[rm86]

I'm just curious, I've been reading a lot about H&K pistols and it seems that everybody raves about the P7. I'd love to hear some opinions from you THR guys who have had experience with it. It's my understanding that they are no longer made, only on occasional limited production runs. Is this correct?

[Steve_NEPhila]

Shoot one and you will see for yourself. Imagine a tack driver made of all steel by Germans that is damn near perfect when it comes to ergonomics and performance. Do the pepsi challenge....

[Balrog]

I owned one for a long time. It was very accurate. It is also bottom heavy and has a funky manual of arms. Mags are also very expensive.

It costs twice as much as a Glock 19, shoots about 10% better, and holds half the ammo. You decide if its right for you.

One thing I will tell you is the owners of the P7 are EXTREMELY sensitive to any criticism of this pistol, and will soon be by flame, defame, and otherwise abuse me. Its OK to call a P7 owner's wife ugly, but they will go ballistic if anyone suggests the P7 is anything other than the right hand of God.

[Ruggles]

Because you can shoot 50 rounds at the range and then heat your lunch up on the darn thing. They heat up like ovens!

They are really nice guns but to me they suck as range guns for the reason listed above.

HK still spits out limited runs now and then from what I understand. Pretty easy to find new and used on the aftermarket although they are getting more expensive.

I have owned two and sold both as they never really filled a role for me.

[rjrivero]

I haven't heard of any "limited production runs." The P7PSP was originally designed to meet the requirements setforth by the German Police. Then, later it was modified to the P7M8. Larger trigger guard, and heat shield along with the "American" mag release were among the changes as was the firing pin removal.

The New Jersey Police adopted it for use, as well as some other smaller police forces in the United States. The P7M13 was developed to compete for the United States Military Contract. There are other varients, developed for specific open contracts.

The gas retarded design allows for a fixed barrel to allow for greater accuracy, and for a lighter slide. It does a great job of keeping recoil at a minimum.

The big deal of the gun is that you can carry a round chambered and completely safe until it is drawn and the cocking handle "squeeze cocker" is engaged. Then it can be fired without fumbling for a safety.

I have one, but don't shoot it much. I perfer a nice wheel gun. ;)

[IMTHDUKE]

They heat up like ovens

Yes, they are not for gurley men:)

[usp9]

Why does the H&K P7 have such a strong following?

They are great guns, fairly unique and easy to shoot well. They used to be more rare and that gave them some panache'.

[rm86]

Its OK to call a P7 owner's wife ugly, but they will go ballistic if anyone suggests the P7 is anything other than the right hand of God.


Haha I'll keep that in mind Balrog. I've heard that they do get really hot. I've also heard that because they are so heavy in the bottom that they may not sit well in some holsters. I'll have to see if there are any ranges that have one for rent around here, but I doubt it.

[Pizzagunner]

Simply put, it was the last H&K pistol worth its asking price. Those days went with the discontinuation of the P7.

[badbadtz560]

I don't have one, but I believe it's all about the "simplicity" of its usage and the very unique safety system combined together. After I graduate and get enough money for one, it's first on my list :D

there's no bullet in the chamber until you pick it up. Then it's ready to shoot w/ "amazing" accuracy w/ its super light trigger.

Any other firearm w/ such a light trigger requires a safety that needs to be de-activated via some means other than just pulling the gun out of its holster. Most guns nowadays just put a super heavy trigger or extra long pull and call it a day... which leads to all this preference-debating b/w when a trigger is heavy enough to be safe but still shootable... and u start running into issues w/ ppl shooting themselves in the foot or just not being able to handle the trigger pull

1911's get all the raves b/c of its awesome combat trigger right? but it loses points b/c LEOs could have trouble removing the safety. the p7 design fixed that, right?

I've also heard all these what-if stories about ppl's guns being taken and the bad guy won't know how to get the bullet in to the chamber b/c the p7 is so so unique...

either way.. try it.. then decide for yourself. Unfortunately, my only means to try it is to buy it first then decide if I like it :(

[cdsdss]

I've owned three, and loved and sold all of them. They are exceptionally well-made guns. They are stupid accurate dur to the polygonal rifling and fixed barrel. They also have the best trigger of any gun I've ever owned.

But they were--let's face it--a failed design. The squeeze-cocking mechanism, while perfectly functional, never caught on and was an answer to a question no one asked (not unlike H&K's P9S's frame-mounted hammer-cocking lever).

They're also exotic and pretty good-looking, so that adds some cache.

There's nothing wrong with the guns, but they don't really bring a lot to the party...

[rjrivero]

But they were--let's face it--a failed design. The squeeze-cocking mechanism, while perfectly functional, never caught on and was an answer to a question no one asked (not unlike H&K's P9S's frame-mounted hammer-cocking lever).

The on demand cocking mechanism was requisite for the German Police Request when the gun was designed.

The P9S frame mounted cocking/de-cocking lever was not the only innovative feature of the P9S. It was the first "polymer" gun, wasn't it? ;)

I'm not exactly an HK fanboy, but they have brought a lot of things to the table.

[cdsdss]

Was the P9s or the VP-70 the first polymer-framed handgun? I've heard both.

I'm not knocking H&K or slamming the P7. It's a great gun for all the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. But it's also an evolutionary dead-end.

[Pilot]

I have a P7M8 and a German police surplus P7 PSP which I often carry. With the rght holster (an you may be suprised at the number of generic "small auto" holsters that fit it) it carres extremely well. It is thin and compact but heavy, so a good belt is a must.

Somebod did a Pro/Con on the Cult of the P7 a while back, but the Pros far out way the cons. Two of which are irrelevant but seem to pop up as the boiggest cons.

Hot claim - yes after about 50 rounds the gun heats up. Either wear a shooting glove or put it down and shoot something else for a few ninutes. In a defensive situation, this is a non-isse.

9 round capacity - The gun is sized similarly to a .380 like a Beretta M85, Walther PPK or Sig P230/232. Its thin and compact. I have no problem with 9 rounds of anything.

The guns is a little diffferent due to its squeeze cocking mechanism and gas retarding system. That is a reason I like it. All my other semi-autos operate the same way. This is different. Its also very accurate, has low felt recoil which transfers directly back into your arm with little muzzle flip due to the lowe bore axis.

The only way your going to know if you like it is to shoot one. Most people like them, a few don't.

[usp9]

there's no bullet in the chamber until you pick it up. Then it's ready to shoot...

badbadtz560,
You seem to be under the inpression that the cocking mechanism also loads a round from the magazine to the chamber. It does not. The squeeze cock lever cocks the striker, (and conversely decocks the striker when released), allowing the trigger to be just a trigger without having to also to do striker cocking duty.

If there's no chambered round the gun won't fire.

[9mmepiphany]

Was the P9s or the VP-70 the first polymer-framed handgun? I've heard both.

the VP-70 was the first pistol with a fully polymer frame...i think that is why rjrivero placed polymer inside quotation marks. the P9S had it's skeleton frame (think automotive tube chassis) covered in ploymer at the hand interface points

besides being the safest carry gun that can be brought into action quickly...cock on draw, un-cock if you release pressure or if it falls out of your hand...it has the longest barrel in it's class, without increasing package size, which when combined with it's polygonal rifling yielded the highest bullet velocities.

for the OP: i think what you are referring to as limited runs are the release of LE trade-ins that are being imported Top Gun Supply just got some more in at a great price

[rcmodel]

there's no bullet in the chamber until you pick it upSay What??

Top Gun Supply just got some more in at a great priceNow, if they would just get some surplus magazines in at great prices too!
M13 mags = $90 bucks
P7 mags = $60 bucks
PSP mags = $70 bucks

rc

[armoredman]

We had a P7M8 at the range. Unlike the other HKs, it was a tank, ran forever, still got $600 out of it after all that abuse. I shot it several times, and I could not get used to it at all. I kept going back due to the raves, (and the free rental to range employees), but it never felt right to me.

[9mmepiphany]

posted by rcmodel
Now, if they would just get some surplus magazines in at great prices too!
M13 mags = $90 bucks
P7 mags = $60 bucks
PSP mags = $70 bucks

if it goes much higher, i might be convinced to sell some of my extras.

i gather you meant P7M8 mags were $60, as the official name of what we generally refer to as the PSP is really P7, while PSP pre-dated the P7 nomenclature

[Storm]

After reading this I went and did a quick inventory on how many P7 mags I have. I found five and am doing a happy dance as I tought I only had four. Need to get at least one more.

The P7 stands in a league of it's own. Innovative, dead accurate, a great trigger, low recoil, concealable, adequate capacity of 9mm, and dead sexy in an uber German way.

[maximus2161]

I have a nice P7 PSP i picked up that is in great condition. Came with a really nice Kramer Horsehide holster and spare mag, box, manual, tools, etc. I got it because I just wanted one. Its a great design, well made, and unique and it just works. No its not a range gun. But I do like it. Who knows one day I may part with it but right now I really am fond of it.

I like HKs. I have a HK P30 that is just excellent and my favorite carry gun. I also like Glocks too. I like them both different reasons. But they both work.

[RhinoDefense]

Trigger is excellent. Very accurate. Mild shooter due to weight. Great ergonomics. 9mm is cheap to shoot. Thin for concealment. User friendly operation. Solid engineering.

I bought mine recently as an heirloom for my son. When he gets old enough, I'm going to pass it on to him.

