R. Lee Ermy Springfield vs. Enfield


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gunnutery
July 14, 2010, 02:34 AM
Sorry if this has already been posted, I've been camping for a couple days and just found this video at thefirearmblog.com (www.thefirearmblog.com).

Springfield M1903 vs. Enfield No.1 Mk3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsDLjfA1Ylw

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Al Thompson
July 14, 2010, 08:49 AM
The guy running the Enfield had no clue about how to run that rifle. :rolleyes:

chicharrones
July 14, 2010, 09:11 AM
Pure entertainment gold. :D

Dr T
July 14, 2010, 12:11 PM
To get an idea of how fast an Enfield can be run, see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m1yN-3n0FU

Robert
July 14, 2010, 12:30 PM
.303 bullet diameter is actually .311 which is bigger than the 30-06. And while not the fastest ever he did a decent job running the No1, though not the best I have ever seen.
"The Garand is the greatest rifle ever made":rolleyes:
Oh no here we go again...
The guy in the second video is using the proper rapid fire method, grip the bolt handle with the thumb and fore finger and fire the rifle with the middle finger. Using that method one can empty the mag on a No1 very quickly.

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 01:12 PM
"whaddaya say, there, wellington?" LOL :D

wlewisiii
July 14, 2010, 02:29 PM
Of course he left out the Mauser 98k, best of the three... :evil:

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 02:39 PM
By what measure? Accuracy? No... reliability? No... Mag capacity? No...

Recoil, perhaps? :D

rodinal220
July 14, 2010, 04:01 PM
The 30-06 was the first military round to use smokless powder??I thought the French 8mm Lebel of the 1880s was the first?You gotta love these shows,I guess not much left in the budget for a proper historian/researcher.

Float Pilot
July 14, 2010, 04:19 PM
The 30-06 was the first military round to use smokeless powder??I thought the French 8mm Lebel of the 1880s was the first?You gotta love these shows,I guess not much left in the budget for a proper historian/researcher.

Yeap that is pure BS.
The 8mm Lebel,
the 30-40 Krag AKA .30 US,
the 6.5x55 Mauser,
the 7x57mm Mauser,
7.65 Mauser,
6mm Lee Navy
and even the improved smokeless 303 Brit,, all pre-date the 30-06 by several years.

Just think of all of the other BS that people believe just because it is on TV.

Robert
July 14, 2010, 04:34 PM
The 8mm Lebel was indeed the first smokeless military cartridge, introduces in 1886.

Maverick223
July 14, 2010, 04:42 PM
Yeap that is pure BS....and the M1 Garand isn't the rifle with the longest service life, the M16 has been used for far longer (unless you count drill use :rolleyes:).

:)

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 05:04 PM
The 8mm Lebel was indeed the first smokeless military cartridge, introduces in 1886.
When was the .30-30 introduced?

Float Pilot
July 14, 2010, 05:07 PM
...and the M1 Garand isn't the rifle with the longest service life, the M16 has been used for far longer (unless you count drill use ).

That is for sure:

The 1903, 03A1 and 03A3 variants served for about 41-42 years in combat.

The M1 Garand from the very late 30s until 1960 or so...about 21-22 years

The M16, A1, A2, M4 series , 1963 to present, 47 years and counting

The 1894, 1896 and m/38 Swede Mausers were in service from 1895 until the late 1980s and early 90s and some m/94 carbines are still in use. So 80-90 years.

The AK-47 and variants: 1947-48 to present. = 63 years and counting

The Lee Metford / Lee Enfield rifle variants: 1888 to present
= 122 years and counting.

Robert
July 14, 2010, 05:08 PM
30-30 was never a military cartridge that I know of and it was introduced in 1895.

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 05:14 PM
I knew it wasn't military; I just wanted to know when it came into being. thanks :cool:

I have been told several times that the .30-30 was the first "civilian" smokeless round... does that sound accurate to everyone?

surbat6
July 14, 2010, 05:18 PM
30-30 was never a military cartridge that I know of and it was introduced in 1895.
Actually, the U.S. military purchased quite a few .30-30 Winchester Model 94 saddle ring carbines for defense plant and border guards during WWI. The carbines are marked with the ordnance flaming bomb and "U.S." on top of the receiver ring.
Sorry to be a nit-picker!

