Deer Hunting with a .45 ACP


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jrop11
July 21, 2010, 11:08 PM
I have a Beretta Cx4 Storm .45 ACP and it's extremely accurate at 100 yards with the standard iron sights. I was thinking of using it for deer hunting this fall for 25-50 yard shots. I load my own 230 grain LRN as well as some .45 XTP's and think they would be fairly sufficient stopping power wise. I've seen this posted 100's of times about the 1911 and the .45, but no one has ever asked about a rifle (chambered in a pistol round) .45.

I don't have any doubt about the shot placement. I was just wondering if anyone else had done this. It can't be too uncommon. I wouldn't do it with the CX4 .9mm, but the .45 is just insanely accurate.

Any recommendations on load, bullet etc would be appreciated.

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Eb1
July 21, 2010, 11:30 PM
If you state allows it then fine. It isn't what anybody else thinks, but you and what your state laws are. We in AR have to have a 4" barrel centerfire caliber.

jrop11
July 22, 2010, 12:25 AM
I believe Ga is "Any center fire cartridge" which the Beretta would meet that criteria. I'll have to check for sure, but don't think it's a legal issue.

Thanks BTW!

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 12:37 AM
Despite the writings of the late Jeff Cooper, .45ACP is a wimpy cartridge and I'd keep it under 25 yards for deer. Go to a magnum revolver or perhaps the .45 Colt in a Ruger if you get serious about handgun hunting. Personally, I prefer my .30-30 Contender, 1000 ft lbs at 200 yards and 3" accurate at that range.

HGUNHNTR
July 22, 2010, 12:39 AM
I shot a nice doe several years back using a 230Gr. Golden Saber on my handload. The deer died. :)

Ridgerunner665
July 22, 2010, 12:47 AM
I've killed several deer with the ole 45acp...nuttin wimpy about it.

40 yards, dead deer...every time.

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 09:37 AM
It'll kill a deer, yes, it is wimpy, though. +P gets up to 500 ft lbs, but standard pressure is under 400. I still kinda go by the 1000 ft lb rule, though the .357 mag is only about 800 at the muzzle and I've killed a couple out around 30 yards with my Blackhawk in that caliber. Even with the much more powerful .357, I keep it under 50 yards. The 1000 ft lb rule really doesn't explain .44 mag kills at beyond 50 yards, either, but a .44 load is putting up 700 or over ft lbs even at 100 yards.. Yeah, it can be done, but JMB didn't invent the .45ACP for deer hunters. I'd listen to Elmer Kieth over Jeff Cooper when it comes to sporting kills of game. JMHO, though. I've never swooned over the .45ACP. I own one, but I don't think it's a light saber or something, not the end all of firearms, knock a man off his feet, all that garbage. There is no such thing as "knock down" with a defensive handgun caliber. As they say, it's for fighting your way back to your rifle. The big magnums do approach a rifle's power, though.

Hunterdad
July 22, 2010, 09:51 AM
No way! You need a 300 win mag to kill a deer, didn't you know that?

DeepSouth
July 22, 2010, 10:11 AM
I killed 120+ pound whitetail with my PM45 last season. It was pretty close, probably less than 20 yards. It left the heaviest blood trail I have ever seen, deer ran probably 30-40 yards and was found dead. With said I'd recommend something...........well, I'll just say something more suitable for hunting.


Be sure to make certain you can use the LRN, here in AL you must use "expanding" ammunition, wouldn't think the LRN would qualify.

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 10:13 AM
Do it right and use a SWC if you can by rules. SWCs are the best hunting bullets. A hollow point in this caliber is not apt to have a lot of penetration and you need an exit hole because you're likely going to be blood trailing the animal. A round nose is NOT going to give as much wounding as a SWC.

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 10:15 AM
No way! You need a 300 win mag to kill a deer, didn't you know that?

There is a thread here about shooting hogs with a .22. You can get ridiculous with this light caliber on big game crap. :rolleyes: If you have a little too much, it ain't gonna hinder your chances. 400 ft lbs does not give me the warm fuzzies, why I've never bothered trying to hunt with such a pop gun. And, hell, I prefer single action revolvers in the outdoors, anyway. I've never had the desire to hunt with my Kel Tec P11, though our governor shot a coyote with his Ruger LCP a while back. Ruger is even making a limited "coyote special", now. :D

http://cdn1.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/tmp_dropzone_texan380-tfb.jpg

ONLY
July 22, 2010, 10:26 AM
I’ve heard of many ppl kill deer w a 9mm pistol they said the deer didn’t go far. For that matter there is no telling how many deer have fell to the lowly 22. If your state allows it go for it. I plan on hunting w a .40 carbine this year keeping all shots 40 yards and under.

PT1911
July 22, 2010, 10:28 AM
Would it be my first choice? no
Would I hesitate to pull the trigger if I had the shot? no

Know your limitations and the limitations of the gun/cartridge you are using.

jrop11
July 22, 2010, 10:38 AM
That Ruger is horrific. I actually own one and the trigger travel is about 37 minutes. By the time the pin hit's the shell the animal will had died of old age....

jrop11
July 22, 2010, 10:40 AM
Hey ONLY are you using the Cx4 storm .40? That was my original post at the top that the .45 I am using is a "Rifle" chambered in a pistol caliber. I could go with a lighter bullet to get over 1000 FPS.

