Bolt action storage.


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deadeye1122
July 19, 2010, 10:37 PM
How do all you bolt owners store your rifles at rest so to speak? Bolt open in the rifle,bolt closed ready to fire,bolt closed not ready to fire or out of the rifle elsewhere. Just a thought about springs/tensions and such. Thanks deadeye

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Ol` Joe
July 19, 2010, 10:46 PM
It doesn`t matter if a spring is relaxed or under tension, they wear from use not the state they are stored in

wrench
July 19, 2010, 10:46 PM
I store them however they fit the best in my safe!:)
Straight bolts usually open, bent bolts either way, bolts on straight pulls stick out quite a bit, so I take them out.
I don't worry about spring tension, cycling springs wears them out, leaving them cocked does not.

WNTFW
July 19, 2010, 11:35 PM
Bolt open on every rifle and a chamber flag (ECI) in place. Safest way to insure no round in chamber.

deadeye1122
July 19, 2010, 11:40 PM
Thanks guys. I've keep my bolts open/ no mags in the gun cabinet so as to know there are not any rounds in the chambers.I'm sure you are all correct but isn't something under pressure also trying to release said pressure?

Maverick223
July 19, 2010, 11:49 PM
It doesn`t matter if a spring is relaxed or under tension, they wear from use not the state they are stored inDing, ding, ding...we have a winner.

I'm sure you are all correct but isn't something under pressure also trying to release said pressure?Sure, but that doesn't mean it weakens over time. The best analogy that I have heard is regarding the springs on your truck (or other motor vehicle), and you don't jack it up at night to relieve the pressure on those springs do you? ;)

I store most of my rifles in a continual state of readiness as with all other guns. This is to include my Dumbo dropper, my Buff. Duster, and my long range precision rifle. Many of these rifles are unlikely to be pressed into emergency service, but it is better to keep then in a ready condition without need than to have need and not be ready. For this reason most of my bolt guns are kept loaded, chambered, with the safety on.

:)

OYE
July 19, 2010, 11:55 PM
I do believe leaving a striker spring compressed (cocked) will fatigue the spring much faster, or any other spring as far as that is concerned, including a magazine spring.
If I were you I would call Wolff Gunsprings and verify that.

dubbleA
July 20, 2010, 12:01 AM
Due to space concerns in the safes I pull the bolts from the rifles. They are notorious for causing dings and scratches to other firearms. I have to be careful of keeping tabs on bolts that I have multiples of.

deadeye1122
July 20, 2010, 12:05 AM
Thanks Maverick and all. The truck/car spring think puts into perspective. deadeye

Kentucky-roughrider
July 20, 2010, 12:07 AM
I store mine bolt closed and uncocked with mil suplus thisa is finely easy

OYE
July 20, 2010, 02:35 AM
From Ruger Customer Service FAQ :
"Can I store my Ruger pistol cocked or with rounds in the magazines?" Ans.
It is seldom advisable to keep a constant load on any compression spring and it is unsafe to store any firearm cocked.

From Wolff Gunspring FAQ:
. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? Ans.
Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Guess they haven't heard of the car/truck spring thing yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uncle Mike
July 20, 2010, 08:14 PM
You can store your irons cocked, just bring em' by the shop and we'll put new springs in them for a modest price!

Do not store your firearms 'cocked'! It will cause those embarrassing, heart breaking moments while in the deer stand!

armoredman
July 20, 2010, 08:53 PM
Bolt in, closed, magazine in, uncocked.

bhk
July 20, 2010, 10:20 PM
I have never released the pressure on a firearm spring for storage. Many have had their springs compressed for decades. Never a problem and not a worry. I have read of 1911 magazines keep fully loaded since WW2 and working just fine. My Ruger 10/22 has had its original magazine fully loaded since 1969 and works just great.

taliv
July 20, 2010, 10:50 PM
there are a lot of considerations for storing firearms and you'd be well advised to consider your own situation may be different from the situation of others giving advice. for example, what if something happens to you and your spouse has to sell off your collection? would you really want them unloading all those guns? maybe, maybe not.

for longer-term storage, you should probably store it such that oil and cleaning solvents don't seep out of the barrel and collect in the action.

the springs themselves may not be damaged from compressed storage, but that doesn't mean the feed lips on the magazine won't be. a closed bolt usually takes the pressure off the feed lips in most actions, but an open bolt and chamber flag may not.