[steven58]

I own a P7 that I got from CDNN over a year ago. At just about $500 out the door, I felt it was a great bargain for the quality and history and it was virtually new in box.

The magazines are expensive but built like tanks, they will last forever.

Very accurate and easy to hit with under stress. Nice single action trigger.

For me, a great point shooting gun.

Cleaning it takes some getting used to as the insides do get dirty due to the blowback action. I just foam the whole thing scrub, flush and re lube.

Manual of arms is not that hard to acclimate to. I usually carry a compact 1911 and I'm able to use both. Hell, I can even shoot revolvers if I pay attention!

It's not a compact gun, it's a "condensed" gun. You get a full length barrel, a full size grip and all steel construction that while full weight, fits in a PPKS size box.

Mine has 3 actual uses for me:
1) It's my carry gun when I fly and don't want to risk checking my expensive compact 1911.

2) I use it with a Nemesis pocket holster in my ski jacket so I don't have to leave my pistol unattended while skiing. Only auto I'd feel safe doing that with it loaded.

3) In a Nemesis Cargo pocket holster it makes a great cold weather coat pocket gun. slim no snag and safe.

one last thing, when I first got it I showed it off to 6 friends who are avid shooters one is a LEO firearms training Sargent with 25 years in, another is a transit officer with 2 years and the rest a mix of prior military or not etc from my gun club.

With each one I did the same drill: Had one come up to the line with me, pistol is loaded and on the bench. I say "watch carefully" then I picked up the gun and fired 3 rounds, put it back on the bench and said "fire the gun" and started a stopwatch in my pocket. only one of them was able to get the pistol to fire without instruction and it took her over 2 minutes...

[Dobe]

for the OP: i think what you are referring to as limited runs are the release of LE trade-ins that are being imported Top Gun Supply just got some more in at a great price HK made two limited runs of 500 after they discontinued the P7M8. During the first limited run, the slides were stamped 1 of 500, etc. I'm not sure if the same were true of the second run.

[jmorris]

It has no where near the quantity of followers that say the 1911, glocks or even the relatively new XD has. It is unique and somewhat rare, that is the allure.

[9mmepiphany]

HK made two limited runs of 500 after they discontinued the P7M8. During the first limited run, the slides were stamped 1 of 500, etc. I'm not sure if the same were true of the second run.

i should have been more clear, i was referring to the P7 (what is often referred to as the PSP)

[brabham78]

There are many pistols that work as well or better than the P7. But one thing they have that other don't, is their uniqueness. They are a bit odd - the gas delayed blow back action, the grip-cock design, ect. No other gun shares their design features. They are "different", and that is why they have such a strong following. They also happen to have a very attractive appearance. I wouldn't mind owning one myself, even if they do get to hot to handle. ;)

[alpha6164]

I own a P7M8 and P7SP and love them both. I actually prefer the PSP because when you carry the P7M8 as IWB holster the mag release lever is a little too long and i have found the magazine popped out a 1/2" on a few occasions after getting out of the car. The PSP with the heel release does not have the same problem.

I own Sigs, other HKs, M&P etc. No hand gun i have ever shot, shoots as well as the P7 in my humble opinion. And trust me i am not a crazy fanboy. It does have its negatives as far as being heavy but and possibly not as high of a capacity but if 8+1 doesnt solve your self defense problems you have bigger issues. There are plenty of other way more modern 9mm guns that carry same or less rounds such as Sig 239, Kahr series, Walther PPS, etc.


The P7 points extremely natural and has one of the lowest bore axis around. The recoil is non-existent and has a sweet trigger. I have handed this hand gun that shot 5" groups at 10yards with my Sig 239 and suddenly their groups shrink to half. Myself when i shoot it i make a ragged hole at 10 yards with the same gun where with my Sig 239 or Walther PPS i get about 2" groups.

[Bentonville]

Buy one and see for yourself. Try these links:
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?127064-WTS-P7-Grade-B-s-On-Sale-499.95

http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=22&Page_Number=1&Index_Seq=552&Home_Page=

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?124980-WTS-Grade-A-P7-s

[cacop]

I had a P7 from 1980 and it was nice. It did get a little hot when at the range and the heel release was a little weird but it worked.

I loved it enough that I sold it to fund buying a P7M8. Then when I went to a gun store on whim and found a screaming deal on a P225 with k-kote and night sights. Shortly after HK discontinued producing them. The original plan was to use the HK as a duty gun but since my department didn't allow them at the time and even now they would except there is no longer a factory armorer's course there is no real way to use one on duty.

They are good guns but they have their issues like all guns.

[MikePGS]

I've never shot one, but they have a few features that intrigue me. Single stack, fixed barrel and the squeeze cocker "sound" like they would be cool on a gun. What doesn't sound cool is the reviews I've read where they say that after putting 50 or so rounds down the barrel it heats up and you have to let it cool down for a while.

[Pilot]

Its the frame getting hot that bothers people, not the barrel. The gas system heats up the upper frame after rapid firing during a range session of fifty or so rounds. Either wear a shooting glove when practicing or put it down and shoot something else for a few minutes until it cools. Its a superior, carry firearm and unless you plan on getting into situations that require continuous 50 round rapid expenditures of ammunition, don't worry about it.

If you want an excuse not to spend the $500 a nice P7 PSP currently costs to acquire, well you have one.

[Kingofthehill]

They are just BEAUTIFUL!

http://i26.tinypic.com/1z6sa40.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/zmmk8w.jpg

[Balrog]

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, Glocks look much better than a P7

[Dobe]

And here it goes.

[9mmepiphany]

To me, Glocks look much better than a P7

blasphemer ;)

[Jim K]

Well, the P7 lovers can have a field day with me. I was intrigued by the design and thought it was a good pistol - until I bought one.

Aside from being a lot bigger and heavier than most folks think, the thing is overengineered to heck and back. The squeeze cocking, rather than being an advantage, is a drawback, requiring that the shooter give it his attention at all times to make sure the gun is operational. Relax just a bit, lose focus a bit, and the gun will uncock and require a hard, long squeeze to get it back to shooting condition.

It is not like a grip safety, which has little tension and is squeezed automatically; that cocker requires a deliberate effort to function. I admit I have never been in a gun fight, but if I am, I want to be able to concentrate on the opponent, his actions, my aim and any danger area from my shots. I DON'T want to have to think about keeping a death grip on my gun.

I didn't mention the delayed blowback system, because in general it works OK; the heat is a problem only in extended firing and would have no impact in a police or defense gun.

Jim

[Dobe]

Manual of arms, Jim. What I have found, if one loosens the grip enough to decock the P7, the grip is too loose to manage recoil. It takes very little pressure to maintain the lever.

[9mmepiphany]

posted by Jim Keenan
The squeeze cocking, rather than being an advantage, is a drawback, requiring that the shooter give it his attention at all times to make sure the gun is operational. Relax just a bit, lose focus a bit, and the gun will uncock and require a hard, long squeeze to get it back to shooting condition.

It is not like a grip safety, which has little tension and is squeezed automatically; that cocker requires a deliberate effort to function. I admit I have never been in a gun fight, but if I am, I want to be able to concentrate on the opponent, his actions, my aim and any danger area from my shots. I DON'T want to have to think about keeping a death grip on my gun.

I didn't mention the delayed blowback system, because in general it works OK

it sounds like you were over squeezing your P-7

the cocking lever requires about 12 pounds to squeeze...like a firm handshake...and only about 3-4 pounds to maintain in that condition...like a compound bow...death gripping it only makes you tired, i hold it with light pressure from my middle finger

it is a very reliable action, the fluted chamber will let it continue function and eject empty cases if the extractor should break

[IMTHDUKE]

Some just don't have good taste in guns....they think a broomstick is a beauty.
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/trio.jpg

[Maia007]

Some appreciate it....some don't. It's a bit pricey, but not terribly so.

It IS different. It is classy. It is exceptionally accurate. It does take some getting used to. It is not a Glock. It is not a 1911. It is not for everyone.

I have one, a PSP. I will probably buy another. And perhaps another.

[Dobe]

Parts breakage seems to be a problem. I have one in the shop now with a broken sear bar. I also sent one back to HK for a dented gas cylinder. Things happen.

[L-Frame]

As said here they are very accurate, super reliable and very durable (except for the heating issue), but the reason I've never loved them is that grip is SO BIG relative to the gun that I could never conceal it well. And, other guns are much more ergonomic for me. It's definitely one of those guns where if you have the money and it feels good to you, you can't go wrong.

[Dobe]

Actually, this is one of the easiest to conceal 9mm's out there. Mainly, because it is so thin.

[Onmilo]

The H&K P7 series was one of the very last of the standard low capacity 9mm handgun designs produced for Military, Police, and civilian applications.

One of the last designs produced as an all steel handgun when aluminum and plastic was beginning to become the gold standard of handgun production materials and dimensioned in a size that both complimented the cartridge employed and allowed the gun to be used for multiple purposes such as sport, defense, target shooting, comfortable concealed or open carry and display.

The P7 series represents the pinnacle of old world firearms production techniques and deserves a place in any collection for that reason alone.

[Balrog]

Actually, this is one of the easiest to conceal 9mm's out there. Mainly, because it is so thin.

It is 1mm thinner than a Glock 19.