Thanks

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 10:41 AM
I think I'll try hunting deer with my NAA super companion this year. It's legal since it's not a rimfire. :rolleyes: I have killed one doe at 80 yards with a rifle in a handgun caliber, a Rossi 92 in .357 magnum. It pushes a 165 grain bullet at 1900 fps. They also offer that gun in .454 Casull. I'd like to have one of those.

jrop11
July 22, 2010, 10:44 AM
That would be perfect for smaller hogs if you can get it right behind the ear. Maybe just a tad too weak for deer, but if you're confident take the shot. You've gotta find it :) I'm just sayin...

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 10:49 AM
Yeah, I figure the little super companion is the deal. I just need to get inside 10 feet and I'm golden. But that's "hunting" and you have to be a "hunter", right? :D Hey, I've killed hogs with a .22......in the trap.

The .357 will do anything a 170 grain bullet at 2000 fps from a .30-30 will do to 100 yards. I mainly like the .454 because it uses a screw in plunger in the magazine making it much easier to unload when I get back to the truck. I like the little carbine for just bopping around on my place, but usually carry a little heavier SKS because it's easier to unload. But, it does have .30-30 power, too, with Wolf 154 soft point and is pretty accurate. You guys can play with your toys. I'll shoot game with a real gun.

jrop11
July 22, 2010, 10:54 AM
What I carry usually depends on what I am after and where I am. If I am in middle GA swamps and I know there are a lot of Hogs I'll carry my .44 on my hip and a 30.06. That's stalking. If I am in a stand on my land I'll usually have my Kimber .45 in a holster and use either the 30-30 Marlin or my 30-06. This year I wanted to mix it up and try the .45. I would even attempt that on a hog. I've perforated a 185 pound sow with a 320 grain .44 and she still came after me! They're not unstoppable they just have a very small DRT zone. This went right through her shoulders and she was madder then hell.

jrop11
July 22, 2010, 10:55 AM
She's in my freezer now :)

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 11:03 AM
I'm going slightly (not completely, it's an inline with a scope) retro this season. .50 caliber thumper. :D I never carry a handgun on the stand unless it's my primary, just gets in the way. I am thinkin' about packin' my Ruger Old Army, though, while hunting with the smoke pole. That Ruger is ACCURATE and I've thought of just using it, may try sometime. It pushes a 220 grain Lee conical to 1300+ fps with a full charge of 777, pretty good approximation of a light .44 mag load. I do have my CCW in a pocket 24/7, but that's not for hunting. Comes in handy when I trap a hog, though. I've shot 'em in the trap with everything from an NAA .22 to a .45 Colt. They all died....eventually. Head shots are lethal even with a .22.

jrop11
July 22, 2010, 11:21 AM
Do you guys have actual boars or javelina? We get some monsters in South GA. They get even bigger in North Fla around Jacksonville. The smallest I would go on those would be a .22 magnum :) I don't like having to run up trees anymore.

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 12:22 PM
I don't have Javelina on my place, but they are south and west of here. Lots of 'em down at Aransas NWR along with the wild hogs. On my place, they're almost pure European stock boar, I've found out by googling and reading, come from stock that was put here on the Powderhorn ranch in the 30s. They're mean, lean, and fugly, but don't get THAT big. I've never seen one much over 300 lbs and 98 percent of 'em don't get a lot over 250. These aren't feral, though. These are the real deal. I never really realized that, just thought they'd been in the wild a long time, until I read that about the hogs from the Powderhorn. I'd heard the story, but figured it was just legend.

The pic is a little big.... http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=108125&d=1256782257

MCgunner
July 22, 2010, 12:31 PM
Ah, here's the story of our hogs I was talking about......

http://books.google.com/books?id=rh0LmDWdEI4C&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=wild+hogs+powderhorn+ranch&source=bl&ots=VYJ1VmkWjI&sig=kdenr0Qe1MMB6j2zQMkAdWEfj_k&hl=en&ei=qmNITMbSEYGB8ga66bnkDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wild%20hogs%20powderhorn%20ranch&f=false

Navy_Guns
July 23, 2010, 08:20 PM
Shot placement!
Put an expanding HP through the heart, spine, neck = done deal.
Put a LRN low in a lung or something, you might have an archery-type tracking job ahead of you...

Fred-Iowa
December 19, 2010, 12:19 AM
45 ACP is plenty from my experience. I just put a tag on an Iowa buck I shot this morning. One shot from 80 yards , he dropped dead in his tracks. I used a 200 Gr XTP factory load. And the cherry on top is I did it with my Hi-Point FMJ 45 ! Yep a $165 handgun. I have the factory provided ghost ring rear sight mounted.

dzelenka
December 19, 2010, 12:38 AM
A .45 ACP with a 230 gr Golden Saber will work on white tail. With pistol bullets, especially those that don't expand, a flat point, even if it is on a non-expanded hollow point transmits the most energy and kills the best. Also, with handguns, penetration is key.

