Remington 870 Witness Protection


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FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 12:23 PM
I recently shot a Mossberg 500 and to save my shoulder because it was just fun shooting, I didn't put the buttstock in my shoulder but held it out like a 870 Witness Protection and it didn't hurt at all. So now I would like to build my own Witness Protection 870 and would like to know what 870 I should use as a base for it. Since I'm not 21 yet i'm gonna have to build my own. I've heard that a police model is what I should look at but I don't know exactly what to look for. Anyone have any advice? Anyone have their own that they could post a picture of it?

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CoRoMo
August 2, 2010, 01:31 PM
I would start with a Pawnshop Special in the form of good ol' used 20ga. Wingmaster. It if comes with a ribbed barrel, you could sell that on Gunbroker or trade it for one that ain't, and then chop. Just keep an eye out on Gunbroker and AuctionArms and you could end up with an old bird gun for less than the tax stamp will cost.

I had a bid on this one, but it got away from me now.
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9837858&oh=216543

PTK
August 2, 2010, 01:50 PM
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=82020&d=1217227706

The bottom one. ;)


FWIW, it's a pretty ordinary Express 870 model, 12ga.

Nick5182
August 2, 2010, 01:56 PM
Just thinking about an 870 like that makes me sad we can't own Class III/ NFA in my state :(

JTH
August 2, 2010, 01:58 PM
I just thought I'd throw this pic out of my unaltered L.E. Remington 870 Wingmaster 12 ga.
JT

rfurtkamp
August 2, 2010, 03:23 PM
I recently shot a Mossberg 500 and to save my shoulder because it was just fun shooting, I didn't put the buttstock in my shoulder but held it out like a 870 Witness Protection and it didn't hurt at all.


To be blunt (and I love NFA toys more than I should), you need to invest in some training on how to shoot a shotgun if you're having issues with hurting your shoulder with standard loads on a Mossberg 500 before you look at tax stamps.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 03:42 PM
It didn't really hurt that bad just that it was something I have never tried it before and I was thinking it would be similar to a witness protection.

I heard that it was best to use a police 870, whats the difference between a Express and a Police?

rfurtkamp
August 2, 2010, 04:05 PM
Express is the el-cheapo of the Remington line, older ones it's mostly cosmetic, new ones it's cast parts, plastic, etc.

Police has generally better parts (or you can cannibalize an older Wingmaster).

Since you're destroying the resale value of the gun, and it's not going to get run through a lot of courses of fire (and well, 870 parts aren't exactly hard to replace), might as well gut an Express or a used model.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 04:18 PM
How much to you think it would cost to replace the internals? What parts should I replace?

@PTK is that magazine on your express shorter than normal?

PTK
August 2, 2010, 04:50 PM
Nope, it's a 4+1, with a 12.5" barrel.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 04:58 PM
Do some 870's have different intergrated mag sizes or the same? Some seem bigger. Not counting the +'s

CoRoMo
August 2, 2010, 05:17 PM
You mean capacity? Yes, they have different tubes that hold anywhere from 3,4 on up to about 8 rounds.

content
August 2, 2010, 05:22 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // Found this barrel for $75

Had a PGO on a Mossberg combo 12ga. once but prefer this set up.

1976, Remington Wingmaster, 12ga. 7+1 ,with 18 3/4" VR, large brass bead barrel
125249

The Witness Protection set up would be the perfect truck/motel gun.
Good luck finding what works for you.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 05:22 PM
well i'm talking about the part of the magazine that is attached to the reciever, not the extensions that can be screwed off.

I found it more comfortable to shoot a shotgun by holding it out away from my shoulder. It'll be more of a novelty than anything but i'll still use it as a bedside shotgun. I plan on having it set up similar to PTK's.

CoRoMo
August 2, 2010, 05:41 PM
Well it's really simple then.


You buy a used WM like this one: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=181990091
Acquire the $200 tax stamp.
Chop the barrel off at the end of the magazine cap.
Cut the stock down to a bird's head grip.
Enjoy. Paint it if you like.


It shouldn't cost more than $400-$500 to make one; gun, tax stamp, hacksaw, and all.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 05:54 PM
Are there any parts that I should replace with some more durable ones? Are there any I should get for replacements?

