Remington "vtr"


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gkdir
July 18, 2010, 11:11 AM
Morning:
With out causing too much of a ruckus--can someone on here please tell me the purpose of that BUTT UGLY triangle barrel. I have 700 Classic's, 700 SPS's, 700 Varmint's, but that thing just eludes me. Let the rant begin, thanks.:barf:

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Loggerlee
July 18, 2010, 11:15 AM
I think they thought it would make the barrel stiffer to make it triangular,at least that's what it claims on the Remington website.

It's not my favorite look,but I don't need another .223 anyway.

Walkalong
July 18, 2010, 11:51 AM
I actually like the look. I fired one in .223 and was impressed.

longdayjake
July 18, 2010, 12:19 PM
Well, this is what the guy at the gun counter will tell you.

Stiffer so that you get the same POI whether with 1 shot or 50 shots!!!

More surface area to dissipate heat!!!

Less weight than a bull barrel with same results!!!

Its cool factor will make you an awesome shooter!!!


Okay, to be more serious I have shot one in .308 and it was actually pretty good.

Detritus
July 18, 2010, 12:31 PM
It's stiffer than a unfluted round barrel of the same weight. It also has more surface area per ounce of barrel weight as well, so it cools faster.

I can attest to it cooling faster, and accuracy being at least on par with other, heavy barrel, factory rifles. since there was one on the firing line a few weeks back at my local range. There were i think 5or6 of us out there at the time on the 100 and 200 yard portions of the range, Me with an SPS-V, the guy with the VTR, and the rest with various fluted and unfluted heavy barreled savages and remingtons. due to the heat (mid to high 90's with near 100% humidity) we all wound up taking breaks and letting the barrels cool maybe every 20 shots (per shooter) max. That VTR was always cooled down well before the rest of the guns, and he was getting groups on par with the other 2 guys present that were shooting non-handload/non-premium ammo through their varmint rigs.

WNTFW
July 18, 2010, 12:33 PM
Looks wise I can live with it. I have the SPS Varmint so I'm halfway there on the look.

What I don't like is the integral muzzle brake or porting. I'm not into brakes at all. They also are not allow in target competition so I would not want it.

Maverick223
July 18, 2010, 12:35 PM
Well, this is what the guy at the gun counter will tell you.Well the goon at the counter is dead wrong...about everything. The barrel has a lower moment of inertia, and therefore has less stiffness than either a bull barrel of a fluted barrel. It has less surface area (again than both bull barrel and fluted barrel, but probably a sporter barrel as well). It does have less weight, but has no advantages over a conventional bull barrel or a fluted barrel, and few advantages (and some disadvantages) over a sporting contour barrel. The individual that designed that profile must have been a fashion designer because that barrel profile is an embarrassment to any engineer.

OTOH fluted barrels can be stiffer than an equally sized bull barrel due to the reduced weight at the muzzle, but the major advantage is the and greater strength to weight ratio, something that no bull barrel can come close to matching. It also has a greater convection heat transfer coefficient (meaning that it cools faster) with equal capacitance (the ability to retain more heat at a lesser overall temperature) to a bull barrel of equal weight, which allows you to shoot longer with less deviation from the POA.

In short, fluted barrels are the way to go; triangular barrels, not so much...SniperCentral (http://www.snipercentral.com/vtr.htm) agrees.

:)

DIM
July 18, 2010, 12:58 PM
let see to create varmint bull barrel requires square piece of metal from which round barel can be made, but if you split square in 2 triangles you can make 2 barrels and call them VTR its great price reduction as you can see, if you go conventional round way all of the material on the sides of square corners would be lost but now you are set...

WNTFW
July 18, 2010, 01:03 PM
Why would they start with a square and not round?

DIM
July 18, 2010, 01:22 PM
because you get round from square after you turn it :-) do a good research how gun barrels are made, what material is used what do they look raw etc...

