[mohunter55]

Does anyone have a picture of a sig p238 with the barrel taken out and a round in the chamber?.....I'm curious about the chamber support and I've been unable to find a picture on google. Looks like the P3AT and the LCP have aweful chamber support at the 6 oclock position. I was wanted to see if the 238 is the same.

[kokapelli]

Does anyone have a picture of a sig p238 with the barrel taken out and a round in the chamber?.....I'm curious about the chamber support and I've been unable to find a picture on google. Looks like the P3AT and the LCP have aweful chamber support at the 6 oclock position. I was wanted to see if the 238 is the same.
The 380 cartridge is essentially a low pressure cartridge that apparently doesn't need that much support.

I shoot the higher pressure Buffalo Bore cartridge from my P-3AT, Micro Desert Eagle and P238 without any problem so don't think you really need to be concerned about the lack of support at the rear of the barrel.

In any case I will take a picture of the P238 barrel later after I get home from the range.

[mohunter55]

Thanks kokapelli, what im debating between the p238 and the ruger lcp. I'd much rather buy the lcp due to price, but if the p238 had more support I was probably going to go with it. I've been having a hard time deciding. Whichever one I get I want to feel safe reloading for.

[kokapelli]

Thanks kokapelli, what im debating between the p238 and the ruger lcp. I'd much rather buy the lcp due to price, but if the p238 had more support I was probably going to go with it. I've been having a hard time deciding. Whichever one I get I want to feel safe reloading for.
These are not great pictures but the best I could do with my camera. I used two different backgrounds.

http://omploader.org/vNTF5eg/238-1.jpg"]http://omploader.org/vNTF5eg/238-1.jpg

http://omploader.org/vNTF6Mg/238-3.jpg

If price is the determining factor I'm sure the LCP will work for you but IMO the P238 is well worth the difference in price.

[mohunter55]

looks like the p238 provides a full support, im going to have to take that into consideration. I was pretty sure i was going to go with the LCP until you posted that picture.

[AK103K]

I have both the P238 and the LCP. So far, the LCP has been the better deal, and by a long shot. I've got right around 700 rounds through the P238 now, and have had nothing but constant stoppages with it. The LCP has around 400 rounds through it now, and it hasnt skipped a beat since it came out of the box.

I've reloaded and shot rounds from both guns, and more than a couple of times now too, and no problems brass wise, other than the P238 chewing up the case mouth on about 5-10% of whats shot out of it. Bases are fine with both with no bulges due to case support.

[mohunter55]

AK103K, do you reload lead bullets for your 380 lcp? also, have you had any problems with smilies and bullet setback? I like the way both guns look. i lean ruger for the price and i lean sig for the supported chamber and the since it doesnt cause smilies. I would assume sig would fix a gun that doesnt run 100%.

[kokapelli]

AK103K, do you reload lead bullets for your 380 lcp? also, have you had any problems with smilies and bullet setback? I like the way both guns look. i lean ruger for the price and i lean sig for the supported chamber and the since it doesnt cause smilies. I would assume sig would fix a gun that doesnt run 100%.
There is a lot more than chamber support that the sig offers over the lcp.

The Sig has much less felt recoil, better sights, is much quicker at fllow up shots and has a much better trigger.

[AK103K]

I load 380's for a couple of P230's, the P238 (for now), and the LCP. Not for any one specifically. I do load both lead and jacketed bullets, but havent loaded lead for awhile now, so I havent shot them in either the P238 or LCP. I've only had the P238 a month now, and the LCP a couple of weeks.

When you say "smileys", what are you referring to? I always think of the "smileys" on the barrels of my SIG's, which the P238 now has a distinct one as well. The LCP shows no sign of that happening at all, but does show finish wear more around the chamber on the top and side of the barrel at the port.

At this point, for the money, I think the Ruger is the better deal. If the SIG hadnt been such aggravation up til now, I might have a little different opinion of it, but even if it worked 100%, it has a couple of issues (personal for me) I'm not real wild about. I'm not a SIG basher, the P238 is #18 for me. I think the problem with the P238 is, SIG chose the wrong platform to "copy", and would have done better to borrow from Seecamp in that respect. Better yet, come up with their own.

