Scientific Cane Damage


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Puncha
August 7, 2010, 02:40 AM
Using accelerometers, ballistics gel bodies and high speed cameras, the people who produce the "deadliest warrior" series at spike seem to be able to derive an indication of the damage potential of various hand weapons. But to those here who are familiar with hardwood oak and hickory canes, exactly how much damage would the following moves do if they were delivered by your average 175lb individual with average strength and skill?

i)A hard thrust to the ribs using the both hands done "rifle and bayonet" style?
ii)Holding the cane with both hands near the crook and swinging it down hard on an attacker's head?
iii)Using the crook in lieu of a rifle's butt and attempting to perform a butt-stoke to the Jaw with both hands?
iv)Using one hand and holding the cane near the crook while delivering a strike to an attacker's bare shin?
v) any other striking cane moves you can think of......

will any bones be broken?

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Oyeboten
August 7, 2010, 03:39 AM
I would think "Yes", a Jaw, Ribs could be broken by this, or possibly even a Skull could be fractured by this.

The larger diameter the Cane, the better, of course ( within practical limits of say, around one inch or a little better would probably be ideal, ) for those outcomes to be realized.


I used to carry two foot worth of old Double Bitted Axe Handle section....tight ring 1st Growth Hickory, 1-1/2 inch by about 7/8ths I suppose...ovoid in section.


You just heft that or swing it lightly into your palm, and, you know you could crack a Skull or break an Arm or a Jaw no problem.

More a swinging item than a Jabbing one though with it's length being on the short side.

nalioth
August 7, 2010, 04:04 AM
will any bones be broken? You're kidding, right?

You will definitely break bones using a cane in this manner, if not cause death in some instances.

bikerdoc
August 7, 2010, 08:22 AM
Yes.

And with some training you wont even break a sweat

MikeJackmin
August 7, 2010, 09:04 AM
I'm guessing it depends a lot upon the specific cane. For swinging blows, a cane made of a hard, heavy material with a narrow profile on the striking surface can do a lot of damage. A lighter, rounder cane, not so much. The effectiveness of jabs will also vary depending on the material and diameter of the cane's tip.

hso
August 7, 2010, 10:21 AM
Yes
Yes
Yes
No, too big a bone to be assured of a break.

Puncha
August 7, 2010, 11:20 AM
.....so if using the cane purely as a tool for self defense via blunt force trauma, would this be a good choice?

http://www.canemasters.com/custom-street-walking-cane-p-298.html

or would this....

http://www.canemasters.com/tear-drop-walking-cane-p-301.html

be better? I notice that the first is probably heavier and stouter than the second but the second offers the advantage of force concentration via the tear drop design.

Which one would you choose?

hso
August 7, 2010, 11:37 AM
Hardly any difference for the average user since they don't have the control.

MutinousDoug
August 8, 2010, 09:55 PM
Before you spend money on an exotic "tactical" cane, check out your local or internet farm and ranch store for a "stock cane" they are hickory, 5'0" or so long and much more stout than any drug store fare. Cut to suitable length and open up the crook a little bit (cut off the end an inch or so) if you plan on swinging it.
HTH

hso
August 8, 2010, 10:10 PM
Since Puncha isn't in the US he won't be able to take our advice to run down to the farm supply, but everyone else should be sure to sort out whether the stock canes you're looking at are oak or hickory since sometime the feed store may be carrying oak stock canes.

Deltaboy
August 8, 2010, 10:25 PM
My homemade cane with the solid Brass Mule Harnness Head on it has cracked two mean dogs skulls so far. :evil:

CWL
August 11, 2010, 04:49 AM
Puncha, you have access to all manner of "exotic" hardwoods in SE Asia that we'd drool over here in the USA. If local cane retailers don't carry anything suitable, then find a lumber supplier that will lathe or hand-shape (recommend 6-8 sided)a cane for you, certainly cheap enough in your part of the world.

LHRGunslinger
August 11, 2010, 05:00 AM
The Irish developed an entire martial art around a very specific cane/walking stick known as a Shillelagh. It is just as much a gentlemans weapon as it is a thugs weapon. It was known to damn near tear limbs off not just break bones.