PTK
August 2, 2010, 06:58 PM
Nothing comes to mind. I strongly suggest you get the bird's head grip - way better than any other kind I've tried. :)

FWIW, I have less than $450 into that gun, furniture, used 870, stamp and all the sling bits and pieces, also a rifled 12.5" rifle sighted barrel and the original stock... :D

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 07:06 PM
The bird's head grip is a must, be easier on my wrists and alot better looking.

EDIT: Oh yeah you should make more videos with that 870.

PTK
August 2, 2010, 07:37 PM
I don't have access to my firearms, currently. Certain living situations have drawbacks. :(

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 08:24 PM
Is it a SBR or a AOW? Do you have a direct link to a Synthetic Birds Head?

PTK
August 2, 2010, 09:19 PM
SBS, and no. Just search MidwayUSA.com, I'm not your personal Google. ;)

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 2, 2010, 09:49 PM
Alright, I always hope everyone is haha.

AcceptableUserName
August 2, 2010, 11:01 PM
you need to worry more about the process before you worry about how to do it. however my suggestion is :

pawnshop special 12 ga wingmaster
a hogue tamer pistol grip and hogue rubber forend
barrel cut to magazine tube and recrowned
pattern reduced recoil loads and decide which is best

the end

The birdshead speedfeeds probably feel good - but the Hogue feels good to me and if I want to lean it up against a nightstand I still can.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 3, 2010, 09:26 AM
One thing I thought of is that a AOW doesn't need the ATF to know what state it is in. Would it be possible to by a stripped virgin reciever?

CoRoMo
August 3, 2010, 09:58 AM
That's one way to go, yes. The problem will be finding one that is truly Factory New. You will have far fewer options to choose from. They are out there, and you'd probably spend the same for it as you would a used WM gun, but you'd then save $195 on the stamp, but you'd spend that money on all the other parts you'd need.

This one, for example, is $135 shipped, plus transfer. (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=182462474) The seller says this receiver cannot legally be made into an AOW, but I have no idea why not if it is "new from the factory" as he's claiming. Anyway, you'd then have to get all the internals, stocks, barrel, etc. You might be able to do it for about the same cost when all said and done, and the only thing you'd gain is the AOW flexibility over SBS status that you mentioned. Well, that and you'd have a brand new firearm that you built rather than a used one.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 3, 2010, 10:05 AM
From what I have heard is that the registration fee is still $200 to register it. I'm not 21 so I can't buy a NFA from a Dealer yet so I have to make my own. That reciever could have been a shotgun but had its guts and all stripped and all to resell.

CoRoMo
August 3, 2010, 10:35 AM
Oh, that's right. The stamp will still be $200 because you're manufacturing. My bad.

Regarding that seller's description, there are contradictions in it...
870 SHOTGUN
RECEIVER

NEW FROM THE FACTORY



Up on the block here is a brand spanking new Remington 870 receiver. ...

These receivers are shotguns-it is illegal to change them into AOW's.

AFAIK, the receivers are firearms, but are neither long guns nor handguns... yet.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 3, 2010, 12:58 PM
What if he just bought a new one and stripped it? Since I bought it without a stock and there is no proof of a buttstock ever being on it, is it AOW'able? What if the seller claims it had one?

I've read some crazy things on Gunbroker before like a Navy SEAL's 92 and a .40 SIG being sold.

CoRoMo
August 3, 2010, 02:29 PM
What if he just bought a new one and stripped it?
Then I'd say he's misrepresenting the item, because that would be a used/like new item IMO. If you were to ask THAT seller if it was a virgin receiver and he proposed that it is, and is totally factory new, and was never mated to a shoulder stock or barrel, I don't think his line about it being a 'shotgun - it is illegal to change them into AOW's' holds water. If he tells you that it was at one time a long gun, it will always and forever be a long gun. You can turn it into a short barrel long gun, but it won't ever be an AOW.

Some of this is just 'letter of the law' stuff. If I buy a virgin receiver and put together a long gun, but then strip it all back down and sell it to you as a receiver only, you then turn it into an AOW, the ATF never had any record of my long gun build, just that it was a virgin receiver from Remington, you ended up with it and AOW'd it. If you know or have reason to believe it was a long gun, you really have to go with that info.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 7, 2010, 07:30 PM
Which one is of better quality? The Express? Or FWIW the Wingmaster?

