Problem with S&W Model 64


PDA






duns
July 16, 2010, 06:44 PM
Just bought a S&W Model 64-5 from JGSales. Fired it for the first time today. Put 100 rounds through it. At first seemed OK but later had problems, wondered if maybe it was because it was getting warm. Sometimes after firing two or three shots from a cylinder, the trigger pull would seem to get very heavy but it would still fire. Other times, the cylinder would partially rotate then something would lock up and I could not fire it. Could those more knowledgeable please tell me what might be wrong?

If you enjoyed reading about "Problem with S&W Model 64" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
oldfool
July 16, 2010, 07:03 PM
way to little info to say
but check the sticky here on "revolver checkout" 1st
(might not hurt to check end shake in particular, and/or look real close for buildup on top strap near forcing cone)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=1430

duns
July 16, 2010, 07:15 PM
way to little info to say
but check the sticky here on "revolver checkout" 1st
(might not hurt to check end shake in particular, and/or look real close for buildup on top strap near forcing cone)I looked at the sticky. It says to "thumb the hammer back" and while holding the trigger back, lower the hammer gently down, then check for cylinder play. This revolver has been modified to be DAO so I can't thumb the hammer back. So I wasn't sure what to do. If I pull and hold the trigger back and try to wiggle the cylinder, there is absolutely no play in any direction. I don't see any visible anomaly on the top strap near the forcing cone. The stainless steel looks like new apart from some miniscule gouges and nicks on the frame just above the trigger guard.

Photo:
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad274/riskassessor/DSC02206.jpg

Phydeaux642
July 16, 2010, 08:28 PM
I wonder if something might behind the ejector star that is causing it to bind up. It wouldn't take a whole lot to cause a problem.

frankt
July 16, 2010, 08:31 PM
The two things that I can think of that will cause this problem are the extractor rod coming loose. Be sure it is screwed in tight.
Also just a hint of unburned powder or trash getting under the extractor will just about lock up a revolver. Change ammo and also try cleaning under the Extractor when it happens and see if that fixes it. Pretty common with revolvers.
Good Luck

351 WINCHESTER
July 16, 2010, 08:31 PM
It's possible that you have a tight b/c gap and when the gun heats up the cylinder is rubbing on the barrel face. Stainless holds heat longer than carbon.

duns
July 16, 2010, 08:33 PM
I wonder if something might behind the ejector star that is causing it to bind up. It wouldn't take a whole lot to cause a problem.I had a look at the ejector star. Looks clean. Nothing anomalous that I can see.

Is binding a recognized failure mode with revolvers. If so, what are the usual causes?

oldfool
July 16, 2010, 08:54 PM
not accustomed to DA only, so only making bad, wild guesses here
(old Fuff may come along, and will know better questions to ask)

it does look a little like front of cylinder edge has more drag scuffing that I would think ok
suggesting that cylinder front edge is/was scuffing against top strap "gunk" (hardened residue), can be built up and not real noticeable
(yeah, I know, you looked, but if ejector rod was "bent" from some fool wrist slapping it shut, something like, I would not think it would run good for six or seven dozen rounds)

understand feels like good cylinder lock up, but not talking wobble, talking front/rear movement, push cylinder forward w/ thumb, push it rearward... expect to feel a little give when pushed rearward... if no feeler gauges, both ways, look for daylight (got to hold it just right against bright lighting), should always see "daylight" between front of cylinder and forcing cone... always

got a k-17 "especially good" (minimal cylinder cone gap) that will start cylinder drag (evident if look close enough), around 100 rounds, cone drag marks on cylinder face in/on powder residue... but no scuff on a clean face, ever... and smooth as a baby's butt when clean(ed), and spooky accurate.. and all it takes is a quick wipe w/ CLP.. just never saw one that tight in centerfire (beyond my meager means)

internal stuff, you need chat w/ old Fuff
(I don't know enough to guess why will run good for near 100 rounds before such signs)

do check your ejector rod is screwed ALL the way in.. (tightens opposite of a bolt thread, best I recall)... if this is a one/first range trip thing, rather than repetitive, and ceases when well cleaned...