Semi-wadcutters are not necessarily the best choice. The original Kieth SWC was a good killer because it has a relatively flat point. A better choice than a run of the mill SWC would be one of the LBT designs like the LFN (long flat nose) - deep penetration, good shock transmission, wound channels look like Barnes X bullets made them. Semi-wadcutters designed for the .45 ACP are target bullets with very small meplats. They cut nice holes in paper, but they are not big game bullets.

noob_shooter
December 20, 2010, 12:26 AM
not the greatest round, but can easily kill a deer under 50yards assuming shot placement was accurate..

GooseGestapo
December 20, 2010, 11:29 PM
In Georgia, the case law only supports a conviction for FMJ type ammo. A lead semi-wadcutter, lead roundnose, Hollow point, or soft point would be considered an "expanding" type bullet whether or not it expanded in use.

A .45acp really dosen't kill or affect a target so much as by kinetic energy as expressed by the ft/lbs figure which favors a high velocity bullet. Rather, the momentum figure velocity x bullet weight in grains / 7000 which is a constant converting weight to mass (pounds to newtons). Also know by the Pounds/feet figure.

This latter figure better describes the .45acp which puts it on par with the .243wcf with a 100gr Spt.

I've taken several deer with the .40S&W and 10mmAuto with 155-200gr bullets. Performance under 75yds is on par with the .30/30 and .35Rem rifles. I've also taken deer with a .452" 200gr SWC (Lee copy of H&G #68) in a sabot from a .50cal m/l at ~1500fps. All of the above loads and guns taking over a dozen deer have resulted in only one bullet recovered. That was a ~200lb deer shot front-on with the .50cal m/l load at 40 feet, and the .452" 200gr SWC lodged in the paunch (stomach/rumen) after breaking the spine and taking out approx 3" of it. Penetration was still more than 2'. The semi-wadcutter not so much expands as the front section collapses and "rivets" making more of a round-nose or wadcutter. From the .45acp, it essentially cuts a "cookie cutter" hole through the deer and rapid death if not casused by CNS disruption (cutting the spine) but from the rapid blood loss. One deer I shot with the 200gr SWC was a doe at ~40yds broadside through the heart. As it ran from in front of the smoke plume, it was pumping two streams of blood out of 1/2" holes on both sides. It ran about 75' and leaned as it ran, till it hit the ground on it's side and then went into slow motion running motion, and then quit.... Quite a stunning show.

Shot placement is still the most critical factor.

In Jr. High School, I read the short story by Rudyard Kipling (author of "The Jungle Book" and many other works); called "Riki Tiki Tavi". He recounted the time that his gun bearer left him in the lurch while trying to take a warthog for the dinner table. He was treed by a previously wounded Cape Buffalo and had to spend the night in an accacia tree. He stated he wasn't too worried about a leopard joining him while the bull was beneath him waiting on HIM.
Come morning he used his shoe laces and a safety pin to "fish" his Colt M1911 from the bottom of the accacia tree where it fell from his holster during the rapid ascent of the tree the previous evening. Once retrieved, he used 27rds of hard-ball to disable and eventually put down the Buffalo, which he induced to charge a "scare crow/Matador" he made with his pants and shirt stuffed with leaves and dangled by his shoe laces. He shot downward into the Buff as it passed under him. Eventually several rounds found their way into the buffs lungs as he described the buff blowing blood from it's nostrils as it charged the dummy. After the buff expired, he left the tree, retrieved his rifle (caliber not specified, but I seem to remember him mentioning a .318 Wesley & Richardson, and proceded to go hunting for his "former" gun-bearer.......

I do remember getting an "A" on the book report, however.....

Pigspitter
December 20, 2010, 11:51 PM
I'm a couple pounds heavier than you're average Georgia deer and I'm pretty sure a 45ACP would have no trouble killing me from that range with a good hit. For some odd reason, people seem to think whitetails are as tough as a plate mail covered T-Rex on a PCP binge. As far as Georgia law goes, it's any centerfire cartridge .22 cal or above with expanding bullets.

Kachok
December 21, 2010, 12:40 AM
I am not a fan of auto handguns on deer the OGW "Optimal Game Weight" of the 45ACP is only 68lbs at the muzzle! The 10mm, 44 mag and 357mag are much more suitable if you feel that you have to hunt with a pistol, their OGW is 120lbs and over.

mr.trooper
December 21, 2010, 09:09 PM
The 'formulas' are only worth what stock you put into them. They are in no way empirical, or objective in either their construction or their output.

If I were hunting with a non-magnum handgun, I would go with a hard cast SWC to ensure adequate penetration; especially If I were going to push it to 50 yards or more... but that's just my opinion.

