Bushmaster ACR Torture Test


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RattleDogUSA
July 18, 2010, 06:26 PM
Hello everyone,

My name is Matt and I'm a new member to The High Road.

I was wondering how many people would be interested in a "torture test" involving the new Bushmaster ACR (Magpul Masada). I bought one of the first models out, but I have yet to see very much in the way of running it to hell and back.... so, I guess I'll do it! :)

If the interest is there, what tests would you like to see? Water/sand/mud/round count/other?

I would like to do this for my own interest and to help anyone thats hesitant on spending money on such a new (a.k.a. unproven) weapon. What I DONT want is the pointless/ignorant banter that is so common among gun discussions (ie: youtube comments on anything involving guns)

Here's a picture of an impromptu test... NO FTF's yet! I have a short video showing the test, but I would like to conduct a much more thorough one soon....and post the results/pictures/videos for everyone to see!

P.S. -Notice the mud in the chamber... it was EVERYWHERE!

******EDIT********
Here's a short test... more to follow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON3XLedD4_w

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LHRGunslinger
July 18, 2010, 06:29 PM
Hellz Yea! I'd love to see a review/torture test of the ACR

gondorian
July 18, 2010, 07:04 PM
Welcome to the High Road RattleDog! Yes torture tests would be pretty nifty.

giggitygiggity
July 18, 2010, 07:15 PM
I would love to see mud, dirt, sand, and water tests. Also, a drop test would be good too. Perhaps dropping from a realistic distance like off a house or something that would happen in real-life (dropping 15,000 feet from a plane isn't realistic). Whatever other tests you have, I'd love to see.

15guns
July 18, 2010, 07:17 PM
No because SCARS are the best production 5.56x45mm rifles to date so far.

gunnutery
July 18, 2010, 07:30 PM
Why not, too bad you can't get Remington to help fund the round count :). Enjoy!

Maverick223
July 18, 2010, 07:32 PM
I vote for destructive testing! :evil:

RattleDogUSA
July 18, 2010, 08:21 PM
I would love to see mud, dirt, sand, and water tests. Also, a drop test would be good too. Perhaps dropping from a realistic distance like off a house or something that would happen in real-life (dropping 15,000 feet from a plane isn't realistic). Whatever other tests you have, I'd love to see.

My impromptu mud test should be up as soon as i learn how to post video.

Next weekend the plan is to go out to the desert (AZ) with the ACR, a shovel, a tub of water and some safety glasses :D Yes, I will be using reloads, but that shouldn't matter. I've run 2000+ reloads through this weapon already, not a single FTF yet.....

The next testing procedure should look something like this:

*Fire a Pmag or two as normal
*Submerse ACR in water and fire two round bursts, full and partial submersion between bursts.
*Cover ACR with dirt (bolt closed, locked and loaded) and fire 5 round bursts, recovering with dirt between bursts.
*Cover ACR with dirt (bolt closed, no mag), load mag, charge, and fire 5 round bursts, recovering with dirt between bursts.
*Cover ACR with dirt (bolt open, no mag) and fire full mag.
*Cover ACR with MUD (bolt closed, locked and loaded) and fire full mag
*Cover ACR with MUD (bolt closed, no mag) load mag, charge and fire 5 round bursts, recovering with mud between bursts.
*Cover just the bolt carrier group in mud :eek:, reassemble, and fire full mag.

All tests will be performed in immediate succession, without any cleaning other than what I can clear with my hands. Also, for some tests (such as dirt with open bolt) I will rod JUST the barrel to clear any obstructions. That would be bad for ANY gun.

I will not be dumping mud directly into the open bolt, as I think mud poured directly INTO the chamber of almost any gun would cause jams. However, the last test should simulate about as dirty as an operating group anyone is likely to EVER encounter, much less a civilian. I also am combining the sand/dirt tests, as AZ desert is sort of both.