Robert
July 14, 2010, 05:18 PM
I have been told several times that the .30-30 was the first "civilian" smokeless round
I believe that to be correct.
Sorry to be a nit-picker!
Not at all. I learn something new everyday!

Float Pilot
July 14, 2010, 05:25 PM
When was the .30-30 introduced?

Winchester started work on it around 1891 while they were working on the 30-40 and 6mm Lee Navy projects. The 1894 rifle was a drawing board project just starting serous work-ups.

The 30-30 (known as 30 WCF) was first cataloged in their new 1894 rifle during the 1895 sales season.

CapnMac
July 14, 2010, 05:27 PM
And, the .30-1903 predates the 30-06 for US smokeless powder use.

Dang it, now I have to go look up the 6mm Lee.

Hatterasguy
July 14, 2010, 05:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x3lOZ4yX6Y

I think the Enfield and K31 are two of the fastest bolt guns ever made. The Mauser action is nice, but it just can't keep up.

KodiakBeer
July 14, 2010, 05:46 PM
That clip is actually pretty laughable! Neither Ermy or his opponent know how to shoot a bolt action rifle! Totally clueless!

That's not surprising really, since the military stopped teaching the fundamentals in the 1940's. Maybe snipers are still taught the correct way?

The trick to fast and accurate bolt rifle shooting is to not break your cheek weld as you work the bolt. It's that simple. You don't have to (you absolutely shouldn't!) lift your face as you work the bolt. Maintain your sight picture instead of re-acquiring after each shot.

Float Pilot
July 14, 2010, 05:48 PM
The 6mm Lee Navy and semi-straight pull (actually a camming action) Winchester rifle of 1895 were designed by James Paris Lee.
Pre-dating the 1903 in calibers 1903-03 and 1903-06 by 8 and 11 years in US service.
It used smokeless powder and fired a 135 grain bullet at about 2,470 to 2,500 fps. The Navy and Marines wanted something that would penetrate boiler plates at 100 yards. Some machine guns were also chambered for this caliber.
They were probably thinking about being able to disable small boats and medium size water crafts during brown water battles like those that were occurring in China.

The Navy and Marines used the 6mm Lees during the Boxer rebellion and during the Spanish American War. It used a clip feed similar to the Mausers of the time so it was more advanced than the Krag rifles, BUT.. it was a weak design and did not do well in combat. Plus the barrels were prone to fast wear.

Winchester actually had to extend their factory test firing range when they developed this cartridge.

There were civilian versions and factory ammo was made up until the 1930s. There were also a couple of weight and velocity variations. I have a couple boxes of it around here someplace but can't find them right now.

Hatterasguy
July 14, 2010, 05:52 PM
The trick to fast and accurate bolt rifle shooting is to not break your cheek weld as you work the bolt. It's that simple. You don't have to (you absolutely shouldn't!) lift your face as you work the bolt. Maintain your sight picture instead of re-acquiring after each shot.

Yep, the only rifle I can't do this with all the time is my Mosin, the bolt can be kind of hard to work and forces me to break my sight picture.

A properly used bolt action can put almost as much aimed affective fire downrange as a semi. Thats why the British kept using the Enfield when everyone else was going to semi autos.

Robert
July 14, 2010, 06:01 PM
The way the Mad Minute was described to me, by a former SAS Major, is:
Target at 300
Load 5 rounds, make ready. Fire 15 rounds on target in less than one minuet.

So you fire the 5 rounds, do a 10 round reload and continue firing.

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 06:01 PM
Now try doing that shooting left-handed. :D

Robert
July 14, 2010, 06:05 PM
There is no left handed. There is only the Sgt. Mjr's baton.

earlthegoat2
July 14, 2010, 06:32 PM
Of course he left out the Mauser 98k, best of the three...

