[MagKnightX]

Are black-powder firearms subject to the NFA? Such as, is it legal to own a nock gun/volley gun (7-barreled gun, fires all 7 at once) without a tax transfer? Same with shoulder-or-hip-stocked blunderbusses with barrels under 16/18 inches and OALs under 26"? By legal, I mean "without a ten-year free trip to Club Fed or instant death by BATF agents."

[Hkmp5sd]

Blackpowder firearms, inluding newly manufactured replicas, are not regulated by the NFA.

§ 5845. Definitions
For the purpose of this chapter -

(a) Firearm. - The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

(g) Antique firearm. - The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[MagKnightX]

It says "other than machine guns" which is a problem for the nock gun, because any gun that can fire more than one shot per trigger pull is considered a machine gun.

Also, would things like nine-pounders be regulated as destructive devices if you didn't have explosive shot?

[Poodleshooter]

Cannons can't be DD's, however spherical or case shot with a bursting charge would be a DD and need the $200 tax. Better to stick with solid shot.
A sawed of blackpowder version of a coach gun would be interesting.

[Jim K]

The law exempts antique firearms, then says that an antique is one made before or during 1898. It also exempts replicas of antiques that do not use use fixed ammunition. So assuming an original Nock gun, and an original blunderbuss, there would be no problem. There would also be no problem if they guns did not fire fixed ammunition and were replicas of antiques.

But a replica of an 1873 Trapdoor Springfield is not an antique. Note that nowhere in the law does the term "black powder" come in, and nowhere is the type of powder part of the definitions. An antique may use smokeless powder (and many do), while a modern cartridge gun may use black powder. The type of powder used is not relevant.

There could be a problem with the term "replica". In MD, antique percussion revolvers are not regulated, nor are replicas. But the Ruger Old Army is, since it is not a replica of any antique. I think that under some circumstances, like a coach gun made in the basement, "replica" might not hold unless it was a close copy of an antique.

Of course, terms like "replica" and "antique" do not appear in laws concerning concealed carry or crime. A holdup with an antique flintlock is armed robbery; a concealed Nock gun (OK, maybe a BIG holster) is a concealed weapon.

IMHO, the exemptions for replicas of antiques may not last long. The killer will be the conversion cylinders that allow a percussion revolver to be bought by mail by anyone, then converted to a cartridge revolver just by changing cylinders. The makers of the cylinders know full well that they are selling some (many? most?) of those cylinders to juveniles who cannot legally buy a cartridge gun. If the law is changed, I hope we are smart enough to blame the people who are willing to evade the law to make money.

Jim

[carpettbaggerr]

The cylinders are just parts and and it is the person using them who is "manufacturing" a firearm. No different than machining the cylinder to accept cartridges. If these cylinders are being used to evade the laws, I would expect them to be regulated, not the revolvers. There are many places they can be used legally. If they are being used illegally, the only people to blame are those who are breaking the law, not the manufacturers.

[Jim K]

Hi, Carpetbagger,

I agree to a point. But as I see it, there is really no purpose for those cylinders except to evade the laws regulating cartridge handguns by enabling a cartridge gun to be made from an unregulated percussion gun. So kids can buy percussion revolvers by mail, then convert them to cartridge guns.

I wouldn't care if they just want to have fun, but we know some will make trouble. And that gets us all in trouble, because the response will be to regulate percussion guns. I happen to know that this is an area that BATF and the antis are going after. They hate the idea that any kind of gun is "unregulated" and "unlicensed" and "unaccountable". It is just another area where the antis don't have to look for an area to go after - we provide them with one and brag about it.

Jim

[Harry Tuttle]

At some point, the MMMBradys will "discover" that colonial war assault rifles,
can be bought at Walmart, by 16 year olds on their school lunch break.

These weapons fired "the shot heard round the world" and the children must be saved.

[cookhj]

the evil "blackpowder assault sniper rifles" give off a cloud of smoke that allows the "good person turned evil by the hideous gun" to get away in a "puff of smoke." we must ban them immediately. :D

[confed sailor]

I personally feel that CCC's should come under some form of regulation since they are essentially "drop in" parts allowing a minor to buy a BP Revolver and convert it with no machine work needed. thats not a good thing.

now i dont see this as becoming a problem, its still cheaper at this point for a felon to buy an illegal pistol then to go through the rigamarole of buying a BP Revol. and then buying the conversion cylinder. also with most of the models ive seen they are not fast to reload after 6 shots, requiring a second cylinder. most criminals would prefer to get a stolen glock or someother piece of plastic crap with 15+ round magazines.

there should be some form of regulation, im not sure what sort or what standards because i dont belive in owning assault rifles myself, and i havent read the USC to figure out the convoluted Assault weapons ban. but arent "drop in" sears and trigger groups and other things of the like for making full auto guns. arent these a controlled item?

only thing i can think of is to treat them as a "firearm"(using the aforementioned defintions), . purchased like a "firearm" since it is a part designed to make a "antique/replica firearm" into a "firearm"

but i can see some people viewing this as a slippery slope to controlling many other "drop in" gun parts.

any legislation on this needs to be written VERY VERY carefully so not to open us up to further controls

[Hkmp5sd]

im not sure what sort or what standards because i dont belive in owning assault rifles myself

Interesting viewpoint. Can you explain why one of these is a legal post-ban semi-automatic rifle and the other is an illegal post-ban semi-automatic assault weapon? Do you support banning guns solely on their appearance?
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa2x14m4my.jpg
http://www.bushmaster.com/le/LE-16-A3-Carbine-Blue.jpg
but arent "drop in" sears and trigger groups and other things of the like for making full auto guns. arent these a controlled item?
Yes, they are.