If all goes well, I will just play around afterwards and see if I can cause it to F*#( up

I don't know yet if a drop test is worth it. What would I be testing? If it could withstand a fall? Clay pigeons sometimes survive being pulled, shot at and falling back down to earth, and those are made to shatter. At the same time, something horrific could happen ONCE that would never happen again in 100,000,000 falls. If you specify what you are trying to test, maybe we can figure out a more repeatable way of testing it.

No because SCARS are the best production 5.56x45mm rifles to date so far.

SCAR= an amazing lightweight rifle.
HOWEVER,
That was not the question I was trying to answer, and that is an unqualified statement even if I was. Now, if you would like to run a personal SCAR of yours through my same test, I welcome you to post your results alongside mine. If not, either ignore my test or keep your input to things that are constructive.

LRS_Ranger
July 18, 2010, 08:31 PM
Looking forward to hearing what happens.. ;) Glad someone bought one of those things, I was going to but got fed up with it.

gb0399
July 18, 2010, 08:35 PM
dont break that thing, give it to me and I'll call you if it ever FTF

Friendly, Don't Fire!
July 18, 2010, 08:40 PM
I think driving over it with a truck would simulate a real scenario of a truck accidentally driving over it.

By the way, I had to study your picture as it took a little while to decipher that that is mud on your nose and not a nose ring.:cool:

My arms were once that hairy. Then I went bald.

giggitygiggity
July 18, 2010, 08:44 PM
I don't know yet if a drop test is worth it. What would I be testing? If it could withstand a fall? Clay pigeons sometimes survive being pulled, shot at and falling back down to earth, and those are made to shatter. At the same time, something horrific could happen ONCE that would never happen again in 100,000,000 falls. If you specify what you are trying to test, maybe we can figure out a more repeatable way of testing it.

I left that one kind of open. Good points. Thinking about it again, it would be difficult to be scientific and methodical when conducting a drop test. It's your rifle and I look forward to all your tests. This will be awesome!

Al LaVodka
July 18, 2010, 09:34 PM
OMG! Huney, close your eyes -- don't look at the screen. Leave the room.

Now, what have you done to your pretty gun!?

;)

Al

Maverick223
July 18, 2010, 09:35 PM
I think driving over it with a truck would simulate a real scenario of a truck accidentally driving over it.I think your right...also trampling it with a goat may approximate a real life scenario of someone accidentally trampled by a goat. :neener:

Zanad
July 19, 2010, 12:11 AM
I CALL IT IF IT EVER BREAKS and op doent want to fix it......











just kidding

mfcmb
July 19, 2010, 12:32 AM
The issues of most interest to me are:

o Is is reliable with ammo from a wide variety of vendors, particularly the cheap ones line Brown Bear.

o Is it reliable with magazines from various vendors.

o Is it reliable in dusty/sandy environments.

Thank you very much for your offer to consider requests.

RattleDogUSA
July 19, 2010, 01:17 AM
The issues of most interest to me are:

o Is is reliable with ammo from a wide variety of vendors, particularly the cheap ones line Brown Bear.

o Is it reliable with magazines from various vendors.

o Is it reliable in dusty/sandy environments.

Thank you very much for your offer to consider requests.

I will do a test with as many different types of ammo as I can, but it might be limited to a mag or two each. Not a very thorough test. Also, thats just as much of an ammo test as it is a weapons test.

Pmags so far have been flawless, all others have been too but I don't use them enough to give them a green light yet. The only mag I have had trouble with so far is a cheap Korean Beta-C 100rder knock off that barely works with ANY gun I try it in. Not the guns fault...

My next test will involve dry Arizona desert dirt. Although that one includes water, so I might do another one just running the gun bone dry.

RattleDogUSA
July 19, 2010, 01:46 AM
Added my first little impromptu test...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON3XLedD4_w

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 02:08 AM
Looks like the Shrubmaster is holding up well...looking forward to your additional tests. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/xyxthumbs.gif

LHRGunslinger
July 19, 2010, 04:44 AM
Pimpin.