Hehe

and the P-17 is the best of the 4.

Followed by the Lee Enfield. Im not really a fan of the P-14 though. Kind of the redheaded stepchild even though it came out before the P-17. I guess I just like that rifle in 30-06.

KodiakBeer
July 14, 2010, 06:38 PM
I think all of the bolt action rifles of that period are pretty fine weapons. I prefer the Mauser, but I wouldn't argue very much if someone liked another. They all have their strong points.

GoWolfpack
July 14, 2010, 06:43 PM
And the lesson in all this is:

Never allow yourself to be filmed attempting to perform complex manipulations quickly.


Neither Ermy or his opponent know how to shoot a bolt action rifle! Totally clueless!


I know this is hyperbole, but really? Since it all appeared safe and no one got hurt, I'm pretty sure neither was totally clueless as to the manipulation of a bolt action rifle.



That's not surprising really, since the military stopped teaching the fundamentals in the 1940's. Maybe snipers are still taught the correct way?


To my knowledge, limited though it may be, it is not within the purview of a modern military sniper to lay down volume fire with a bolt action rifle. However they are, most likely, taught to maintain their sight picture while manipulating their rifles.

Vern Humphrey
July 14, 2010, 06:50 PM
Now try doing that shooting left-handed.
That's actually the fastest way to shoot a bolt-action (and the British taught that technique.) The rifle is rested on a sand bag, and the left hand holds the pistol grip and works the trigger, while the right hand works the bolt.

Note that the shooter in the video keeps his hand on the bolt handle -- he's working the trigger with his little finger -- also a technique taught by the British.

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 07:18 PM
That's actually the fastest way to shoot a bolt-action (and the British taught that technique.) The rifle is rested on a sand bag, and the left hand holds the pistol grip and works the trigger, while the right hand works the bolt.
You have the rifle on your left shoulder? :confused: Without removing your cheek from the stock? Show me. :)

KodiakBeer
July 14, 2010, 07:21 PM
I know this is hyperbole, but really? Since it all appeared safe and no one got hurt, I'm pretty sure neither was totally clueless as to the manipulation of a bolt action rifle.


It isn't hyperbole at all. Neither of these shooters would have passed the basic boot camp shooting course (prior to 1940ish) without knowing the proper technique. It's a lost art.

Vern Humphrey
July 14, 2010, 07:28 PM
You have the rifle on your left shoulder? Without removing your cheek from the stock? Show me.
The cheek is not on the stock -- the head is held up to use the volley sight.

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 07:47 PM
The cheek is not on the stock -- the head is held up to use the volley sight.
Ah... hence the confusion. I was responding to this:

The trick to fast and accurate bolt rifle shooting is to not break your cheek weld as you work the bolt. It's that simple. You don't have to (you absolutely shouldn't!) lift your face as you work the bolt. Maintain your sight picture instead of re-acquiring after each shot.

KodiakBeer
July 14, 2010, 07:53 PM
Ah... hence the confusion. I was responding to this:

Quote:
The trick to fast and accurate bolt rifle shooting is to not break your cheek weld as you work the bolt. It's that simple. You don't have to (you absolutely shouldn't!) lift your face as you work the bolt. Maintain your sight picture instead of re-acquiring after each shot.

Are you suggesting that it's desirable to break your sight picture after each shot?

Maverick223
July 14, 2010, 08:04 PM
I think the Enfield and K31 are two of the fastest bolt guns ever made. The Mauser action is nice, but it just can't keep up.Agreed, the Mauser is my favorite of the aforementioned, but it isn't nearly as fast to operate.

The way the Mad Minute was described to me, by a former SAS Major, is:
Target at 300
Load 5 rounds, make ready. Fire 15 rounds on target in less than one minuet.

So you fire the 5 rounds, do a 10 round reload and continue firing.Why would you load only 5 to begin with?

