[saturno_v]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong so help me seeing things from the right perspective.

Yesterday I was at one of my favourite gun shops, I know the owner by the name (and he knows me by my name) and I did buy several guns from him.

Of course, he's not my "friend" (or even an acquaintance) by any stretch of imagination, however he knows who I am, I'm always respectful and quiet.

I was patiently waiting for my turn when I noticed a lady that was showing to him a rifle she wanted to sell or pawn. I was not able to tell what model it was and I thought it was not nice to try to take a peek.

The guy kindly refused to take it because he claimed he had so many of them and was not able to offer to her a decent deal.

The lady was on her way out and, without thinking I admit, I followed her and by the door I ask her quietly if she can show me the gun....then almost the hell broke out...the guy almost jumped out of the bench and almost yelled in front of everybody "You cannot do that in my propriety!!" I immediately and clearly apologized for doing it and backed off...the guy kept repeating in a loud voice (and all redded up in the face) over and over "you cannot do that in my propriety" "If you want to do it go outside", basically ignoring my apology.

Frankly I was shocked by the overeaction.....I made a mistake but I think the reaction was out of proportion......and when the calm returned I pondered what to do, waiting for my turn.....I knew that the gun I was interested (a Chiappa 1911-22) was sold much cheaper in another store where I had to drive a little bit......initially I was willing to give him a chance to win my business and ask him what was the best price he could give me that pistol...but frankly, after that outburst, I decided otherwise and I walked out of the door.

What do you think of this episode?? Am I right or wrong??

[HGUNHNTR]

I used to work in a gun shop and this was everyones biggest pet peeve. It is extraordinarily rude and inconsiderate. Major faux pas, it sounds like you learned your lesson. I do understand that you were polite and apologetic, but when this happens over and over again, store owners get fed up in a hurry. Most of his frustration probably wasn't intended for you directly, but the countless people that have tried this before. Go back, apologize again, and tell him about how you were oblivious to how you were being disrespectful. If he's a decent guy, he'll be cool with that, you may even be in better standing than before the incident.

[SundownRider]

Sounds like his reaction was a lot over the top. I have been in several gun stores that frown upon you making an offer to someone who has been refused a sale by the store. They want to keep such transactions off their property, since they can be held liable for a gun sold on their premises that they have no record of.
Imagine the conversation.
"This gun was used in a serious crime, and they said they bought it here."
"I never sold that gun!"
"But they said the transaction occurred here."
"I never sold that gun! I refused to by it, and someone else bought it in the parking lot."
"So it did sell on your property, yes?"

See where it goes? I'd say he could have handled it better ( a lot), and you are free to vote with your feet and go somewhere else.
If you want to, later on when emotions have cooled, you could go and talk to him privately.

[Doggy Daddy]

I've left a place of business and never returned for far less than that. You were charitable.

DD

[LHRGunslinger]

IMHO I believe that seeing as "the guy" declined to make an offer on the object in question you were well within your right to ask to see it and make an offer. I used to do something similar at a local video game store when people brought in games they didn't want. The game shop offered them like $2 and I offered $10. None of the clerks there ever gave me any crap about it.

[Bubba613]

He was out of bounds.
He had already refused to buy the gun. You weren't making an offer on it, merely asking to see it. Had you wanted to pursue it, you could have told her to meet you outside.
Sounds like someone over-reacted.

[menacingsquirrel]

You made a mistake and apologized. If he's that bent out of shape, I'd take your business elsewhere. Especially if you're a regular customer.

[HGUNHNTR]

The game shop offered them like $2 and I offered $10. None of the clerks there ever gave me any crap about it.


Because they were minimun wage CLERKS that didn't give a damn about the store. Again, very rude disrespectful behaviour at another persons place of business.

[Bubba613]

I used to work in a gun shop and this was everyones biggest pet peeve. It is extraordinarily rude and inconsiderate.

I disagree. The owner and customer had finished their business. Saturno merely asked to see the gun. He did not say "how much you want for that?"
In my position when that happens I politely remind people they need to step off premises to pursue their business. Yelling at an established good customer is never a good idea.

[HGUNHNTR]

He is an ass and you should lodge a complaint with the BBB.

"Mr. gunstore owner yelled at me...waawaawaa" This is not what the BBB is for my friend.

[jimmyraythomason]

Yelling at an established good customer is never a good idea. And a VERY good way to create former customers.

[HGUNHNTR]

Also consider the fact that the proprietor needs to make a PROFIT on the gun, you could stand by the gun counter and offer better deals than the store all day if you wanted too. Consider your actions in the eyes of others occasionally.

[stchman]

to HGUNHNTR:

There is no <removed> way I am going to apologize to some ignorant SOB that yelled at me. People like that usually get slugged in the face by people they yell at.

He should be the one doing the apologizing to a PAYING customer. Last time I checked there are NUMEROUS gun shops in this world. No need to put up with some ignorant SOB. People are free to take their money to other places.

Agreed if a shop owner does not want that in their shop then that is the owners' right.

The OP should never patronize that business again.

[HGUNHNTR]

There is no <removed> way I am going to apologize to some ignorant SOB that yelled at me. People like that usually get slugged in the face by people they yell at.


Sounds like just the type of customer I would enjoy losing.

[Sniper X]

Well, he did overreact. And he owes you a big Sorry man! I had a similar incident at my favorite gunshop but with way better results. I was in there looking at 1911s and a guy walks in asking if they want to buy a nice 3in Taurus 88 in excellent condition. It is a copy of the smith 66 btw, anyway, I love 357mag revolvers and they know it at the shop. They politely told him they would not give him what he wanted for it but asked me right in front of him if I was interested in it. I said yes and we went to the parking lot where I ended up getting it for a measly 200 bucks. I walked back in and they said I made a great deal so i bought some ammo right there on the spot even though I could have gotten it cheaper somewhere else. Basically I GUESS you should have waited till both of you were out in the parking lot and made a deal. Personally I would go back to the store and tell the owner you are sorry for the misunderstanding and I'll bet he will apologize to you.

[Sam1911]

If he didn't want it that's his darned tough luck. I'd have stepped up right beside the two of them and said, "Well, if he isn't interested, I certainly am." I might offer to let him do a tranfser for me (though that would not be necessary in most states), but it is absurd that he'd get his knickers in a knot that someone else wants to purchase a gun that he did not.

Yeah, maybe you should take the transaction off of his property, but to act rude over it and get all bent out of shape is EXTREMELY poor customer service. If he wanted the chance to sell that gun to you, then he should have bought it when it was offered. If he passed on it, he has no reason to be angry that you DID choose to buy it.

(Switching voices for ease of expression...)

What kind of stupid charade are we playing that I can't mention to the seller while we're both there in the shop that I am interested? I'm either going to do it in front of the shop owner, or I'm going to go outside and say something in the parking lot. Acting like Miss Manners is going to look down her long snoot at me because I choose to buy a gun you didn't want makes you look like a fool.

In today's age, I don't HAVE to shop anywhere I don't choose to. There are MANY FFLs within a short drive. Put on a silverback gorilla display like that and you won't see my smilin' face again.

There are some wonderful people who own and work in gun shops. But there are a few age-old attitudes that should have been discarded decades ago and this "you've offended me by having options" attitude is a BIG one.

[HGUNHNTR]

Basically I GUESS you should have waited till both of you were out in the parking lot and made a deal. Personally I would go back to the store and tell the owner you are sorry for the misunderstanding and I'll bet he will apologize to you.


Yes, that is EXACTLY the way to handle it.

[stchman]

yo HGUNHNTR:

The business owner REFUSED to buy the gun. Therefore he is not going to be able to make a profit on what he has not bought.

Granted he might be selling the same thing in his shop, but last time I checked we live in a free country with a free enterprise system.

If the store owner is so adamant on this kind of thing happening they need a sign posted as soon as someone walks in.

[Hawk]

Perhaps there was a BATman in the backroom?

I've had at least two dealers state emphatically that personal transactions can't legally occur on an FFL's premises - these were cases when I was buying from his or one of his employees personal collection. We went to the parking lot.

I haven't been able to confirm that such a statute exists at the Federal level but given some of the rulings the BATFE has pulled from between their cheeks I wouldn't be surprised. At any rate we all know that if Mr. FFL believes it to be illegal it might as well be illegal for all practical purposes.

A personal belief that such carrying on will get one an invite to club fed, IMHO, would mitigate some but not all of an over-the-top reaction.

My dealer was being cautious and emphatic and I was buying the firearm from him. I can only imagine if I had started a transaction with somebody else.

[HGUNHNTR]

Yeah, maybe you should take the transaction off of his property, but to act rude over it and get all bent out of shape is EXTREMELY poor customer service. If he wanted the chance to sell that gun to you, then he should have bought it when it was offered. If he passed on it, he has no reason to be angry that you DID choose to buy it.


First off there was no customer service bent on this discussion, secondly he does have a reason to be angry. He was attempting to conduct business on the FFL's property. No it isn't illegal, just in very poor taste.

[Sam1911]

Point of order: Saturno did NOT stand next to the shop owner and try to outbid him on a deal. That would be rude.

The owner REFUSED the deal flat. Saturno then asked to see the gun.

There is NO conflict here. The world is full of options. As much as I love local FFLs, ones that display this attitude are more than welcome to fail and make room for others who can do their job with grace and respect.

[DFW1911]

Any laws regarding conducting private transactions in an FFL shop (I honestly don't know)? Think about how many laws and regulations he's bound by and it may shed some light on why he doesn't want private dealings in his shop.