Dionysusigma
July 19, 2010, 05:05 AM
That was pretty cool. :D

Kinda makes me want one, now. :uhoh:

unit91
July 19, 2010, 09:03 AM
RattleDog -

A VERY hearty kudos to you for ponying up your own weapon to do the test(s)! Great attitude, great methodology, and I appreciate your donation to the gun-owning endeavor!

Tim the student
July 19, 2010, 09:06 AM
I'd like to see how it does with a mag (previously tested to be a good mag) that was dropped in the mud.

I'd also like to see how it does with a really fine (talcum powder like) sand.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 19, 2010, 01:20 PM
How testing any shifts in zero/changes in group size after removing and replacing the barrel?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
July 19, 2010, 01:37 PM
I think your right...also trampling it with a goat may approximate a real life scenario of someone accidentally trampled by a goat. :neener:
Sure, do both, driving over it and having a goat walking on it - why not?

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 02:18 PM
Sure, do both, driving over it and having a goat walking on it - why not?Sounds like a plan...or a party. :D

GunsBeerFreedom
July 19, 2010, 02:49 PM
This is an awesome test, but you must be braver (or MUCH better off) than I. Nearly 3K gun and you're trying to break it.

Gotta admit, I'd do it too if I could.

LHRGunslinger
July 19, 2010, 03:38 PM
For extended fire tests get EZ Mags they're practically unstoppable and easy to load

RattleDogUSA
July 19, 2010, 05:16 PM
RattleDog -
A VERY hearty kudos to you for ponying up your own weapon to do the test(s)! Great attitude, great methodology, and I appreciate your donation to the gun-owning endeavor!

Thank you, sir! I love doing it. So many people spend $$$$ on a tactical/combat rifle and never let it see so much as a speck of lint. Not me...I want to know that my weapon could stick with me through anything (you know, like zombie attacks and such haha). I love POF rifles, however, I have a 6.8 SPC of theirs that I would reach past to grab a .22 Ruger pistol if it came down to it. I can't trust a rifle that jams...

I'd like to see how it does with a mag (previously tested to be a good mag) that was dropped in the mud.

I'd also like to see how it does with a really fine (talcum powder like) sand.

Muddy mag test should not be a problem. I will incorporate that into my desert test. The fine sand test will be part of my third test, which is to run it BONE DRY. This is important to me as I know how prevalent fine dust/sand was during my time in Iraq, and its amazing how it can stop some weapons dead in their tracks.

How testing any shifts in zero/changes in group size after removing and replacing the barrel?

I am interested in this one also. I also want to see how much I affect accuracy by running all these tests :) I will head to the range tomorrow to document my 100 yd zero.

Darthbauer
July 19, 2010, 05:43 PM
How did you get a basic ACR with the folding stock?

RattleDogUSA
July 19, 2010, 06:01 PM
How did you get a basic ACR with the folding stock?

Ah, the million dollar question! How do you know that I don't have the Enhanced model with a basic hand guard? I am sorry, but my contact at Bushy asked to me not to tell.

I would put the rails on there, but I only need a top and bottom rail. The nice thing is you can add Magpul rails to the basic hand guard. I only needed the Magpul AFG so the basic one is more practical/durable/comfortable.

Darthbauer
July 19, 2010, 06:16 PM
Just asking cause that is the same set up I want with the folding stock and the afg but in tan.

Tim the student
July 19, 2010, 06:39 PM
Muddy mag test should not be a problem. I will incorporate that into my desert test.

Good stuff, thanks. I can see mud getting into mags easier than I can see mud getting into action of a rifle.

The fine sand test will be part of my third test, which is to run it BONE DRY. This is important to me as I know how prevalent fine dust/sand was during my time in Iraq, and its amazing how it can stop some weapons dead in their tracks.

Yep, that stuff can create some bad days if you're not aware of how to deal with it. It really is like moon dust, isn't it?

Kingofthehill
July 19, 2010, 08:02 PM
I appreciate the concept and energy but it kinda seemed a little flat?

Ive done that with my Bargin Bin AR-15 in snow/mud/water... i sure hope the ACR could handle that.