Kachok
December 21, 2010, 09:29 PM
These formulas determine downrange momentum and energy, both of which are critical factors in creating soft tissue damage. If you honestly beleve that there is somthing magical about a .45 APC that allows it to ignore the laws of physics then you sir are delusional. Can a 45 ACP kill a deer...Yes so can a 22LR but I WILL report any such irresponsible behavior to the local game warden if I ever see it. I would rather someone hunt them with a 223, the .45 lacks energy/momentum for reliable quick kills. I have never seen someone dumb enough to try one on deer in person but I have seen people try them on hogs with poor results. Save your 45 for the range and leave it at home when you are after liveing breathing targets it just does not have the punch needed for reliable kills.
BTW 9mm FMJs penatrate hog skulls much more easly then 45s do.

black timber
December 21, 2010, 10:09 PM
How long is the barrel on that thing? I think you could use a SWC load and get some pretty impressive velocity with a .45 rifle. Have you chronoed that thing?

black timber
December 21, 2010, 10:11 PM
Hey ONLY are you using the Cx4 storm .40? That was my original post at the top that the .45 I am using is a "Rifle" chambered in a pistol caliber. I could go with a lighter bullet to get over 1000 FPS.

Thanks
How long is the barrel on that thing? I think you could use a SWC load and get some pretty impressive velocity with a .45 rifle. Have you chronoed that thing?

black timber
December 21, 2010, 10:29 PM
Did a quick google check and it seems the .45 doesn't gain much in a rifle ,makes sense. I wonder if you could use a slower than normal powder to take advantage of the bbl length? Buffalo Bore claims a .45+p 255 hard cast @ 960fps out of a 5" bbl. Even if the rifle only gained 30-50 fps with that load, a .45 cal. 255 hard cast @ 1000 fps should be fine to 50 yards or so, I bet it would be through n through on a broadside. I wouldn't use any self defense ammo.

Kachok
December 21, 2010, 10:40 PM
You could work up loads that made a few more fps by using more slightly slower burning powder (compressed load), but truth be told even with a thousand fps I don't think the 45 is an ethical hunting firearm, many states do not allow it by law, 10mm, 357s and 44 mags usualy are allowed though because they carry higher energy and momentum then any 45ACP load.

Ridgerunner665
December 21, 2010, 10:50 PM
Orignally posted by Kachok
These formulas determine downrange momentum and energy, both of which are critical factors in creating soft tissue damage. If you honestly beleve that there is somthing magical about a .45 APC that allows it to ignore the laws of physics then you sir are delusional. Can a 45 ACP kill a deer...Yes so can a 22LR but I WILL report any such irresponsible behavior to the local game warden if I ever see it. I would rather someone hunt them with a 223, the .45 lacks energy/momentum for reliable quick kills. I have never seen someone dumb enough to try one on deer in person but I have seen people try them on hogs with poor results. Save your 45 for the range and leave it at home when you are after liveing breathing targets it just does not have the punch needed for reliable kills.
BTW 9mm FMJs penatrate hog skulls much more easly then 45s do.

I don't normally do this (call BS)...but since I've killed a dozen or so deer with a 45acp (a 1911, 4.25" barrel)...I feel the need to set the record straight.

I have pics that are already posted on this and other forums of a 45acp bullet recovered from deer, a 230 grain hollowpoint bullet, all fired from the same pistol (the 1911)...of all the deer I shot while hunting I was only able to recover 1 bullet...a 230 grain Golden Sabre (pictured below), it was fired at a steep downward angle because I was 45 feet above the deer...that bullet entered high on the left shoulder, through the shoulder blade, through a rib (3 inches of rib missing...I have pics), through the lungs, through the lower part of the right shoulder, exited the "armpit" area, re-entered the upper right leg, broke the leg, and was found just under the skin on the far side...I have pics of all of that (it well documented on 1911forum also)

Last year...while feeding the horses I jumped a doe that had an arrow sticking out of her guts, she was weak...but she was doing her best to get away from me so I did the only thing I could do since she was going almost straight away from me...I shot to stop her.

I shot her through the right side of the pelvis from about 20 yards, she dropped like a rock....when I got to her she was about done but not quite, so I finished her with a head shot that exited the back of her neck...I wondered why she had blood coming out of her nose though so I investigated...the bullet that had entered her right hip and went through her pelvis....was found in her left lung. (230 grain XTP @ 830 fps...full grown adult doe, corn fed, appx. 150 lbs live weight)

This is the Golden Sabre...it was in 1 piece when I found it, but fell apart in my hand. Factory load...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/120_2077.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/120_2081.jpg

I don't have a pic of the XTP that went through the pelvis...I do still have the bullet though, and it looks exactly like this one that was recovered 16 inches deep in wet phone books.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/126_2642.jpg

Some say the 9mm penetrates better than the 45....and that is true if you're shooting glass, car doors, block walls....but when it comes to bones, muscle, and blood....the old 45 can do all the penetrating that will ever be needed.

Beartooth also makes a 255 grain cast bullet that can be driven to 950 fps in a full size 1911...that puts it up there with the old 45 Colt loads, I wonder how many deer the ole 45 Colt has laid to rest.

EDITED TO ADD: All were 1 shot stops, no deer went more than 30 yards after being shot....and if you can't hit where you're aiming you don't need to be hunting with a rifle...let alone a pistol.