His reaction may be based on either some law prohibiting such transactions (if the occur), the possible loss of livelihood if it is, in fact, illegal for private transactions on the premises (if he were to be shut down), or the potential liability he may incur if the firearm were used in a crime and his store was identified as the place of purchase.

At the very least, if you own a business, think about how it would feel to have someone come onto your property and try to conduct the exact same business. I'm sure many of us who are business owners would react in some way or another.

I'm not saying this justifies some wild-eyed, spittle-spewing, arm-flailing response, I'm just saying that we don't know his side of the story.

Just something to consider.

[HGUNHNTR]

Granted he might be selling the same thing in his shop, but last time I checked we live in a free country with a free enterprise system.


Living in a free country doesn't mean living in a country free from rules.

Did the owner over react, yes, does acting like an ass right back to him help the situation, no.

Now I understand why this was so prevalent in the ol' gunshop years ago.

The owner REFUSED the deal flat. Saturno then asked to see the gun.

This is why the dude got mad--Leave the store!

[stchman]

to HGUNHNTR:

It is also very poor taste to yell and be an ignorant SOB to a PAYING customer.

I swear some gun shop owners think they are doing you a FAVOR by selling you a firearm!!!!

I can guarantee this, the OP won't be going back to that business to spend his hard earned money.

The ignorant SOB lost a paying regular customer just because he wanted to be.........an ignorant SOB. If getting the last word is worth his business then that is his decision.

[saturno_v]

I would not have had any problem whatsoever if he just tapped me in the shoulder and tell me that I could not do that in his shop...I think that reacting that way in front of everybody with a customer he knows and did buy from him several times was a mistake.

I did already apologize for doing it on the spot...I do not think I need to do it again.

I don't know if I will shop there again or not....not planning to buy a new gun for a while anyway....after all I will look after my interests...if I find what I want at the right price I may buy from everyone.....this is my attitude, especially after yesterday.

[HGUNHNTR]

I agree it is in very poor taste to yell at anyone customers included. I'm just saying look at it from his perspective. The mature thing to do would be to go back, explain yourself, apoligize and make amends. If he still wants to be a jerk, I wouldn't go back either. I have seen it from both sides of the counter, and perspective makes a difference. Theres no reason to hold a lifelong grudge over a simple misunderstanding.

[oldfool]

well, I now know of TWO gun dealers who will not be cursed by any of my money

[stchman]

to saturno v:

Unless he goes out of his way to apologize to you (calls you on the phone) then I would not spend one penny more at his place.

Businesses that exhibit poor customer service cease to be businesses for long. Let him go out of business like he wants to.

Not only did he lose you, but he probably lost all the other customers in teh store.

All he had to say was that he does not allow private transactions in his shop (his prerogative) and to take it off of the shop's property. End of story. No he had to think he was super big shot gun store owner. Get back at him by decreasing his revenue.

[russ69]

I'm sure the gun store owner has seen this particular scenario quite a few times. I know I've seen it quite a few times. So that being the case, the gun shop owner should have already had a pre-determined way of handling this situation. I don't think yelling at or around customers is the method I would have used as the ideal solution. I'm afraid he has exposed himself as being a difficult person to do business with. Why shop where the owner chooses to berate customers, no thanks.

Thanx, Russ

[jimmyraythomason]

I'm not saying this justifies some wild-eyed, spittle-spewing, arm-flailing response, I'm just saying that we don't know his side of the story.
I can't see ANY circumstance that would justify this type of behaviour.

[doc2rn]

The last time I was in a gunshop and the owner didnt want to buy the firearm he called me over and asked me to make the fella an offer as I am a die-hard Revolever man. We came to terms and I thanked the proprieter for his assistance. This "not in my store" attitude has caused me to leave more than one guy doin the :cuss: :fire::banghead:dance, especially after they not only lowballed the guy they tried to rape him on the offer. Guy behind the counter offered him $250 on $3000 shotgun, guess who has it now!

[Sam1911]

I'm not arguing that they should stand there in front of the guy, haggle over price and exchange money under his nose.

But to get MAD that a customer asks to see the gun you just refused is utterly childish.

Bubba said it very well:
In my position when that happens I politely remind people they need to step off premises to pursue their business.

How hard is that? If a shop owner said THAT to me politely, I'd probably reply, "Great! Hang tight for a moment, I'm going to be needing some ammo and a sling shortly."

I often reward good service with more business. There aren't many kinds of retail store left that can get away with overt rudeness to their clientelle. And too often gun shops seem to really bring up the butt-end of that parade.

[stchman]

to HGUNHNTR:

Wars have been started over less. If someone does that kind of thing then they are just that way. I tend to separate myself from the a-holes of the world.

If a business owner does not treat me well I take my $$$$ to their competitor.

Hopefully the business owner learns a lesson as well before he loses his business.

[MinnMooney]

You made a mistake and apologized. If he's that bent out of shape, I'd take your business elsewhere. Especially if you're a regular customer.
I agree with this. It was a mistake but for the owner to publicly & beligerantly yell at you is so far over the top that it warrants a "never return" policy on the customer's part. If I were a customer in the store and was witness to this outburst, I'd tell the owner that he was wrong for the way he handled it and that if he didn't apologze then I'd probably be taking my business elsewhere for fear of something embarrassing happening like that to me over a mistake.

from HGUNHNTR (post #11) :
"Mr. gunstore owner yelled at me...waawaawaa"
How old are you? 8? What an unthoughtout & disrespectful comment to post on THR.

[HGUNHNTR]

Wars have been started over less. If someone does that kind of thing then they are just that way. I tend to separate myself from the a-holes of the world.

If a business owner does not treat me well I take my $$$$ to their competitor.

Hopefully the business owner learns a lesson as well before he loses his business

OMG dude you really need to take an anger management class and chill out.

[David E]

HE should apologize to YOU.

[CraigC]

Firstly, he asked to "see" it. I don't know about you guys, HGUNHTR in particular, but I've asked to see a hell of a lot of guns I had no intentions of purchasing. So for the shop owner to act the way he did, not only would I have taken my business elsewhere, I would've told him exactly why right then and there and what he could kiss on my way out. His actions were 100% inexcusable. If he were afraid a transaction was about to transpire on his premises, there are far more socially acceptable ways to relay that message than having such a stupid outburst.

[HGUNHNTR]

How old are you? 8? What an unthoughtout & disrespectful comment to post on THR.


I am 34 Minnmooney,and this was in response to the suggestion that the BBB be called on an upset store owner. :)

[SSN Vet]

Was this a table at a gun show or a gun shop?

What's the guy supposed to do.... set up a counter with a sign that says "private parties conduct your undocumented face to face transactions here". Or how about "queue up here to take advantage of little old ladies"

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when he explains how he facilitates undocumented face to face transactions on his premises during his next annual ATF inspection and audit.

The guy may have lost it, but I don't think you fully appreciate how much trouble he can get into for allowing his licensed store front to be turned into a gun show.

[atomd]

I agree with everyone that said the owner was in the wrong. If the owner said he wasn't going to buy it and the woman was leaving anyways, you didn't do anything wrong. And you didn't even offer her money for it, you simply asked to see it (for possibly a deal later on at another location I would assume). That's his tough luck. It's also his store and he can treat people however he wants to treat them. He might lose business because of that though.

Even if he was in the right, he really didn't have to react like that. He could have asked you both nicely to do things like that off of his property. People who flip out over something like that are probably not going to provide the best customer service down the line if you ever have a problem they need to deal with or help you with. I say avoid that place.

If you were standing up at the counter trying to outbid me on a gun in my shop, I would have kicked you out. But you weren't. There's a difference.

[poker88]

The mature thing to do would be to go back, explain yourself, apoligize and make amends.

Why is this the "mature" thing to do? The OP has already apologized and it sounds to me like he handled the situation very maturely while he was in the gun shop, why should he bother going back to apologize again?

[stchman]

to SSN VET

Yes, then he tells the people in question to take it off his property. Simple.

If person A bought a gun in front of a gun shop and then commits a crime with it how exactly does the ATF track it back to the store? A friend of mine owns a gun shop and the ATF needs a paper trial to work with.

The owner never logged that firearm in his log book, and he can say to the BATFE with 100% truth that he has never owned or bought/sold that firearm.

[HGUNHNTR]

Why is this the "mature" thing to do? The OP has already apologized and it sounds to me like he handled the situation very maturely while he was in the gun shop, why should he bother going back to apologize again

Because apologies are much more effective when the situation has calmed down, and peoples emotions have subsided.

[Tim the student]

Saturno, I don't think you did anything wrong, or acted inappropriately. If you had tried to take the sale from him, then sure - but that isn't the case.

While he may have been frustrated with everyone else and just lashing out at you, I think his actions would cause him to lose my respect and business. Regardless of the type of store, I expect to be treated with respect, and to see other customers treated with respect. Even if you asked to buy it, I would expect him to calmly tell us that we need to leave his property to conduct the sale. At least then he could have made some money of ammo and accessories.

I think the only way I would go back is if he sincerely apologized to me - and then, I wouldn't spend much in his store at all.

[SSN Vet]

stchman....

Do you think the ATF needs a reason or justification to pull this mans license and trash his livelyhood?

They'll do whatever they want to do, and it will cost him $20K (not to mention the fact that his shop just got closed down) to lawyer up and begin his protest.