Please don't take it the wrong way but that didn't scream "Torture" to me. That was more like "help, my gun got muddy"

RattleDogUSA
July 19, 2010, 09:59 PM
I appreciate the concept and energy but it kinda seemed a little flat?

Ive done that with my Bargin Bin AR-15 in snow/mud/water... i sure hope the ACR could handle that.

Please don't take it the wrong way but that didn't scream "Torture" to me. That was more like "help, my gun got muddy"

Thats ok. My next test will be much more methodical and will really push the weapon. What is your definition of torture? I can BREAK anything, I'm trying to see if the weapon can make it through WORST CASE scenarios that might actually happen...like being full of mud, firing coming right out of the water (which will destroy almost every AR), being full of sand, running without lube and having dirty mags.

I've played around with ALOT of M16/AR-15 family of weapons thorough conditions most outside combat arm branches of the military ever see, and I can bet a case of beer the ACR can handle more mud and sand than just about any AR-15. Try running yours WITHOUT LUBE through 1200 rounds... I did, not a single FTF. I'll have to make a video :)

I hope you enjoy my next tests. Tell me what else you would like to see that I haven't mentioned in other posts.

P.S.> And its more like "WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!! Muddy ACR!!!!!" , not a plea for help.

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 10:13 PM
RattleDog, I have to ask a question, one that I am sure others have as well...in your opinion, what makes the ACR superior to its primary competition, the SCAR-L?

:)

RattleDogUSA
July 20, 2010, 01:03 AM
RattleDog, I have to ask a question, one that I am sure others have as well...in your opinion, what makes the ACR superior to its primary competition, the SCAR-L?

:)

I have never said it was superior, as that would assume there was a set criteria that all weapons hope to achieve. For example, if somebody was looking at modularity, ACR would probably win. If weight was an issue, well, I held a SCAR and the ACR doesn't feel close (I know its not, on paper or in the hands). I would think the Robinson Arms XCR would be a competitor on PAPER, however, in the real world I don't think the quality or reliabilty is anywhere near the former two.

BUT, for ME (this type of thing normally creates flame wars or ignorant boobtube comments) the ACR seems like a better system.

*The ACR would be a no-brainer FOR ME simply because I would probably never want that meat-grinder of a charging handle that the SCAR utilizes.
*The easy of cleaning (not just from shooting, but from stuff like MUD) is absolutely simple with the ACR. I cant imagine how it could be improved.
*Caliber change is simple and painless. Sure, an AR can do that with a new upper, but its THE WHOLE DAMN UPPER! Sights, accessories, complete operating group. I think the cost of other calibers will be far less on the ACR in the future. The SCAR caliber change is non-existent....the .308 is another weapon.
*Bolt release is in a great spot. Can't wait for the next tactical carbine class:D

I could go on, but I really hate calling one weapon better over another online simply because I'm so fed up with the CONSTANT bickering and know-it-all attitude that permeates every weapon related discussion.Although this particular thread has been great so far! In addition, I do not like to voice my opinion on something unless I have educated myself by research or testing to the point where I can make well informed statements. The fact is, I need to either buy a SCAR or play around with one for a few days before I can give a definite answer.

Maverick223
July 20, 2010, 01:25 AM
Despite how it may sound, I am not trying to start anything, I just wanted to hear from someone that owns a ACR (not many of you folks out there as of yet) why that was chosen over the competition. FWIW, I don't see me buying either one (or an XCR), so I have no dog in this race.

Look forward to more testing...

:)

unit91
July 20, 2010, 08:57 AM
I could go on, but I really hate calling one weapon better over another online simply because I'm so fed up with the CONSTANT bickering and know-it-all attitude that permeates every weapon related discussion.

I hate to say it, but I have to generally agree with you here. As an aside, Maverick223 is a pretty straight shooter (no pun intended) with a great reputation.

longdayjake
July 20, 2010, 09:44 AM
Let me just start by saying that I have shot neither the SCAR or the ACR. I did have a chance to handle and cycle both weapons while at shot show. For me, the ACR looked and felt like a better weapon though I will have to say that there was a difference in weight. Also, the ACR's that I handled were all military versions so I can't comment on the civilian model. I just liked the way it "felt" more than the SCAR. If anyone wonders what I mean just bring one up to your shoulder and you will see.

