[lawboy]

You hear it all the time, how the 45ACP has a "rainbow-like" trajectory. How past 25 yards it is hard to hit anything with it due to hold over problems. How 10mm is sooooo much easier to hit with at 100 yards than 45ACP.
I own many 1911s in 45ACP. 3-inch. 3.5-inch. 4.25-inch. 5-inch. 6-inch. I have fired them all extensively at 100 yards. I owned one 4-inch 10mm revolver for several years and have fired several 10mm autos at 100 yards. My personal conclusion: You can hit a man-size target easily with ANY OF THEM.

To wit, I have several steel plate targets that are 12-inch-diameter rounds. With my 6-inch 1911 45ACP I can zero the gun at 20 yards to strike three inches above the front sight. With this zero, I can hold 12 o'clock on a 12-inch plate at 10 yards and consistently hit the plate about 2 inches above the 6 o'clock position. Consistently as in 80+ hits out of 100 shots.
With any of my 3-inch guns, which have fixed sights, I have to hold about 5 inches over the top of the plate but with this hold I can consistently hit the plate. Consistently means 4-6 hits out of an 8-shot magazine.

With the 10mm revolver, zeroed precisely like the 6-inch 45, I can hold 12 o'clock on the plate and hit consistently about slightly below center plate.

Now, clearly the 10mm is shooting flatter than the 45ACP. BUT, not that much flatter, AND, the 45 loads are reduced while the 10mm loads were full loads. My main point is that either cartridge will put shots on a human torso without difficulty at 100 yards, so why all the denegration of the 45's abilities at long range?

[Cards81fan]

While I agree with you from a practical perspective, the .45 does drop at distances when compared to other rounds. This is due to the physics of a heavier bullet moving at a slower velocity.

According to Speer, here are the numbers on their Gold Dot cartridges, as packaged:


Velocity at
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
45 Auto 230gr 890 845 805
40 S&W 180gr 1025 956 902
9mm +P 124g 1220 1085 996

Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards
25 Yards 50 yards 75 yards 100 yards
45 Auto 230gr 0.0 -2.0 -7.1 -15.3
40 S&W 180gr 0.0 -1.3 -5.0 -11.2
9mm +P 124g 0.0 -0.8 -3.3 -8.0


I could not find statistics on a 10mm, but I am sure it would be somewhere bewteen the 9mm and .40

I was fairly surprised at the differences, actually, with over half a foot difference at 100 yards for the.45 versus the 9mm. But on the whole, I agree with you. No practical handgun-using civilian would engage a target at 50 or 100 yards; for the vast majority of engagements, there is no real-world difference.

[lawboy]

That is exactly half of my point -- at normal distances there is no practical difference. Now, the other half of my point is that even at long range, if you know your gun, there is no significant difference in the ability to hit threat targets (these are defensive calibers after all) between 45 and 10mm. I mean, if I can hit a 12-inch plate effectively, a human being should also be a doable target with either cartridge, right?

[CoRoMo]

Ever watch hickok45 hit the 230yard gong with his pistols?:evil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2cnop15VA8
What's the bullet drop on that?

[Cycletroll]

Yeah, but there is a plus side to that heavier bullet: it loses far less energy at distance too. Compare a 230gr at 100 yards to 180gr .40 or 125gr 9mm. The .45 still packs a wallop. Doesn't slow down nearly as fast.

[Walkalong]

You can hit a man-size target easily with ANY OF THEM.
Quite true. Smaller targets than that actually.

[CoRoMo]

Looks like we've talked about this before:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6087119

Originally Posted by tipoc
The figures here are taken from Bob Forker's book:

Bullet drop at 200 yards from a 10mm CCI TMJ 200 gr. bullet is -72.1". Mid range trajectory is 19.1".

For a 200 gr. 45acp load from CCI drop at 200 yds. is -87.1". Mid range trajectory is 23.4".

[The Lone Haranguer]

"Rainbow-" like trajectory is probably overstating it a little, but it is a matter of physics that slow, heavy, blunt bullets do not shoot as flat as fast light ones. Practically, though, this matters little, until you get out past ~100 yards.