[9mmepiphany]

a real collection should have all three of the guns that took part in the trials following the 1968 Olympics in Munich

the P-5 (made by Walther) has been available in the past and is the most expensive of the group
the P-6 (police version off the Sig 225) is currently available as trade-ins
the P-7 (what we refer to as the PSP) is what we're talking about here

[meef]

Well, it is widely known that P7 owners are extremely cool, intelligent and suave.

Not to mention uncommonly handsome.


:cool:

[bac1023]

I love everything about the P7 series.


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/briancut1023/000_1926-1.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ollituc/000_1960.jpg

[L-Frame]

Thin isn't the issue for me. The way I carry, it's the butt of the gun sticking out that is the issue. And the P7M8 has a big ol' butt.

[Pilot]

The butt is no bigger than many others including some full size .380's like the Sig P230/232 or Beretta 84/85 series.

[Dobe]

It is 1mm thinner than a Glock 19The width of the grip is usually the hardest to hide. Are telling me a G-19's gip is approximately the same width as a P7?

[Balrog]

Are telling me a G-19's gip is approximately the same width as a P7?

Yep, not enough to make a difference. The grip of the P7 is also longer, which can make concealment even more of an issue than it is with the G19.

[Dobe]

So, how 'bout posting a picture of a double stack G-19, showing the butt.

[Balrog]

Dont have a photo of the butt of my G19 handy, and I sold my P7 a long time ago, so I dont still have a photo to compare anyway.

[Dobe]

It would be interesting to see photos of each from magazine end. I have three M8's, but no G-19.

[19-3Ben]

Well, it is widely known that P7 owners are extremely cool, intelligent and suave.

Not to mention uncommonly handsome.


That must be why I carry a Kahr.:o

[meef]

The squeeze cocking, rather than being an advantage, is a drawback, requiring that the shooter give it his attention at all times to make sure the gun is operational. Relax just a bit, lose focus a bit, and the gun will uncock and require a hard, long squeeze to get it back to shooting condition.

I DON'T want to have to think about keeping a death grip on my gun.There are also people who lack the ability to fart and chew gum at the same time.

I would not recommend a P7 to to them either.



:cool:

[Balrog]

There are also people who lack the ability to fart and chew gum at the same time.

I would not recommend a P7 to to them either.

I assume by your confidence, that you have used the P7 in a high stress self defense situation, and had no problem with its manual of arms? Are you just assuming you would have no problem with its manual of arms in such a situation?

[9mmepiphany]

I assume by your confidence, that you have used the P7 in a high stress self defense situation, and had no problem with its manual of arms? Are you just assuming you would have no problem with its manual of arms in such a situation

i carried mine as a duty gun, between periods with a Combat Commander and a 9mm Sig 226. it got me through qualifications (not too tough, even when you run them at speed), training classes and used it on the street while assigned to Patrol.

i never had it issue with cocking the striker on the pushout (about where i would have released the thumb safety on the 1911) nor holding it cocked when covering suspects for long periods (felony vehicle stop). much like the thumb safety on the 1911, i would leave it uncocked during building searches and had no problem cocking it when i came upon a suspect

the only gun with a heel mounted mag release that to comes close to the P-7's speed of reload is the Beretta 92

[meef]

I assume by your confidence, that you have used the P7 in a high stress self defense situation, and had no problem with its manual of arms? Are you just assuming you would have no problem with its manual of arms in such a situation? I have not, fortunately, used the P7 in a high stress self defense situation.

I have likewise not used any other semi-auto or revolver in such a case.

And I assume nothing.

I do my part with frequent practice and conditioning and pray that should the situation ever arise they will carry me through. What more can anyone do?

In a "high stress self defense situation", things can go wrong regardless of the self-defense platform utilized.

I will state with confidence, however, that I am not overawed, baffled or out of my league with the P7 manual of arms. No more so than any of the many other weapons systems I have had experience with over the years.

I personally like the P7 very much, for a number of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. Others will see it differently.

I do not perceive it's manual of arms as a liability, quite the contrary. I certainly do not consider it so complicated as to be hazardous (to me, that is) to have to use.

YMMV.

[Storm]

If I was prone to making assumptions I would have to assume that the German police that these guns served for many years found the squeeze cocker to be functional and viable in high stress situations.

[9mmepiphany]

to say nothing of the New Jersey State Police, for who the P-7 was modified to the M8. the M13 was for the 1911 replacement trials

[earlthegoat2]

Here is a write up I did on it explaining the many of my perceived pros and cons and my reactions to them.

http://earlthegoat2.blogspot.com/2009/08/exceptions-in-exceptional-pistol-hk-p7.html

Here is my followup on the heel magazine release as opposed to a side button magazine release.

http://earlthegoat2.blogspot.com/2010/03/heel-magazine-releases-compared-to.html

Here is the Cult of the P7 comparison page. It does a quick rundown of the pros and cons and quick analysis of each one.

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/pct_faq.htm#9

These three resources are an excellent primer on the HK P7 pistol and should answer the majority of your questions on why it has such a following. Just remember though, for every person who likes the P7 there are 2 or 3 others who either dont like it, are indifferent, or who have never heard of it.

[benderx4]

Until you've actually fired one of these incredible marvels of German engineering, you'll never be able to fully appreciate this unique gun. Find someone who owns one, and then spend some time on the range with it. I have no doubt you'll be wearing a wide grin after your very first magazine. The gun is just that good. But don't take my word for it, try one.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3705331320_27c8d9a703.jpg

[nwilliams]

I have always had a fondness for the P7. Ever since I saw Die Hard I always one, although that movie made me want a 92f, Aug and MP-5 as well:D

I think the P7 is an interesting and unique firearm and I guess that I'm in the minority when I say that I really don't find them ugly at all. They get hot above the trigger real fast after just a few mags but they are accurate, reliable and a whole lot of fun to shoot.

It took me many years to get around to finally buying one and now I can't imagine my collection without one!

Here's mine....
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/MKEandP7.jpg

[earlthegoat2]

At least for me, my like of the P7 does not mean I like anything else HK.

The P7 is in a league of its own that supercedes brand loyalty.

[SKILCZ]

Advantages:
1) Intuitive manual of arms: Squeeze to cock, release to decock.
2) Fixed barrel: Very accurate.
3) Gas-delayed blowback: Short, small, light slide with a low profile and little recoil.
4) Good ergonomics
5) Easy disassembly

Disadvantages:
1) Heavy: A similarly sized gun made with modern polymer technology could and would be lighter.
2) Large grip: Modern technology might be able to squeeze more rounds into the same sized grip. Mine carries and holsters just fine despite this.

Non-P7M8 Specific Disadvantages:
1) No heat shield
2) Small trigger guard
3) "European style" magazine release

[Shear_stress]

At least for me, my like of the P7 does not mean I like anything else HK.

Same here. The P7 harkens back to a time when that company was still innovating.

[PX15]

Ss:

Respectfully, I have a P2000sk (V3) that is as accurate as my P7's (yeah, surprised me too), is the more traditional tda platform, and offers a minimum of 2 more rounds over the fine P7, and using the P2000 mag (w/x grip) offers 5 more rounds capacity.

No "heat" buildup either, (altho for self defense I never considered that a problem in the P7).

I LOVE my two P7's, but generally prefer to cc my P2000sk for the reasons stated above.

I consider the HK P2000sk as an "innovative" design....

No offense, just personal opinion..

Jesse

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_1628.jpg

[Shear_stress]

I consider the HK P2000sk as an "innovative" design....

I don't doubt that the P2000 is a good pistol. But innovative? Not so much. It is a combination of literally the most common features of modern handguns:

1.) Browning-style, tilt-barrel, recoil-operated action
2.) Plastic frame
3.) Interchangeable back straps
4.) Double-stack magazine
5.) SA/DA trigger (with some extra credit given for the LEM version)

At best, the P2000 is a modest refinement of widespread ideas. The P7--though the concept of a squeezecocking device of some kind had already been invented--really brought something different to the table.

As for whether all that "difference" really makes a difference--that's another story.

[waterhouse]

Are telling me a G-19's gip is approximately the same width as a P7?

Camera is with my wife at work, and I don't have a 19 here, but I do have a 26 and a P7 and some calipers.

Widest point on the 26 grip NOT including the little flare for the "thumb rest" or whatever it is called (in other words, the widest part of the main body of the grip) seems to be about 1.189".

Widest drip on the P7 is about 1.132".

Multiplying the difference by 25.4 to get to millimeters puts us pretty dang close to Balrog's number, 1.45mm differnce in grip. Someone may need to check my math, I've been out of school for a while.

I don't know if the 26 and the 19 are exactly the same width.

ETA: I also have the thin grips on my P7. They have some with a palm swell that would make them as wide or wider than the 26.

I think the main advantage of a P7 comes from the low bore axis and (for me) fit. It fits my hand so well I don't need to use the sights. I actually took a new (to me) P7 to qualify yesterday. I had my regular carry (also a P7) gun in my bag for a backup. I got to the range 20 minutes before the qual, and I went to check out the new p7. Using the sights I was shooting a decent group at 15 yards but I was about 3" left. I didn't have a way to drift the sights out there so I just decided to look at the target instead of the sights and put the next few mags though the center of the target. I thought about switching to my carry gun for the qual so that I'd have sights I knew were aligned, but I just shot the new gun instead. I've tried looking at the target with other guns with terrible results.