"it depends"

Maverick223
July 20, 2010, 11:05 PM
the springs themselves may not be damaged from compressed storage, but that doesn't mean the feed lips on the magazine won't be. a closed bolt usually takes the pressure off the feed lips in most actions, but an open bolt and chamber flag may not.Which is a good argument for the Lancer L5 magazine (for AR-15 platforms). That is one of the primary reasons that it is my chosen magazine for HD, I prefer to leave my bolt open on that particular rifle (the M17). It is also recommended to use the PMag covers for those magazines in storage, though I don't know of an incident where they have been deformed, I feel that it is worth the tiny bit of trouble.

:)

Ithaca37
July 20, 2010, 11:31 PM
I do believe leaving a striker spring compressed (cocked) will fatigue the spring much faster, or any other spring as far as that is concerned, including a magazine spring.

Nope. Basic mechanics of materials. There is a reason we engineers get paid the big bucks. Intuition does not work all the time. That is why science requires experimentation and not just beliefs or feelings.

To the person that said something about the material trying to reduce the load. Creep is a phenomenon that is seen in static loading over time, however, creep is depends on temperature and for steel and other metals will not occur except at high temperature. Polymers and glass on the other hand will exhibit creep at room temperature. Look at a really old window sometime and you can often see that the bottom is thicker than the top. That is due to creep. Again, this is not seen in steel at room temperature.

Ithaca37
July 20, 2010, 11:33 PM
but that doesn't mean the feed lips on the magazine won't be

This is true. Additionally, the cartridge in contact with the feed lips can be deformed by the feed lip edges.

Hatterasguy
July 20, 2010, 11:40 PM
I keep all the bolts closed and the firing pins released.

I have enough room that I'm not worried about the bolt handles doing damage.

If it was a defensive firearm I would keep them loaded, even the old bolt guns. Round in the chamber, hammer back, safety off because most of the old safety's suck.

Other than one pistol I only keep my Sig rifle loaded, thats my defensive rifle; it has a 30 round Pmag loaded with M193 or M855 in it and its ready to go 24/7.

Maverick223
July 20, 2010, 11:44 PM
This is true.However, Magazines with steel feed lips (like the aforementioned Lancer L5s) will greatly reduce this effect (to the point where it is insignificant).

:)

OYE
July 21, 2010, 01:37 AM
My Quote:
"I do believe leaving a striker spring compressed (cocked) will fatigue the spring much faster, or any other spring as far as that is concerned, including a magazine spring."

Quote from Ithaca 37:
"Nope. Basic mechanics of materials. There is a reason we engineers get paid the big bucks. Intuition does not work all the time. That is why science requires experimentation and not just beliefs or feelings."


Ithaca 37, you may wish to argue the point with Ruger, or Wolff Gunsprings, or Stoeger airguns, et al. I'm afraid your argument is lost on us.


From Stoeger FAQ :
"Can I store my rifle in the cocked position?
You should NEVER store your airgun in the cocked position. It can be potentially dangerous and can weaken the mainspring."

From Ruger FAQ:
"Can I store my Ruger pistol cocked or with rounds in the magazines?" Ans.
It is seldom advisable to keep a constant load on any compression spring and it is unsafe to store any firearm cocked."



From Wolff Gunspring FAQ:
." How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? Ans.
Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting. "

Ithaca37
July 21, 2010, 10:12 AM
I'm afraid your argument is lost on us.

If you are asserting that I am not correct, by all means please tell the mechanism of failure for steel under static loading. If you are saying that you do not understand what I said, I will try to provide an explanation below, but I am not going to rewrite a textbook here. Use google to read up on this subject (not leaving mags loaded, but fatigue, stress, strain, creep, etc.). There is plenty of info out there from university websites, to wikipedia. You can pick up the basics anyways.