Ah the joys of being 6'2 240 and being able to walk down the street with a bludgeon in hand.

lloveless
August 11, 2010, 05:07 PM
Yep, a good stock cane of hickory is a fine thing to walk/wield.
ll

scythefwd
August 14, 2010, 04:41 AM
A good black locust cane will do some real damage. I have a little bit of training, so this is not typical. Using a 5 ft, instead of a 3 ft, staff, I was able to snap or crack the staff pretty consistently using momentum and a sudden stop (overhead swing, like you would see with a sword coming down from shoulder to opposite hip). I would be holding the back 1/3rd of the staff, and the break would almost always occur a few inches in front of my front hand. I had to move to a purple heart, laminated cocobolo, or a mystery wood (we think it might have been Japanese oak) staff to keep me from breaking them. Anything as light as maple would only last about a month of me working out with it..

That said, a 3ft - 3.5ft long traditional cane with a hook end will make one hell of a club in the right wood. A cocobolo cane would have some good weight and density for the 1-1.25 inches I would expect to see in a cane. With an overhead clubbing action, there are few bones I wouldn't expect it to break. The shin being one of them. With proper technique, a backhand type swing to the shin (assuming body twist, and general movement of the body towards the victim) might cause a fracture, it might not. The person probably won't be standing on that leg though. You could possibly drive the leg right out from under them.

i)A hard thrust to the ribs using the both hands done "rifle and bayonet" style?
- Use the crook with your back hand and you can easily break ribs (I've seen 1 inch boards broken with a rolled up newspaper in the same fashion)

ii)Holding the cane with both hands near the crook and swinging it down hard on an attacker's head?
- You'll cave his head in if you make contact, you'll recover quicker and be more agile if you do it one handed with similar results (open head wound with a possible cracked skull)

iii)Using the crook in lieu of a rifle's butt and attempting to perform a butt-stoke to the Jaw with both hands?
- Either end will do, but it will have less effect than a swing. You'll only get that end moving a little quicker than a punch. Your hand is protected, but if you can reach your opponent with a punch, he can reach you. Keep your distance if you can, that is why you have that 3 ft stick.

iv)Using one hand and holding the cane near the crook while delivering a strike to an attacker's bare shin?
- I've seen baseball bats broken on shins and the person walked away. Granted, he worked up to that over years of abuse to his shins. You'll most likely cause one hell of a knot. You might take the leg out from under him. You might break your cane. If you break your cane.. see item #1... Your cane doesn't stop being a weapon because it was unexpectedly shortened.

v) any other striking cane moves you can think of......
- learn basic fencing techniques. Your cane is a bludgeon, not a precision instrument. Use your back and core muscles to primarily pull the cane through the strike, not your arm muscles.

Digger Odell
August 15, 2010, 12:05 AM
I remember my grandfather & my dad both carrying what was called an auction cane when they went to horse auctions. It was about 3/8 to 1/2 inch dia. & very flexible. They would use it to check various animals in different ways. It would never break any bones but sure could raise one heck of a welt. The crooked handle could also cause a lot of trouble to someone on the wrong end when used knowingly.

Carne Frio
August 15, 2010, 01:12 AM
When I lived in New Mexico, a neighbor of mine
had one made out of 5/8th rebar, bent just like
a regular cane, painted light brown with a rubber
tip. He carried when walking to fend off dogs and
other critters and was very happy with it.

Deltaboy
August 15, 2010, 11:40 PM
When I lived in New Mexico, a neighbor of mine
had one made out of 5/8th rebar, bent just like
a regular cane, painted light brown with a rubber
tip. He carried when walking to fend off dogs and
other critters and was very happy with it.
Now that would be a TOUGH Cane.

Puncha
August 25, 2010, 11:15 AM
Dear guys,

Canemasters is touting their pure hickory heart canes as being tougher then their other oak or "normal" hickory canes. Is this true? Are the canes from the core of the tree really tougher?

More importantly, will these core canes be denser and have more damage potential?

Or should I just get a cane made out of ironwood?

Deltaboy
August 28, 2010, 04:23 PM
Canemasters does a lot of Cold Steel Hype.