RattleDogUSA
July 20, 2010, 11:40 AM
I hate to say it, but I have to generally agree with you here. As an aside, Maverick223 is a pretty straight shooter (no pun intended) with a great reputation.

I re-read my post and realized that I may have made it seem as if I thought Maverick223 was starting something. To the contarary... Maverick, along with everyone else, so far has either had great questions or positive input. Thanks guys. Maybe I've jut read to many YouTube comments. The guys here at highroad seem to be a bit more mature.

Maverick, your question was a good one. Hope I answered it well. If you want a full ACR reveiw, I could do that.

Maverick223
July 20, 2010, 11:48 AM
Thank you, RattleDog, while I do my fair share of picking, I only aim to have a positive contribution. You answered the question well, and I believe a full review would be both interesting and informative.

:)

Ryanxia
July 20, 2010, 02:05 PM
I was drooling over this weapon for years since Massada first designed it, but when Bushmaster DOUBLED the MSRP on it I turned my back on it..

Girodin
July 20, 2010, 02:25 PM
What would make any test much more interesting to me is to have a nice AR next to it. While it is somewhat interesting to see how the ACR performs in the test it would be nice to know if it is doing anything that a quality AR wouldn't. The real question IMHO is whether the ACR SCAR et al offer a significant advantage over a good AR?

I'd like to see side by side testing in a number of areas, accuracy, reliability, durability, etc.

These are the type of articles i wish gun magazine would run. I'm guessing that actual rankings of competing products wouldn't go over well with their advertising clients as well as their typical rave reviews for all.

In terms of things your are testing and reporting on. Taking something to a demanding carbine course is IMO always an interesting test equipment.

At any rate thanks for the tests. Even anecdotal information is interesting, particularly on a weapon system that few people have had an opportunity to shoot.

Darthbauer
September 15, 2010, 12:38 PM
Any updates on this?

jbsmwd
September 15, 2010, 09:11 PM
+1 too

Evil Monkey
September 15, 2010, 10:11 PM
There's no such thing as a torture test unless you're taking it out of the box, applying some lube, and shooting thousands and thousands of rounds until failure.

That's how you determine what design aspects were a good idea, and what were bad. It tells you at what round count you're likely to encounter a problem. It tells you what parts to have plenty of. And most importantly, whether the system is worth the price or not.

Throwing it in some mud is not a test of any kind.

Girodin
September 15, 2010, 10:21 PM
Throwing it in some mud is not a test of any kind.

Well, its a test of what that gun will do when thrown into that mud that way.

krinko
September 15, 2010, 10:52 PM
In the absence of R.dog, let me offer this photo of my own ACR Torture Test.
It's called Letting A Fly Walk On It Torture Test and as you can see the fly is vigorously stamping his feet on the magazine----

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL165/1109208/13726244/391786502.jpg


Considering I had to buy mine retail, this is all the torture you're likrly to get out of me. Still, it is very annoying to have flies all over the place and it should count for something.
-----krinko

Ditch-Tiger
September 16, 2010, 12:45 AM
RattleDogusa said - "The fact is, I need to either buy a SCAR or play around with one for a few days before I can give a definite answer."

Good luck finding somebody who's willing to let YOU play with their SCAR for a few days!!!

Bye the way, this thread is great, don't stop RD.

Tirod
September 16, 2010, 09:39 AM
Load up some surplus gun show 30 round issue aluminum magazines, drop them on their feed lips onto concrete from shoulder high, and proceed to loading and shooting.

Load the cheapest lowest power ammo you can find, and shoot it.

Don't clean the weapon other than wiping it down externally. Record the round count until stoppage. THEN lube it and keep on shooting.

Shoot ten round groups with the most accurate ammo you think works, off a benchrest, at 100m on a quiet day. Calculate the mean average radius, which is military specification.