PTK
August 8, 2010, 12:36 AM
Generally, Wingmaster 870s are nicer.

aryfrosty
August 8, 2010, 01:31 AM
I'm not an expert...I do own a Mossberg/Cobray Rogue conversion in 12 ga. The unit is a factory made AOW and as such it cannot have a Birdshead grip legally, or a shoulder stock. AOWs require only a $5.00 stamp and the Feds DO require knowlege of which state it is in. It also requires their permission before it is moved from the state of registry, temporarily or permanently. I am about to move to Alabama where they may not legally be owned so I am hoping their laws change before the house here in NH sells or I have a hard decision to make.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 8, 2010, 12:46 PM
The bird's head grip is a pistol grip though, I've seen factory AOWs with the bird's head. AOWs don't require BATF's knowledge of what state its in, same with suppressors. SBSs, SBRs, and machines guns require notification.

PTK
August 8, 2010, 02:19 PM
Yeah, you're wrong in a few places. Good thing you prefaced that with not being an expert. ;)

Bird's head grip is a-okay on an AOW, as are front grips as well. Stocks are the only no-go. No 5320.20 (interstate travel form for NFA) is needed for an AOW, either.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 9, 2010, 12:44 PM
I'm trying to find a Pistol Gripped 870 that was factory. Does anyone know where Mark Serbu gets his to make his Super Shortys?

PTK
August 9, 2010, 02:59 PM
Probably from the Remington LE catalog. ;)

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 9, 2010, 03:33 PM
Could a regular FFL order one? Or would I have to go through a Class III? Any idea how much they cost?

PTK
August 9, 2010, 11:58 PM
GOOOOOOGLLLLEEEEEE. Seriously. I know very little beyond what I've stated, and Google is your friend. Go find out. :P

washambala
August 10, 2010, 03:37 AM
So basically if you buy a standard (sholder stock, midlength barrel) shotgun and chop it and PG it then it MUst be registered as a SBS because it was once a full length shotgun. but if you buy one from the factory with a PG and chop the barrel then it can be registered as an AOW because its now considered a smooth bore handgun?

rfurtkamp
August 10, 2010, 05:49 AM
So basically if you buy a standard (sholder stock, midlength barrel) shotgun and chop it and PG it then it MUst be registered as a SBS because it was once a full length shotgun. but if you buy one from the factory with a PG and chop the barrel then it can be registered as an AOW because its now considered a smooth bore handgun?


Welcome to our asinine NFA laws, yes, you're correct.

Highpower1
August 17, 2010, 08:06 AM
This is my cutdown SBS. It's a factory SBS Mossberg 590. I totally agree with PTK, get a birdshead grip for the crappy original one. Here's a couple pictures of mine.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 22, 2011, 03:06 PM
I found a Remington Sportsman 12 for $175 at a gunshop, is this gun good enough to SBS? Also are all the parts compatible with the actual 870? From what I've heard its the predecessor of the Express model and looks like an 870 in everyway that I could see.

PTK
January 23, 2011, 09:36 AM
No and no. For $175, I can think of three gun stores in NH that have used 870P 12ga shotguns as trade-ins. DO NOT buy anything but a labeled 870 in good condition or better, in my opinion. :)

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 23, 2011, 03:50 PM
Got a link?

PTK
January 24, 2011, 12:49 PM
Nope, I can't recall the name, either. When I get back into MT from business, I will look through my records - there are QUITE a few good 870s to be had for under $200.

CoRoMo
January 24, 2011, 02:35 PM
Less than an hour to grab a hold of this Wingmaster. It is perfect and ready for your bid.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212198306

How 'bout a 20ga? A little tamer on the kick.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212521818

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 24, 2011, 07:18 PM
Whats the OAL of your 870 PTK?

dprice3844444
March 4, 2011, 07:13 PM
original witness protection shotguns from wilson arms co of brunswick ga on receivers he obtained directly from remington are a 5 buck xfer and are registererd as aow.if you send a shotgun in,it's a 200 xfer registered as a short barrelled shotgun.check midway or brownells for the buttstock,front sling holder etc.also put a 6 round shell holder on the side.i enjoy both but witness protection shotgus,they are sweet.there is an outfit in tampa florida that makes a copy of wilsons executive protection 3 shot 870

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