Using a Trust for NFA purchases


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moredes
July 25, 2010, 05:52 PM
Please correct or add advice where appropriate... I wanna buy a suppressor, and avoid the CLEO. (I'm legal; I've got an approved Florida and MS CCW. My CLEO has a reputation for reluctance.) I already have a revocable trust in force.

I read all the links in post #2 here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=508939

from http://arizonagunlist.com/article.html , the 8th paragraph from the top states: Like a Corporation, there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer to a Revocable Trust. However, like a corporation, you must submit proof of the existence of the entity (be it a trust or corporation) with your Form 4. While many practitioners will advise the purchaser to simply submit a Certificate of Trust (typically a short one page notarized document confirming the existence of the trust and identifying the Trustee) as proof, the author recommends that you submit a full copy of the trust itself to avoid any questions from ATF as to the legitimacy and existence of the Trust. While some are uneasy about submitting a copy of their Trust with the Form 4, the author has had no issues with this practice. Additionally, as the Form 4 is essentially a tax document, the Form 4 and the documents accompanying it would be deemed private tax information between you and the ATF.

1) As I understand it, I can take a copy of my trust to a Class 3 dealer and submit the trust along with my tax stamp application and $200, in order to purchase the suppressor. This action would satisfy the "CLEO" signature portion and fingerprint/picture requirements. Is that correct?

2a) When I am approved, do I have to engrave the suppressor with the name of my trust?

2b) If engraving is required, will a Dremel do, or are "they" looking for something akin to "infallibly legible" laser-etching?

3) After I take possession of the suppressor, do I have to alter the Trust and list the suppressor there? It seems obvious, but I couldn't find that requirement, or I missed it.

4) What happens to the suppressor at the death of the surviving trustee? How would the 'executor' dispose the suppressor? (I know he, too, could also take ownership, but that would be highly unlikely.)

Thank you.

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rjrivero
July 25, 2010, 06:09 PM
1) Yes. You can't fingerprint a trust or a corp, so there are no fingerprints or pictures required.

2a) You only need to engrave it if you are building it. If you are using a 5230.4 (Form 4) then you don't need to engrave a thing. You're just transferring ownership from the Dealer to the trust. It was already engraved by the manufacturer.

2b) Not required. Don't do it. If you are building an NFA item, you need to engrave it with 1/16" and I believe .003 Deep. (I'm not POSITIVE on the depth. I'll check and edit the post.)

3.) Yes. It needs to be listed in the trust once it is obtained.

4.) I believe a Trust can be transferable. Please check with your lawyer.

GoingQuiet
July 25, 2010, 07:23 PM
Your depth is right - minimum depth is .003.

You can bring a copy of your trust to your SOT dealer or they can give you the paperwork yourself and you can mail it. The trust does indeed bypass the fingerprint, photo and CLEO signature requirements.

Are you buying on a form 4 or building on a form 1? As RJ said above - engraving is only required on Form 1 builds. Laser etching isn't exactly perfect because from what I understand some laser engravers DO meet the ATF requirement of .003 deep and some do not. Be careful.

I would revise the list of assets of the trust to reflect the new asset in the trust just on basis of good recordkeeping. If you ever do another NFA transfer, it is good practice to keep up to date asset schedules for when ATF reviews the trust.

Upon death you can do a Form 5 tax free transfer to whoever you designate a beneficiary.

moredes
July 25, 2010, 11:37 PM
Thank you, Gents! I won't engrave; I'll be purchasing on a Form 4. I guess it's time to find a dealer and choose a suppressor. I'm thinkin' AAC Cyclone for M1A, AR-10 and Rem 700.

Your advice is much appreciated.

GoingQuiet
July 25, 2010, 11:52 PM
BTW, where are you located?

moredes
July 26, 2010, 12:26 AM
I'm in Mississippi.

GoingQuiet
July 26, 2010, 10:31 PM
I checked the subguns recommended business list and there are no dealers listed in MS.

moredes
July 26, 2010, 11:48 PM
Thank you. There are a couple that are recommended by some local NFA shooters down here, but there sure aren't many.

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