I'm not saying the guy was right to blow his stack and yell.... maybe his dog just died, how do I, or you , or anybody else know.

My point is that I don't think any store owner is under any kind of moral obligation to provide a convenient, heated, airconditioned, dry and secure place for people to walk in off the street and conduct their private party deals.

The OP wasn't out in the parking lot... he was in the store!

Go try to pull that one at Cabellas or Dicks or whereever..... You might not get yelled at, but you will be asked to leave.

[HGUNHNTR]

^AMEN!

[Action_Can_Do]

SSN vet
There is nothing wrong with asking someone to leave. Yelling at a customer however...?

[cleardiddion]

I can understand where it might be rude and all to actually make a transaction inside the store, but to merely ask to see it...well, it may be my opinion but I believe that's an ok thing to do.

I can say that I've asked to see many a thing inside my favorite store that weren't their merchandise but, as long as I don't actually buy it off the individual inside the store I can't see there being a problem.

[stchman]

to SSN Vet:

How does the store owner KNOW that the OP was trying to buy the gun?

He simply asked to see it. Maybe his grandfather owned a gun just like it and he wanted to see it. Now if they started talking $$$$ then you can make an assumption.

The store owner got his point across, and in the process lost at least one customer maybe more permanently.

[ljnowell]

I cannot believe that there is anyone here that would defend this guys behavior. The owner turned down the opportunity to buy the gun. It would be different if the OP was standing at the counter and started a price war with the shop owner, but that is clearly not what has happened.

Sounds like the OP needs to find a shop where the owner is such a tightly wound individual. Also, I liked the mention of "sounds like a customer I would like to lose." Spoken like a true counter worker, not a business owner. No one wants to lose a customer that puts money in the till.

[stchman]

This thread is way off now.

It was never a question of whether the store owner allows FTF transactions in his store, but that if the store owner was warranted to berate a paying customer?

1. I agree that the store owner is well within his/her rights to tell a customer to leave. Furthermore he/she can tell a customer to never come back again.

2. It is in very poor customer service to yell at someone whether they were right or wrong.

3. The store owner could have politely said to take the transaction off the property.

[poker88]

Because apologies are much more effective when the situation has calmed down, and peoples emotions have subsided.


You are missing the part of the question about "why should he bother". There are other gun shops that he can go to and, it sounds like, get better prices. The shop owner had the right to ask him to leave before buying that woman's gun but the shop owner did not have the right to yell and scream at him.

[ny32182]

AFTER the individual and the shop had come to the conclusion that they could not reach a satisfactory deal on the rifle, I don't see anything wrong with making an offer on it, much less simply asking to see it.

IF the shop owner for some unknown reason (maybe there is a legal restriction, or simple personal preference) doesn't want FTF deals in the store, he could easily have politely reminded you to step outside.

I'll put it this way... there are about 5 gun shops within easy driving distance of me. 95% of my FFL business goes through one of them. I have a first-name basis greeting with whoever is at the counter when I go in there. I've spent who knows how many thousands of dollars in there over the last ten years. If anyone at that shop ever did anything like that to me, I'd be exiting the store for the last time immediately.

[Gouranga]

Alright. Yes the OP did absolutely commit a mistake. he should not have attempted engage in that transaction in the store. However that gun store owner, way in the wrong here. The guy did wait till the shop owner turned the sale down, did not get involved in the sale in any way, so he had that for him. He simply should have followed her out maybe given her his number and told her to call him on the gun and ended it there so there was no transaction on his property.

I am sorry, my LOWEST gun purchase at a store has been $500 and up to near $2,000. If I am going to your store to drop some money, you had best be better than that or I will leave your store and never return. i will see to it my friend never return, I will post negative on your store online for the rest of my life. It is called customer service. Give you customer the benefit of the doubt. Here he had a KNOWN customer who has bought items in the past.

Personally, I do not give a rats backside who other folks have done to him. I am the customer, you give them the benefit of the doubt. he could have easily, calmly and firmly stated, "Please, do NOT do that in my store." Provided you listened to him, then no harm no foul, he has not lost a customer, and he has a teachable moment.

He chose to work in a field where the general public are day to day thing. The general public suck, part of life though. Part of the job is to man up and treat customers fairly, they have no obligation to do that with you and a lot of them won't. I worked at McD's for 4 years and I got more nimrods at my register than I could put in an email. I was never rude (despite getting a couple death threats for cheeseburgers having catchup on them and a filet-o-fish with tartar on it), and I made 4.25 an hour.

There are 2 stores I frequent in my area. This is because the owners are good folk, and treat me with courtesy. When I was a noob, they were VERY patient with a multitude of stupid questions and I mean stupid questions. I commited some fouls (like dry firing a firearm) and they firmly straightened me up on the mistakes quickly. I have spent thousands of dollars with them as a result, and through recommendations probably been responsible for at least $100k in sales (in the last 2 years) from friends and family going there on my recommendation.

IMO, there is simply no cause for pi** poor customer service like that, none. I would never return to that store. I would make sure as many folks as possible knew why.

[SundownRider]

Well, this thread proves that if you treat a customer right, he will tell three friends about the experience. If you treat him badly, he will tell thirty about it.

[rbernie]

He was out of bounds.
He had already refused to buy the gun. You weren't making an offer on it, merely asking to see it. This.

Yes, it's rude to try to outbid the house - but it's equally rude for the house to get pissy when they pass on a deal and somebody else shows interest. More to the point, it's flatly unacceptable for anyone to yell across the counter, in either direction.

There is zero excuse for that, and anyone raising their voice across the counter owes the other an apology regardless of any preciptating factors.

[Gouranga]

Well, this thread proves that if you treat a customer right, he will tell three friends about the experience. If you treat him badly, he will tell thirty about it.

Actually, because I am such a stickler and a prick about bad customer service, I do the exact opposite for good customer service. I have posted the address and phone number of the stores I frequent online on many boards (where it does not violate the the rules of the board to do so). Granted not a common trait nowadays but if you are gonna go into a field like this you have to accept these types of things will happen and deal with it in a professional manner.

I mean, no matter what day he was having, just tell him not to engage in ANY sales on his property. If he listens hey great if he ignores you then it is time to get a bit more vocal about it. But to go off on someone...sorry but running any retail business it is not acceptable. He'd better have the best selection and prices in town if he is gonna treat people like that, cause his customer service won't keep folks coming at all.

[saturno_v]

Thank you guys for actually make me think about one aspect of the episode I did not consider so far....I just asked to see the rifle....and I could not even get to what kind of rifle it was before the guy started coming at me (it was some sort of bolt action rimfire or 22 Hornet I think)

Probably I should not even have apologized.....and for what?? just to look at a firearm??

[Gouranga]

Really, I would drop it, don't let it eat ya up and never go to that store again. If you want, make sure you pass the word about how they treat people. We shall see how well he stays in business treating customers like crud in an economy like this one.

[SSN Vet]

I don't know about you, but when I go public and tell stories about my experiences, I find that I usually give myself the benefit of the doubt every time and paint my words, actions and motives in a postitive way. No body here has heard the other side of the story. Yet many are quick to pass judgement.

How does the store owner KNOW that the OP was trying to buy the gun?

Perhaps because he's not stupid... apparently he makes his living selling and trading firearms (do you?) and most likely sees this kind of thing every day (do you?).

There's such a thing as "proving it beyond a shadow of a doubt in Judge Judy's court" and then "knowing with a high degree of certainty based on experience and probabilities).

Come on people, we live in a free society (at least for a little while longer we do). If the OP didn't like the store owners manners... don't go back.

And likewise... if he doesn't like your manners in his store... he's entitled to tell you to take a hike.

Why are so many "libertarians" so quick to call in the nanny police (BBB... oh please) to stuff their opinion down some one elses neck, on their private property.

I don't consider it polite or acceptable behavior to yell at people.

But I've seen so many "customers" try to rip off the company I work for in every way immaginable (and they often get away with it).

IMHO, the customer is not always right, and often deserves to be told to please go away and don't come back.

[Bubbles]

FFL was way out of line on this one as he'd passed on buying the gun. He could have just politely told the lady and OP to conduct business outside.

[jimmyraythomason]

often deserves to be told to please go away and don't come back. THAT can be easily done without screaming and arm waving. There IS NO excuse for that no matter how many sides there are to it.

[Werewolf]

stchman....

Do you think the ATF needs a reason or justification to pull this mans license and trash his livelyhood?

Uhhhh.... Yeah!
This is a nation of laws. The ATF is NOT exempt from them just because they're the ATF and gun guys like us want to believe they act as they are.

They'll do whatever they want to do, and it will cost him $20K (not to mention the fact that his shop just got closed down) to lawyer up and begin his protest.

NO! They won't. They'll do what they want only as long as what they want to do is within the law. The law may be total BS but it's still the law. Don't like it then elect officials who'll change it.

Too many of us want to believe that the ATF is run by and has agents that are all like those described in a number of popular gun books. It isn't. The ATF has done some bad things but those are the exception and not the rule that certain authors want us to believe (because that's what sells books). I'm no fan of the ATF or of their mission but the guys in it aren't the boogeymen many here want to believe they are.

I'm not saying the guy was right to blow his stack and yell.... maybe his dog just died, how do I, or you , or anybody else know.

None of which is relevant to the shop owner's behavior as described by the OP. The guy unecessarily blew a gasket and probably lost a customer and if there is a GOD lost more than just one.