Detritus
July 18, 2010, 01:25 PM
Why would they start with a square and not round?

They wouldn't and they don't. I'm hoping that DIM is being sarcastic.

Esp. since the VTR barrel starts as a standard round barrel blank just like all the others Remington uses. And then gets the flats and that 3-slot brake created on some form of CNC mill. The VTR barrel starts out just ahead of the receiver with a profile very close to if not eaxctly the same as the standard remington varmint/heavy profile ("No.2 profile" maybe?). Most likely the same blanks are used for the VTR, SPS-Tactical, and SPS-Varmint.

My issue with the VTR is that other than that barrel, it may as well be an SPS-Varmint.
By giving the barrel a "sexier profile", that (in my case unwanted) brake, and 4" less length, the price goes up $200 off the bat. it's still in that craptastic unbedded/unpillared stock and there's no way that it's a higher quality barrel or the price jump would be even more, as noted odds are they start with the same blanks.

regardless of any other merits, I'm not very prone to pay for asthetics. Heck, until last year the only centerfire rifles i'd ever bought were Savages!

DIM
July 18, 2010, 01:32 PM
long time before they become round blanks, before they get forged they are usually cut in squares, then forged, then turned for perfect round shape.

Maverick223
July 18, 2010, 01:32 PM
long time before they become round blanks, before they get forged they are usually cut in squares, then forged, then turned for perfect round shape.I don't believe that anyone still uses that process, today they use bar stock (which is formed by pushing it through dies) for barrels. I am certain that the VTR is the same, they just mill the sides flat. It actually costs slightly more than a standard round barrel (bull, palma, or tapered contour) because there is an additional process involved in production.

:)

Detritus
July 18, 2010, 01:36 PM
because you get round from square after you turn it :-) do a good research how gun barrels are made, what material is used what do they look raw etc...

Any foundry producing the quality steels needed for barrelmaking is going to be capable of producing said steel as a ROUND bar, and for the same or similar price as square. so it is exceedingly hard for me to beleive anyone much less anyone doing so for profit is wasting time turning square stock to produce a barrel.

I don't believe that anyone still uses that process

If anyone does they're an Idiot and probably not long for remaining in business, just the extra "tool time" involved would run the costs up so much as to make it non-viable in comparison to starting with round bar stock

fireman 9731
July 18, 2010, 01:41 PM
I am very happy with my 22-250.

I easily get sub-MOA groups with handloads.

There is very little muzzle jump so I can see all my hits.

I have a light and handy coyote rifle, then pop on a bipod and I have a capable benchrest gun.

Plus it looks cool.

Maverick223
July 18, 2010, 02:07 PM
If anyone does they're an Idiot and probably not long for remaining in businessThe only type of bbl that I am not sure about is a octagonal profile, and though it would make some sense to use a square blank, I still doubt it begins life as anything other than bar stock. Why?...because Oct. barrels are few and far between and every other bbl they churn out starts as a round blank.

:)

Detritus
July 18, 2010, 02:39 PM
The only type of bbl that I am not sure about is a octagonal profile, and though it would make some sense to use a square blank, I still doubt it begins life as anything other than bar stock. Why?...because Oct. barrels are few and far between and every other bbl they churn out starts as a round blank.

here's two pictures of what a riflesmith in Crosby TX made for producing the Octagonal profile barrels he uses for 19th century single-shot rifle (re)builds.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/Bones_crusher/IM000394.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/Bones_crusher/IM000393.jpg

so yeah, round blank in an indexing chuck of some sort (likely custom, or at least a custom index plate to make getting to teh next position fast and easy), with the flats milled in.

I'm sure the VTR barrels are made in a VERY similar manner but on CNC mills with multiple blanks/cutters per setup.

Also on the subject of Octagonal barrels, they're almost always higher priced than round barrels of similar weight adn general diameter. in great part b/c they spend extra time being milled to that profile.