Right now, I dont think I'm going to bother to send it back to SIG, but I waver back and forth. What I'll probably do is, just trade it off on something else and take the hit. No real hurry though at this point, but who knows, it might be gone tomorrow. :)

[AK103K]

The Sig has much less felt recoil, better sights, is much quicker at fllow up shots and has a much better trigger.
The sights are better on the P238, I'll give you that, but then again, for this type pistol, they really are not needed either. I dont have any troubles making good hits with the LCP. SIG did kind of fake me out when I bought mine, as they have changed the profile of the "plain sights" (at least on the P238) to that of the usual SIG "three dot" night sights, and I thought that was what I was getting. Doom on me, I wasnt paying close enough attention I guess.

Recoil is kind of subjective, as is the trigger. I dont really see much if any difference in recoil between the two, and I have shot them side by side, same time, same ammo. At least there wasnt enough difference to draw my attention to it. The LCP's trigger is a nice DAO type trigger, but if youre not a DA shooter, you may not like it. I am a DA shooter, and dont have any problems with it. The SIG's trigger is very nice as well, and is your typical 1911 SA type trigger. Follow up shots with either are as fast as you can pull the trigger.

The P238 is a nice gun, I would just suggest if at all possible, you shoot it before you buy it. I know thats not always possible, but I would not buy another unless I could, and I'd want to put a good number of rounds through it first too. This is the first SIG I've owned, that didnt work 100% right out of the box, and these days, thats one requirement I tend to be a stickler about. I personally think "break ins" are BS.

Other than mine not being reliable, the one thing that annoys me the most, is how loud the safety is when swept off. Its as loud as my M1's, M1A's, and AK's. If I were to ever carry one, I'd probably carry it loaded with the hammer down, and just thumb cock it, as its a lot quieter, and takes about the same effort.

One thing with the Ruger, the $200+ you save in the difference in price between the two, you can buy a good bit of ammo/components to shoot with. If you can find it/them. :)

[kokapelli]

Is it possible AK103K purchased an early P238?

I can understand that having a bad experience with a pistol can make a person Leary of that model but my experience is just the oposite.

My P238 has been flawless and IMO the Sig is a significantly superior shooting pistol but the only way you can get what suits you best is to shoot them both.

[mohunter55]

the pictures here are a good example of what a smiley is: http://usrange.org/smf/index.php?topic=3049.0

[mohunter55]

i am about ready to just say hell with it, buy the ruger since i can afford it now and just do some of my own testing and see if my loads experience setback or any bellying. I think im over the bellying issue, i just need to make sure i use light loads, now i need to figure out about the smiley problem. If its the case where the smiley will never be able to cause enough setback to cause a serious increase of pressure i think im good...although i think they only way to know that is to buy one and do some testing.

[M2 Carbine]

My Ruger LCP has been flawless from the box and the P238 is nothing but trouble, even when it came back from SIG.

Too bad I can't swap the SIG for two Rugers.


I also have the Diamondback. It's a toss up which gun is worse, the DB or the SIG.

I shoot about 6-7 different loads, including lead RN reloads.

The Ruger is 100% reliable with everything and the SIG and DB are reliable with nothing.

[AK103K]

Is it possible AK103K purchased an early P238?
Not as far as I know, it was made/dated May 19, 2010, about a month before I bought it.

the pictures here are a good example of what a smiley is:
I havent encountered any of that so far. Then again, if it is happening, I have yet to see it, as the gun hasnt stopped running to cause me to look.

[mohunter55]

well, i am going to go with the ruger lcp. thanks everyone for the replys. my decision was ultimately determined by the below response from ruger after i emailed them asking about smileys:

Sturm Ruger and Co stands behind all of its products, and if you should experience any problems with your firearm please contact us. We have seen this, but it is not as wide spread as the forums lead people to believe. This firearm is not rated for +P ammunition; all other types of ammunition would be ok to fire.