[Publius1688]

+1 to cycletroll.
I'll take the heavier bullet any day.

[browningguy]

I'd say twice the drop at just about every range is getting close to "rainbow trajectory". But that's just me, and I even like the .45.

[gun guy]

um yea the 45 auto shoots a lil flatter than a mortar round, at 100 meters the 45 has more arc than a rainbow. the 9mm is alot flatter thru 50 meters but its falling off in energy by 100 meters. thats why i prefer the .357 magnum. if i have to engage targets at 100 meters with a handgun, it will do it. there is (or was) for years an old gong at the 400 meter mark at the range. i been ringing that gong for 20 years with my model 29 smith with a 4in bbl. many times i've seen a guy with a scope sighted rifle, burn a box of bullets trying to hit that gong, on the average i can hit it 4 out of 6. nothing wrong with learning long range pistol shots, even the old cap n ball 1860 army was know to make shots between 85-100 meters. many good shots, with scope sighted thompson centers can make some serious long range shots. a 308 barrel and a good rest. 600 meters is very possible in the right hands.

[gearhead]

Keep in mind, weight has NO effect on how fast the bullet falls.

Remember, a 230 gr. .45 and a 115 gr. 9mm both will hit the ground at the same time because they fall at the same rate. It's just a matter of how far from the muzzle the bullet gets in a given amount of time, since the drop is dependent purely on time.

[Magnumite]

Taking into consideration standard weight and velocity cartridges for the 10mm and 45 ACP, the 10mm has a considerably better trajectory. The two cartridges aren't even in the same class. The 10mm is a young 41 Magnum for all intents and purposes.

You stated you are sighted in 3 inches high at 20 yards with a reduced load (assume 230gr@800 fps) with the 45 ACP. That makes your 45 ACP pistols zero'd at better than 75 yards. That's about a 6" drop at 100 yards which is about what you indicate. Your midrange will be about 4" high. A lighter bullet at lower velocity would yield even a less desirable (more rainbow) trajectory.

A 10mm sighted the same way (180 gr@1200 fps) is actually over 3" high at 100 yards. Assuming you are stiking low at 100 yards as you state, you're less than 1.4" high at 20 yards and only have a midrange value of 1.6".

I agree a man sized target is readily hit out to 100 yards and even further with a 45 ACP. And judging from how you sight in your guns, you are using those adjustments with the trajectory to get your hits, which are very good, by the way. You are familiar with your load and guns. As it should be.

The differences really stand out when you are using a 25 or 50 yard zero, which is where the 45's and 10's are usually zero'd. Using a 50 yard zero for both guns and the same ammo as above:

Caliber 25 yard 50 yard 100 yard
45 ACP + 1.4" -0- -13.8"
10 mm + 0.4" -0- - 6.5"

No contest.

[Magnumite]

"Remember, a 230 gr. .45 and a 115 gr. 9mm both will hit the ground at the same time because they fall at the same rate. "

This assumes both bullets begin traveling at the same distance from and parallel to the ground. Upward trajectories and the different velocities will alter time of flight.

[Snowdog]

True, if dropped from the same distance, the slug from a 9mm and .45acp will land at the same time. However when fired out of a barrel, sectional density begins to play a part in how rapidly a bullet will decelerate (which affects "bullet drop", especially at longer ranges).

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Well, a 45-70 Government bullet drops fast as well. It drops just as quickly as a 22-250, a 220 swift and a .223, to name a few.

Now, the difference in time it takes to drop in relation to how many FPS the bullet is traveling is another story for another blog.

[Magnumite]

You're right, sectional density will effect rate of deceleration (thus trajectory). But if two projectiles with different sectional densities are fired parallel to the ground at the same height, they will both drop at the same rate. Gravity effects in the vertical plane, not the horizontal.

Trajectory which is not horizontal to the ground, muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient are factors which do effect time of flight and drop.

[nalioth]

If you watch the Jamie and Adam segment of Mythbusters - Knock your socks off (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mythbusters%20knock%20your%20socks%20off&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1), they're testing the myth of "Do a simultaneously dropped and fired bullets hit the ground at the same time?"

They use a 1911 for the testing, and the results are interesting (as is usual with Mythbusters).