DougW
July 18, 2010, 02:50 PM
Mine does not shoot quite as accurately as my son's SPS Varmit, bit mine is about 2 pounds lighter, and I like the looks.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p118/MDWINK/DSCF0177.jpg

Still developing loads for both rifles, but 165 and 168 look to be the most promising.
My VTR will hols <1" at 100 yards, the SPS will do the same at 200 yards.

WNTFW
July 18, 2010, 02:51 PM
If you start with a square you cut across the corners you get 2 triangles. Problem is they are not equalateral triangles. One angle is 90 and the other 2 are 45s. Not an effecient start.
It just make sense to start with a round. In most cases the raw material is the cheapest part of the cost equation.

Every machinist I know tries to start with as near a net shape as a starting point as possible. "Near Net Shapes" has become a term in manufacturing.

DIM
July 18, 2010, 04:28 PM
OK you got me I have no clue how they produced, I thought it would be funny, as long as it shoots have fun

rozziboy18
July 18, 2010, 06:32 PM
because its tacticool!!!!! com'on dont you want to be one of the cool kids???

all jokes aside i owned one in 308, shot sub moa at 100yd in a 3 shot groups on average.
meaning .600-.800 with fgmm

Geno
July 18, 2010, 08:47 PM
Barrels, like bullets, are supposed to be round. Now, the day they devise a triangular bullet to be fired through that triangular barrel, I'll buy it. 'Til then, I'll stick with round (and some fluted/some not). :scrutiny:

Geno

gunnutery
July 18, 2010, 09:01 PM
Well, regardless of the disputed claims of what it does or doesn't do, I think it looks pretty sweet.

Maverick223
July 18, 2010, 09:12 PM
Barrels, like bullets, are supposed to be round.I know you just forgot to include octagonal barrels. :scrutiny: Now it may have little purpose, but at least it doesn't hurt anything (moment of inertia is about the same, the weight is pretty close, and the surface area is also near equivalent), and it makes for a good looking barrel for those older pattern rifles.

:)

stubbicatt
July 18, 2010, 09:24 PM
I like the octagons on some of the Coopers I've seen. Really a spectacular look to them.

Geno
July 18, 2010, 10:10 PM
Maverick223:

Wow! You're right! That'd be a strange bullet shape, huh? :D

Geno

Maverick223
July 18, 2010, 10:46 PM
Wow! You're right! That'd be a strange bullet shape, huh?Now that'd be a stop sign everyone would obey. ;)

Uncle Mike
July 18, 2010, 10:55 PM
The VTR was an effort from Remington to do 'something different' that might generate much needed profit at minimal cost, it has for the most part done this, but the fad has dissipated it seems.

The VTR's have steadily came down in pricing from most of the distributors.

As for the VTR being any more accurate than its round barrel cousin...not!

To date, I have had the honor of mounting and sighting in nearly 100 of these VTR's for customers, and NONE of the VTR's have been stellar in the accuracy department, not bad accuracy, but not anything Remington would have you believe, due to the triangle shaped barrel!

On a happier note, the 'balance' of the VTR is spot on! The accuracy is descent enough and the prices are descending for now, so if you fancy one, get it!

rozziboy18
July 19, 2010, 10:14 AM
when is remington going to learn that its not the odd and different that we as consumers want? id rather pay 700.00 or 800.00 and get a highly accurate rem 700 out of the box than a crazy looking barreled rifle. but that just me.

all aside, i wonder how it would perform with a hs stock?

Uncle Mike
July 20, 2010, 06:40 PM
Contrary to popular belief, the 'stocks' of most production rifles, especially the synthetic units are not the downfall of the rifles accuracy.

The cost cutting measures employed by many of the mainline firearm production companies are the reason accuracy evades us today.

Most of the production firearm companies, decisive, upper echelon, are young in comparison to the decision makers of the days when 'less than an inch at 100y' was the norm, or the maximum allowed spread a rifle could be expected to yield.