cylinder drag IF that is it, feels a lot like turning a gear reducer w/ hand on output shaft instead of on input shaft

but I am saying far more than I know, here
old Fuff can help !

apologies in advance for false leads

PS
is this repetitive, or a one time 1st run ??

duns
July 16, 2010, 08:55 PM
The two things that I can think of that will cause this problem are the extractor rod coming loose. Be sure it is screwed in tight.
Also just a hint of unburned powder or trash getting under the extractor will just about lock up a revolver. Change ammo and also try cleaning under the Extractor when it happens and see if that fixes it. Pretty common with revolvers.
Good LuckThe extractor rod is not loose. There is no trash under the extractor star though I did spray a bit of CLP in there before going to the range. Ammo was the Federal Eagle 38 Spl FMJ that has performed faultlessly in my other revolver for many hundreds of rounds.

duns
July 16, 2010, 08:57 PM
It's possible that you have a tight b/c gap and when the gun heats up the cylinder is rubbing on the barrel face. Stainless holds heat longer than carbon.I was wondering the same. The gun was pretty hot when the problem first manifested. I think I'd fired about 40 rounds in quick succession when the problem first appeared.

oldfool
July 16, 2010, 09:27 PM
apologies to all posters in advance.. but I did run into a problem ONCE w/ Federal Eagle 38sp
that was labeled "CCC"..
"completely copper coated"... (not "jacketed", NOT FMJ)

more than one gun, more than one 50 round box
would shed the "jacket" in the forcing cone
leaving a pert-near-perfect "jacket" ring in forcing cone
would not have caught it if it had not left enough between cylinder and cone to lock up the gun
we shot up 3 more boxes of that stuff ONE round at a time, carefully, inspecting after every round
happened one or two rounds every 50 round box, no BS

extreme unlikely, I know... NOT their FMJ
but I never bought any more federal Eagle 38sp, either, not ever
call me paranoid, but I get nervous about stuff left in forcing cones, ain't supposed to be there

duns
July 16, 2010, 09:31 PM
not accustomed to DA only, so only making bad, wild guesses here
(old Fuff may come along, and will know better questions to ask)

it does look a little like front of cylinder edge has more drag scuffing that I would think ok
suggesting that cylinder front edge is/was scuffing against top strap "gunk" (hardened residue), can be built up and not real noticeable
(yeah, I know, you looked, but if ejector rod was "bent" from some fool wrist slapping it shut, something like, I would not think it would run good for six or seven dozen rounds)

understand feels like good cylinder lock up, but not talking wobble, talking front/rear movement, push cylinder forward w/ thumb, push it rearward... expect to feel a little give when pushed rearward... if no feeler gauges, both ways, look for daylight (got to hold it just right against bright lighting), should always see "daylight" between front of cylinder and forcing cone... always

got a k-17 "especially good" (minimal cylinder cone gap) that will start cylinder drag (evident if look close enough), around 100 rounds, cone drag marks on cylinder face in/on powder residue... but no scuff on a clean face, ever... and smooth as a baby's butt when clean(ed), and spooky accurate.. and all it takes is a quick wipe w/ CLP.. just never saw one that tight in centerfire (beyond my meager means)

internal stuff, you need chat w/ old Fuff
(I don't know enough to guess why will run good for near 100 rounds before such signs)

do check your ejector rod is screwed ALL the way in.. (tightens opposite of a bolt thread, best I recall)... if this is a one/first range trip thing, rather than repetitive, and ceases when well cleaned...

cylinder drag IF that is it, feels a lot like turning a gear reducer w/ hand on output shaft instead of on input shaft

but I am saying far more than I know, here
old Fuff can help !

apologies in advance for false leads

PS
is this repetitive, or a one time 1st run ??
Thanks for many good ideas. I'm surprised you can see scuffing on the cylinder front edge in the photo. I've looked and looked at the actual gun and can't see it.