My point is that I don't think any store owner is under any kind of moral obligation to provide a convenient, heated, airconditioned, dry and secure place for people to walk in off the street and conduct their private party deals.

Agreed...

The OP wasn't out in the parking lot... he was in the store! and the OP didn't offer to do business in the store all he asked was to see the gun.

Us gun guys need all the licensed FFL's and gun shops the market can bear. What we don't need are a'holes that behave like the one in the OP's post.

Go try to pull that one at Cabellas or Dicks or whereever..... You might not get yelled at, but you will be asked to leave.

Which is all the maniac in the OP's post had to do. Politely ask him to leave without all the yelling.

[cassandrasdaddy]

personal transactions can't legally occur on an FFL's premises

is the answer

[Sniper X]

Sundown said: Well, this thread proves that if you treat a customer right, he will tell three friends about the experience. If you treat him badly, he will tell thirty about it.

In this case over thirty thousand!

[searcher451]

I understand full well the sensitivity of the matter, especially where the FFL is concerned, but ... Praise in public, criticize in private. Even if you have a legitimate beef, you still criticize in private. The guy should have simply come around the corner, tapped you on the shoulder, motioned you aside and out of the fray, and expressed his feelings on the matter at that time -- in your eye only. It's Management 101.

[hometheaterman]

They would lose my business over that. After all, they had refused to purchase it anyway. I find stuff like this ridiculous. If they don't want it, they shouldn't stop you from being able to look at it. If they wanted you to go somewhere else to complete the sale, fine. Yet, you should at least be able to talk to the person there.

[oldbear]

Also consider the fact that the proprietor needs to make a PROFIT on the gun, you could stand by the gun counter and offer better deals than the store all day if you wanted too. Consider your actions in the eyes of others occasionally.

The O.P. clearly stated that the owner of the shop refused to make an offer on the item in question. The O.P. did not interrupt and try to make a counter offer. Heck if I had been in the O.P.s' position I very well may have done the same thing, except I would NOT have apologized to the store owner or anyone else. I will also assure you that I would have explained to the offending person why I will never do business with him again.

[Diggers]

No excuse for that shop owner.

The one thing I have enjoyed about these hard economic times is the customer service has gotten a lot better. It has brought me back to businesses.

Interestingly this shop owner has not seemed to notice this trend.

I once saw a situation in a coffee shop where the owner refused to sell a guy coffee, to go, because he had bought bagels at a bakery across the street. (The coffee shop sold those too) The guy stood there holding the bagel bag in shock, as did I. :what: The customer left, I didn't go back.

I was amazed at this coffee shop owner’s idiocy and arrogance.

A person can buy what they want were they want, if they happen to come into your store to spend money you thank them.

And people wonder why so many private businesses fail. :banghead:

[gc70]

There is zero excuse for that, and anyone raising their voice across the counter owes the other an apology regardless of any preciptating factors.

ANY business owner who yells at a customer will lose my business. People who lack the professionalism to treat their customers with dignity, respect, and restraint will probably demonstrate the same shortcoming in multiple ways, eventually to my detriment. And there is always another business available where professionalism prevails.

[Oyeboten]

Gun Store Owner was a poor business practice fellow.


All he had to say, with a genuine good humor, was -


"Ahem - Say you two, if you want to do a Gun Sale in my Store, come right on over here, and, we run it through me so I get little cut, some respect for my Turf, and so we all get to have fun and be included...and everyone's happy..."


Things would evolve then, as they please.

There is no good enough reason for his demeanor as it was, it hurt him and hurt everyone else.

Resentment or impatience or rudeness to others, intemperence, unkindness, are always "bad business".

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Read the OPs original statement. He merely wanted to "see the gun". The gun shop owner was blowing this way out of proportion. If he said straight out "I want to buy that gun." Then yes he hass a very valid reason to be <...irked...>. Gun shop owners need to become less pompous if we want to pass the tradition of shooting down to the youth. I started buying guns and getting into shooting at the age of 25 and almost gave up because shop owners see you as a "punk kid."

[LibShooter]

I used to work in a gun shop and this was everyones biggest pet peeve. It is extraordinarily rude and inconsiderate.

I understand that folks who work in retail must suffer fools all day long. However, they must be aware of two things.

1. I don't know every law that governs your business and every rule in effect in your store. If you need to educate me, do so in a polite and courteous manner. Aside from being good business, it's good manners.

2. I don't know (or care) how many of your customers did the same dumb thing or asked the same stupid question just before I entered your store. If you can't treat every single customer with respect, you should probably find a new line of work.

A police officer is not allowed to beat up a speeder because the last seven guys he stopped were mouthy. You don't punish folks for the bad deeds of others.

[wishin]

The gun store guy over reacted.

It's well known in the business world that it's easier to retain a regular customer, than to find a new one. Maybe he'll get lucky and replace the OP with a new customer in short order; in any event he's potentially lost a good customer regardless.

I would not return to the store unless an apology was proffered.

[Sniper X]

If I had been the shop owner I would have simply pulled the customer aside and politely let him know it is only legal to do what he was trying to do off my premisses and wish him good luck in the purchase. I would have also asked him to come back in after he made a decision and seen how it went so i could sell him some accessories for the newly aquired gun!

[waterhouse]

I can understand the owner of a gun shop not allowing a customer to buy a gun from another customer on his premises.

I can't understand yelling about it. A polite "I don't mean to be rude, but I can't allow purchases to occur under this roof that aren't in my books. If you want to do business, I'd appreciate it if you would take it outside." seems like it may have worked.

Heck, a "Ma'am, if you are uncomfortable selling that gun to a stranger, I can log it in and do a background check for a reasonable fee." would have kept everyone happy and netted a few dollars.

[stchman]

Some people need to express themselves in a belligerent manner. That's the way they are and he will learn a financial lesson when his customer base dries up.

[jimmyraythomason]

Some people need to express themselves in a belligerent manner. Those people often find themselve alone.

[Phydeaux642]

That sounds like something one of the gun shop owners in my neck of the woods would do. I've only visited his store one time and that was enough for me to realize the other gun shops in town would do just fine.

I may have caught her outside instead, but that guy sounds like a real pinhead.

[BeerSleeper]

The shop owner was way out of line. He had an opportunity to make an offer on the gun, and declined. He has no right to stand in anyone else's way after he's declined interest, and it was a definite D-bag move on his part. OP should not have apologize. OP should have told the dude to F off, and taken his business elsewhere.

[Gryffydd]

First off, I don't see how simply asking to see the gun was a breach of etiquette.
Second, even if the OP had breached etiquette, there is ZERO excuse for shouting by customer or proprietor in any circumstances.

Even if the OP made a grevious insult to the shop how does that ever excuse unprofessional and immature behavior like that? Talk about the low road.

[oldbear]

LibShooter

I understand that folks who work in retail must suffer fools all day long. However, they must be aware of two things.

1. I don't know every law that governs your business and every rule in effect in your store. If you need to educate me, do so in a polite and courteous manner. Aside from being good business, it's good manners.

2. I don't know (or care) how many of your customers did the same dumb thing or asked the same stupid question just before I entered your store. If you can't treat every single customer with respect, you should probably find a new line of work.

A police officer is not allowed to beat up a speeder because the last seven guys he stopped were mouthy. You don't punish folks for the bad deeds of others.
BLESS YOU SIR!!

[EddieNFL]

I followed her and by the door I ask her quietly if she can show me the gun....then almost the hell broke out...the guy almost jumped out of the bench and almost yelled in front of everybody "You cannot do that in my propriety!!"

Looking at a gun in a gunshop? Such horror! Idiot owner.

[Kingofthehill]

From what you say happened. i would never go back to that shop.

If he turned it down, its fair game. Luckily the shop i go to isn't a jerk like this. I was looking for an OD glock 23c for quite some time and his distributor was out of them. I was there for a Ruger 10/22 and a guy came in to sell his OD Glock 23c!.... the owner came over to me and said "Hey, if i hook you up on that Od 23 you want, are you still gonna buy that Ruger?"...

I said "yeah, why whats up"... he turned me over to the guy selling it and i bought his 23c and then i bought the ruger as well...

THAT is how a dealer should be IMO... I have spent 4-6k there this year, he knew by throwing me a $375 glock he would still make money off me. And i know thats why he is there, to make money.

From what you described, especially since the guy knows of you in a positive manner... he had no business freaking out if you ask me.

JOe

[Dentite]

Customer service in general is hard to come by these days (sadly) and its nearly non-existent in gun shops from my experience. There is a professional way to inform a customer of your wishes and there is the rude way. Seems pretty obvious which one I want to give any of my money to.

[MinnMooney]

Go try to pull that one at Cabellas or Dicks or whereever..... You might not get yelled at, but you will be asked to leave.

That's almost correct, SSN Vet. You won't get yelled at at Cabela's or Dick's because that's but one reason why they're still in business. They control their temper tantrums and take appropriate action. If one of their counter guys started yelling:cuss:, turning red in the face:fire:, drooling, spitting and generally throwing a hissy-fit:banghead: like the gun shop owner did, he'd be fired:( and led out the front door. The customer would get an apology and an explaination of what protocol he failed to adhere.

from Ademd :
I agree with everyone that said the owner was in the wrong. If the owner said he wasn't going to buy it and the woman was leaving anyways, you didn't do anything wrong. And you didn't even offer her money for it, you simply asked to see it (for possibly a deal later on at another location I would assume). That's his tough luck. It's also his store and he can treat people however he wants to treat them. He might lose business because of that though.