So far i've been very happy with all my rugers, so i figure i might as well give this gun a try. At 300 bucks compared to 550, its hard to justify buying the p238 right now, maybe after I have had the lcp for a while i will take a look at getting the sig as well.

[Peter M. Eick]

AK103,

Send it back. My 238HD left for its second run to Exeter for repairs. I have a soft slide collapsing spring 238 so it is back again. It sounds like you have a bad extractor too.

Let me show you some of the 238 problems you might be seeing.

Soft slide problems. Look at the slide stop after only 200 rnds.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/238_1st_slide.jpg

This is the first slide, notice the peened metal.


http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/238_2nd_slide.jpg

This is the 2nd slide, notice the peened metal and the poor finish on the second one.


http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/238_extractor.jpg

The top extractor is a 238 extractor, the bottom is a colt gov 380 extractor. The colt has the extra bevel and works every time. Also note the rounding of the extractor on the 238. No wonder it slips off and jams.


http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/238_extractor_2.jpg

Same as above, but notice how the 238 extract has a negative angle on the clip. It just pops off the round in chamber.


http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/238_spring2.jpg

This is how the springs collapse.


http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/238_spring.jpg

This is how the springs compare to my gov 380 spring.

I am not bashing the 238. I want my HD to run because I need to park my Gov 380 as it is getting hard to get parts for. I just want the 238 to run and the only way for sig to get it working is if we keep sending them back till they figure out how to make it work once and for all.

[AK103K]

Thanks for the info Peter, but its too late. I traded it off Friday. Took a bit of a beating, but that was to be expected, and now I dont have to worry about dealing with it.

Good luck with yours.

[kokapelli]

AK103,

Send it back. My 238HD left for its second run to Exeter for repairs. I have a soft slide collapsing spring 238 so it is back again. It sounds like you have a bad extractor too.

This is how the springs collapse.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/238_spring2.jpg

I am not bashing the 238. I want my HD to run because I need to park my Gov 380 as it is getting hard to get parts for. I just want the 238 to run and the only way for sig to get it working is if we keep sending them back till they figure out how to make it work once and for all.
No wonder your spring collapsed, you have it installed backwards!
This seems to be happening frequently and is the operator's error that is causing failures.

I believe that a lot of the problems reported by P238 owners are because of this kind of operator error.

If you install the spring backwards like you have in your picture and the spring collapses the slide slamming back without recoil spring resistance is responsible for a lot of other damage too.

[Peter M. Eick]

You are correct, but it did come from the factory that way. I did not change it.

On my second one, I know it was installed correctly and it failed again in exactly the same way, just the collapsed end is in the other end.

[kokapelli]

You are correct, but it did come from the factory that way. I did not change it.

On my second one, I know it was installed correctly and it failed again in exactly the same way, just the collapsed end is in the other end.
Is your P238 one of the early production?

[Peter M. Eick]

No very recent. May of this year.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/2nd_spring.jpg

This is a picture of the second spring collapse. Note that you can tell it is the 2nd one by the different finish on the slide. Note that it is installed correctly and it still collapsed.

Also you can see the peening developing after just 4 boxes of ammo.

[kokapelli]

It's baffeling because I'm at about 400 rounds without a single problem.

I can only assume there is quality control problem with the P238.

Too bad because it's a really sweet shooting compact.

[AK103K]

I had around 700 through mine, and constant stoppages. I never noticed any battering, or spring damage though, but a fair amount of my brass was taking a beating.

I've seen in another posting, that SIG is now replacing slides with a revision thats supposedly larger and heavier, and apparently, they may be onto something from reports. Heres the link if youre interested....

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/2870099812

[Guns and more]

Is it possible AK103K purchased an early P238?
Yeah, but mine is too, and I haven't had a single problem. Knock on wood.

[kokapelli]

I had around 700 through mine, and constant stoppages. I never noticed any battering, or spring damage though, but a fair amount of my brass was taking a beating.

I've seen in another posting, that SIG is now replacing slides with a revision thats supposedly larger and heavier, and apparently, they may be onto something from reports. Heres the link if youre interested....

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/2870099812
I didn't know about that. Thanks for the link.