People talk about forgetting to squeeze the gun in an adrenaline filled panic scenario. I don't worry about squeezing the gun, but I do worry I might forget all of my training and forget to focus on the front sight, instead focusing on the target. Of all of the reliable guns I've owned over the years, the one I trust to be on target when I'm wetting myself is the P7.

[PX15]

Ss:

You know, I believe you are absolutely correct.. Now that I think about it, the design of the P2000sk (or P2000) is not innovative in the sense that the HK P7 design is both "unique" and "innovative"..

So, let me apologize for my error, and just say while the P2000sk is not "innovative", it's, overall, a darn good pistol..

Best Wishes,

jesse

[Shear_stress]

Hi Jesse. No apology necessary.

while the P2000sk is not "innovative", it's, overall, a darn good pistol

While I've got no firsthand experience with the P2000 I have no reason to doubt yours. I think the P7 is a cool design, but there are more important criteria for a defensive handgun.

[usp9]

On the "innovation" topic;

* I thought the HKs were one of the first to bring out the changable backstraps. I can't think of one prior to the HK.

The decoker on the HK is unique to guns in the U.S. of A., again, I can't think of another gun here with that tiny, button, next to the hammer.

I count those two features as innovative changes that made the P2000sk a little different from the herd.

[Jim K]

I agree that more training would resolve the problems I had, but IMHO there is no earthly reason for anyone to design a pistol that requires the user to keep it cocked. Why not design a revolver that requires the cylinder be turned by hand (yes there were some) or an auto pistol that needs to have the manual safety held down when firing? The P7 design is almost like the "deadman's handle" on a subway train - let it up and the train stops. Probably a good idea on subways, but not on guns.

BTW, the P7, regardless of all the delay folderol is still a blowback, so it doesn't need an extractor except to remove an unfired or dud round.

Jim

[rm86]

Can someone explain to me why some say that the P7 is "over engineered?" Does this just have to do with the fact that it has a squeeze cocking system or is there more to it than that?

[Balrog]

Can someone explain to me why some say that the P7 is "over engineered?" Does this just have to do with the fact that it has a squeeze cocking system or is there more to it than that?

Take the grip panels off and look at it. Its kind of the exact opposite of the way the Glock engineers look at firearms.

[Dobe]

Overengineered generally implies heavy-duty. Complex may be a term well fitted. I believe the P7 is both. Yet, in many ways, it is very simple. The squeeze cocker, and the firing pin take down to mention just two.

[earlthegoat2]

Though I have heard of them breaking, it is rare and catostrophic when it occurs.

THere are no cheap replacement parts and since they dont build them anymore the availability will be only getting smaller.

[Dobe]

I have one in the shop now...sear bar
The drop safety spring is a common problem.

I still like 'em. Every design has its drawbacks.

[DirtyHarry31]

Another thing that no one has mentioned is the fact it works for both a right or left handed person the same way. You have no protruding levers on the side to snag or throw. To reload the slide sits open after the last round, load a full clip & squeeze the cocker and it's back in action. Besides everyone says the same thing, extremely accurate. A fixed barrel like a revolver. I shoot better with a revolver (ccw is S&W 360 M&P 357) than a semi but the P7 levels that playing field. The 110' angle grip is the same natural angle if you pointed your finger. Anyway what counts is not "spray & pray" alot of rounds but one shot hitting it's mark. Yes it's hard to "squeeze" the cocking devise (7.5-10 lbs.) but only 2-2.5 lbs. to maintain engagement of the mechanism. This also make this kinda "child proof" for it's unique to engage to fire and hard for a kid to squeeze to shoot it. If you loose it to an attacker he would be dumbfounded to figure how to use it giving you a chance to get it back from him or run. Yes I just got one and find this a facinating gun. IMO

[jhco]

Go buy one

[Balrog]

This also make this kinda "child proof" for it's unique to engage to fire and hard for a kid to squeeze to shoot it. If you loose it to an attacker he would be dumbfounded to figure how to use it giving you a chance to get it back from him or run.

The P7 is such an awesome gun it makes otherwise rational people jump to questionable conclusions.

"kinda childproof"?

dumbfounded criminals?

I would hope so, but I am gonna have to doubt it.

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Well, it is widely known that P7 owners are extremely cool, intelligent and suave.

Not to mention uncommonly handsome.

The P7 was made to fit in these:

http://www.bonobos.com/store/item/Capture_the_Flags

[Onmilo]

Hope this settles this oh so spirited discussion,
http://www.fototime.com/0165B24EDB7FF3C/standard.jpg
And yes, that is indeed a Glock 19 under the P7
http://www.fototime.com/4D60E0E78BFB279/standard.jpg
The Glock is a tad longer in the slide length, the H&K is thinner all around.
Top of slide to bottom of grip with magazine in place is near identical, we are talking a couple millimeters difference.

Some say Gaston the Austrian used a P7 as a guideline for setting the dimensions of the G19, now go argue that.

Oh, for those that can't master the simple grip squeeze of the P7 in a stress situation, the manufacturers came up with a pistol tailor made for the clumsy and fumble fingered, guaranteed, they say, to score a hit with the first round,,,,
http://www.fototime.com/8F3FF3C249F99EC/standard.jpg
HTH

[DirtyHarry31]

Balrog, childproof in respects to the width of the grip "un squeezed" plus the lbs it takes to cock most small kids won't be able to do it. I did not say "totally" childproof. If you have one try it & see (unloaded of course). It is difficult to operate for young kids. And if you own one, show some of your friends wives and see how difficult it is even for an adult. The trigger won't go off until fully squeezed, but don't tell them how to do it, just observe. Most people I show it to think the squeeze lever as a wide grip, never pulling on it even hard enough to engage. With no hammer to pull even partially back to fire a round, wide grip with no understanding on how it works, I feel there is some degree of childproofing to it. Bigger kids, well they should know better but the young ones won't get it or have alot of difficulty trying and hopefully give up or a responsible adult catches them before something does.

[briang2ad]

I don't own one, and don't plan to, but it is just plain COOL - that is why.

[Greg72]

Fer me, it's kind of like deciding whether to marry a woman. I find the p7 attractive to look at, a bit exotic even. Most importantly, can I accept it, just as it is right now with all of it's assets and shortcomings? I can, and own 2 p7s. Putting logic aside, I just love the gun. I fell hard for it after firing a friend's.

[IMTHDUKE]

Fer me, it's kind of like deciding whether to marry a woman. I find the p7 attractive to look at, a bit exotic even. Most importantly, can I accept it, just as it is right now with all of it's assets and shortcomings? I can, and own 2 p7s. Putting logic aside, I just love the gun. I fell hard for it after firing a friend's.

You nailed it mate....exactly

[valorius]

Can i answer with pictures?

FACTORY BONE STOCK accuracy of a typical used P7 police trade in, using full power CorBon 115gr+P ammo... i shot this group the day i got my pistol, at 10yds:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/1holepsprt1.jpg

This is a pic of my P7 now. It is the only rail equipped P7 on earth (that i am aware of):

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/bdec7909.jpg

I also had a custom rear sight mount made so that i can mount a Burris Fastfire II HUD on it, when the mood strikes me:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/HKP7Geco1.jpg

The P7 is, IMO, the safest, fastest, most accurate 9mm service pistol ever devised, bar none. That's why i carry one. The pistol has no (real world) downside.

And god dang are they pretty (my P7 before i had the rail installed):

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/P7andCSKatana3.jpg

[TG13]

i want one with the plum slide..

[valorius]

In almost 3 decades of service in the hands of DOZENS of police agencies world wide, no police officer has -ever- been shot with his own P7 after being disarmed.

Source: Massad Ayoob.

Hand a P7 to even an experienced shooter that's not familiar with the design, and they will fumble with it at length trying to get it to go "Click"(or bang). When you know how it works it is completely instinctive and very easy to engage the squeezecocker. Should the pistol for any reason leave your grip, it is rendered instantly and completely inert.

That's what the squeezecocker fuss is all about.

To me the P7 is the anti-glock- ie, it's loaded with safety features, it is all steel, and it is a very expensive pistol. So it's no surprise whatsoever that a glock fanboy might not be fond of the design. I feel the same way about glocks that glock fanboys feel about P7s, i assure you. I'd rather carry a box of rocks than a glock, and would choose virtually ANY quality modern firearm over a glock of any model.

Another pic of my P7 (pre-rail) with the Fastfire II mounted:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/HKP7FastfireIINillbright.jpg

[iblong]

Ive only shot one a P7M8 and I will own one some day!
But the are getting right up there in price with a good 1911.

[Bentonville]

I put off owning a P7 for years because of an unbased fear of the squeeze-cocking feature and the heat in the trigger area. That was a waste. I could have been enjoying unprecedented accuracy (for me) all those years. I have not found the heat factor to be a problem. That's probably because when I go to the range, I don't shoot fast and furiously, mag. after mag., like I am in a shoot-out at the OK corral.

Valorius, It's good to see you over here on THR. This forum has a high level of courtesy similar to HKPro. in my opinion. A lot of guys here have a lot of knowledge about any kind of firearm. It's not necessarily for HK fanatics but it's a great place.

[Pilot]

Very nice police trade in HK P7's can be had currently for $500. That is a screaming deal.

[Storm]

TG13, I have one with the plumb slide. It's a great look. I've seen some with even more of a plumb hue. It seems to be present in varying degrees.

