead:

Read this if you want a real scientist description of "stopping power"
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html#introduction

Dr.Rob
July 14, 2010, 03:41 AM
Thing is flat points were also marketed in pocket pistols primarily in the early 1920's: .25, .32 and .380. It was much later in the game, say starting with the 38 super that flat points made much difference. Hornady used to sell a 200gr FPJ in 45 ACP (early 80's) that a lot of 'combat' (read competitive) shooters swore by as they scored like a wadcutter but fed like RN FMJ.

A lot of 9mm's available in the US pre 1960's (Lugers, Walthers, BHPs and Colts) only fed FMJ reliably. The FPJ was an attempt to make those rounds more suitable for defense before S&W entered the 9mm market.

Gimmick or not, it's a concept the ammo companies keep coming back to.

Tony50ae
July 14, 2010, 03:04 PM
Well I won't be using the PPK/S for self defense anytime soon as in Hawaii no CCW and at home I have more appropiate options. However will be moving to Louisana in about 2 years and the PPK/S might be used a CCW. I will probably use the FP FMJ round as I don't really think the 380 has enough bullet mass to both expand and penetrate. I rather get penetration. And just like the military taught me, keep shooting till the threat stops.

toivo
July 14, 2010, 03:22 PM
I've seen these in .32 also--in fact, I have a box that I bought thinking I was getting regular round-nose FMJ. My concern for the .32 caliber is that shorter rounds have a tendency to rimlock in semi-auto magazines, and the flat-nose rounds are definitely shorter than round-nose. I know that Kel-Tec makes a magazine adapter for the use of hollow-point .32, and I wonder if it would be advisable to use the adapter for flat-nose too. Has anybody used these flat-nose .32 in a Kel-Tec P32?

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