Even if he was in the right, he really didn't have to react like that. He could have asked you both nicely to do things like that off of his property. People who flip out over something like that are probably not going to provide the best customer service down the line if you ever have a problem they need to deal with or help you with. I say avoid that place.

If you were standing up at the counter trying to outbid me on a gun in my shop, I would have kicked you out. But you weren't. There's a difference.

Exactly. Very well (& respectfully) said. Maybe other THR'rs should take note of the way this was crafted with thought and respect for both the shop owner and the customer.

HGUNHNTR : Please read the above and ponder it for more than 2 seconds.
Theres no reason to hold a lifelong grudge over a simple misunderstanding.
Huh?!? Misunderstanding? The shop owner did a direct, purposeful & humiliating act by ranting, raving and generally losing control of himself with that display. It was certainly no "Misunderstanding"! The shop owner needed to immediately apologize in front of those same people who were in the store during his meltdown.

[ljnowell]

personal transactions can't legally occur on an FFL's premises

is the answer

You sure about that? At one of the gunshops I frequent its common to see FTF sales occur right on the counter in the shop. As long as the guns arent owned by the FFL, or in the book, or part of a deal for the shop, he doesnt care a bit.

[Hatterasguy]

The owner overracted. You kept it low key, and didn't even make an offer just asked to look at it.

I understand it can be a pet peeve of shop owners and rightfully so, but its not like you were bidding against him on it. He had the first crack and passed, after that its anyones.

[JohnKSa]

Also consider the fact that the proprietor needs to make a PROFIT on the gun, you could stand by the gun counter and offer better deals than the store all day if you wanted too. If he got into a bidding war with the proprietor that would be one thing. But after it's clear there's no deal in the works and the seller is leaving how could that possibly affect the proprietor in any way?

The proprietor isn't going to make a profit on a gun he's already said he won't buy so at that point profit is irrelevant as therefore it's also irrelevant (or it SHOULD be) to the proprietor if anyone else makes an offer after he's turned the deal down.But to get MAD that a customer asks to see the gun you just refused is utterly childish.I agree. The only way this makes even a TINY bit of sense is if the proprietor's strategy is to tell folks he's not interested in an attempt to get them to essentially give him the gun at a ridiculously low price.

In which case maybe he's embarrassed that someone might make it obvious that he's trying to cheat someone who doesn't know what they have...personal transactions can't legally occur on an FFL's premisesAssuming that's correct--which would surprise me--it's still not the answer.

Again, assuming it's correct, it would be a reason for telling the two people that they need to conduct their business off the premises to avoid legal issues. But it's absolutely not a reason to go into a screaming fit.

[Expertowgunner]

I used to work at a gun/pawn shop and people used to pull the move you just did every once in a while and i had to tell them to leave the premises if they wanted to conduct business. Its not even a issue of money, its a LEGAL issue and the ATF loves stuff like that to cram down your throat and try to shut you down. The guy overreacted and he had already made his offer and she was leaving so just meet her outside next time and not at the door. Most gunshops are NOT going to let you buy a firearm off a customer in the store and that should be common sense. Most of the time im really calm and tell them to please do it elsewhere but i did blow up on one guy but he F###ing deserved it. This was in late 08/09 when the obama scare was on and we couldnt get a decent black rifle in and one day a young man pulled up while i was smoking outside. He had 2 ar 15 rifles in each hand and walked up and asked if i worked here. I said yes and he told me he wanted to sell them so i asked him if i could finish my smoke and inspect them at the same time. A customer pulls up and walks toward to the kid with the 2 ar 15s and starts in on him asking if he is selling them right in front of me with my work hat on showing i obviously worked there. I told the kid to go inside with me and the other customer BLOCKED me from getting into the store and continued to make a offer to the kid. I told the customer to please move and he ignored me and finally i told him he needed to leave the premises now if he continued to act rudely. He turned and told me to f#$k off and i told him he had 5 seconds to get the hell off the property before i call the cops and he actually tried to instigate a fight over it. My boss saw what happened and walked out the door with his .45 in hand cocked and locked and politely asked if i was ok. I told him what this customer was up to and he said you need to leave if you know what is good for you. he left and i was in disbelief that the event even took place. Rule of the story is be polite and use common sense in a situation like that and remember it is NOT your shop.

[alohachris]

Disproportionate & unnecessary response by the shop owner, IMO. I would not buy there again after that kind of outburst.

I don't think of purchases as 'buying'. I think of it as 'voting' with my dollars. Company makes a good product, I 'vote' for them. A shop offers good service & reasonable prices, I 'vote' for them as well. If that happened to me, I would 'vote' for another business with my cash.

[Tim the student]

Its not even a issue of money, its a LEGAL issue and the ATF loves stuff like that to cram down your throat and try to shut you down.

Can anyone explain why it is a legal issue? A couple people have said that it is, and one poster has explained how his gun shop allows it. So, whats up?

If I missed it, please direct me to the post #.

[DFW1911]

Based upon many replies, it appears that often "tempers" are lost in the moment. Ironic, huh? Civil language - or worse - is not subordinate to its intent.

The nice thing about arguments is that both parties are right and that both parties are wrong: it's a matter of perception. Prudence would dictate that the truth lies somewhere in the middle...

We DON"T know the shop-keeper's story, but we're quick to condemn...or we KNOW the OP's story, and likewise, we're quick to condemn.

It's difficult to draw a meaningful and reasonable conclusion from a one-sided story.

Is this not what we complain about happening in the news on a daily basis?

Just my $.02

YMMV

[killchain]

He was out of bounds.
He had already refused to buy the gun. You weren't making an offer on it, merely asking to see it. Had you wanted to pursue it, you could have told her to meet you outside.
Sounds like someone over-reacted.

+1.

I would have apologized to the gun store owner, and asked the lady to show it to me in the parking lot.

And never given him business again.

[klash545]

gun stores suck,thats why i generally dont even step foot in one. they're overpriced jerks that almost never have what you are actually looking for....and if they do its overpriced. sounds like the guy was a jerk,he didnt even offer to buy it....he had no right to do that at all. its not like he gave a price and you offered more,screw them,i wouldnt set foot in that store. go buy your chiappa at the other store and save some money.

[EddieNFL]

I would have apologized to the gun store owner, and asked the lady to show it to me in the parking lot.

And never given him business again.

All but the apology. Such folks are too ignorant to accept a sincere apology (as in this case).

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // I prefer to do business with people who respond not react.

I have almost made the same mistake in Penn. Luckily my Dad was there to slow me down.

The GS owner offered an older lady $40.00 for Remington 552 Speedmaster(around here a>$200.00 rifle). I almost reacted a bit myself, and I'm sure the look on my face gave her pause. She turned him down and I started to follow her out but this was my Dads local GS so I stopped, much to his relief. We talked about it later and agreed this happens all the time I am just not privy to the transaction.

At least now you have a better idea of the quality of person behind the counter.
There might be better bargins in the parking lot than in the store. You might want to print up a Face to Face transaction card (this is legal in S.C.) and keep frequenting the area but not the store.
I frequent seven GS or Pawn shops and only one of them is over the top in price and attitude. I would probably not even follow someone into the parking lot at the other six stores, maybe slip the seller my phone # if the firearm was something I'm looking for. At the one with attitude I'd follow the seller right out and investigate what they had and if they had others.

[MinnMooney]

You might want to print up a Face to Face transaction card
What is a "Face-to-Face card"? Is it just a personal information card stating that you are a gun enthusiest and would like to see any guns that the person has for sale? If that's it, it sounds like a great idea and a good icebreaker.

[gyvel]

He owns the business and he should have politely said that he does not allow that on his premises and to please take it outside. Yelling and screaming is completely uncalled for. You did not break any law.

While it is not illegal to make inquiries on/in the premises of an FFL...

If I recall correctly (and I may not be), I think it is illegal to make a transaction on/in the premises of an FFL dealer, meaning between two people who happen to be in the shop at the same time.

Any deal like that has to be off the premises of said FFL (if I recall correctly, that is).

[Justin Holder]

I'm reminded of the old saying:

"You catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar"

[dubbleA]

It bothers me that most have condemed the shop owner without hearing his side of the story........ I would have to hear his side before coming to a conclusion.

[Bubba613]

Unless that particular owner is on this board we will not hear his side. We can only go with what we are given. In this case what the OP reports is entirely believable, thus the conclusion.
Sometimes people post things that are not believable and get called on it. Maybe it didnt happen the way the OP said. Maybe he actually tried to get in the middle of an active deal. But I haven't seen anything that makes me think that.

[sig220mw]

The owner over reacted and there was no excuse for it no matter what some other owner/employees of gun shops say. He could have been polite about it. After all that is what he would expect from a customer. If it had been the other way around he probably would have asked you to leave and not return.

I was in a gun shop in Ft Worth a few years ago and asked about a certain firearm and an employee said that there was no such gun. I had seen it in a brochure I had gotten from the manufacturer and said so. The guy blew up and yelled "YES SIR, YES SIR, whatever you say is right". A few weeks later I returned with the very firearm I had asked about after purchasing it at another shop. The employee was obviously embarrassed and didn't want to talk to me and walked off in a huff.

[Myles]

It sounds like over-reaction, but I imagine the owner sees this all the time. He makes a lowball offer, knowing that a fair percentage of the time, the seller will come back later with more realistic expectations. His overreaction was to blow a gasket to a known customer. Like you, I would left, and never darkened his door again.