The only frustrating thing is that towards the muzzle on the left side of the slide there is a small mark shaped like a playing card spade. It actually looks like a proof mark and at first I thought that it was. No amount of attempts at touching it up have worked no matter how I prepped it or which blue I used. So, I have come to accept it as part of the history of the gun.

Also, I agree with the opinions that the heating is for the very most part a non-issue. Six or seven mags fired at a normal pace at the range (plus time to reload one as I only have five) will cause heating, but not to the point of too much discomfort to shoot the gun. In terms of SD, it is a complete non-issue unless you're tasked with shooting zombies. I would call the heating "harmless error".

[Balrog]

Very nice police trade in HK P7's can be had currently for $500. That is a screaming deal.

That is a real good deal. Who has them for that price?

[Bentonville]

Balrog.
Check post #29 on this thread.

[valorius]

You can get grade A's for about $750 from Top Gun supply. Grade B's usually go for about $600 from what i've seen. A grade C (good mechanicals with a worn finish, typically holster wear) can typically be had for between $500-550.

When i had my P7M8, i had 6 mags with it. When i first got it, i loaded all six mags with hot corbon +P ammo and rapid fired them as fast as i could, to test the heating issue.
The pistol was certainly hot above the triggerguard, but had i more magazines, and were i in a gunfight, there is no way the heat would have dissuaded me from lots more firing. I think that you would have to rapid fire about a dozen mags to get it truly too hot to fire. Who even owns 12 P7 mags? Anyone who did would also arrange to have a glove, i'm sure...

I only own 3 for my "PSP" currently, so the heat is a total non-issue for me. So much so that i sold the M8 with the heat shield for a tidy $1200 dollars and a couple hundred dollar profit and kept my PSP. :)

It is also perfectly possible to fit an M8 style heat shield to a P7, it's been done and the part is about $15. If i was actually concerned about it i would probably take it to my smith and have him custom make a truly effective heatshield, but again, to me, it's a non-issue.

[Pilot]

Top Gun Supply has them for $499 currently.

[waterhouse]

This is a pic of my P7 now. It is the only rail equipped P7 on earth (that i am aware of):

Cool. First one that I've seen. Who did the work? I doubt I'd ever add a rail to mine, but it sure is unique.

[9mmepiphany]

you can also checker the rear strap and add a beavertail
http://grayguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/p7m8-refinish-backstrap.jpg

or lengthen the slide and add a compensator
http://grayguns.com/wp-content/gallery/general-images/ggi-1987-m13-longslide.jpg

[valorius]

Thanks Waterhouse. One of the top local smiths did the work for me. If you'd like the contact info, shoot me a pm. :)

There are some pretty wild P7 racegun configs out there.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/P7M13target.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/P7M13LangLaufGross.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/25rdp7m13race.jpg
This last one is an M13 with a 23rd extended mag. Me likey. ;)

And gawd, they sure are purdy...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/f6f458ee.jpg

[9mmepiphany]

This last one is an M13 with a 23rd extended mag. Me likey.

are those Bruce's thumbs in that pic?

he used to shoot his long slide M13 in USPSA competition, against the comped 1911s, for H&K before he switched to Production with Sig Sauer

[valorius]

I think they are Bruce's thumbs. :)

[9mmepiphany]

I think they are Bruce's thumbs.
i recognized the "shop sweater" :D

[valorius]

You have any more shots of the beavertail P7? I've never seen that one before.

[9mmepiphany]

here's a couple more...they are from www.GrayGuns.com

http://grayguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/p7m8-refinish-side.jpg
http://grayguns.com/wp-content/gallery/general-images/ggi-m8-checkered.jpg

[Peter M. Eick]

Why?

Because you can do this with one when shooting reasonably fast and yes it does get hot.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/psp_15yrds.jpg

50 shots, 15 yrds, offhand with my carry gun and my carry ammo.

Getting a PSP is about quality and reliablity. It is a very safe accurate gun.

[918v]

I'm just curious, I've been reading a lot about H&K pistols and it seems that everybody raves about the P7. I'd love to hear some opinions from you THR guys who have had experience with it. It's my understanding that they are no longer made, only on occasional limited production runs. Is this correct?
I bought one a few years ago, buying into all the fabulous accuracy claims: fixed barrel, light trigger, etc. I tried a bunch of factory ammo, developed a bunch of handloads, and the best the gun would do is 2" at 50 feet from a rest. Disappointed, I sold it for what I paid, because there is always a sucker waiting to buy a P7.

[IMTHDUKE]

Well, hey....some people just can't shoot.

[valorius]

I bought one a few years ago, buying into all the fabulous accuracy claims: fixed barrel, light trigger, etc. I tried a bunch of factory ammo, developed a bunch of handloads, and the best the gun would do is 2" at 50 feet from a rest. Disappointed, I sold it for what I paid, because there is always a sucker waiting to buy a P7.
Maybe you had a bad example....mine shoots like this:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/1holepsprt1.jpg
10yds, Corbon 115gr+P Sierra JHP

About six different people i'm friends with have bought a P7 after shooting mine just a single time.

[gym]

I think although they have dropped in price the last few years, they have the coolness factor. They have to be one of the most unique well made guns of our time, even though they are by todays standard, a bit heavy and expensive in the "13 round version", I would love to get my hands on a 13 shot variety without needing a second mortgage. Great gun, simply put a classic. I put it up there with a series 70 Colt.

[valorius]

The M13 is a very fat gun, which destroyed my dream of owning one when i first held one, some 15 or so years ago.

The M8 and 'PSP' models fit my hand like a glove though. I've owned both, and for a variety of reasons, i prefer the 'PSP' flush heel mag release models by a pretty wide margin.

Another pic of mine:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/2c7ee7ea.jpg

And a really nice M8 with Nill grips:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/528925770_bc080c2dc3.jpg
Note: The M series pistols are just as large as the PSP pictured above, the triggerguard on the M's is just THAT big.

[oneounceload]

Took the wife shooting today - after sporting clays we shot a few handguns, one being the P7 - it is HER favorite, she finds it easy to control and shoot accurately, and if I'm not careful, she might confiscate it for her own (even though she gave it to me as gift)....:D

[IMTHDUKE]

Stop with those pics already....droolin on my key board.

[gym]

Yes congrats on those beautys.

[Frank Ettin]

I've found it a very handy gun. It's compact and easy to carry and conceal (when I legally can). Its manual of arms, while unique, is easily mastered with a little work.

I've taken a couple of classes (including LFI-1 in October of 2008) with my P7M8 and have been pleased with its performance.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/fiddletown_2006/P7M8/IMG_4560E2.jpg

[918v]

Maybe you had a bad example....mine shoots like this:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/1holepsprt1.jpg
10yds, Corbon 115gr+P Sierra JHP

About six different people i'm friends with have bought a P7 after shooting mine just a single time.
I'm talking about multiple five-shot groups, not a lucky cluster.

Every single published article I have read shows this to be a 2"+ @ 25 yards gun.

[Frank Ettin]

Every single published article I have read shows this to be a 2"+ @ 25 yards gun. What's wrong with a 2 inch at 25 yards service pistol? That's pretty decent for an out-of-the-box service pistol.

[918v]

Not if you're paying $1500.

The lore of the P7 is that the fixed barrel is supposed to give you tack driving accuracy. Fot $1500 you can buy three Glocks with the same accuracy potential.

[valorius]

The accuracy pictures posted are not "lucky clusters," they are just examples of typical P7 accuracy in the hands of a good shooter.

If you cannot shoot that way with a P7, well... ;)

And a P7 PSP can be had for $500, right now, all day, every day.

[918v]

They are not typical. I was shooting off a benchrest. Here is typical P7 accuracy:

http://www.gunfaqs.org/p7faq/Magazine_Articles/Hk%20P7%20Article%20by%20Boyle%20Page%207.jpg

[Bentonville]

918v, barrel must have been bent somehow. Sorry you didn't have a great experience. I shoot better with mine than I have a right to.

[918v]

Yeah, OK... bent barrel.

That's why they average 2.5" at 25 yards.

[918v]

Here's another 2.5" observation by none other than the self-proclaimed god of self-defense:

http://www.gunfaqs.org/p7faq/Magazine_Articles/Hk%20P7%20Article%20by%20Ayoob%20p.%2037.jpg

[918v]

And here are some 8-yard groups. Much bigger than than what valorius claims:

http://www.gunfaqs.org/p7faq/Magazine_Articles/P88vsP7M13_6.jpg

[valorius]

You sound bitter 918v. Where did any of us that posted pix state we were shooting at 25 yds? Eh, perhaps gun writers should call me to group their P7's for them. ;)

Mine shoots ragged one hole groups at 10 yards all day long.

I've never shot a Glock that does that.

If you read the Massad Ayoob article, btw, it is glowing in it's praise of the P7. He has spoken of it very favorably in many articles over the years.

[Peter M. Eick]

I would say that my average 50 shot group would be 2.5" at 25 yrds. I guess I won't complain at that. I know it is the limit of the shooter not the gun.

Now if you want a challange, take it back to 50 yrds and try to equal the Baer 1.5" guarantee.