[lawboy]

Great discussion guys and gals. Just an interesting area of study to me. A lot of good points made. I have learned a thing or two! Thanks.

[Greg528iT]

What losers. They have a FLGR in their 45. :neener:

[JohnBT]

"What is this gibberish about 45ACP not shooting flat? "

A 15.3" drop at 100 yards isn't anywhere near what I would call flat.

[jonboynumba1]

I routinely plink at 25 and 50 yards with all of my handguns....and once in a while at 100....enough i can hit reasonably well with em...at 50 yards I have a high degree of certainty of hiting or scarring the living hell out of anything the size of a breadbox or up. I correct more for the .45 but I also oddly feel more confident with it...probably because I have shot .45 a LONG time like that...and sometimes I over-correct with my 9mm a few rounds after switching. I agree any of the "big 3" 9,40,.45 or 10mm or .357 sig or whatever will hit well in a decent gun with practice out well past the imaginary "25 yard limit" most people impose on handgun shooting. But I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone else at our range shooting from the 50 yard benches on the pistol range....let alone on the 100 yard rifle range! (I used to bust rocks with my single six .22 off a sandbag rest for fun while my rifles cooled...great fun!....remington thunderbolts seemed to really bust em good after we re-rocked and expanded the embankment at 100 yards! I'm sure THAT was rainbow like to...but it hit surprisingly well (more than it missed) I don't know why more folks don't plink like that...it's fun...the only folks I ever see at the 100 yard line are the TC guys and the super blackhawk handload guys....they like to stretch em out it seems.

[Justin Holder]

Knowing how high to aim over the target to make a hit doesn't make a load "flat" shooting.

If you know your trajectory you can make hits at 500 yards with a 308 and a 45-70. But that doesn't mean the 45-70 shoots as flat as the 308.

[jolly roger]

I once shot an entire magazine from a S&W 4506 into the "chest" of a B27 target by holding at the "neck" of the silhouette at 125 yards so 15" inch drop is about right. But no matter how you cut it if you hold right on a bad guy at 100 yards with a 45 it'll hurt and can be done quite readily.

[Walkalong]

I shoot clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm with a .45 Colt load that starts life out at around 650 FPS. Probably on crutches at 100 yards. I have to aim about 18" high. No big deal.

The old timers threw large slow moving chunks of lead at game with excellent results. They just had to be good at judging distance.

[ElectrikKoolAid]

A bullet dropped from your hand and a bullet fired (parallel to the ground) will both hit the ground at the same time.

The vertical pull of gravity is the same no matter what the horizontal speed of the object is. Likewise, a small bullet and a large bullet dropped from your hand will both hit the ground at the same time, as the acceleration of gravity acts on all objects equally.

The 9mm, moving from the muzzle almost 30% faster than a .45, covers the distance to the target in less time. This gives gravity less time to perform downward movement, hence less "drop".

The faster a bullet, the "flatter" it's trajectory for a given distance.

[Ben86]

People tend to over state the drop of a .45 bullet. It's more than other, lighter calibers, but not by much. The important thing is that you know how much it drops at X range and know how to compensate for it accordingly.

[Gryffydd]

Caliber 25 yard 50 yard 100 yard
45 ACP + 1.4" -0- -13.8"
10 mm + 0.4" -0- - 6.5"

No contest.
WOW! 7 WHOLE INCHES!! :rolleyes:

The point is, there is no practical difference between the two given the typical application of such pistols.

If 100 yard squirrel hunting with defensive pistol calibers is high on your priority list that 7" might mean something. Otherwise it's a moot point.

[tipoc]

Usually what folks mean, the practical part anyway, when they say that a certain round is "a nice flat shooting round" is that you won't have to adjust your sights or "hold over" the target in order to hit it for out to a longer distance. And when they say something is "rainbow like" they are exaggerating some but indicating that they have to adjust their sights some to hit what they want to at a longer distance like 100 yards.

There are commonly two ways to measure, or illustrate the arc a round makes in it's flight, and they all arc some.