There is a reason the internet is killing mom and pop gunshops. Gunshops are dying out too frequently. It's not the prices on the internet; it's that mentality that you can do business with him or not at all. "My way or the highway" does not work in this economy. The internet has opened up resources to be able to research information and purchasing prices that an FFL would have dreamed about less than 20 years ago. Now, all of that information is in the hand of the consumer.

In this economy, no customer will allow themselves to be treated that way. It's a shame that a business owner can honestly think that his customer base won't melt away and disappear if they are treated this way. Don't becry the internet; look at your clerks and counter people and their people skills, or at your own.

I might have asked the owner directly, right then and there, if he minded if I ask her what she had and what she wants for it. A quick "What was she selling, do you mind if I look and make an offer?" Respect what he says, you are in his place of business, on his property. Being treated like some lowlife thug by a man with whom you have done business with, that is not part of the equation. You did the right thing - this guy needs to learn how to be an adult, and a modern business owner. Number 1 rule of business = Customers.

[MinnMooney]

It bothers me that most have condemed the shop owner without hearing his side of the story........ I would have to hear his side before coming to a conclusion.

I believe the version as stated by the OP. Even if the story were "made up" or changed, what we are commenting on is the incident as presented.

[Ramman911]

If this is an ongoing problem for this guy thus resulting in the attitude he has shown, maybe he should put up a sign that no private sales are to be done on property or something like that.

Barking at customers who in turn are your "Bread & Butter" is not a smart thing.

A simple sign can solve this from ever happening again (except for those who actually don't care and do it anyway, THOSE people need to be booted out on their butts)

[Guncollector1982]

Its not a private exchange until money passes hands and furthermore the guy is a horses arse in my book as are so many in the sales department of any kind of goods and i wouldnt give him the time of day... Best deals ive ever made were private in vehicles and guns. I suspect that private exchanges are a pet peeve to stores cause they dont want little old ladies to know just how dishonest in there business they are.... A local store heres top paying price is 60 percent condition value even if the guns 95 percent or higher store policy then they add another 100 dollars on to there 30 percent markup of its actual value.

[moredes]

It bothers me that most have condemed the shop owner without hearing his side of the story........ I would have to hear his side before coming to a conclusion.

If I had been present, even as a bystander, I wouldn't care what the shop owner had to say. He said enough. I wouldn't set foot in the store again.

Some folks claim Saturno_V was "disrespectful"... of whom?? Obviously, the shop owner deserves no respect at all. Unbeknownst to everyone until this event, the shop owner conducted himself politely (we must assume) in every previous encounter, but for only one reason-- only because there was a potential for money to change hands, and a profit to be made. This was *never* a relationship based on respect; at least from the perspective of the shop owner, that much is certain.

"Faux pas":scrutiny:... big effen deal. I've been in a pawn shop as a customer in the exact same situation. The store owner, a man named Curtis, turned down a possible exchange. I asked how much the potential seller wanted for a handgun. Curtis politely said to me, "Aaron, you'll have to stop your conversation and take that outside if you have an interest." No 'please'. But he was polite, civil, and spoke in an even tone. No tantrum, no hostility. I don't even know Curtis' last name. I apologized, and it was over. I doubt Curtis even remembers. IF the claim is that this happens a lot in gun stores, then get over it--if you're gonna run a gun store you better get used to the idea that this is part of your day. Obviously, Curtis realizes it's not understood by the public, and that there's no insult intended. And Curtis conducts himself with more dignity than a panting dog over a dollar. That's why I go there.

[Carl N. Brown]

A gun dealer who gets a reputation for allowing private off the books transactions on his premises can be targeted by ATF; the dealer's "over reaction" could have been due to stress. Every gun transaction within a gun dealership should result in a 4473 transaction form to avoid suspicion.

I have seen a dealer stressed out by having obvious ATF stooges come in and talk about doing illegal transactions in a sting operation. He picked up the phone and dialed the local ATF office with the gents in his shop and they left. If I discuss a private gun transaction, it will be at a private venue, never in a gun dealer's shop.

[Sam1911]

There is a reason the internet is killing mom and pop gunshops. Gunshops are dying out too frequently. It's not the prices on the internet; it's that mentality that you can do business with him or not at all.

Isn't it funny that retail owners and employees supposedly exist to offer a service to their customers. Most consumer goods could really come from anywhere, including mail-order. Most good retailers (and their employees) understand that folks like to come to a place where they can see the product, handle the product, and maybe discuss their needs with a salesperson who (appears to) understand the relative merits of the available choices.

This existed universally in the not-too-distant past. Grocers met each customer and asked what they wanted -- and then went and got it for them while they waited at the counter! Department stores had floorwalkers who would politely attend to a customer, helping them find, select, carry, and package up their purchases. Guns were sold in hardware stores and department store by clerks who offered genial advice and a smile. Mail order was possible, but who would want to buy that way when you could go have a nice chat with a friendly salesman who'd patiently let you try out your choices and help you make a selection?

("Ahh, the Winchester! An excellent choice, Sir! Shall I wrap that up for you?")

Since 1968, when most firearms transfers were mandated to go through the new Federal Firearms Licensed dealer system, gun stores started becoming more circumscribed, and the gun buyer became largely a captive audience. The FFL dealer requirement created a forced relationship whereby the buyer really had few options. The idea of the customer "always being right" -- or even worthy of respect -- went into decline. Gun shops became dingier, dirtier, less welcoming places. With few competing venues available, why put out extra effort? Where were gun buyers going to go?

I honestly think that's the primary reason behind our nearly universal complaints about gun shops: poor selection, high prices, waiting interminably for someone to even SPEAK to you, bad (even dangerous) advice, huge egos, reluctant service, and the audacity to YELL at a customer over a perceived slight.

Not that any of these things are universal! I've know a bunch of really good FFLs, and my hat's off to them. But if you hang out with gun guys very long, you hear the same bad stories over and over, and again!

The internet has really caught the dealers off-guard. It is hurting them, definitely, because the accessory and ammo market is now completely wide open -- if there is one guy 3,000 miles away who sells an item at a huge loss, you won't be able to even sell them at cost. But the information available to most gun buyers is so great these days that a dealer can hardly open their mouth without looking uninformed. And, with guns being sold at minimum mark-up by on-line dealers, while the transfer still has to take place at the local FFL, the dealer mark-up has to be kept very low to compete.

That's the tough reality of gun sales in the 2000's. Oddly, many dealers are stuck in 1983 and don't realize that their captive audience is gone. Or do understand it and bitterly resent it.

Ironically, I still love to go to gun shops. I like the smell, and the racks of guns to inspect in person. I think most folks do. I do appreciate good front-end customer service, too. But dealing with the anachronistically LOUSY "average gun shop counter guy" is just too off-putting. So, while I bemoan seeing a gun shop go out of business, part of me says we're better off losing the bad ones. Maybe the good ones will flourish -- IF they pick up the slack and offer the personal service that has degraded so badly.

[Scrapperz]

Very well put Sam. I totally agree.

[Werewolf]

I'm reminded of the old saying:

"You catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar"
True...

But you catch the most with poop! :D

[Werewolf]

Since 1968, when most firearms transfers were mandated to go through the new Federal Firearms Licensed dealer system, gun stores started becoming more circumscribed, and the gun buyer became largely a captive audience. The FFL dealer requirement created a forced relationship whereby the buyer really had few options. The idea of the customer "always being right" -- or even worthy of respect -- went into decline. Gun shops became dingier, dirtier, less welcoming places. With few competing venues available, why put out extra effort? Where were gun buyers going to go?


I've lived in Oklahoma city for the past 25 years. In the Metro there are 6 real gunstores (used to be 8) and a slew of pawnshops that sell guns. Forget the pawn shops, the Academy Sports etc - they are what they are.

Of the 6 real gunstores, 3 are dark and dingy with crusty old farts or smartass kids running them. Of the other 3 left 1 is semi-dingy with about 1/2 and 1/2 good sales people and jerks behind the counter. 1 is a clean, well lit, professionally laid out and modern facility run by pirates who absolutely believe that the IQ of the average gun buyer is around 90 or so and treats its customers according to that attitude. The last one has professional sales people who are polite, mostly knowledgeable and understand that their jobs depend on selling guns. The store is huge, well laid out and the guns on display are displayed in a well thought out manner.All but one of the six has declined or stayed the same over the past 25 years. The other has tripled in size, bought out the 2nd largest gun dealer in the area in the past 2 years and continues to grow.

Guess which one has tripled in size and is still growing.

[gym]

I agree he could have handled it without the Drama. I get very defensive if someone starts screaming at me as I am sure most of us do. I would never go back there. He could have made his point in a normal conversation. I had a dealer at a gunshow do that to me, after he asked me what I thought the gun should cost, when I said "no thanks". I told him to give me his laptop and I would show him how much it retailed for. He went nuts, started calling me all kinds of names, cursing etc. I asked him if he would like to go outside and discuss this in private, he dissapeared.

[jackpinesavages]

I do this in Gander Mountain, almost everytime I am in there lately.

Screw 'em. They have G22 police trade-ins listed for $549 and the used equipment is most often priced more than new weapons.

The guy turned the lady down on her rifle and you offered to look at it, and perhaps make her day with a sale. Which, in turn, might have left HER with a good impression of the premises no matter WHO bought it from her.