Kachok
December 21, 2010, 11:13 PM
Hard structure penatration (Like a pigs skull) the 9mm wins, soft tissue penatration the 45 has more momentum so it tends to drive a little deeper (27" with 230gr FMJs). Just like the 17HMR defeating lv 3 body armor, yet it's penatration in soft tissue is poor at best. Hunting with hard cast 45ACP is not legal here, for good reson. There is no good reson to go out into the woods with a 45 when you have a perfectly good rifle that is MUCH more capable of clean kills then any 45ACP bullet. This is not a contest to see who can kill with the most pathetic bullet. USE A REAL GUN. I do commend you for putting a poor wounded deer out of it's suffering, given the same situation I would have done the same, but I would never EVER bring out somthing as puney as a 45 for hunting a living thing, I like quick clean kills way too much. I have never had to track anything I have ever shot in 20+ years of hunting. It was all either bang-flop or 5-20 yard sprints.

roach4047
December 21, 2010, 11:16 PM
The OP mentioned he is considering using a Carbine chambered in 45 ACP. It seems that a lot of people missed the fact that he stated he is considering the use of a rifle. He did NOT state that he was considering using a pistol.

So far as which rounds to consider. I'd take a look at something offered by Buffalo Bore or Double tap. Some of their hotter loads are advertised as follows for the Double Tap:

The fastest 185gr loading on the market! All in a package that is just shy of a +p rating!

Caliber : .45ACP

Bullet : 185gr. Nosler JHP

Ballistics : 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911


And that's out of a 5" 1911 barrel. I imagine it's a good bit more impressive being fired from a carbine. That I believe would do the job very nicely.

They have a number of rounds to choose from but I'd say give them a call and discuss things over...

I like this the best...

This is the heaviest and deepest penetrating 45ACP load available anywhere. Safe for all 45ACP pistols rated for +P. Not recommended for Glock and HKUSP pistols because of the polygonal rifling.. A perfect woods and hunting load for your 45!

Caliber : .45 ACP+P

Bullet : 255gr. Keith Style SWC Hardcast Lead

Ballistics : 875fps - 434 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl.

This would make a great hunting round for the weapon that the OP mentions. I'm not all that familiar with the ballistics side of most ammo but I'd suspect that is would do just as well as a .410 slug gun if not better. Should easily do the job at the distances the OP is considering.

Roach

Ridgerunner665
December 21, 2010, 11:21 PM
The rifle is no more capable of clean kills on a lil ole deer than the pistol...it has more to do with the person doing the shooting.

As Forrest Gump said....thats all I have to say about that (I've told this story enough already...LOL)

Ridgerunner665
December 21, 2010, 11:22 PM
I didn't miss the carbine part of it...but the 45acp gains VERY little from a 16 inch barrel...very little, sometimes nothing...depends on the load...but it is never enough to make a significant difference.

Ridgerunner665
December 21, 2010, 11:28 PM
I will add one more thing...something I learned from messing around with 45 Super loads.

Most of the time, more velocity means less penetration...at least with bullets designed for 45acp velocity.

mr.trooper
December 23, 2010, 01:39 AM
These formulas determine downrange momentum and energy, both of which are critical factors in creating soft tissue damage. If you honestly beleve that there is somthing magical about a .45 APC that allows it to ignore the laws of physics then you sir are delusional.

Um... I think you vastly misunderstood me.

I didn't say anything about momentum or energy - those are hard empirical facts, which are easily calculated.

By 'formulas', I was jibbing at things like TKO, M&S number, and OGW, which erroneously attempt to determine a projectiles lethality without even considering shot placement.

I don't have a boner for the 45acp or anything like that. No magic in my eyes.

IdahoLT1
December 25, 2010, 10:43 AM
I will add one more thing...something I learned from messing around with 45 Super loads.

Most of the time, more velocity means less penetration...at least with bullets designed for 45acp velocity.

Uhh....use .452" bullets designed for .454 casull and .460 S&W?

Kachok
December 25, 2010, 01:45 PM
I would like to make a specail note here about the perforance of the flat point solid bullets that many of us are talking about. The myth is that the wound tract is the same at 45-70 speeds and 45 ACP speeds, people assume since it deos not expand that any 45ACP that will shoot through a deer does just as good. This is false, the meplet on the hardcast and flat point solids is a game changer on soft tissue, read "The Mechanics of Terminal Ballistics" and you will see that the difference between 800fps impact and 1400fps impact is HUGE. At 800fps the meplet did not cause a noticable increase in the size of the wound canal it only mesured .50" with a 1400fps impact the wound canal was a huge 1.37". This was tested with a 300gr 44 mag hardcast with a .34" meplet. I stand by my statemant that the .45ACP is not an ethical or practical deer hunting caliber, .357mag/10mm is the practical minimum and 44mag makes alot more sence then that. As hunters it is our responsability to ensure quick kills, and recoverd game. I just do not see the 45 being a practical tool for that purpose.
In the hundreds of ballistics tests I have seen no 45ACP bullet has even done the level of soft tissue damage of a .223 with a controled expansion bullet, and I don't recomand them for deer hunting either.