Beretta would disagree with you, ruger, etc. Frankly I would not purchase a weapon form a company that recommends against having magazines loaded and the weapon ready. What good is a weapon that can not be kept ready?

Carlton Nether, Customer Service for Beretta USA, tells us keeping a pistol magazine loaded for an extended period doesn't cause magazine spring failure, however, failures to feed can result. He says, "The ammo will 'roll' in the magazine. If the mags are kept loaded and moved around a lot -- say on a cop's belt -- the rolling action can, over time, cause creases in the cases. These creases can cause malfunctions. Also the top bullet will roll against the magazine lips and creasing can occur there as well. Just check old ammo that's been bouncing around in a magazine for a long time.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369/?tag=content;col1

If you understand the loading and unloading behavior of steel you would see why the notion that static loading of a magazine spring causing fatigue is ridiculous. When steel is loaded below the elastic limit, it will recover to its original length when the load is removed. When it is loaded above the elastic limit, plastic deformation occurs. This means that when the load is removed, the material will have some permanent deformation. However, the material stress strain curve will now be permanently altered and will not permanently deform any further if the loading remains the same or less. This is basic mechanics of materials. Try doing some reading on it as well as fatigue behavior of metals. You will see why I am correct and your intuition (and companies like Ruger) are wrong.

But, since you and ruger know so much more than me, please explain how the steel fatigues under static loading. Google static fatigue and you will see that this phenomenon does not occur in metals.

From Ruger FAQ:
"Can I store my Ruger pistol cocked or with rounds in the magazines?" Ans.
It is seldom advisable to keep a constant load on any compression spring and it is unsafe to store any firearm cocked."

Thank god I don't own a Ruger. How are you supposed to use one of their weapons for defense? No loaded mags, no cocked action? That leaves you with a metal club without a good handle for swinging.

From Wolff Gunspring FAQ:
." How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? Ans.
Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting. "

Read the rest of their answer and you will see they are trying to sell you their extra strength springs.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably.

Maybe they have just a little interest in selling you one of their products?

SwampWolf
July 22, 2010, 05:52 PM
Bolt in, closed, magazine in, uncocked.

Same here. Since there has always been a debate about whether or not a spring loses some of its viability if stored compressed over a long period of time, what's the downside to uncocking the firearm, if nothing else, just to be on the "safe side"?

Maverick223
July 22, 2010, 07:58 PM
...what's the downside to uncocking the firearm, if nothing else, just to be on the "safe side"?None, as long as it doesn't serve as a primary defense gun. IMO a SD/HD/CCW gun should remain ready with no more than a flick of a safety (on firearms so equipped and easily manipulated), cock of a hammer (lever guns and the like), or release of a bolt (SA rifles with no safety or a difficult safety).

:)

deadeye1122
July 22, 2010, 09:49 PM
Geez, nothing like kicking a beehive. After reading your posts pro and con I've decided to store not under tension except for a few items around the house.I still think something under tension wants to,needs to,tries to release Thanks for all your input. deadeye

XxWINxX94
July 22, 2010, 10:09 PM
First of all, I have 2 gun safes, (1) monster one, and (1) 6 rifle with a shelf.

I keep my guns arranged in my monster safe so they are with guns of the same size in the same little area, and a chance of a bump or scratch is very low. If i have to crowd a few in, the safest thing is to remove the bolt, and just remove or put it in very carefully.

If you really want to get picky, you could put a gun sock on every other gun, or every gun or anything. I put socks around my more expensive guns.

Ithaca37
July 22, 2010, 10:45 PM
Geez, nothing like kicking a beehive. After reading your posts pro and con I've decided to store not under tension except for a few items around the house.I still think something under tension wants to,needs to,tries to release Thanks for all your input. deadeye

Do whatever makes you comfortable, but it is not necessary despite what the armchair engineers tell you. Like I said, read about creep. The material data is well established and proven. Your thinking seems logical until one understands materials and sees the data.

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