The mindset today, within the management of these companies, is centered on profit, not exceptional accuracy, and by all rights, this is what the general shooting public is reflecting to the manufacturers, it is not so much the accuracy that is important to the majority of today's shooters/hunters, but cost of the particular rifle....and whatever it produces as far as group size is OK by them, shucks most of these same folks don't know if a 3'' group at 100y is good or bad!

The same can be said concerning the 'quality', or looks of said firearms, these firearms may look horrendous by yesterdays standards, but is fine and dandy by today's standards as long as the price is not 'up there'. And the manufacturers are certainly taking advantage of this!

We should all be happy that one of the 'big boys' in the production world has not figured out how to make a polymer rifle! hehehehe

benEzra
July 20, 2010, 07:40 PM
Well the goon at the counter is dead wrong...about everything. The barrel has a lower moment of inertia, and therefore has less stiffness than either a bull barrel of a fluted barrel.
Not the case if you are comparing barrels of the same weight, though. For a given weight and caliber, a triangular barrel should be stiffer than a cylindrical barrel.

It has less surface area (again than both bull barrel and fluted barrel, but probably a sporter barrel as well).
Again, not true if you're comparing it to a cylindrical barrel of the same weight.

OTOH fluted barrels can be stiffer than an equally sized bull barrel due to the reduced weight at the muzzle, but the major advantage is the and greater strength to weight ratio, something that no bull barrel can come close to matching. It also has a greater convection heat transfer coefficient (meaning that it cools faster) with equal capacitance (the ability to retain more heat at a lesser overall temperature) to a bull barrel of equal weight, which allows you to shoot longer with less deviation from the POA.
All true. But it seems to me that the triangular barrel splits the difference between a full-on fluted barrel and a cylindrical barrel of the same weight.

I'm not saying a fluted barrel isn't better than a triangular profile, only that a triangular profile is probably slightly better than a cylindrical profile of the same weight.

Maverick223
July 20, 2010, 07:48 PM
Not the case if you are comparing barrels of the same weight, though. For a given weight and caliber, a triangular barrel should be stiffer than a cylindrical barrel.I don't believe that to be the case because some material was removed in the Y-axis (where is is most needed for strength), though I am not willing to do the calculations to prove my point (nor do I have the specs at my disposal to do so). Perhaps 1858 will come along and run a 3D simulation to test our opposing theories.

Again, not true if you're comparing it to a cylindrical barrel of the same weight.Again, I believe you are wrong, but again, I am not positive and I am unwilling to do the math to prove my point.

:)

Uncle Mike
July 20, 2010, 07:56 PM
Whewwww....

Either way, the triangle barrel monster known by all as the VTR isn't any more, or less for that fact, accurate than the old cylindrical barreled rifles!

I wonder if all this 'Play Station' and X-Box made an impression on Remingtons engineers!?!

An idea stolen from several Swedish aviation military cannons.

Looks cool though!

husker
July 20, 2010, 07:58 PM
Are its angels all radar prof. Is it truly a stealthy rifle. If so I WANT 1!!

Uncle Mike
July 20, 2010, 08:06 PM
Are its angels all radar prof. Is it truly a stealthy rifle. If so I WANT 1!!

You know.....you may have an important point there.

You know how those pesky game wardens are using the utmost in cutting edge technology to bag violators! hehehe

Remington must be thinking along this rout as they have yet again introduced 'something different' and stealthy with their new introduction..... the SPS Tactical AAC-SD!

Proving it doesn't have to shoot as accurately as the 'old' rifles....just be 'different'!

A and O
July 20, 2010, 08:20 PM
Well there is the cool factor. One gent mentioned triangular shaped bullets being the point at which he would buy one. Since your bullets are fluted when they come out of your barrel we are assuming you have a fluted barrel, correct?

Uncle Mike
July 20, 2010, 08:25 PM
.....and 'spiral' fluted at that! hehehe

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