Harley Quinn
December 25, 2010, 02:01 PM
I would not use one as a rule, but 45 in a slow expanding or soft nose, can do the job (heck even the round nose placed as mentioned below)...50yds be my guess...Ditto on quote...


Shot placement!
Put an expanding HP through the heart, spine, neck = done deal.
Put a LRN low in a lung or something, you might have an archery-type tracking job ahead of you...

Lets look at this Cartridge (that won the west) 44-40

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
200 gr (13 g) lead 1,245 ft/s (379 m/s) 688 ft·lbf (933 J)
217 gr (14.1 g) lead 1,190 ft/s (360 m/s) 682 ft·lbf (925 J)
225 gr (14.6 g) lead 750 ft/s (230 m/s) 281 ft·lbf (381 J)

Hmmm;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

Kachok
December 28, 2010, 12:49 PM
Won the west is one thing, quick ethical kills on game anamals is quite another. If you are the type that beleves that the 45-70 was bang-flopping 2,000lbs bison with body shots at 500 yards there really is nothing I can do to cure you, keep on beleving that just don't ever try it. Those that think the 44-40 was the be all end all deer hunting wepon, well there ain't much I can do for them either, at least it is more effective then a 45 ACP so go right ahead, just get within 50 yards before you shoot like so many of the old timers did. Just ask yourself one simple question, why has the 44-40 all but died out and the 30-30 still is one of the most popular cartrages out there?

Harley Quinn
December 28, 2010, 01:24 PM
Just giving up some information about a comparison of sorts with the OP (45acp) and 44-40 round popular pre 45 ACP competing with the then, 45 Long Colt...

The 30-30 is a full time rifle cartridge...The 44-40 was good for the time frame, it appears...:confused:

Not sure about the killing of Bison to be honest:D Here are the ones used back in the day...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

The 45-70 was a man killer, now it has developed into one that is respected (hunting) if loaded to its max...

Regards

rocky1
December 28, 2010, 01:42 PM
Hard structure penatration (Like a pigs skull) the 9mm wins, soft tissue penatration the 45 has more momentum so it tends to drive a little deeper (27" with 230gr FMJs). Just like the 17HMR defeating lv 3 body armor, yet it's penatration in soft tissue is poor at best. Hunting with hard cast 45ACP is not legal here, for good reson. There is no good reson to go out into the woods with a 45 when you have a perfectly good rifle that is MUCH more capable of clean kills then any 45ACP bullet. This is not a contest to see who can kill with the most pathetic bullet. USE A REAL GUN. I do commend you for putting a poor wounded deer out of it's suffering, given the same situation I would have done the same, but I would never EVER bring out somthing as puney as a 45 for hunting a living thing, I like quick clean kills way too much. I have never had to track anything I have ever shot in 20+ years of hunting. It was all either bang-flop or 5-20 yard sprints.
So in other words you are saying that if I were to shoot you with my puny 45, it wouldn't kill you, assuming that you weigh more than 68 lbs?

rocky1
December 28, 2010, 01:50 PM
In respect to the OP.... At limited distances, say something similar to bow hunting yardage, with a good hollow point round of choice, (I personally prefer the 185 grain because they are a little faster), yes a 45 ACP will drop a deer with a properly placed shot. And, having dropped a 150 lb hog at 20 - 25 yards last year with mine, I think I can say that with some authority.

As for why I might want to carry such a puny weapon to hunt with Kachok, I was on my tractor mowing and underbrushing the field, and it's kinda difficult to tote the 06 on the tractor.

HGUNHNTR
December 28, 2010, 01:54 PM
I have had much success with the 45 acp in the deer woods. It is legal to use in my state, and provides clean kills when used at appropriate ranges. There is so much misinformation floating around that is based on nothing more than hearsay much of which is a result of parroting other misinformed individuals.

rocky1
December 28, 2010, 01:54 PM
I don't normally do this (call BS)...but since I've killed a dozen or so deer with a 45acp (a 1911, 4.25" barrel)...I feel the need to set the record straight.


You might as well, because if you don't I'm going to! :rolleyes:

Harley Quinn
December 28, 2010, 02:51 PM
Many consider the 10mm to be a real killer:uhoh: The hottie 45+Ps ACP, in the lighter bullet weights (as mentioned about the 185 grn) get real close to the ability of the 10mm, does not have the penetration some mention, but then again, it is bullet design that helps in that case... I like the 400 Corbon, it is, right there with both of the ones mentioned...

None would be my choice for carry though :) If I was going to hunt with a pistol...But if I had any of them and it was no further than 50 yds with a good side angle shot into the boiler room, Id take it...;)

Regards

IdahoLT1
December 29, 2010, 07:11 AM
Many consider the 10mm to be a real killer The hottie 45+Ps ACP, in the lighter bullet weights (as mentioned about the 185 grn) get real close to the ability of the 10mm, does not have the penetration some mention, but then again, it is bullet design that helps in that case...