[TexasBill]

I don't care whether the guy was selling guns, gutters or gumballs; you treat your customers with the same respect you would expect them to treat you. If the OP breached proper etiquette, a polite but firm request to handle such business elsewhere is in order, but to lose your temper in such a fashion is likely not only to cost the business of the OP but that of other potential customers, as well. Worse, word can get around about the "out-of-control" gun store owner, possibly costing you even more business. People will go miles out of their way to avoid an unpleasant retailer.

I have worked in a gun shop and have worked in retail management where my responsibilities also included sales and dealing with problem customers. My wife manages a supermarket and deals with problem customers every day. It doesn't matter what kind of day you've had or whether the ATF is breathing down your neck; you don't get to have outbursts like that. Sound tough? Sound unforgiving? It is. But that's business.

[jimmyraythomason]

People will go miles out of their way to avoid an unpleasant retailer.
I certainly will and often do.

[BlayGlock]

I know this has been rehashed. Granted you should have waited until you guys were outside, however, that guy should not have reacted like that. Especially since he declined to buy the gun. I would not buy from that guy again. I dont care if it does happen all the time at gun shops, you act like that you dont get my business and Ill tell people about how I was treated there.

[THe Dove]

Anyone screams at me for my bad, then I apologize, and mean it when I do..... If he/she continues, then that means dis-respect and I dis-respect right back! I learned that from my father and I learned that in the work place. Twist and turn it as you want but dat's du way it is 4 me!

The Dove

[buck460XVR]

As per a coupla other threads on the forum, maybe the gunshop owner suspected you were an BATFE agent pulling a sting in his store. Maybe his overly animated objection to your FTF purchase within his FFL storefront was only a ruse to prove to you(the suspected BATFE agent) that everything he did was on the up and up. Just sayin'.:rolleyes:


Or.......... he could have been having a bad day and just over-reacted. The multitude of these kind of threads here on the forum is proof that not everyone that owns/works in a GS/Wal-mart is knowledgeable and/or has a bubbling personality with a plenitude of people skills. I suggest you move on and get on with your life, make peace with him or go somewhere else.

[EddieNFL]

That's the tough reality of gun sales in the 2000's. Oddly, many dealers are stuck in 1983 and don't realize that their captive audience is gone. Or do understand it and bitterly resent it.

I've listened to more than one dealer bemoan the net (and the AWB sunsetting).

Ironically, I still love to go to gun shops. I like the smell, and the racks of guns to inspect in person. I think most folks do. I do appreciate good front-end customer service, too. But dealing with the anachronistically LOUSY "average gun shop counter guy" is just too off-putting. So, while I bemoan seeing a gun shop go out of business, part of me says we're better off losing the bad ones. Maybe the good ones will flourish -- IF they pick up the slack and offer the personal service that has degraded so badly.

I enjoy gunshops, as well. I don't mind paying a premium to be able to handle before I buy, but don't try to put your kids through college with one sale.

[jl1966]

It is always strange to me how we will take treatment from a gun store owner / employee that we would not accept from any other salesperson. I refuse to do this. The OP committed a small breach of ettiquete by trying to talk to the lady in the store. This hardly merits being berated loudly by the owner. I would simply have left the store, never returned, and told everyone I knew about the way I was treated at that store.

[CHEVELLE427]

i would have went outside to ask her to see the gun after he passed on it. did this on a camera once at a pawn shop, he didn't want it so i bought it. funny thing was i was in there to buy that type of camera

[docsleepy]

I would have had NO IDEA that there was any law against buying something from another free citizen. The Owner obvioulsy didn't want it. I want the owner to stay in business, but all he has to do is politely explain WHY he doesnt' want me to speak about the gun in his store. He could even say WHERE I could do it.

I assume that people in a gun store are PRO-GUN, which also means they are PRO-OWNERS of guns. They should be there to HELP me, which includes educating me. Education I appreciate. Yelling at me? I'll be gone quicker than a flash. There are many other places to shop.

All of us over-react at times. All it takes is a, "golly, I could have said that better....sorry" and it is over. But avoiding the problem in the first place is much better. Create a positive ambience in your place of business.

[CHEVELLE427]

he probable just paid his gun bill and could not afford the gun in question and got ticked off seeing a lost sell he passed on

[lonegunman]

For starters the shop owner took a pass on the gun. He got a crack at it and passed, whast does he care if someone else buys it?

It would have been far smarter to follow the lady out the door and talk to her in the parking lot then if you had interest buy it elsehwere.

The temper tantrum is the mark of a loser with lousy prices. I'd make an effort to do business in the future. I have a rather intense dislike for people who cannot stop ranting when they hear an apology. Point was taken, understood, apology offered with sincere meaning, now get over it.

[hso]

The thing I've always done is after the shop turns the firearm down I ask the owner and the shop owner, "Do you mind if I take a look at that?". I've never gotten a "Yes, I mind." Any transaction is made outside out of respect for the shop. If the shop is too busy to ask the shop owner, I wait outside for the person with the firearm and ask if they would be willing to sell it.

There's a very delicate etiquette in not using your favorite privately owned gun shop as a private hunting ground for interesting firearms. I want the shop to stay open and be profitable, but once they've declined to purchase something that is of interest to me I'm not hurting their bottom line by respecting them and dealing with the firearm owner in the parking lot.

[Werewolf]

I've listened to more than one dealer bemoan the net (and the AWB sunsetting).


Darwin will take care of those guys.

The survivors will embrace the net and make it their own. Get a website and the world or at least the whole of the USA if you're an FFL becomes your customer.

Can anyone say Buds Gun Shop? That guy is the perfect example of a gun dealer that embraced the net instead of cursing it.

[Black Butte]

It sounds to me like the proprietor may have been concerned with some underlying legal issue, such as a sale on the premises without a background check. Maybe some of Bloomberg's undercover operatives were rumored to be in the area. In his eyes it could have been a potential sting.

[Patriotme]

I've noticed that some of the local gunshows have begun to post signs stating the private sales are not allowed on the premises.

[trigun87]

I wonder if this happened in florida? Because I went to a local gun store and one of the employees warned me about exactly what the op did. I had a gun that I wanted to sell to them and they super low balled me, and a guy offered to buy it at a better price. The employee said " Don't let the owner see you guys talking about selling a gun amongst yourselves". He continued to tell me yesterday a similar situation happened and the owner lost his mind; similar to the OP. Either way the whole yelling thing is a sign of poor businessman, what if other customers saw.

[Fishslayer]

Bad form... I woulda gone outside if I was interested.

No need to yell & get insulting, tho. I don't know if I'd patronize that shop anymore...

Kinda got a two wrongs going on here...

[Erik M]

"you cannot do that in my propriety"

I missed the news report when FTF firearm sales became illegal in the USA. The FFL is a fool. You're better off shopping elsewhere.

[Crash_Test_Dhimmi]

The FFL has every right to act like a neanderthal
The Customer has every right to let his money do the talking and take his business elsewhere. I would take my money to a shop that respects its customers and its owners remembers to take their meds.

[Evergreen]

Just imagine if a salesman at a variety of any other businesses acted this way? Why do some gun shop owners feel like gods?? Whatever happen to customer service?? I say screw the guy.. Also, I would say screaming at a customer in such a manner can also be considered a threat and harrassment. If I was as much of a hardhead as the owner of the store, I think I could file a legal complaint against him. Of course, I am not really into getting into legal disputes with people. However, the guy could have just as easily said in a polite tone, "Please leave me store or the property if you will pursue outside gun deals."

Don't feel shy to post the name and store of this person. I would like to know who it is to make sure I and nobody I know gives this person business again. I am sorry, but you are the customer, and the customer is always right, even when he is wrong. There are a few exceptions like if you endanger another life, but this applies to more then just gun stores. I am sure if you went on a test drive at a car dealer and started running red lights and swerving around pederstrians you would get yelled at too. These cases are very much the exceptions, in every other case, customers are treated with respect.

[Russ Jackson]

No cherry picking in another guys business. You found out the hard way. Why didn't you just ask the guy if he minded you talking to the customer after he passed. Personally I think you should have understood this before you approached the lady. I also think if you did buy it from the lady in the parking lot you owed the guy a finders fee. The owner never should have yelled he should have told you that that cherry picking is not allowed in his shop...Russ

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

To those of you who say the OP made a mistake, I disagree. The owner had just turned down the gun flat, not low-balled an offer. Had he low-balled an offer, it would have been rude to say "I'll give you a little more than that."

The OP might have followed the woman out and made his offer in the parking lot, but I don't feel he was in the wrong to do it inside the store.

From the OP's description of the owner's reaction, it was uncalled for.

I would go way out of my way to never go back.

On a somewhat related note, I have deliberately trolled gun-show tables and back-doored table dealers who were low-balling offers on guns. I've listened to more than one "Trader-Horn" piss and moan over me paying a fair price for a gun he was trying to buy at half value. I usually smile and walk away. Some may think this rude, but is it any more rude than the guy low-balling his offer?

KR

[AnimeFanatic5602]

Even if it wasn't me being yelled at, I would've marched right up to the counter and told him that he'd just lost my business. Asking to see the rifle was not the same as offering to buy it.

[Gryffydd]

if you did buy it from the lady in the parking lot you owed the guy a finders fee.
Hah. This might make sense if he'd asked the dealer to find him that particular gun, and then tried buy it direct. The dealer didn't find it for him so why should he owe him anything?

[ljnowell]

Screw the owner of that shop and screw owners that low ball people out of firearms and get pissy when others call em on it.