Cylinder end to end movement is minimal, seems the same as on my M&P340, which was purchased new.

You suggest the ejector rod may be bent. You may be on to something there. When I rotate the rod, there is visible out of straightness. But I don't know how straight they should be.

That's an interesting point you make about drag marks in the powder residue on the cylinder face. I haven't cleaned it since coming home from the range. There are two adjacent chambers that have a scratch in the powder residue. The scratch is about 1mm in from the outer diameter of the cylinder, right about where the top edge of the forcing cone would be.

I don't have any feeler gages but I've held the gun up to a bright light and dry fired it. The forcing cone/cylinder gap is visibly different for different chambers. If I stop when the gap is minimized and unlatch the cylinder, low and behold the chambers with the scratch marks are the ones in the forcing cone area.

Based on your inspired guesswork, I'm thinking the problem is a bent ejector rod that causes the cylinder to bind on the forcing cone but only when the gun has warmed up sufficiently to close the gap.

PS This was a first outing with the new gun.

duns
July 16, 2010, 09:34 PM
apologies to all posters in advance.. but I did run into a problem ONCE w/ Federal Eagle 38sp
that was labeled "CCC"..
"completely copper coated"... (not "jacketed", NOT FMJ)

more than one gun, more than one 50 round box
would shed the "jacket" in the forcing cone
leaving a pert-near-perfect "jacket" ring in forcing cone
would not have caught it if it had not left enough between cylinder and cone to lock up the gun
we shot up 3 more boxes of that stuff ONE round at a time, carefully, inspecting after every round
happened one or two rounds every 50 round box, no BS

extreme unlikely, I know... NOT their FMJ
but I never bought any more federal Eagle 38sp, either, not ever
call me paranoid, but I get nervous about stuff left in forcing cones, ain't supposed to be thereAnother plausible explanation but I am using Eagle FMJ not CCC. I think your previous message to which I already replied probably hit the nail on the head.

terry264
July 19, 2010, 10:13 PM
Well, without mentioning a brand name, let me tell you what I diagnosed in the one I have that will lock up occasionally. Very unsafe condition due to it being "hot", cocked, and won't do anything. Can't even open the cyl. Here's what I found out since I could not duplicate the failure with the revolver empty.
I loaded it up with "fired" empties, held it in different directions while cycling and dry firing etc. and when I pointed it upwards, which slid some empties to the rear touching the frame=it locked up! As recoil sometimes does this to loaded rounds (much easier to slide them than fired ones), when they are in the "slid back" position, the rim of the next casing coming up will interfere with the "hand" that turns the cyl. Note that there would be a live round lined up with the barrel but hand would catch the rim of the next one coming around and bind it where the safety locks tell the gun something is wrong and it won't fire or do anything. I can see no reason for this "hand" to be as thick as it is, so it's technically overbuilt. Did it again after I forced some cases rearward by slapping the grip forward to make sure they were backed out a little, so I can get it to lock up anytime.
Do some of your empties have a slight barb on the rim like mine do? That's what tipped me off. Had to find out where the empties were getting that little sharp edge on them. Easier to feel the barb than to see although they can be seen once you feel them. Also measured the empties for rim diameter etc. and they are all okay. The only way I can unlock it is block the hammer if it has live ammo in it, put turning pressure on the cylinder in opposite direction to unload pressure from the "hand", and push the next or jammed casing forward into the cylinder. That relieves the condition and things run smoothly again. This same condition also causes hard trigger pulls at times if not locked completely up.
Am either going to notify the maker or simply grind a slight relief on the hand itself where it is marked from catching rims. A dremel tool should only take a few seconds to alleviate the problem. Will just make sure no grindings get into the action.

jglcolosprgs
July 19, 2010, 11:06 PM
Well, my 67 from J&G had either never been fired or had been recently rebuilt. I've never seen a gun as tight as my 67 (unless it was the 15 I got from them). Given that...