Actually the +p 185gr 45acp is 150fps slower than the 10mm 185gr bullets. Buffalo bore has a 220gr 10mm thats moving at 1200fps. They're 230gr .45acp +p is only going 950fps

rocky1
December 29, 2010, 11:55 AM
:scrutiny: Y'all want me to go shoot one with the 40 too?

Harley Quinn
December 29, 2010, 01:01 PM
Got to wonder what the pressure is in the 10mm BB :eek: I feel from a reloading look at things those who want to push the pressure some in the 45's are safer than the 10mm...

I mentioned earlier, I like the 400 Corbon, good results and the pressures are not so high...:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto
*******
The 10mm Auto earned a reputation for battering guns early on, largely because manufacturers attempted to simply rechamber a .45 ACP design for the 10mm Auto.[citation needed] The .45 ACP works at a much lower pressure and velocity, and the frame and slide designed to handle the .45 ACP cannot handle the greatly increased forces of a 10mm Auto without substantial strengthening. Later guns, such as the Glock 20, Glock 29, and the Smith & Wesson Model 1006, were built around the cartridge to help increase durability and reliability.
******

Actually the +p 185gr 45acp is 150fps slower than the 10mm 185gr bullets. Buffalo bore has a 220gr 10mm thats moving at 1200fps. They're 230gr .45acp +p is only going 950fps
Rocky1 mentions,
Y'all want me to go shoot one with the 40 too?
*****
I think it would do the job;)

mbt2001
December 29, 2010, 05:50 PM
With the proviso that the shots need to be kept in close distance, and the shooter needs to be capable of delivering accurate shots at the range of distance decided on, then yes, the .45 is capable of putting meat on the table.

Mitch from LA
December 30, 2010, 08:10 PM
In Georgia, the case law only supports a conviction for FMJ type ammo. A lead semi-wadcutter, lead roundnose, Hollow point, or soft point would be considered an "expanding" type bullet whether or not it expanded in use.

A .45acp really dosen't kill or affect a target so much as by kinetic energy as expressed by the ft/lbs figure which favors a high velocity bullet. Rather, the momentum figure velocity x bullet weight in grains / 7000 which is a constant converting weight to mass (pounds to newtons). Also know by the Pounds/feet figure.

This latter figure better describes the .45acp which puts it on par with the .243wcf with a 100gr Spt.

I've taken several deer with the .40S&W and 10mmAuto with 155-200gr bullets. Performance under 75yds is on par with the .30/30 and .35Rem rifles. I've also taken deer with a .452" 200gr SWC (Lee copy of H&G #68) in a sabot from a .50cal m/l at ~1500fps. All of the above loads and guns taking over a dozen deer have resulted in only one bullet recovered. That was a ~200lb deer shot front-on with the .50cal m/l load at 40 feet, and the .452" 200gr SWC lodged in the paunch (stomach/rumen) after breaking the spine and taking out approx 3" of it. Penetration was still more than 2'. The semi-wadcutter not so much expands as the front section collapses and "rivets" making more of a round-nose or wadcutter. From the .45acp, it essentially cuts a "cookie cutter" hole through the deer and rapid death if not casused by CNS disruption (cutting the spine) but from the rapid blood loss. One deer I shot with the 200gr SWC was a doe at ~40yds broadside through the heart. As it ran from in front of the smoke plume, it was pumping two streams of blood out of 1/2" holes on both sides. It ran about 75' and leaned as it ran, till it hit the ground on it's side and then went into slow motion running motion, and then quit.... Quite a stunning show.

Shot placement is still the most critical factor.

In Jr. High School, I read the short story by Rudyard Kipling (author of "The Jungle Book" and many other works); called "Riki Tiki Tavi". He recounted the time that his gun bearer left him in the lurch while trying to take a warthog for the dinner table. He was treed by a previously wounded Cape Buffalo and had to spend the night in an accacia tree. He stated he wasn't too worried about a leopard joining him while the bull was beneath him waiting on HIM.
Come morning he used his shoe laces and a safety pin to "fish" his Colt M1911 from the bottom of the accacia tree where it fell from his holster during the rapid ascent of the tree the previous evening. Once retrieved, he used 27rds of hard-ball to disable and eventually put down the Buffalo, which he induced to charge a "scare crow/Matador" he made with his pants and shirt stuffed with leaves and dangled by his shoe laces. He shot downward into the Buff as it passed under him. Eventually several rounds found their way into the buffs lungs as he described the buff blowing blood from it's nostrils as it charged the dummy. After the buff expired, he left the tree, retrieved his rifle (caliber not specified, but I seem to remember him mentioning a .318 Wesley & Richardson, and proceded to go hunting for his "former" gun-bearer.......

I do remember getting an "A" on the book report, however.....
There was nothing like that in Riki Tiki Tavi. It was about a mongoose that becomes a boy's pet and kills a pair of cobras.