One way is called the bullet drop. This figures like this...If you stood on top of a ladder and held a gun perfectly horizontal to the plane of the earth, and you were standing in a vacuum, and you shot that gun and the round traveled at a certain speed how far would the bullet fall horizontally by the time it reached a certain distance. That figure would be the bullet drop.

So the bullet drop at 100 yards for a 125 grain Cor Bon load for the 38 Super traveling at 1350 fps would be - 11.4 inches.

For a 230 gr. Hornady TAP round from a 45acp going at 950 fps from the muzzle the drop at 100 yards would be -20.4.

So you'd want to adjust some for the 9 " difference between the two.

tipoc

[tipoc]

I mentioned two ways and the second way is sometimes more useful to see the arc. The second way is the Mid Range Trajectory. It works like this...In the actual world we don't hold our guns flat and parallel to the face of the earth we aim them upward a bit and at longer distances actually lob in our rounds, like mini artillery. If your gun is zeroed in to hit where you want at, say 100 yards for hunting at 50 yards it will always be shooting high. How high is the mid range trajectory.

So our 230 gr. Hornady TAP 45acp round moving at 950 fps in a gun sighted in for 100 yards will be 6." above the point of impact and line of sight at 50 yards.

Our 125 gr. .38 Super load from Cor-Bon at it's 1350 fps and sighted in for 100 yards will be 3.1" high at 50 yards.

2.9" isn't much of a rainbow of difference. But if we use a slower 45 acp round like 230 gr. at 850 fps. it's 6.6" high at 50 yards.

A faster 115 gr. load for the .38 Super from Cor-Bon at 1425 fps would be 2.9" high at 50 yards.

So that is the "flat shooting" .38 Super and the "rainbow like" .45acp.

A lot of these terms like "rainbow like" come to us from rifle shooting and rounds like the 45-70 and bigger.

These particular figures I've taken from Bob Forker's useful book "Ammo and Ballistics".

tipoc

[Snowdog]

If you stood on top of a ladder and held a gun perfectly horizontal to the plane of the earth, and you were standing in a vacuum...

:D I know you weren't trying to be funny, but I certainly couldn't get the thought of firing a pistol from a ladder in a vacuum out of my head after reading that.

However, you explained it well. Good info there, thanks!

[oldfool]

yeah, weight has nothing to do with it, velocity does
but I am mostly waiting for Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith to jump on in this one :)

[bds]

I certainly couldn't get the thought of firing a pistol from a ladder in a vacuum out of my head after reading that.
Was watching a movie once where they had a gun fight in the vacuum of space. The bullet would travel in a straight line without loss of velocity until it countered a gravitation pull. Imagine sniping at the surface of the moon from a space craft and hitting the target at the same velocity and trajectory as point of aim.

[Cards81fan]

WOW! 7 WHOLE INCHES!! :rolleyes:

The point is, there is no practical difference between the two given the typical application of such pistols.

If 100 yard squirrel hunting with defensive pistol calibers is high on your priority list that 7" might mean something. Otherwise it's a moot point.
You wouldn't believe how fierce Oklahoma's fox squirrels can be...


:D

[Magnumite]

"Quote:
Caliber 25 yard 50 yard 100 yard
45 ACP + 1.4" -0- -13.8"
10 mm + 0.4" -0- - 6.5"

No contest.

WOW! 7 WHOLE INCHES!!

The point is, there is no practical difference between the two given the typical application of such pistols."

There is a big difference. Very practical difference if you actually do practical shooting at 100 yards or meters, depending on the game. A Hunter's Pistol metallic silhouette ram has a body approximately 8 inches deep. So with these settings, using the 10mm, you'd have to hold half a body over to make consistant hits. With the 45, you'd have to hold 1 1/2 bodies over the ram. Now your sights are covering up the target - how are you going to see it to align the sights well enough to hit it? Okay, you say, hold the front sight up over rear just a bit. Repeatable...not much with consistency...unless you have gold bars or such on it, then with light at some angles, you lose the definition on the bars because of glare.

So if you mean practical at 100 yards to mean a four foot x 18" effective target, with the 45 - it is still the difference between a chest shot and a gut shot, or a gut shot and a thigh hit or a miss between the legs - depending where you were in your wobble zone when the shot broke.