[AK103K]

Mine wasnt an "early" gun, it was made/dated May 19, 2010.

Perhaps they had some bad parts runs and due to their seeming popularity, have just been assembling them from stock on hand to get them out the door. My supposedly "newer" gun, came with one of the mags that was supposedly already being replaced with a newer version, which I did get from Top Gun Supply when I ordered a second mag. That wasnt the problem though, or at least for the gun I had, as the problems continued, regardless which mag was in the gun.

I'm sure at some point, they will get things worked out, or if they dont, just discontinue the line. After having one and going through the motions with it, I still think they chose the wrong gun to copy, and would have been better off going with a SIG design than someone elses. All the other SIG's I've owned, including the dreaded Mosquito, have been flawless. What went on with the P238, is pretty much what went on with all the other "small" 1911's I've owned. I no longer have any of the them either, and should have taken my own advice with the P238.

[Peter M. Eick]

My shooting buddy has a rainbow one and he has zero problems with it.

The issue seems to be localized to the 238 HD and the problms I have documented. I am not the only one with issues so I just keep sending it back.

It seems when you get it working, they are exceptionally reliable and easy to use. I am just waiting for mine to get to that stage.

[valorius]

Thanks kokapelli, what im debating between the p238 and the ruger lcp. I'd much rather buy the lcp due to price, but if the p238 had more support I was probably going to go with it. I've been having a hard time deciding. Whichever one I get I want to feel safe reloading for.
I've shot +P corbon DPX out of my LCP no problem. Not a lot of it, but enough to verify operation and zero the crimson trace laser. Probably about 60rds worth. It had no ill effect whatsoever on my LCP.

The Sig 238 has had a LOT of reports of problems, i would be very leery in buying one of those.

There is a lot more than chamber support that the sig offers over the lcp.

The Sig has much less felt recoil, better sights, is much quicker at fllow up shots and has a much better trigger.
Having handled and shot both guns, i think the exact opposite on most counts. The Sig does have better sights, but the LCP is very reliable, and has a sweet DAO trigger. The Sig has had so many -user- reports of reliability problems, i just could never rely on one for self defense.

[JellyJar]

Could most of the problems be due to bad recoil springs? If so can you get after market springs like from Wolf?

[valorius]

Looks like the slide and the extractors are problematic as well, based on the pix in this thread.

Ruger LCP's work great- why even take the chance on a 238 for $200 more? Just buy an LCP and put a Crimson Trace on it...

[kokapelli]

Looks like the slide and the extractors are problematic as well, based on the pix in this thread.

Ruger LCP's work great- why even take the chance on a 238 for $200 more? Just buy an LCP and put a Crimson Trace on it...
Try shooting a P238 and you will undestand.

[HexHead]

After having one and going through the motions with it, I still think they chose the wrong gun to copy, and would have been better off going with a SIG design than someone elses. All the other SIG's I've owned, including the dreaded Mosquito, have been flawless. What went on with the P238, is pretty much what went on with all the other "small" 1911's I've owned. I no longer have any of the them either, and should have taken my own advice with the P238.


Which gun are you saying they shouldn't have copied? The Colt Mustang or the 1911? The Mustang/ 238 shares nothing of the 1911 design other than a similar cosmetic outward appearance. Problems other 3" 1911s have to do with their smaller size and have little to do with the 238. Two totally different pistols.

[valorius]

Try shooting a P238 and you will undestand.
I have.

[AK103K]

Try shooting a P238 and you will undestand.
I'm not sure what youre trying to say here. I have, and both shoot equally well, when the P238 works. If youre "target" shooting for groups, the P238 may do a little better, but if youre shooting realistically, I doubt youd be able to tell which gun shot which target.

The LCP is a little more user friendly too, since it requires less manipulation to get it going, and its also a lot more discrete, assuming your using the safety on the P238. If not, then you need to either charge it, or thumb cock it to get it in action. The LCP simply requires you pull the trigger.