[confed sailor]

well to be honest, no i cant tell the difference. ive never worried about the difference, perhaps when i used the the term assault rifle, i did not express my veiw clearly. im not surprised the term "assault rifle" has quite a bit of stigma attached to it.

now belive me i am the last to feel that a gun should be banned due to its appearance or colour, (im no racist i dont hate black guns:D) however, i do feel that most modern subcaliber military longarms are not useful for my purposes, nor do i find them astheticaly pleasing to me. therefore i have no desire to purchase one.

and that leads to why i am professing ignorance on certain technicalities of laws that do not apply to anything i own, or to be frank, will ever own.

my question was with the problem at hand, CCC's. all i wanted was the views of people who do own "assault rifles" and do know the laws better than i.

i am a firm beliver in the RKBA, i will never surrender my guns, nor will i ever register my guns. but i just dont see a need for a modern subcaliber military longarm in my gunsafe

i dont want to waste forum space on a divergant debate, if you want to discuss this with me further please email me at clarkj1@citadel.edu

[Hkmp5sd]

No problem not wanting to own them. :) It's just something that should be decided by the individual, not the government. The entire 1994 Semiautomatic Assault Weapon ban prohibits a broad range of firearms based on looks, such as the difference between the firearms above. One has a flash suppressor, the other a muzzle break. One has a bayonet lug, the other doesn't. One has a retractable stock, the other is pinned in one position. Otherwise, they are the exact same rifle. But one is legal and one is not.

[cookhj]

oh no, not another citadel guy! hey, y'all played a hell of a game on nov. 15th. i hear rumors that there won't be a military classic of the south next year. i hope they aren't true!

[MagKnightX]

Oh god. You guys have managed to turn a question as to whether or not Nock guns are legal into an anti-AW-ban thread. I personally hate the AWB, but this is BP.

Back on topic, I'm still not sure if Nock guns are legal.

[Hkmp5sd]

But I believe the Nock gun is exempt from NFA rules.

The definition of "firearm" as used by the NFA lists shotguns <18"/26", rifles <16"/26", suppressors, machineguns, DDs and AOWs.

It then defines two classes that are exempt from NFA regulations. The first is any "antique" firearm. The second is any device, excluding MGs and DDs, that the Director of ATF decides are exempt.

The Act then defines an "antique" firearm. As part of that definition, it states that any "matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof," are antiques.

So, by definition, an "antique" firearm cannot be a machinegun or any other NFA weapon.

[carpettbaggerr]

Antiques and reproductions aren't regulated under federal law. Check your state laws though. Some states regulate, others don't.

[MagKnightX]

Wait, if they are unregulated by federal law, then does that mean no age requirement for purchase, by FEDERAL law, at the least?

[confed sailor]

for without them The Citadel would have no one to pick on.

yah y'all did play one hell of a game, id say it was the best of the year. and the weather was actually nice. ask anyone who went last year about the mud bowl.

I had a feeling that when i mentioned AWB id get one hell of a response, and though i dislike little black rifles, and fantastic plastic pistols. Ihave read oleg volk's site, and to be honest it makes alot of sense.

by the way my dear mr. cook, what class are you?

John Clark '05

[cookhj]

oh, i was there last year. it was HORRIBLE. but that too was a good game. we always tend to beat eachother by a matter of a few points each year.

i'm class of 2001. i stole y'all's jeep a few years back. i think there's a few people there that still know me.

[carpettbaggerr]

Wait, if they are unregulated by federal law, then does that mean no age requirement for purchase, by FEDERAL law, at the least?

That's exactly what it means. That's Jim Keenan's concern with the cartridge conversion cylinders. These cylinders are replacement parts and can be ordered through the mail. A minor could buy a percussion revolver and a CCC and assemble (manufacture actually) a handgun which works with modern cartridges.

[Hkmp5sd]

A minor (or anyone else), can order an auto-sear through the mail and convert his dad's AR to full auto too. Both acts are already illegal. We definately do not want the government to start regulating the individual parts of firearms (more than they already do).

As with most things related to firearms, it is useless to make the huge number of legal gun owners jump through hoops to buy something in the off chance of stopping someone that might buy the item for illegal purposes.

[4v50 Gary]

The Nock Volley Gun is a muzzle-loader and cannot be made to take cartridges without major engineering. It enjoys the same legalty as the "webfoot" three barrel percussion pistol. One word of caution, you must be a real "he-man" to wield one of those things. Heavy is an understatement.

BTW, if you want to see a Nock Volley Gun, there's an early model displayed at the Charleston SC City Museum.

[Harry Tuttle]

The gun was made by James Wilson 1779 and named after Nock. Nock was contracted to manufacture the gun and 635 examples were sold to the Royal Navy. A flintlock mechanism fired through a vent that led to the central chamber. Firing cause dignition in the central chamber and resulting flash passed through and ignited the other 6 so all 7 fired more or less simultaneously. The gun was intended for the fighting tops of warships to fire down on the deck of the enemy vessel as it closed alongside. However recoil was so strong and the weapon so difficult to control that a smaller lighter version had to be produced. This made it shorter ranging but still effective as Admiral Howe's fleet showed in relief of Gibraltar in 1782. Nevertheless, it was still unpopular because of the danger of a ship's sails and rigging catching fire from the muzzle blast.


Overall length 37in, barrel length 20in, calibre 0.52in.

http://www.southessex.co.uk/weapons/nock.htm

it looks like you can build one:
http://www.therifleshoppe.com/(789).htm