In combat you use what you have to make it work. The OP likes shooting at longer ranges. No problem, he likes the longer ranges and has adjusted his sights to accomodate the longer ranges...he is matching his equipment to the application. But with standard POA/POI settings, you're always holding over way out there. That is where the ballistics come into play.

[Gryffydd]

There is a big difference.

I'm sorry, it's just not a big practical difference when you have to go for something nobody really does with either of those calibers to prove the difference. I honestly couldn't care less about the trajectory of either of those rounds past 25-50 yards. If I want to shoot farther than that I'll use one of my revolvers--or you know...a rifle.

[Magnumite]

The statement was made there was no practical difference between those two calibers. The OP does it with those calibers. 2 times the drop is not a big difference? And the issue wasn't using another caliber, it was using those calibers. It is such a big difference when we shoot long range, many of us make sight adjustments so we have the sight picture we need...because using hold over/under doesn't work well even with practical size targets. So if a gun were used without adjustable sights, a flatter shooting gun would mean less hold over/under to make hits. Just the width of your front sight on these guns covers 4 to 20 inches at 100 yards, dependent on front sight width and distance from the shooter's eye.

I don't take my 45 1911's much past 50 meters, I don't see it as a practical gun past that. But I do shoot long range...out to 200 meters with more appropriate calibers and guns and I can tell you trajectory is a big deal.

[KodiakBeer]

Not a good argument because you could simply shoot 165 or 180 grain 45 acp's and effectively remove any difference in bullet drop. And, you'd do so with lessened recoil and faster follow up shots.

[JohnBT]

"when you have to go for something nobody really does"

I shoot handguns at 100 yards and I'm a nobody? What are you talking about?

John

[Magnumite]

lighter weight bullets typically shoot lower, increasing the need forhold over. If one were doing that, it's simpler to make sight adjustments.

John, he said I was nobody, too. LOL

[Thorgrim]

I can understand the argument that a flatter-shooting cartridge increases practical accuracy for most shooters because it makes misjudging range less critical. When I varmint hunted I mostly shot a .257 Weatherby because civilian-available rangefinders weren't very good at the time, and neither was I concerning ranging in that deceptively rolling country we hunted. The hot .257 was very forgiving if I misjudged the range a bit.

At the same time, a man shooting a "blooper" who knows his gun, sights, and can estimate range well can consistently outshoot a man with a flat-shooting cartridge who doesn't possess those skills. I'm not taking sides here - but look up "Billy Dixon Adobe Walls" sometime and draw your own conclusions; many of the accounts agree that he shot a Cheyenne warrior off his horse at over 1,500 yards with a buffalo rifle using open sights ... and he called the shot before he took it.

And it doesn't make any difference whether your pistol shoots flat or not if it isn't accurate, I'm with Townsend Whelen on that topic.

[Gryffydd]

I shoot handguns at 100 yards and I'm a nobody? What are you talking about?

I never said anything about shooting handguns at 100 yards. What are you talking about?

What I was referring to was shooting at 8" targets with fixed-sight automatic pistols chambered in basically service calibers. And by "nobody" I obviously meant the hyperbolic "nobody" which is in fact "almost nobody", as there are a lot of people that go around doing things that "nobody" does, like shooting ground hogs with 50 BMGs, or hunting squirrel with a .375 H&H.

One might as well argue about the difference in trajectory between a 35 Remington and a 30-30 at 800 yards when fired from an open-sighted lever gun.

[JohnBT]

You quoted a post about shooting at 100 yards and replied to it.

You appeared to be referencing the 100 yard range when you went from "past 25-50 yards" to the statement about using a rifle for "farther than that."

"I honestly couldn't care less about the trajectory of either of those rounds past 25-50 yards. If I want to shoot farther than that I'll use one of my revolvers--or you know...a rifle."

That's what I'm talking about. Remember now?

[Gryffydd]

Hey John, I'm not sure you realize this, but a revolver IS a handgun. So my post that you quoted says quite clearly that I wasn't referring to "handguns at 100 yards." Yes, the post that I quoted did talk about shooting handguns at 100 yards. Specifically, 8" tall targets, and given the context, 8" tall targets being shot with fixed sight service pistols.