What's "Legging Out" mean?


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Lovesbeer99
July 14, 2010, 02:23 PM
For the matter, whats a leg match?

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SlamFire1
July 14, 2010, 02:55 PM
One old military shooter told me that he had more legs than a bag full of spiders! :D

You shoot to earn enough points to be awarded the Distinguished Rifleman award. (You can get Distinguished in pistol but I don't know the rules.) For rifle it took 30 points.

It used to be that you could only get leg points shooting in "Leg matches". A Leg match was a 50 round XTC match. Ten rounds standing and ten sitting rapid fire at 200 yards. Ten more round prone rapid fire at 300 yards and 20 rounds slow fire at 600 yards. No sighters, you simply take your best elevation and wind guess and shoot for score.

The system was skewed in favor of the military. It used to be you shot LC ammo issued at the match. Military shooters could look up the lot number in their data books and see the last zero they shot. Civilian shooters really had it hard, because you had to beg ammo off military buds to get zeros, and then it was highly probably that the first time you ever saw the issue lot was at the leg match. It was very seldom that a civilian earned a Distinguished. Things changed when the military stopped supporting leg matches, so now you get to shoot your own ammo.

The point system is confusing for regional Leg matches. The first place guy gets 10 points and a Regional Gold Medal, the second place guy gets a Silver Medal but the point value is less, and it depends on the number of shooters, which I forgot.

What I do remember is if you shoot at Perry and get any Medal, you get 10 points.

I got a two Silvers at Perry and a Regional Gold with an M1a, and that was my 30 points.

Anyone who earned the Distinguished the old fashioned way, XTC that is, should be very proud of their accomplishment.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Misc/DistinguishedRiflemanDecal.jpg

Howard Roark
July 14, 2010, 04:24 PM
The system was skewed in favor of the military.

The other side of that is that today for civilian matches anybody and their sister can be wrangled to shoot to run up the total number of shooters to give out more legs.

Military leg matches don't let just anyone shoot. Most military EIC match shooters had to shoot well enough to earn their slot. This weeds out the weak links and forces one to shoot higher scores to earn points.

Lovesbeer99
July 14, 2010, 04:35 PM
Ok, but what does legging out mean? Does that mean you won the match or does that mean you earned your distinguished?

W.E.G.
July 14, 2010, 04:40 PM
Means you earned your Distinguished Rifleman's badge.

You do not necessarily have to win any matches at all to get your badge.
You just need to be in the top 10% of the "non-distinguished" shooters at EIC matches on enough occasions to earn 30 leg points.

If there are other shooters who already hold the "Distinguished" classification shooting in the EIC matches where you are the high "non-distinguished" shooter, they can win the match, and they win the EIC medals, while you only get leg points.

armoredman
July 14, 2010, 04:43 PM
Interesting. Never heard of that before.

W.E.G.
July 14, 2010, 04:55 PM
Remember too, at any particular EIC match, the "already-Distinguished" shooters cannot count toward the required number of shooters to issue leg points.

For instance if there are 13 shooters at a match, four of whom are "already-Distinguished," there are not enough shooters for anybody to be awarded leg points. (i.e. You gotta have at least 10 non-distinguished shooters at an EIC match, for anybody to get leg points). I think the top shooter in a too-few-shooters EIC match may still earn some sort of EIC medal, even though no leg points were ever on the table. After all, if you had an EIC match where there were 90 already-Distinguished shooters, and only five non-distinguished shooters, it seems like somebody should still get some sort of EIC award for winning the match.

Generally:
http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Distinguished_History.pdf

The Distinguished Badge is awarded when a competitor accumulates 30 ‘points’
earned in EIC matches. Points are awarded on the basis of an individual’s
placement among the top 10% of non-distinguished competitors in the match.
The first one sixth are awarded ten points, the next one third get eight points and
the remaining competitors earn six points. Points accumulate throughout a
competitor’s lifetime until Distinguished status is attained, so that points earned
as a member of the Armed Forces in bull’s-eye competition will transfer toward
designation as a civilian, and vice versa. It is also required that one must earn at
least an eight or ten-point "hard” leg by placing in the top 50% of competitors in
the top ten percent.

Jon Coppenbarger
July 14, 2010, 06:45 PM
Many consider a leg this way. think of a stool with 3 legs. If you get 10 points you have a leg and it continues in progression as such. 20 points 2 legs and when you get 30 points you have 3 legs BUT it may not be enough to leg out.

The rules are still the same and you need 30 points to get your distinguised rifleman or pistol badge. within that you MUST have at least 1 hard leg (8 or 10 point leg) to make up the 30 points required.

The rules changed a few years ago to a real % system to allow some folks in smaller venues to attain points. lets just say it is easier to get folks for a match in california or texas than wyoming or montana. You now can get a 6 point leg with only 6 non distinguised shooters in the match. you have to have 16 non distinguised shooters to get 8 points. so say 6 shooters you get a 6 point leg, 16 shooters you get one 8 point and one 6 point leg. 26 shooters you get two 8 point and one 6 point leg. I believe once you reach 36 shooters you get one 10 point, two 8 point and one 6 point leg. (I believe that to be correct but not 100% sure as its been a few years since I had to think of that).

If you shoot at the national matches at Camp Perry Ohio and if you finish in the top 10% of non distinguised shooters you are awarded 10 points.