NMPOPS
August 29, 2010, 01:55 AM
I would recommend against head strike unless its the only target you have. cane use would be very similar to police baton use. The head is always a "no strike" zone. Solar plexas jabs, leg and arm strikes, collar bone all good areas and will put someone down without permanent damage, Jabs to the top of the instep are good also.

scythefwd
August 29, 2010, 02:39 AM
Puncha - Any hickory cane will do serious damage if you want it to. If you want an ironwood cane, get one. I'd look into a ippe, eppe, ippey, hell... I don't know how it's spelled cane. Pretty, hard, and it just feels nice in the hand.

hso
August 29, 2010, 08:23 AM
Hardness and density are not the only characteristics needed for a cane. It needs a long flexible grain that resists breaking when struck against something hard. You don't want something that will snap.

bikerdoc
August 29, 2010, 08:48 AM
Not to be a wise guy, cause nobody likes to get into it more than me IF I have to, but lets think about the other side of the coin. Sure you can carry a real hard cane and have a lot of training, but maybe we should be more aware of how to avoid trouble.

Just my .02 from a different perspective

shockwave
August 29, 2010, 09:32 AM
From what I've seen at their website, pretty much any Canemasters cane would get the job done. I don't have one, so I can't verify that, but their products look good.

i)A hard thrust to the ribs using the both hands done "rifle and bayonet" style?

That's a difficult question to answer. Let's say you have a target set up, like a punching bag. You're going to try this technique on the bag.

Style 1: You jab the stick forward with both arms at the bag.

Style 2: You step or lean forward and as your weight moves toward the target you torque your hips and wind up from the waist, then twist forward sharply and let the wave travel up your spine, through your shoulders and out your arms, adding muscle at the last moment and deliver all your weight and power through the end of the stick.

The effect on the target will be substantially different between the two types of strike. It isn't an either/or situation, either.

Depending on how much of Style 2 you can execute, maybe just the weight transfer, or maybe only the hip action, you can greatly enhance the force of your strike.

This thinking applies to all the other strikes you mention.

scythefwd
August 30, 2010, 12:05 AM
hso - True. I was thinking of a ippy (spelling) bow that I have that is laminated. It flexes quite a bit but will hold a 270 lb man leaning on it (and in center, other hand at end, bow at 45 degrees and supporting almost full weight).

BHP FAN
August 30, 2010, 05:41 AM
a rattan walking stick is almost impossible to break.

scythefwd
August 30, 2010, 05:45 AM
BHP - if it's the same rattan that I have used in bos, it's not going to last more than a few heavy strikes. They make bos out of rattan to keep them light... The problem is when you borrow one of those bos to demonstrate how to put power into a hit they kinda splinter apart. I could be thinking of something different though.

shockwave
August 30, 2010, 07:10 AM
I could be thinking of something different though.

You may be thinking of Chinese waxwood, which splinters like that. Hardened rattan is pretty much indestructible.

glistam
August 30, 2010, 09:52 AM
Since the original aim of this thread was scientific study of stick-impact damage, and somebody mentioned Rattan, I suggest this video from Discovery for consideration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vWQdX5SA8s

scythefwd
August 31, 2010, 12:22 AM
Looks like rattan will hold up pretty well in shorter lengths.

Shockwave that is the same stuff I use to crack and splinter in full length bos (6-7 ft). There is a lot more force on the end of the bo when you are working with 4-5 ft in front of your hand than when there is 3 ft in front. The techniques are different as well. Two handed swings vs. 1 hand, pivot around a point on the bow, vs. full arm swings (you get a lot more speed on the tip, though either are very effective), etc. I'm surprised to see it hold up that well with a 3 ft stick. Then again, these guys weren't going full power, and they did break one (you see it start to go in the slow motion video). A few more hits and that is a useless handle instead of a stick.
You also have to remember that I was breaking maple bos almost at will back in those days (about 13 years ago, and about 60 lbs ago). I cracked a hickory one. I never got near the power of some guys who were breaking oak bos. I never did anything to my purple heart or ippy bo, but the ippy is laminated with the grain crossing. It took me a couple of months to really get power out of that because it was a bit more flexible than my purple heart bo.

glistam - Sweet Video.

saltydog452
September 3, 2010, 06:05 PM
Years ago a cousin whacked me good with a jointed cane fishing pole.

The std 12 ft or so cane poles were awkward to carry so some enterprising souls made them smaller 4-5' length. Brass male/female connectors ,(ferule?),were added that'd allow quick creek/river side assembly.

