Bulllet run out


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30mag
August 1, 2010, 11:02 PM
How do you calculate bullet run out?
I don't have a dang clue how deep to seat the bullets for my rifle. It's a bolt action, and I know that I can seat them deep enough to be off the rifling.

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dakotasin
August 1, 2010, 11:34 PM
run out is measure with a dial indicator. check out the rcbs 'casemaster' if you want to see how rcbs does it.

seat your bullets as long as you can and gently put it in your chamber and try to close the bolt. if the bolt won't close, seat deeper, and try again. repeat the process until you can 1- close the bolt and 2- use the magazine.

you could also buy a loading manual and it will tell you what the company used for a seating depth.

Ed Gallop
August 2, 2010, 07:04 AM
If I don't have a model manual I use the OAL in a reloading manual. I bought several boxes of Wolf Gold 7.62x54r and after reloading with the OAL from a reloading manual they were too long to fit in the same box. They seated well in the rifle though. Factory amo specks can be quite different than manual specs. If you enter the caliber and OAL in Google there will be lots of good reference links.

Afy
August 2, 2010, 01:33 PM
Do not worry about run out, neck turning, weight sorting etc until you can consistently hold groups in the high tweens at the bare minimum consistently.
Buy powder, primers, bullets and good brass instead.

As for seating depth, if you're not loading via the magazine, and loading one at a time its not going to make a difference. However there is an implication on pressure.

GW Staar
August 2, 2010, 05:48 PM
Adding to what's been said, if you're loading with a Rock Chucker, Lee, Hornady, etc. single station press with shell holders, loosen the spring clip that holds the holder to the press ram so that there's some give (IOW, not a snap-tight fit).

That way as the shell and ram are eased up into the sizer or bullet seating die, it will be able to move just enough to center it in the hole and not be forced to one side or the other.

Result....less runout.

On an RCBS, or Dillon Progressive, with removable die heads, that is exactly why the heads fit a tad loosely. Same principle.

Offfhand
August 2, 2010, 06:21 PM
In early May I traveled to the NRA convention in Charlotte, NC. It was quite an experience and I recommend that everyone who owns a gun go to similar conventions whenever they are within travel distance. I attended several of the workshops, which were all worthwhile with recognized experts discussing their respective fields. At one of the meetings there was a discussion of internet gun and shooting forums and one of the speakers writes for the NRA magazines. He said he was collecting the frequently incorrect, often ludicrous and even dangerous gun information being spread on the internet and was writing an article about it. He requested that the audience help collect such items and he would incorporate them in his article. Which I am doing, and am forwarding all the above comments on this thread. He said he will not use real names or screen names, so don't worry. But look for yourselves in upcoming article.

dakotasin
August 2, 2010, 08:39 PM
finally! i'll become famous somewhere else besides my own mind!

well, i think my dog likes me... don't think my wife likes me very much, but the kids don't seem to mind too much if i'm around...

many of the reloading forums do a pretty good job of policing themselves. there are some bad ideas posted from time to time, but if you just let the thread run its course for an hour or two any unsafe practices are pointed out by the members...

i can see how your expert would like to find this info, though... w/ printed material sales slumping, it will be decent method for keeping sales moving a little. i receive several gun mags per month, but as subscriptions run out, i'm not renewing. this was driven home to me today when i got my shiny new 'hunting' mag...

WNTFW
August 2, 2010, 09:18 PM
Offhand,
At the risk of you punking me out in front of the entire shooting world:
"what is specifically wrong with All of The above". I see at least 2 post with absolutely nothing wrong. Granted I see bad info on the net also. It would be a service to the OP to point out the dangerous info.

Dakotasin,
Your dog doesn't like you, he needs you. There is a difference. I know you are heartbroken. You thought you had uncoditional love.

What a bummer. That is why I am not into pets.

WNTFW
August 2, 2010, 09:21 PM
30mag,
What rifle? The reason I ask is I have at least 4 rifle I can't get close to the rifling on.

dakotasin
August 2, 2010, 11:08 PM
Your dog doesn't like you, he needs you. There is a difference.

well... just a ray of sunshine for me, eh??

and you're right in that if there is bad information posted, especially on a reloading forum, it should be pointed out and let the poster defend it or retract it. blindly throwing darts leaves everybody guessing, and the information superhighway becomes an information stop... and then i'll have to renew my subscriptions...