:)

1KPerDay
July 14, 2010, 08:47 PM
Are you suggesting that it's desirable to break your sight picture after each shot?
Are you suggesting that it's possible to do as you suggest when shooting left handed? That was my only point. Holy crap... the drama... :D

KodiakBeer
July 15, 2010, 03:00 PM
Are you suggesting that it's possible to do as you suggest when shooting left handed? That was my only point. Holy crap... the drama..

I see... Yeah, lefties are at a disadvantage with a bolt rifle.

Nico Testosteros
July 15, 2010, 05:04 PM
I think all of the bolt action rifles of that period are pretty fine weapons. I prefer the Mauser, but I wouldn't argue very much if someone liked another. They all have their strong points.

I'm sorry. I just had to repost that. It didn't get the acknowledgement it deserved.

Robert
July 15, 2010, 05:22 PM
Why would you load only 5 to begin with?

I have no idea, but that was what he told me and his being a retired SAS major, I have no reason to doubt him.

Maverick223
July 15, 2010, 05:51 PM
I have no idea, but that was what he told me and his being a retired SAS major, I have no reason to doubt him.I don't doubt it either, it just sparked my curiosity.

:)

Al Thompson
July 15, 2010, 07:27 PM
Probably to force the reload. :) 20 rounds may have deemed too many and a five round reload may be too easy.

MutinousDoug
July 15, 2010, 07:37 PM
Are you suggesting that it's desirable to break your sight picture after each shot?
I find it impossible not to "break your sight picture" when operating a 1903-A3 bolt as the root of the bolt handle obscures the sights as soon as the bolt is unlocked. Additionally, for me anyway, when I use my right thumb to anchor my cheek weld, the safety touches my nose and the striker hits my cheek bone a good 1/2" before the bolt throw is complete. I can leave my cheek on the stock but I have to get my head out of the way so my cheek weld is disrupted anyway. I have a sporterized '98 Mauser whose bolt only touches my cheek on operation but that one has a monte carlo stock and 7X scope so I wouldn't compare it to a service rifle.

Hatterasguy
July 15, 2010, 07:53 PM
I can do it with my K31, but you need to make sure to get a very positive ejection on the K31 or the spent case will bounce off your head on the way down. The action is not ment to be limp wristed, grab it and work in like you mean it.:D


Since most soliders wear helmets its not such a problem.

SlamFire1
July 15, 2010, 09:24 PM
The trick to fast and accurate bolt rifle shooting is to not break your cheek weld as you work the bolt. It's that simple. You don't have to (you absolutely shouldn't!) lift your face as you work the bolt. Maintain your sight picture instead of re-acquiring after each shot.

You need a real long buttstock to do that.

I always have to get my face out of the way with any military surplus bolt rifle.

The race between Gunny and the Lee Enfield is contrived. I think Gunny was going slow for effect. But the Lee Enfield was by far the better battle rifle. Herbert McBride placed the 03 behind the Lee Enfield, primarly due to the sights.

The 03 was a poor design for a battle rifle. In every point of departure from a M98, the action is less reliable. The 03 was a poor design for a target rifle. The sights are just awful. Battle sight has a 547 yard zero, the windage is graduated in 4 MOA marks. I have a P.J. O'hare micrometer for elevation, totally impossible to precisely set the thing without that gadget. While new 03's were pretty slick, or so I have read, the rebuilt ones I own, some are slick, some are just as rough as any Mauser rebuild.

Now the Lee Enfield: slick, reliable, great sights for snap shooting, ten rounds. Awful buttstock, but so was the straight grip 03 stock.

While a properly bedded 03 will shoot about half the group of a No1 MkIII, that does not matter that much in combat.

Hate to say, but the Brits built a better battle bolt gun.

At least we left them in the dust with the Garand.:D

Steve Marshall
July 16, 2010, 08:21 AM
At one time, the Brits trained all rifleman to shoot 30 shots a minute- presmably volley fire. However, in 1914, Sergeant Snoxall hit a 12" Bull 38 times in one minute. That, at 300 yards. Try that with your favorite boltgun.
Hell, for 99.99% of us, he'd beat an AR.

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