Maybe it was the added weight of the brass tip, but that dang thing hurt. It was only a few whacks, but an egg sucking dog would've had a better time of it.

Never tease your freckle face, fair haired cousin. You will NEVER live it down.

In some Pacific Rim countrys, isn't 'caneing' legal?

salty

heron
September 4, 2010, 11:33 AM
In some Pacific Rim countrys, isn't 'caneing' legal?Not just legal; it's a traditional method of punishment . . . can't recall just where, now.

Thorgrim
September 8, 2010, 08:06 PM
!!!

shockwave
September 8, 2010, 08:32 PM
there is a lot more force on the end of the bo when you are working with 4-5 ft in front of your hand than when there is 3 ft in front.

I train with bo and jo staffs, 3 times a week each. You're ferrying coal to Newcastle, brother.

Some of the techniques being described here require dan tien rotation, which is a full-body windup in the vertical (up and down) rotation, as opposed to the more traditional Okinawan side-to-side hip movement, so we're getting pretty far afield.

A more simple tip for cane users is to work on keeping the hands fairly planted on the stick and generating the movement of it through the body. That is, the arms don't swing at the target, the arms stay mostly stationary where they are, and the torquing, swinging motion of the body delivers the strike. "Hit with your hips" is the ticket.

When you do all this right, you'll find that very little muscle is needed. The beginner tends to try too hard, and the real trick is to let the cane or stick do the work. It's more about leverage than swinging speed.

It isn't a baseball bat. It's more devastating to do things like fit it under the armpit, hook the chin and neck and rip backward. The sucker will go down hard with very little effort.

Testy1
September 11, 2010, 11:40 PM
A few things on canes and sticks in general. OK, credentials first. I am a "Lakan Unang/Untas in Kali Silat, a martial art from the Fillipines. At least in the first part of the syllabus it uses short (28") sticks, either singly or in pairs.

A few things about the sticks, for light sparring they are made from 1" rattan with the nodes spaced far apart. These are very light sticks and as I believe scythefwd mentioned, they don't last very long before splintering. Of course, they don't hurt near as much when you get hit either.:D If you get rattan from the base of the plant, the nodes are only a few inches apart and it is much denser. These will last just about forever and will break bones VERY easily. The other woods used are Kamagong / Macassar Ebony which is an extremely dense wood, and another wood that is the heart of a special palm tree. The Christians in the North use the palm wood and the Moslems in the South use the ebony.
Anyway, I've seen numerous people knocked unconscious with the very light sparring sticks. This occasionally happens when the man holding the stick simply flicks his wrist and accidentally connects. A 3 or 4 foot cane made from something hard and dense, like hickory or cocobolo, could very easily kill someone.

Regards

Testy1

hso
September 12, 2010, 07:52 AM
Testy1,

Thank you for participating and lending your expertise in this area.

Testy1
September 12, 2010, 11:50 AM
hso

You're welcome, I hope it was of some use.

Regards

Testy

Deltaboy
September 12, 2010, 03:55 PM
Bring on the PAIN!!!!

slabuda
September 12, 2010, 09:45 PM
Ill second the rattan with close nodes. I used to practice eskrima as well. The training sticks will splinter after repeated strikes stick to stick. The more dense one will shatter the training sticks in no time.

Other ones used are iron wood etc. A cane made of that will be heavy and may be hard to wield easily. But if you can manage will be effective in any of the ways the OP mentioned.

And like Testy said they will kill. In the P.I they have been know to have challenge fights of "honor" or to settle scores etc. Guys most certainly died or were seriously injured. I used to get hit with the training sticks in full eskrima armour by a UK/European/World champ and it still hurt like heck even through the armour!!!!!!!!

19-3Ben
September 12, 2010, 10:11 PM
Re: Rattan

Back when I was doing a lot of martial arts, we were learning stick fighting as part of our routine. We all bought rattan fighting sticks (approx 3ft long.).

They held up to unbelievable abuse. We were hitting the sticks against one another in strike/block practices with full force many dozens of times per night, and I never saw a single one break.

p35
September 26, 2010, 07:26 PM
Here's a practical example. Reading between the lines it sounds more like two drunks fighting than self defense, but a cane definitely did the job:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/155539/OAP-attacks-Hell-s-Angel-Race-jibe-led-to-assault/

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