It is possible that the cylinder face and forcing cone are tight and are getting gunked up and or expanding with heat. (what does the feeler gauge say? what are the high and low reading and the average for all six chambers?) I kind of get the impression from your post that you aren't ready to tear this guy apart by yourself.

You have a couple of options, find a gunsmith locally and run it by him or call J&G and talk with them. You have a 30 day return right?

P.S.

A local gunsmith can scope out any of these problems mentioned above in about 30 seconds. It won't take to much to get it going again. You will LOVE this pistol.

duns
July 19, 2010, 11:07 PM
terry264. Thanks for another possible explanation. Next time I fire it and it locks up, I am going to examine it right away to see if I can detect visually where its binding. Should be easy to tell if the cylinder is binding on the forcing cone (i.e. can I see daylight when I hold it up to a light). Not sure though how a "hand" works. Can anyone kindly give a novice an explanation or a link to an explanation?

duns
July 19, 2010, 11:15 PM
Well, my 67 from J&G had either never been fired or had been recently rebuilt. I've never seen a gun as tight as my 67 (unless it was the 15 I got from them). Given that...

It is possible that the cylinder face and forcing cone are tight and are getting gunked up and or expanding with heat. (what does the feeler gauge say? what are the high and low reading and the average for all six chambers?) I kind of get the impression from your post that you aren't ready to tear this guy apart by yourself.

You have a couple of options, find a gunsmith locally and run it by him or call J&G and talk with them. You have a 30 day return right?A lot of good points. My model 64 from J&GSales looked as if it had never been shot metal-wise but the wooden grips are very worn. I don't know much at all about guns but my impression is that it is tight if anything. I don't have any feeler gages. Next time it locks up I will examine it to see whether I can still see daylight between the cylinder and the forcing cone.

I don't think the problem is gunk. It was spotless when I got it and I haven't fired it enough to create gunk. But it could be thermal expansion. I did notice as I posted earlier that the forcing cone gap does seem noticeably different as different chambers come into alignment.

I didn't know there might be a 30-day return policy. Thanks for pointing that out. I will take it to the range one more time to try to diagnose the problem and if I am still none the wiser I will call J&G.

terry264
July 20, 2010, 12:51 PM
Re-edited post #14 on this thread to make more clear. Also Duns, the "hand" is the piece that comes up catching the ratchet star on rear of cyl. and turns it. Like a hand turning it, so they call it the hand.

DickM
July 20, 2010, 01:42 PM
A misaligned yoke could also be contributing to your problem.

armoredman
July 20, 2010, 02:37 PM
Had the exact same issue with a Smith copy - bent ejector rod.

MIL-DOT
July 20, 2010, 07:01 PM
Odd to run into this thread about 5 minutes after calling J&G with some questions about these stainless 64's. ;) I'm thinking about grabbing one of these sometime this week. I'll wait and see how this thread develops......

The Lone Haranguer
July 20, 2010, 07:14 PM
Ejector rod unscrewed?

jglcolosprgs
July 20, 2010, 07:19 PM
Odd to run into this thread about 5 minutes after calling J&G with some questions about these stainless 64's. ;) I'm thinking about grabbing one of these sometime this week. I'll wait and see how this thread develops......

Here is my 67 from J&G. It shoots better than it looks. I couldn't be happier.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4368280361_0e1593cb4c_o.jpg

Deaf Smith
July 20, 2010, 07:36 PM
Ejector rod unscrewed?
My thoughts to.

If no dirt under extractor star and heating does not cause binding where the forcing cone is, and the ejector rod looks strait, then being unscrewed is a good thing to check.

Deaf

If you enjoyed reading about "Problem with S&W Model 64" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!