Which gun are you saying they shouldn't have copied? The Colt Mustang or the 1911? The Mustang/ 238 shares nothing of the 1911 design other than a similar cosmetic outward appearance. Problems other 3" 1911s have to do with their smaller size and have little to do with the 238. Two totally different pistols.
Your choice. They may not be "exact" copies, but they are close enough that both suffer from many of the same malfunctions and stoppages, and much more so than most other designs.

[kokapelli]

I'm not sure what youre trying to say here. I have, and both shoot equally well, when the P238 works. If youre "target" shooting for groups, the P238 may do a little better, but if youre shooting realistically, I doubt youd be able to tell which gun shot which target.

The LCP is a little more user friendly too, since it requires less manipulation to get it going, and its also a lot more discrete, assuming your using the safety on the P238. If not, then you need to either charge it, or thumb cock it to get it in action. The LCP simply requires you pull the trigger.


Your choice. They may not be "exact" copies, but they are close enough that both suffer from many of the same malfunctions and stoppages, and much more so than most other designs.
I guess it's it's an individual thing but for me the Sig is better in every way and as far as the safety, if your use to a 1911 the safety is in no way a disadvantage and the Sigs single action trigger easily makes up for any lag someone might have disengaging the Sig's safety.

As for accuracy, the Sig's sights alone make the pistol much more accurate not to mention the difference in felt recoil with follow up shots.

Some people may find the LCP works as well for them, but certainly not nearly as well for me.:)

[AK103K]

My annoyance with the SIG's safety, was the noise it generates. Its VERY and unnecessarily loud (people complain about the noise an AK's safety makes, and my P238's safety was louder than any of my AK's), and not at all "discreet", even if you try to put it off quietly.

While the SIG's sights are better for slow fire, target type shooting, comparing my targets with both guns, when shot realistically, were very similar, and if I go round them up (some are still in the back of my car somewhere if you want to see them), I doubt you'd be able to tell which gun fired which. Realistically too, at the ranges these guns are typically used, sights really dont much matter. I shoot my Seecamps, which have no sights at all, just as well as the P238 or the LCP.

I guess recoil is subjective, and depends on the individual. I really didnt notice one was more than the other in that department, but I'm not really recoil sensitive either. I concentrate on shooting the target and not what the gun is doing, as long as its doing what its supposed to be doing.


Dont get me wrong here, except for the safety, which can be worked around, I liked the P238 when it seemed like it was working, but the fact that it wasnt is why its no longer here. I'm not a SIG hater either, far from it, the P238 was SIG #18 for me. It just didnt perform like the other 17.

[kokapelli]

I don't find the safety noisy and I guess we have to agree to disagree on the importance of the sights and recoil.

Maybe had the recoil spring not been installed incorrectly you would feel completely different about the gun.:)

[AK103K]

My spring wasnt installed "incorrectly", from the factory or otherwise, and never looked anything like Peters, even after 700 rounds. It also didnt work with either of the Wolff replacements I tried. Didnt try SIG's, because they never had any to try.

My P238's safety was LOUD. If you know the sound of an M1, M14, or AK's safety being taken off, you'll have a very good idea what my P238's sounded like. You could easily hear it swept off across a large room with the TV on, and you could easily hear it swept off when in a pocket. If yours isnt, then either something was wrong with mine, and at this point, I dont have a problem believing that, or something is wrong with yours, and somehow I think you'll have a problem believing that. :)


All of this is now really a just a moot point for me as far as the P238 goes, and really doesnt matter. I no longer have it, and dont plan on buying another, so I'll leave you that have them, working or otherwise, to your fun or pain. For me, I'll stay with my Seecamps, and see how it goes with the LCP.

[Guns and more]

Try shooting a P238 and you will understand.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
I do.
Mild recoil, easy slide to rack, looks good, slide locks back on last round, mine has night sights, safety in perfect position (IMO), slide release in perfect position (IMO)
I'll stay with my Seecamps
Now I'd like one of those too. But due to it's small size the recoil is snappy at best, the slide doesn't lock back on the last round (It doesn't have to because the gun stovepipes on the last round) and recoil springs must be replaced fairly often. Finicky about ammo. And it's a $1000 gun!
Be honest, you don't look forward to shooting the Seecamp at the range.