There are lots of realistic tests that duplicate real world conditions. Throwing it in the mud doesn't count unless the user lands on top of it. :neener:

Hatterasguy
September 16, 2010, 11:46 AM
How many rounds can you run through them without cleaning before you run into problems? Fal's have been proven to be able to go thousands upon thousands, heck I think old Dirty didn't swallow the recoil spring until 12k or so, and that didn't slow it down to much.

On my Sig right now I'm at about 1k, and I could probably go a lot longer but the Appleseed is this weekend so I figure what the heck.

I feel any military rifle should be able to spit at least 1k rounds down range in between having to do anything to it.


I'd be very interested in the results with the ACR, I suspect they would be favorable.

MTMilitiaman
September 16, 2010, 12:32 PM
I guess it would be "all of the above." You have to prove it is worth the weight and it is worth the cost. Those are the two biggest objections held against it. To prove the weight, you have to prove the durability is there. That is why they supposedly added enough weight to turn it into a 8.5 pound poodle shooter. So can it take a beating and last some rounds? And for cost, you have to prove that it is accurate and reliable enough to be useful and that the features you've added to it are useful enough to be worth the cost. If John CommanDoe takes his 8.5 pound $2500 ultra-modern plastic range toy to a carbine class, is he going to be embarrassed by the performance of his carbine compared to that of the older but lighter and less costly carbines his is supposed to replace? Some classes require well over 1000 rounds over a period of just a few days. And do most people actually need all those interchangeability options enough to pay that much for them? What makes it better than the competition? Why not get a more proven XCR, which already has the barrel conversion kits available and tested? Why not take a shiny new LWRC, POF, LMT, Noveske, ect. to the class?

And did they really give it at 1:9 twist non-chrome lined barrel? At that price :eek:

These are the things I want to know...

FLAvalanche
September 16, 2010, 01:25 PM
Sure, do both, driving over it and having a goat walking on it - why not?

No. No. No.

This guy is obviously on a budget and he's ponying up for the gun AND the ammo. What you do is lay the rifle BESIDE the goat, stare at it until it dies and falls over on the rifle. That way you've simulated the goat test, truck test and drop test.

It's just cheaper.

krinko
September 16, 2010, 09:40 PM
"...THEN lube it..."

The ACR manual says: "The Bushmaster ACR is designed to work without lubrication and after cleaning, all action parts should be wiped dry."

Seems that they mean it, too. I am at ca.800 rounds without any and all is well.
-----krinko

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL165/1109208/13726244/391915780.jpg

Tim the student
September 16, 2010, 10:40 PM
That way you've simulated the goat test, truck test and drop test.

And then you eat it.

The goat, not the rifle.

Maverick223
September 17, 2010, 01:14 AM
And then you eat it.

The goat, not the rifle.B/c the goat has already eaten the rifle. :p

+1 to the motion to see more torture...of the rifle, not the goat. :D

Konstantin835
September 17, 2010, 06:32 AM
This would be awesome to see because I have done a little homework and I think the ACR chambered in 6.8 Grendal could be one of the best military rifles in the world. Maybe this will get someones attention. Even though its a shame to see such a nice weapon be put through those tests, good luck.

Maverick223
September 17, 2010, 10:48 AM
I think the ACR chambered in 6.8 Grendal could be one of the best military rifles in the world.The good ole 6.8Grendel huh? :D

MTMilitiaman
September 17, 2010, 11:28 AM
Yeah...he did his homework :scrutiny:

Darthbauer
September 17, 2010, 06:30 PM
That guys gotta be a bushmaster rep.

1858
September 17, 2010, 11:04 PM
I have done a little homework and I think the ACR chambered in 6.8 Grendal could be one of the best military rifles in the world.

The good ole 6.8 Grendel huh?
Yeah...he did his homework
That guys gotta be a bushmaster rep.

You just can't make this stuff up ... what a great way to start the weekend!! :p Thanks guys!!! I owe you one!! :D:D

Maverick223
September 19, 2010, 12:48 AM
Thanks guys!!! I owe you one!Glad to be of some use, 1858.

:)

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