To me for my carry gun, 2.5" at 25 yrds is good enough. Just my opinion though as a multiple PSP owner.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/3p7s.jpg

[gym]

How did such a great conversation about beautiful guns go sideways in a few hours over 1 person not shooting a half an inch closer than he felt obligated to shoot? is it me? here we are looking at some of the nicest p7's around and "918v", "you get upset" at the fact that the particular gun that you fired did not shoot as well as someone else's gun. "notice I didn't say shooter", "no personal attacks". That's like me saying my Vette is slower than my buddies therfore all Vetes are over rated and not worth what you paid for them. Come on now.

[918v]

You internet psychologists should stop psychoanalyzing me.

I'm not upset.

I'm not bitter.

I just don't believe your accuracy claims. Waving a three shot group around and proclaiming that your gun will do that all day long is just, well, unbelievable in light of my experience and the multiple published articles I furnished.

It appears the P7 Kool-Aid is stronger than Glock's.

[Frank Ettin]

You internet psychologists should stop psychoanalyzing me.

I'm not upset.

I'm not bitter....Well, whatever.

In any case, a lot of folks who have had a good deal of experience with the P7, in one of its several variants, have been pleased by the way it handles and performs; and they like it.

Apparently you don't. So what?

[meef]

It appears the P7 Kool-Aid is stronger than Glock's.It appears that you have your knickers in a twist about P7s.

Get over it.

Your life will be much happier.


:cool:

[918v]

OK, internet psychologist.

[meef]

:rolleyes:

Oh darn.

Now my feelings are really hurt.

Got me good with that one.




Nighty-night.

[918v]

Well, whatever.

In any case, a lot of folks who have had a good deal of experience with the P7, in one of its several variants, have been pleased by the way it handles and performs; and they like it.

Apparently you don't. So what?
So what?

The P7 is not as accurate as some people here claim. That's what.

[9mmepiphany]

The P7 is not as accurate as some people here claim. That's what.

but why is it important to you that other people agree with you?

...especially when you consider that accuracy at that level is more about the shooter than the gun

[Frank Ettin]

So what?

The P7 is not as accurate as some people here claim. That's what. Individual examples of any gun will display variations in accuracy. Accuracy tests are often affected by the ammunition used, and even different lots of the same ammunition can yield different results with the same gun. Accuracy test results are very dependent on the tester and his technique, as well as test condition. There are so many variables that can affect how a gun seems to shoot from one day to the next: how you feel; how well rested you are; how much coffee you had to drink; variations in temperature (which can affect ammunition); variations in lighting; variations in ammunition, etc.

If one is really serious about reaching some kind of meaningful conclusion about the inherent mechanical accuracy of a given make and model of pistol, one must follow proper, rigorous testing procedures, like: randomly selecting several examples of the same make/model pistol; using ammunition from the same lot and shooting multiple (at least five, but preferably 10) five or 10 shot groups using a machine rest, then measuring the groups, determining average group size and standard deviation for each set of groups.

Without rigorous testing what may appear to be better results may just be a random result within the statistically expected range of variation.

Nonetheless, any number of satisfied P7 users have found both that they can shoot the gun accurately enough to satisfy themselves and also appreciate the pistol's compactness and handling qualities.

[sigsteve]

I donno, my wife shot herself in the big toe with mine and it's still around... She still does't want to get rid of it! She loves the thing!

[918v]

but why is it important to you that other people agree with you?

...especially when you consider that accuracy at that level is more about the shooter than the gun

Because I'm defective that way.

I read BS and just can't stop myself from disputing it.

Why are you asking about my intentions in a technical discussion?

[918v]

Individual examples of any gun will display variations in accuracy. Accuracy tests are often affected by the ammunition used, and even different lots of the same ammunition can yield different results with the same gun. Accuracy test results are very dependent on the tester and his technique, as well as test condition. There are so many variables that can affect how a gun seems to shoot from one day to the next: how you feel; how well rested you are; how much coffee you had to drink; variations in temperature (which can affect ammunition); variations in lighting; variations in ammunition, etc.


I agree.

However, there is a limit to the variance given HK's strict quality control, the quality of the ammo used, and the stability of the platform from which the gun is fired.

I dispute the claim that every P7 is a quarter inch gun at 10 yards or that it will shoot that quarter inch group all day. That's all.

[wojownik]

Is this thread is becoming rather un-high road...?

The P7 is a unique pistol, and oddity even, and perhaps not everyones cup of tea. However, I have found it to be a consistently accurate pistol for me (after just over 400 rounds admittedly), and has moved from being a range toy to a principal SD handgun (my usually carry piece is a Sig p229, and I find myself carrying the P7 more and more this summer).

A few months ago, I let a buddy try my P7 on the range (he carries a Sig 228 daily on duty, and carries his own Sig off duty). He thought the P7 was too weird for his tastes, and was uncomfortable with the feel of the pistol.

I find my P7 to be as accurate as my p228 or p229 at 21 yards. The Sigs seem to be a bit more accurate at longer distances, but that's just me. For me, target acquisition is somewhat faster with the P7.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Frank Ettin]

...I dispute the claim that every P7 is a quarter inch gun at 10 yards or that it will shoot that quarter inch group all day. That's all. Dispute it all you want. I'm not inclined to give your opinion any more weight that a claim that every P7 is a quarter-inch at 10 yards gun. I have my personal experience with the P7M8 and have found it, both in practice and a number of classes I've taken with it, to be a fine performer.

[9mmepiphany]

Why are you asking about my intentions in a technical discussion?

because it isn't.

the discussion asks why the P7 has such a strong following...ie:why you like it?

[918v]

It is too a techmical discussion. The reasons why people like the gun are technical in nature, i.e. accuracy, ergonomics, trigger pull, outer dimensions, etc.

When you start questioning the intentions behind my posts instead of the accuracy of my statements, you turn this thread into something akin to marriage counseling.

[Frank Ettin]

It is too a techmical discussion. The reasons why people like the gun are technical in nature, i.e. accuracy, ergonomics, trigger pull, outer dimensions, etc....Not really. What folks who like the P7 like is the combination of those attributes in use. They find they can shoot it accurately, they like its ergonomics, etc. Finding those attributes in combination to be desirable is largely a subjective matter.

Certainly ergonomics is a subjective issue, as is trigger pull. Of course both can be measured, but deciding one likes them in a particular iteration is subjective.

In any case, you made your intention, and perspective on those of us who like the P7 clear in your post 111 ...there is always a sucker waiting to buy a P7.

[Billy Shears]

Not really. What folks who like the P7 like is the combination of those attributes in use. They find they can shoot it accurately, they like its ergonomics, etc. Finding those attributes in combination to be desirable is largely a subjective matter.

Certainly ergonomics is a subjective issue, as is trigger pull. Of course both can be measured, but deciding one likes them in a particular iteration is subjective.
This is very true. My dad has a P7M8 which I expect I'll inherit some day. I've fired it quite a bit. I love the trigger, and the accuracy of the gun, but I have to say that I've never found the grip terribly comfortable in the hand, nor do I care for the balance. It's a little heavy in the butt and light in muzzle for my taste, and doesn't point as naturally as it ought to.

[valorius]

Because I'm defective that way.

I read BS and just can't stop myself from disputing it.

Why are you asking about my intentions in a technical discussion?
A technical discussion? Is that what you call what you're doing?

Any P7 should shoot a 1 hole group at 10yds with a good shooter and with the brand of ammo that it likes best (which will vary by gun- mine LOVES corbon 115gr+P Sierra ammo, which is what the group i posted was shot with. I can in fact shoot such groups at 10yds with that ammo "all day.")

When i bought my P7 there were 4 in the case, and i had an M8 i'd just bought the week before. I shot all 5 guns head to head at my brothers range and kept the most accurate one.

I sold the M8 for $1200, less than a week after i'd just bought it for $1000. My P7 cost me $500. So i own my pistol for $300..... :)

edit: Well, i did. I've made some serious mods to it now. $$$$$

[9mmepiphany]

Originally Posted by 918v
It is too a techmical discussion. The reasons why people like the gun are technical in nature, i.e. accuracy, ergonomics, trigger pull, outer dimensions, etc....

well, that is an interesting phrase and says much about your lines of assertion

[meef]

My Granpappy, so many years ago, once let me in on the fact that:

"Well boy, some people are just born with a stick up their butt."



But maybe even just relating such a concept here might make me an internet psychologist.


Oh well.



I do so enjoy my P7. It really is a great firearm.


:D

[IMTHDUKE]

Well, the point of the post has been made.

Post a simple question about a P7 and it goes for 7+ pages.....why the following? Lots of folks appreciate, uniqueness, and boldness of a well made fire arm. Just my humble and accurate opinion:D If you don't like em, then others who do will survive:neener:

[918v]

well, that is an interesting phrase and says much about your lines of assertion
Once again you offer form over substance.

[orionengnr]

Because it is a great pistol.

In the last 20 years, I have owned three or four PSPs, an M13 and two M10s. None currently, but that is always subject to change. :)

Now please get the discussion back on track, unless getting the thread locked is your true motivation...BTW, how many posts can you make in one thread? :rolleyes:

[wojownik]

All this talk convinced me to take the P7 out to the range again this afternoon, and got around to some overdue cleaning this evening. Nothing to change my evaluation that the pistol is one of the most accurate that I own. Plus, its very concealable, and the squeeze cock makes for a great positive safety feature. Some have noted that the P7 could be a tad heavy due to the steel frame, but the weight is a plus in terms of reducing recoil. Disassembly was a pleasure, especially compared to the 1911 I cleaned tonight as well.