The OP should have told the owner to eat a S*** sandwich and freaking left. There is zero reason a gun shop owner should ever treat their customers like that. PERIOD.

I am just waiting for the day when they make it so you can order guns on the net and have them sent to your home.

It will be the death knell of crappy gun store owners using their FFL to browbeat local shooting populations

If a shop owner paid what a gun was worth, and then sold it for what it was worth, then he would make no money. If he offers 50% of value on a 400 dollar gun, then has it in inventory for 6 months to sell it for 350, because everyone haggles, he made 150 bucks for holding it for 6 months. During this time his shelf space and money are tied up into it.

[Corey]

I've noticed that some of the local gunshows have begun to post signs stating the private sales are not allowed on the premises.
:scrutiny::confused:

I always thought that part of the whole reason gunshows existed was for private parties to get together and buy, sell, and trade guns.:)

[Full Metal Jacket]

he probable just paid his gun bill and could not afford the gun in question and got ticked off seeing a lost sell he passed on

private sales on gunhop property can be seen as selling guns without the proper paperwork in the eyes of the ATF.

most folks use a little sense, and don't engage in such transactions on their propery, or right in front of the gunshop owner.

i do think the gunshop owner mentioned in the OP was very rude though, he certainly could have been nicer about it.

[danez71]

This is simple in my eyes.

Shopman should have said "if you two want want to buy/sell using my services I'm happy to help.... If you want private party sell and not use my services, take it away from my shop".


After he passed on making an offer..... there is NO harm in another asking to SEE it.

Any type of offering between the two private parties in his shop is very poor taste.

For him to yell across the store.... incredibly unprofessional. If I was a bystander, I'd seriously consider not coming back at all.

[Spector]

I had a bad experience with a gunshop owner about 20 years ago. I was price shopping 3 different pistols and I wrote the prices down on paper. The gunshop owner blew up and accused me of getting the prices for his competitor. I told him what I was actually doing and said I'd turn my list over to him and just leave, if he wanted it that way........but I'd never come back. After a few more days of price shopping it turned out the first gunhsop had the lowest price on a Ruger MK 2 I had priced. When I went back in his shop I reminded the owner who I was and told him he had the lowest price so I came back to ''buy''.

We got along well for years after that and I actually got to like the guy. He was sometimes rude to other people and I didn't like the way he sometimes talked to his wife and sister who worked there, but I began to realize he had his problems just like the rest of us. Since I retired I don't have occasion to be in the area where his shop is located much anymore.

Still, I've never regretted going back and trying to explain what I was doing when he got so mad. I've read many of the posts here and see truth on boths side of issue involved.

If you still feel bad that the incident happened at all, then you might go back and explain to the owner that you were not deliberately trying to make him mad and that upon reflection you can see his side of it. If he reacts reasonably then keep talking until the bad feelings are gone on both sides.

Most stocking dealers sure don't want to lose customers.....at least needlessly.

If he becomes loud and beligerant when you explain then just tell him ''bye, I won't come back, and it's likely that most of my friends won't return either. Have a good day.''

Don't be stubborn.......and give him one more chance not to be stubborn as well. If he bulls up and gets nasty then walk away knowing you've done all that any decent man should have offered to do to make things right. He'll eventually pay financially and emotionally.

From the sound of the guy it could easily be the same gunshop owner I spoke of earlier.....or even another stocking dealer I know of.......Mike

[Deltaboy]

The owner was over the top rude and I would not do business with him again!

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I missed the news report when FTF firearm sales became illegal in the USA.

It has nothing to to with being illegal. The gun store is private property, and the owner can disallow any behavior on that property he wants.

I can totally understand a store owner not wanting customers to low-ball sales in the store, like others have said; what would stop someone from just standing near the counter and offer a few dollars difference on every gun the store owner wanted to buy or sell? That being said there is no reason to yell at a customer. Unless you were doing something unsafe, yelling is totally inappropriate. If I were you, I would go back and politely inform the owner that he permanently lost my business because of his theatrics.

[HOOfan_1]

I had a bad experience with a gunshop owner about 20 years ago. I was price shopping 3 different pistols and I wrote the prices down on paper. The gunshop owner blew up and accused me of getting the prices for his competitor. I told him what I was actually doing and said I'd turn my list over to him and just leave, if he wanted it that way........but I'd never come back. After a few more days of price shopping it turned out the first gunhsop had the lowest price on a Ruger MK 2 I had priced. When I went back in his shop I reminded the owner who I was and told him he had the lowest price so I came back to ''buy''.


I was actually doing the exact same thing recently, writing down prices at different places on paper. I went to plenty of shops, some were very helpful and others were aloof and apparently didn't give a rip about my business.

I would not have gone back to the guy who accused me of something without having the slightest clue what he was talking about. If I did go back, it would be to tell him about the sale he lost (although I certainly hope I would be above that).

Seems to be a bad trend in the firearms retail industry...bad customer service at the point of sale. Whether it be dealers at gun shows with a stick up their butt, or semi-retired workers at gun shops who look down at most of their customers and never worked customer service before, so have no idea how to gain customer service skills.

I've wiped places like DeGoff's in Richmond VA off of my list of places to shop due to their bad attitudes and complete reluctance to sell anything other than Remington and Browning rifles, basically acting as if all others are a joke.

The shop owner in the OP was way out of line. I can understand if there are many reasons he couldn't have something like that going on in his shop, but he needs to learn better ways to deal with it, or he needs to leave the retail sector. Anyone who thinks his behavior was acceptable would be very lucky to last at any well run retail establishment.

[gym]

A little off topic, but I know of 2 gun shops that are fairlly new and are doing great. Small personal service, low overhead, and they are in touch with what the customer wants. No haggling, the guy gave me the lowest price "i know the guns" and we were done in 15 minutes.
Just as a comparison, an old time shop I had called to see if a gun was in stock. Was just the typical crap we always talk about, 3 guys sitting smoking cigars, no one acknowledged me when I came in and stood at the counter for 5 minutes. All the lights were off, "i thought they were closed", until I looked through the gates. The Kimber I had gone to look at, was all marked up, "it looked like someone dropped it" I mean bad, and it was a new gun. I didn't even try haggling with the guy as I had got the price on the phone the day before. He knew nothing about makes and models, told me the new glocks won't be out for some time. He immediatlly went back to his cronies, instead of trying to sell me anything or try to order me what I wanted. They were renting guns for $30 dollars an hour. Is that the price now? All guns. A kid wanted to shoot a few, so I overheard the discussion. He could switch between 3, 9mm's they had. But dosen't that seem high? Of course range time and ammo were seperate.

[WillDe83]

I also think if you did buy it from the lady in the parking lot you owed the guy a finders fee.

Please explain why he would owe a finders fee to this guy? :confused:

[Sapper771]

Let me make sure I understand this:

1.) THE GUN SHOP OWNER PASSED ON BUYING THE RIFLE FROM THE LADY.

2.) SATURNO V ASKED THE LADY IF HE COULD SEE (NOT BUY!) THE RIFLE AS SHE WAS LEAVING.

3.) GUN SHOP OWNER COMES UNGLUED AND YELLS AT SATURNO V IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE SALES FLOOR.


SaturnoV,

IMO, the shop owner is completely in the wrong. I see that you did nothing wrong, Saturno V. You did not interupt the owner as he was speaking with lady about the rifle. You waited til the owner had ended his business with the woman. You did not attempt to purchase the rifle in the shop. You simply asked to see the rifle, in which I see no harm or foul.
The shop owner went out of bounds when he decided to yell at you. No competent businessman will yell or berate his customers....its bad business that can lead to permanently locked doors. The shop owner could have easily advised you that if you were to purchase the rifle from the lady, that you needed to do so off of the property. The shop owner could have also advised you and the lady as to why the transaction needed to occur off his property, then there would be no misunderstandings on either side. Again, there is no harm in doing so.

I have done the same thing that you did in many shops. I was never yelled at. Once, I was kindly reminded that I would have to leave the store to complete the transaction, and that was that. I was not yelled at or belittled.

If I was in your position, I would not return to that store. The owner evidently does not need you as a customer. If I was in the store when the owner yelled at you, I would also not come back to his shop. I have been in similar situations while in gun shops and I also no longer darken their doors. Your the customer, you have a choice on where to spend your money, and whether they like it or not, they need customers.

[PT1911]

Imagine the reaction of my friend (shop owner) who was in the middle of a sale when a (2nd)customer/browser butted in and offered a USED version of the same new gun that the (1st)customer was IN THE PROCESS of buying for 25 (?) dollars less...

<...Low Road removed...>

The guy was out of line, plain and simple.

[Erik M]

the owner can disallow any behavior on that property he wants.

This economy wont support owners that treat their customer base like that for long. I assume his time is short.

[Brass Rain]

Many people here are saying it was a rude thing for you to do. Chalk it up to inexperience but it sounds totally reasonable for you to have wanted to make an offer. Now it would be quite different if, in the middle of the person negotiating a price with the shop owner, you had popped up and said, "I'll give you (higher amount) for it!" Starting up a bidding war with a shop owner in his own shop is deplorable. But after he said he couldn't make an offer, it seems quite reasonable that you could speak up.

He had every right to tell you that you can't do it in his store, but repeatedly yelling and getting red in the face is darn over-the-top. You deserve an apology as much or more than he does.

[Art Eatman]

Two months of this? Seven pages? Way too much Low Road language. Enough.