WNTFW
August 3, 2010, 12:17 AM
Dakotasin,
I just don't see the point of making such a broad statement without at least pointing what was so unsafe either. I saw nothing wrong with your post. Sometimes I have to read things twice to understand what a post is saying. After having done that I still don't see the issue.

PS: I don't have a dog. If I did would prolly try to sell him and buy more reloading supplies. Problem is I would just waste the money based on bad advice I get here. If it is any consolation my neighbors dogs don't like me. They don't dislike me, I'm just not their favorite. I ain't trying to win their love either.

GW Staar
August 3, 2010, 12:42 AM
In early May I traveled to the NRA convention in Charlotte, NC. It was quite an experience and I recommend that everyone who owns a gun go to similar conventions whenever they are within travel distance. I attended several of the workshops, which were all worthwhile with recognized experts discussing their respective fields. At one of the meetings there was a discussion of internet gun and shooting forums and one of the speakers writes for the NRA magazines. He said he was collecting the frequently incorrect, often ludicrous and even dangerous gun information being spread on the internet and was writing an article about it. He requested that the audience help collect such items and he would incorporate them in his article. Which I am doing, and am forwarding all the above comments on this thread. He said he will not use real names or screen names, so don't worry. But look for yourselves in upcoming article.
Please send this one too, so he can see what a nice guy you are. If you cared about anyone on this forum but yourself, you'd share the vast superior knowledge you've obviously been blessed with, and help correct the ludicrous and dangerous gun information you see, instead of rolling your eyes and keeping it to yourself.

Offfhanded posted this message in the Hand Primer thread as well. (forum name fits)
So I felt justified to repeat my answer here as well.

WNTFW
August 3, 2010, 09:28 AM
GW Starr,
I found your post in particular to be safe. Nothing to go wrong there. Just observations about equip & runout. Lee also designs some float into some of their stuff.

Kentucky_Rifleman
August 3, 2010, 10:01 AM
Offhand,

I've been reloading for over three decades, and all of the responses here seem reasonable to me. I've never tried removing the shell holder retention clip, but I fail to see how this could hurt anything. Worst-case scenario, the shell holder won't stay put.

30mag,

As for run-out, getting your seating depth tuned to your individual rifle can improve both accuracy and velocity, but as Afy mentioned, seating depth DOES affect pressure, and can do so significantly.

Also, be prepared to test fire various seating depths to see what your rifle prefers. Ideally, the bullet should be seated either just off the rifling or just barely touching the rifling, but I have two rifles that hold significantly tighter groups with bullets seated to near factory specs. Both rifles like the bullets well out of the rifling.

In my Model 700 25-06, I lose about 150 fps in velocity, but move my groups from just over MOA to about 3/4 MOA. It makes no sense to me, but that's what that particular rifle likes.

I have a Model 600 Mohawk in .222 that functions the same way.

Joyce Hornady's adage, "Every rifle is a law unto itself" holds true in my experience.

KR

GW Staar
August 3, 2010, 12:44 PM
Offhand,

I've been reloading for over three decades, and all of the responses here seem reasonable to me. I've never tried removing the shell holder retention clip, but I fail to see how this could hurt anything. Worst-case scenario, the shell holder won't stay put.

Sorry if I didn't communicate well enough...I didn't say to remove the retention clip, but only loosen it so that there is some play...which allows the die to move the base of the shell holder slightly to center it. A tight lock means the ram, shellholder and die have to be exactly concentric or the resizing and seating operations force the case a few thousandths off center and causes that amount of run-out.

I've been reloading for 4 decades...I learned that one from an "expert" who wrote an article for American Rifleman at least 38 years ago, on "Reducing Runout". Maybe he wasn't as smart as the "NRA writer" who wants to poke fun of gun forums.

My guess is the other way around. I expect his coming defaming article will lose membership for the NRA...and that's really productive for the cause!

Perhaps someone ought to send this whole thread to the editor...

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