The main downsides I still see:
- magazines cost too much (but don't they all these days)
- yeah, the P7 PSP can get kinda warm after 50 rounds or so.
- can be mistaken for a staple gun (especially if you hard chrome it). Of course that adds to the handyman tool belt concealability.
- they can be addictive. And unlike, say Makarovs, they are an expensive addiction.

[918v]

Because it is a great pistol.

In the last 20 years, I have owned three or four PSPs, an M13 and two M10s. None currently, but that is always subject to change. :)

Now please get the discussion back on track, unless getting the thread locked is your true motivation...BTW, how many posts can you make in one thread? :rolleyes:
I guess your motivation is to continue to question mine.

Maybe you're the one who got the thread off track by introducing stuff like motivation into a discussion about accuracy.

Have you ever tested a P7 for accuracy?

[LUPUS]

One of the last designs produced as an all steel handgun when aluminum and plastic was beginning to become the gold standard of handgun production materials and dimensioned in a size that both complimented the cartridge employed and allowed the gun to be used for multiple purposes such as sport, defense, target shooting, comfortable concealed or open carry and display.

The P7 series represents the pinnacle of old world firearms production techniques and deserves a place in any collection for that reason alone. The sum of the ''Cult''...

[valorius]

I do agree with that. The P7 can rightly be called the pinnacle of all metal autopistol design. It is certainly the pinnacle of any blowback design.

And absolutely gorgeous with just the addition of a set of nice Nill grips...

[tinygnat219]

I think I can contribute something here on the P7 series of guns and why people like them.

They're different, they shoot nice, and they are freaky accurate with that Single Action Trigger and fixed barrel. It's nice to see a gun that's achieved a level of success without Browning's P35 style of lockup. It represents a different manual of arms out there that's almost as simple as a revolver. With a revolver, you point and pull the trigger. With the P7, you point, squeeze the grip, and pull the trigger.

For those that don't like it, don't buy them. That makes life simple for the ones that do like it.

[Revolver Ocelot]

the design allows for it to have excellent reliability in feeding and extraction, very low recoil to the type of gas operation it uses, a smaller slide decreases the amount of mass moving backwards in recoil equaling exceptionally low recoil, the angle the slide sits at in relation to the grip as well as low barrel axis gives it excellent point of aim, the fixed barrel increases the accuracy and lastly the type of safety it uses it allows it to sit in a safe configuration until it is deployed when it has a single action mode of fire with a trigger pull of less than 2 pounds. All in all it is an exceptional firearm, the only down sides for some is the squeeze cocker which isn't everyones cup of tea, its weight (which I consider to be a good thing) and the price tag that goes with it.

[Dobe]

Low muzzle whip
Slim design
4" barrel for a compact pistol
Extreme reliability
Easy access to firing pin
Good tigger
The P7 balances very well in the hand

For those that doubt how a butt heavy handgun can balance so well, take your index finger and thumb, grasp the slide at different locations until you find the balance point. It will be just behind the trigger guard.
This is where the strong hand fingers will be, once the cocker is depressed.

The P7 was well thought out.

[918v]

In my experience, the P7 has sharper recoil and greater muzzle flip than a comparable weight semi-auto using a different design. It has less mass at the muzzle, so there is more flip. The gas piston nearly freezes the rearward movement of the slide at the instant of firing, so the slide does not have the same ability to absorb recoil as a conventional tilt barrel design where the barrel and slide both move to the rear as the bullet moves forward.

The overall recoil may be the same, but the P7 is more snappy.

[Dobe]

The gas piston nearly freezes the rearward movement of the slide at the instant of firing, so the slide does not have the same ability to absorb recoil as a conventional tilt barrel design where the barrel and slide both move to the rear as the bullet moves forward.
The slide on a conventional semi auto does not move backwards until the bullet has left the barrel.

http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf
http://www.sniperworld.com/content.aspx?ckey=sniper_world_glock_index

[wojownik]

My Sig P6 has greater muzzle flip and perceived recoil than my P7, and the P6 is a larger pistol with considerably more mass at the muzzle. The perceived recoil on the P7 is however different than any other gun I have - I can't really explain it, it just feels different. I'm definitely not a P7 or HK cult member, per se. I just enjoy odd firearms. I'm more a Sig fan these days than anything else, but the P7 is striking in terms of the different design philosophy. I just admire when any designer can think outside of the box, and still come out with a decent product. I'm not sure how one can say the P7 is the pinnacle of old world firearms production techniques, though. I'd reserve that spot for the classic Sig P210. At least the P7 is representative of good craftmanship/production and innovative design.

[GLOOB]

I don't have a horse in this race, but it just pains me to see faulty arguments.

The slide on a conventional semi auto does not move backwards until the bullet has left the barrel.
Methinks you are wrong about this.

the balance point. It will be just behind the trigger guard.
Methinks you decided this was the perfect point of balance just about the same time you finished finding it on your pistol. This point seems kind of arbitrary, and a tad further back than I'd imagine an ideal balance point. Besides, don't your "strong fingers" end up just ahead of the rear of the trigger guard?

Edit: ok, just studied a pic of a P7, and I see your logic on this point, afterall. In fact, I am impressed with how high you can get your grip on the P7 with the huge relief on the rear of the trigger guard.

[Dobe]

Methinks you are wrong about this.You are wrong


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltyEyNfdp8I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhGgYq3XOE&feature=related

[GLOOB]

So tell us, Dobe. In a Browning tilting barrel mechanism, what would stop the slide from starting its rearward motion until after the bullet has left the barrel. Do fairies tell it to wait?

Hint: the whole point of the tilting barrel is that instead of trying to make the slide NOT move (using gas or rollerblock or whatnot), the barrel can ALSO move backward WITH the slide for a little ways. So the breech doesn't open until after the bullet has hopefully left the barrel. But the slide (and the barrel) sure as heck move backwards the instant the bullet starts down the barrel.

[Dobe]

The force of the bullet traveling down the barrel.

Watch this, and you will see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltyEyNfdp8I&feature=related

[GLOOB]

Dude. You don't get it. The slide was moving backwards in that video. But the barrel was moving with it. That's the whole point of the Browning mechanism. In fact, right at the beginning of the vid, way before the bullet has left the muzzle, you can see the barrel bushing and muzzle move a little. That's probably from the barrel angle changing as it rotates, getting ready to unlock.

The force of the bullet traveling down the barrel. would do wonders for keeping the barrel from moving backward, if it weren't locked to the slide. But because slide and barrel are one unit, the bullet is going one way. The slide and barrel must go the other way because of a phenomenon named after some guy named Newton.

[Dobe]

The lenght of an ejection chamber is less than the lenght of a barrel, right? How do you suppose you do not get burned by hot gasses when you pull the trigger? The barrel is actually being pulled forward. When the pressure drops, the momentum of the case becomes stronger than the remaining forward momentum (the pressure drops). At that point, the slide moves rearward.

[Dobe]

Dude. You don't get it. The slide was moving backwards in that video. But the barrel was moving with it. That's the whole point of the Browning mechanism.

You are mistaken.

While the below is merely an animation, it does depict how it works.
http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf

would do wonders for keeping the barrel from moving backward, if it weren't locked to the slide. But because slide and barrel are one unit, the bullet is going one way. The slide and barrel must go the other way because of a phenomenon named after some guy named Newton. This is easier to understand looking at the locking lug of a SIG, Glock, or HK. The barrel and slide only lock one way, when the barrel is pull forward. Don't believe it? What happens when the barrel is pushed backwards? It unlocks. Under your theory, there is no reason to even have a locking lug.

[GLOOB]

You are mistaken.

While the below is merely an animation, it does depict how it works.
http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf
That animation is hilarious because of how wrong it is. I'm sorry you learn your physics from a cartoon. Whenever someone plays this cartoon, I'm sure JMB turns in his grave.

This is easier to understand looking at the locking lug of a SIG, Glock, or HK. The barrel and slide only lock one way, when the barrel is pull forward. Don't believe it? What happens when the barrel is pushed backwards? It unlocks. Irrelevant. I know how and why the locking lugs do what they do. I can only guess what it is that you think they do, based on your demonstrated knowledge of physics.

Maybe YOU can look at the barrel hood/slide interface of your GLOCK, and you'll understand that the slide and barrel are locked, period, for the first fraction of an inch of travel.

[Dobe]

I'm holding an HKP30 in my hand now. If I push the barrel backwards, as though to simulate recoil as you claim, 1/8" the barrel and lug unlock. How could the system work safely with the pressure still high(bullet still in barrel and gases igniting)?

[GLOOB]

double

[GLOOB]

The bullet weighs about a quarter ounce. The slide/barrel weighs about 20oz. By the time the barrel/slide has moved 1/8", the bullet has cleared the barrel, already.

Basically, the bullet moves a heck of a lot faster than the slide/barrel. And a good thing too, else the shooter would be in for a world of hurt.

Regardless if you believe me or not, I'm sorry for being a condescending dolt. I lose my patience too quickly sometimes.

[valorius]

I believe Dobe is correct. The slide does not move rearward until after the bullet has left the barrel.

[Dobe]

I appreciate the apology. There is nothing wrong with discussing topics, and presenting points of view. Therefore, I'll add one and only one other discussion point.