Kachok
December 30, 2010, 08:28 PM
There are many great rifles and handguns that are designed to kill deer sized game very quickly, the .45ACP is NOT one of those, and really does not fit the bill, neither does the 40 S&W or the 357 SIG. Sure they CAN kill a 200 lbs anamal but so will a 22LR and you won't see me deer hunting with one of them either. If recoil is your issue 243 Win 257 Roberts and 6.5x55 all do the trick very well with virtualy ZERO recoil.

mbt2001
December 30, 2010, 08:56 PM
It is important, for a variety of reasons, to know what the .45 is capable of doing. For instance, car breaks down, etc... and the carry gun has to be used to procure edibles.

I do not see a problem using handguns on game, provided that the shooter takes his job seriously and is capable of putting rounds on target at reasonable distances.

TexasPatriot.308
December 30, 2010, 10:52 PM
why do it, there are firearms made for hunting, firearms made for combat, self defense...dont think the .45 acp was ever intended for hunting....if thats all you got I guess..but otherwise use a "hunting weapon" for 2 legged vermin the .45 is the ideal weapon.

mbt2001
December 31, 2010, 12:52 AM
why do it

For the aforementioned reasons.

x_wrench
December 31, 2010, 11:44 AM
can it be done, certainly, i know of several deer that have fallen to a 22lr handgun. so a 45 automatic rifle should be no problem. just remember to limit your shooting to the capabilities of the gun, and you will be fine. also, double check the laws in your state. many of them make no sense, but they are still the law.

Harley Quinn
December 31, 2010, 01:42 PM
What:confused:
It might have been another short story in the Jungle books volume two, but not "Rikki Tikki Tavi" which was there also...

http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/rtt.html
Easy to confuse after so many years, I can understand that:)

In Jr. High School, I read the short story by Rudyard Kipling (author of "The Jungle Book" and many other works); called "Riki Tiki Tavi". He recounted the time that his gun bearer left him in the lurch while trying to take a warthog for the dinner table. He was treed by a previously wounded Cape Buffalo and had to spend the night in an accacia tree. He stated he wasn't too worried about a leopard joining him while the bull was beneath him waiting on HIM.
Come morning he used his shoe laces and a safety pin to "fish" his Colt M1911 from the bottom of the accacia tree where it fell from his holster during the rapid ascent of the tree the previous evening. Once retrieved, he used 27rds of hard-ball to disable and eventually put down the Buffalo, which he induced to charge a "scare crow/Matador" he made with his pants and shirt stuffed with leaves and dangled by his shoe laces. He shot downward into the Buff as it passed under him. Eventually several rounds found their way into the buffs lungs as he described the buff blowing blood from it's nostrils as it charged the dummy. After the buff expired, he left the tree, retrieved his rifle (caliber not specified, but I seem to remember him mentioning a .318 Wesley & Richardson, and proceded to go hunting for his "former" gun-bearer.......

pat86323
January 1, 2011, 02:56 AM
Heres my take on it, overgunned is pretty much never a problem, under gunned has a much much higher probability of being a problem. If you feel comfortable going out there with the intention of using a caliber that you were so unsure of the killing power you needed to post the question here.......go for it. Ive never wounded a deer and not been able to recover it, but i think it would be a terrible feeling. Why hunt with something marginal when you could easily use something else. Its not a question of whether or not it can happen........its a question of ethics. My ethics do not allow me to do things like this because i care alot about the animals i hunt and think they deserve more respect then trying to use the minimum possible tool for the job.

redhawk500
January 4, 2011, 10:42 PM
I have used self defense bullets in .45 ACP to take deer but like bullets that hold together and exit. The deer are just as dead with 185 grain JHPs that don't exit but I am just stating my preference. I'd use the Speer 200grain Gold Dot +P factory load, based on the old Lawman ammunition which left a dime size exit hole on a broad side deer. I like double lung shots so my preferences may vary from yours. The 225 grain Speer soft point should do nicely or a somewhat heavier Sierra 240 grain. If you handload pick a velocity that matches the expected velocity the manufacturer wants used with the bullet you are interested in using. If a bullet is specifically designed for a 454 Casull, it won't expand much in a .45 ACP class pistol. Bullet weight doesn't automatically guarantee penetration. My last deer shot broadside with a 230 grain Hydra-Shok didn't have an exit wound bigger than a fingernail. My opinion is that hollowpoints kill better than solids on high lung shots. Tough cast bullets penetrate shoulders better. Pick your bullet style according to your hunting style and what shot's you are willing to pass up.

lizziedog1
January 5, 2011, 12:39 AM
Another number to look at is sectional density.

This latter figure better describes the .45acp which puts it on par with the .243wcf with a 100gr Spt.



A 230 grain .45 ACP bullet's SD is .162.

A 100 grain .243 bullet's SD is .242.

IdahoLT1
January 5, 2011, 10:55 PM
I'm far from a fan of the .45acp but if any of you think its not adequate inside 30yds, id assume you would be again.st archery hunting.

pat86323
January 7, 2011, 12:32 AM
actually i think an arrow would be a MUCH better tool at short range. Have you seen the wounds that a quality broadhead makes? Again not that 45 wont do it but why even go down that road when there are literally hundreds of better tools for the job.

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