A good example of what it takes is that you show up and say you have 24 non distinguised shooters you must either finish 1st or 2nd to attain any points and the other 22 shooters go home without any points.

At a leg match they also give awards 1st is a gold. 2nd is a silver and 3rd is a bronze medal. also as you attain the 10 point, and 20 point stage of trying to get your distinguised badge you get a medal for it. a bronze when you reach 10 points, silver when you reach 20 points and a gold distinguised medal like the one in one of the previous post WHEN you leg out.

I have known a few folks to get over 30 points and not attain distinguised marksman. Remember you can win many 6 point and that one 4 point leg forever and not ever get a 8 or 10 point hard leg.

It is not easy to do but if a person really puts in the time in a few years it can be done. There are also rules that you can only shoot 3 matches a year if you are non distinguised and a 4th match only to be shot at the nationals.

So you can see how hard it is to win at it and to do it in a short time is amazing. I have seen in my life time folks get 30 points and leg out in a year. but they more than likely if you look up their records they shot them for awhile and after others before them legged out they became the best shooter locally in the state or region and they did it.

If you want to get the award it can be done. there are a few of us here. As one ohter stated when the ammunition was issued in the M1A days I could never quite make the cut. I layed off from shooting for 10 years and got back into it in like 02. It took me like 3 years untill I recieved my first 10 point award and I got 18 points in 7 days at two different matches in two different states. The following year I picked up another 10 points follew a few weeks later my final 10 at camp perry. so I had 38 points in 4 legs to get the award. my number is 1762.

Good luck jon If you go just ask anyone from colorado and then can tell you where to find me after the matches. please stop by and say hi!!

john here on this site gave me some great advice years ago and he was correct and it did not take me long after that to do it.

jon

WNTFW
July 14, 2010, 06:53 PM
I take it that the system is designed so you can not just chase points.

Jon Coppenbarger
July 14, 2010, 06:58 PM
what do you mean by chasing? I could answer it but not exactly sure. you are always chasing points but I know some folks who travel to different parts of the country to shoot because they have more points to give out. but with you only being able to shoot only 4 matches a year and one of those must be at the nationals its not easy. If thats what you mean?

WNTFW
July 14, 2010, 08:39 PM
Jon,
Sort of. When I was involved in racing they had guys that were not as good a driver and as others but would make every race in a go-kart series and get more points than the guy who would beat them at the 4 races he made. Quantity over quality in that case. No guarantee the "better" driver could have kept it up. If you wanted to place high you had to make every race anyway.

I thought there was a time limit on becoming Distinguished. I never really payed much attention to the process. The match limit & hard leg takes care of the points chasing in my use of the term.

If they handed out D. R. badges to everbody it wouldn't mean anything. There are few D. R. down here. I have yet to be mistaken for one. I do resemble a blind pig finding an acorn on occasion.

Howard Roark
July 14, 2010, 09:17 PM
People also chase points by going to matches where they think the legs will go cheap.

I legged out in 4 matches in 9 months. The first leg I got was a 6 pointer. I had been shooting so poorly I was going to quit highpower if I didn't place in that match. My first hard leg was at Tullahoma when the shoe in winner choked at the 600 yard line and crossfired.

The moral of the story is never give up, you never know what the other shooters might do.

lonegunman
July 18, 2010, 01:40 AM
I legged pistol in 2003, it uses the same system as riflr and is not skewed towards military. It is skewed towards shooters skilled with iron sighted pistols. If you can shoot an iron sighted 1911 with ball ammo you can win points. These\days softball ammo is allowed and handloads. I did mine with full power ball and a 1911, just like the good old days.

Over the years I've finished first leather as often as I placed. I shoot them now to win the medals, I'm working on making a row of them down one wall of my gun room. It is easier after you leg.

Jon Coppenbarger
July 18, 2010, 08:22 PM
I agree after I legged out I have not missed a cut. did it in 05 with a rifle. Did shoot my first eic pistol earlier in the month. i had a blast and loved that it was such a short match with the pistol. Finished 17 out of 39 shooters with a 1918 made in 1911 and 1960's ball ammunition.
fun!!!

Soupy44
July 19, 2010, 02:37 AM
What has been said here only applies to high power. So to put my smallbore two cents in, the rules are different for smallbore.

There are 4 legs in smallbore. Each, you have to place in the top 10% of shooters in a combination of 4 regionals, sectionals, and Perry. But at least one of the legs has to come from Perry. But here's the kicker in smallbore: that's top 10% of EVERYBODY! Distinguished or not. So you have to place in the top 30-35ish in 3P and top 25-30ish in prone at Perry. Looking at the list each year, only about 4-8 legs are awarded per year combined.

Jon Coppenbarger
July 19, 2010, 07:14 AM
I seen that for small bore and its tough. I also thought you could win points for events like placing in the pan-am and olympics also?

I was glad when they started to award medals for small bore.

taliv
July 19, 2010, 08:24 AM
still, it's not like going Distinguished in rifle is easy. There are over 1000 competitors every year at Perry alone and countless thousands shooting EIC matches regionally, and yet there are still fewer than 2000 with the rifleman badge.

In 1990, the badge numbers were in the 900s, so in the past 20 years, 1000 people have legged.

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