Going back to the HKP30, as this is what I have in my hand, and its locking lug is clearly visible. The lug only locks with opposing pressure. If the slide were able to travel rearward with the bullet still in the bore, the barrel would begin its tilt immediately. I believe what you are suggesting is that there is enough lag to reduce the pressure. But with rearward pressure only, there is no need for lugs. There has to be a forward pressure in order to lock the rearward moving slide. Therefore, there is forward pressure on the barrel. This keeps the barrel aligned and will not allow it to tilt until the bullet leaves the bore. Then the rearward momentum of the slide unlocks and tilts the barrel.

[GLOOB]

I have to admit that I have a hard time following your line of thinking. I just can't get "into your head." So if we're at an impasses, then so be it. But I'll try one last time to explain my own view. Please do not think I'm ignoring your comments if I do not directly address one or more of your arguments. It's just that I do not understand everything as you seem to see it. So...

When the cartridge initially goes off, it's like a bomb that wants to blow the barrel and slide apart. Barrel is pushed forward, and slide is pushed backwards. BUT, the locking lug(s) keep them locked together. Because the bullet is free to travel down the bore, the equal and opposite reaction is rearward. So the slide ends up pulling the barrel back with it.

If the slide were able to travel rearward with the bullet still in the bore, the barrel would begin its tilt immediately.
Yes, you are right. I agree, completely. The barrel begins to tilt immediately, for all intents and purposes.

I believe what you are suggesting is that there is enough lag to reduce the pressure. I suggest no lag. I suggest that the barrel and slide move, immediately, in the direction opposite the bullet. I suggest that the barrel is tilting a little bit even before the bullet leaves the barrel. But I humbly submit that the bullet makes it out of the barrel before the slide/barrel have moved back so much as 1/8" to where the slide/barrel unlock from each other. It's this magical 1/8" where barrel travels with slide that separates the locked breech Browning mechanism from a straight blowback. Then, even after the bullet is gone and pressures are dropping, inertia keeps the slide/barrel moving back. But another lug blocks the barrel from continuing back. So the slide goes it alone, for the rest of the trip. (As a side note, this is the reason a locked breech gun needs to have a much stronger extractor than a blowback pistol. Once the barrel hits the stop lug, the extractor has to rip the cartridge out of the chamber with little help from gas pressure.)

Furthermore, I submit that the bit of barrel tilt by the time the shot leaves the muzzle is small and consistent enough where it doesn't significantly affect your aim, shot to shot. Although when changing between different loads, esp of varying weight bullet, the vertical POI may, indeed, noticeably change (due to the change in dwell time/speed and its subsequent effect on barrel tilt and recoil, among other factors aside from the ballistic trajectory).

[Dobe]

When the cartridge initially goes off, it's like a bomb that wants to blow the barrel and slide apart. Barrel is pushed forward, and slide is pushed backwards. BUT, the locking lug(s) keep them locked together. Because the bullet is free to travel down the bore, the equal and opposite reaction is rearward. So the slide ends up pulling the barrel back with it.That's were we depart (Bold Letters). There can not be equal and oposite reaction in one direction. If the pressure is equal (locked lugs) then the pressure is still high on the barrel side, i.e. until the bullet exits the bore. For a barrel to tilt before the pressure has dropped would suggest an unsafe system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhGgYq3XOE&feature=related
The above link really demonstrates this well. You will see rearward movement, but it is recoil. In other words, the slide and barrel are moving as one locked unit. If you look carefull, just before the video ends, you will see where the slide begins to move rearward after the bullet leaves the barrel.

[GLOOB]

That's were we depart (Bold Letters). There can not be equal and oposite reaction in one direction. system
One direction? Bullet goes one way, slide goes the other. That's 2 directions, equal and opposite. But since the bullet is so much smaller, it end up going much farther in the same period of time. Far enough to exit the barrel before the slide and barrel have collectively moved back far enough to unlock. This seems so simple to me, I don't see what I'm missing, here.

For a barrel to finish tilting before the pressure has dropped would suggest an unsafe system.

FTFY

[GLOOB]

Ok, one more try.

Imagine a cannon. It's just a tube with sealed breech. It fires a cannonball.

Cannonball goes one way. Cannon goes the other. Agree?

Ok, now imagine that you take a hacksaw and cut the barrel off the cannon. Now you reattach the 2 parts with superglue. Or, ohh, say, locking lugs.

Now you fire the cannon, and what happens? The same damn thing. The cannonball goes one way, and the cannon goes the other. The cannon doesn't magically stay put until the cannonball has left the barrel, then suddenly start moving for no reason.

[usp9]

* Physics is physics. The instant the bullet moves, so does the slide.

* A browning linkage keeps the slide and barrel together, yet moving, just long enough for the bullet to exit, the pressure drop and then unlocks by tilting. This all occures in the fraction of an inch the slide moves while the bullet exits the barrel.

If the slide were able to travel rearward with the bullet still in the bore, the barrel would begin its tilt immediately.

This is incorrect because the barrel does not tilt immediately, It is the slide that pulls the barrel to the rear. The equal yet opposite force offset by the weight of the gun, your muscles and the recoil spring.

The linkage doesn't care about the pressure. It is largely a timed event.

When the cartridge initially goes off, it's like a bomb that wants to blow the barrel and slide apart. Barrel is pushed forward, and slide is pushed backwards.

The barrel is not pushed forward, except for some friction initially. Powder burns, not explodes. The breech face is what takes the initial impulse of the "equal and opposite", pushing the slide rearward, while the recoil spring absorbs and slows some of the force.

If you slowly push your slide rearward, you'll see that it and the barrel remains level, connected both in front and rear of the hood, for about 1/10 of an inch. It is in this time and small movement that the bullet leaves the barrel, pressure drops, the case releases from the chamber, the action begins to open and the cycle proceedes through to ejection and reload.

But physics is physics. Equal means equal and it happens simutaniously.

The slide on a conventional semi auto does not move backwards until the bullet has left the barrel.

That is incorrect. The animation is not accurate.

Here's some slomo video of pistol actions... watch at 2:18 - 2:27 and you'll see...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXZUMGRxPM4&feature=related

[Dobe]

I think I see the confussion. Look again at the video I linked to you. I never said there would be no movement backwards initially. Rather there will be movement (recoil of the slide and barrel (entire gun)). There is also enough forward pressure on the barrel to keep it from tilting. Therefore, while the entire gun will recoil as soon as the primer is dented, the handgun stays locked.

The slo-mo video really does explain it. You can vividly see the recoil, but the slide does not move away from the barrel until the projectile leaves the bore.

[Dobe]

This is incorrect because the barrel does not tilt immediately,The moment the slide begins to move rearward, the barrel begins to tilt.

The linkage doesn't care about the pressure. It is largely a timed event.Timing is a function of something. In this case pressure. When the pressure is reduced in the barrel, the bullet has left the bore, the pressure drops, and the barrel can tilt.

How would you explain this slow motion video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhGgYq3XOE&feature=related

[Manco]

I can't believe that we're even having this argument over something as fundamental as the short recoil system (putting aside the P7 for the moment, I guess). :eek: GLOOB is obviously correct, and every slow-motion video that Dobe has linked to actually helps prove GLOOB's point.

At the moment of ignition, the bullet, barrel, and slide ALL begin moving immediately because there is no physical, mechanical, or magical force to delay them in the short recoil system. The bullet moves in one direction, while the barrel and slide--which are still locked together and move as a single unit--move in the opposite direction. The tricky part is that the slide, being so much more massive than the bullet as well as being pushed against the recoil spring, moves very slowly in comparison to the bullet, such that it will only have moved a tiny bit by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. You have to look carefully to see this in the slow-motion videos, but it's definitely there (the animations, on the other hand, are different and therefore simply inaccurate). Only shortly afterward will the barrel unlock from the slide and tilt upward, whereupon the slide will continue moving on its own to cycle the action.

So in a sense, the system is designed with the right timing such that the bullet will leave the barrel before it separates and tilts, however this does not change the fact that the barrel and slide begin to move immediately while still locked together. And the fact that the distance they travel during this phase is short is the very reason that the system is called "short recoil" (from where the slide gets its momentum).

[harmon rabb]

magazines cost too much (but don't they all these days)

no. they don't. glock mags are dirt cheap, as are xd mags :o

[9mmepiphany]

The moment the slide begins to move rearward, the barrel begins to tilt.

Timing is a function of something. In this case pressure. When the pressure is reduced in the barrel, the bullet has left the bore, the pressure drops, and the barrel can tilt.


How would you explain this slow motion video?

this is incorrect, the tilting of the barrel and the timing of the action are not a function of case pressure, it is a function of the link

the barrel tilts because is is being pulled down out of engagement with the lugs by the link...that is what the link is there for.

it unlocks the barrel from the slide to allow the slide to continue rearwards after the bullet has left the barrel and the pressure has dropped. it also stops the forward motion of the barrel as the slide returns to battery

there is nothing to explain in the clip posted by Dobe...the bullet is leaving the barrel as the slide and barrel are moving backwards together

the clip posted by usp9 clearly shows the slide and barrel moving backward together in relation to the frame

[9mmepiphany]

The slo-mo video really does explain it. You can vividly see the recoil, but the slide does not move away from the barrel until the projectile leaves the bore.

you're right in that the slide is not moving away from the barrel...the slide and the barrel are moving together relative to the frame

[Art Eatman]

This has gone way off-topic...