Best Hunting Caliber?


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crazyboi12321
August 7, 2010, 03:52 AM
I have been shooting and hunting for a while (Handguns, Shotguns) and i dont have any rifles. I wanted to know what caliber would be best to hunt varmint (Hares, Coyote) and also be able to take down a boar. I would like one rifle to do both. I know .308 has the necessary power to take down a boar but i wanted to know how it is with recoil like how many shots before you dont even want to shoot anymore, also if it is just overkill for varmint. I dont need the hides from them. The other caliber i was thinking about was .243 but when i was doing research i was hearing that its not enough to take down a boar. Any opinions appreciated. Thanks

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sumpnz
August 7, 2010, 04:25 AM
If you want to eat the small game or save pelts then the .308 will not leave you much. Nor will the .243 on bunnies and similar size animals. Sounds like those aren't much of a concern, so a .308 will do the job, though you will likely find the recoil to be more than you'd prefer.

For edible small game (rabbits/hares, squirrels, etc) it's hard to beat a .22lr. Good .22lr rifles can be had for under $200, and the ammo is very cheap. Effective range on rodents is a good 50 yards, more if you're good enough for a head shot. If you want to reach out farther look into the .17HMR. Rifles are a bit more expensive, and ammo is, IIRC, about 3x the cost of .22lr last I looked. But it's got a heck of a reputation for accuracy, and it'll extend your effective range to 100+ yards. I don't know where you live, but wherever I've hunting such small game a .17HMR will get you a longer range capability than is useful.

Coyotes are routinely taken with everything, in terms of power, from .223 Rem on up. The rimfires certainly can kill them, but they just don't have the punch for a 40# animal at anything but a pretty short range.

And .308 is certainly plenty and appropirate for a pig.

I think you'll find that you really need 2 rifles for those rather different applications. At the very least its a good excuse to buy 2 guns instead of one :).

Purgatory
August 7, 2010, 05:18 AM
I've been researching the same scenario, Crazy, and I've decided on the .308, myself. The .243 is a real sweet shootin cartridge. Recoil is not a big deal at all and accuracy is very good and you can still take deer-size game with it.

But that stops at around 200 lbs, where the pigs can go 500 lbs easy. So, I decided to go with the .308 so I can take that big piggy that happens across my path while deer hunting, no problem. -And also for specifically hunting pig.

As far as varmint like coyote and such, I'll just have to use a lighter grain bullet in the .308 like the 110 grain as long as it's accurate in my gun. Otherwise I'll be shootin coyote with a .308 150 grain bullet and sayin a little prayer of forgiveness to the Mother of Nature for the devastation. :o


P.S. I've conceded that I'll have to bridge the gap between .22 WMR and .308 in the future.

Grumulkin
August 7, 2010, 09:36 AM
I have been shooting and hunting for a while (Handguns, Shotguns) and i dont have any rifles. I wanted to know what caliber would be best to hunt varmint (Hares, Coyote) and also be able to take down a boar. I would like one rifle to do both. I know .308 has the necessary power to take down a boar but i wanted to know how it is with recoil like how many shots before you dont even want to shoot anymore, also if it is just overkill for varmint. I dont need the hides from them. The other caliber i was thinking about was .243 but when i was doing research i was hearing that its not enough to take down a boar. Any opinions appreciated.

As far as recoil is concerned, that's a very personal issue and tolerance is somewhat of an acquired taste. The recoil of a 308 seems inconsequential to me but I could also sit at the bench and touch off 50 to 100 458 Lott loads without much discomfort. If it gives you and frame of reference, 308 recoil is about the same as 30/06 recoil and more than 270 or 25/06 recoil.

If you're concerned about meat damage on smaller animals, use solids. At least in my 30/06, 165 gr. Barnes Banded Solids shoot to about the same place as Barnes TSX bullets of similar weight at 100 yards.

MCgunner
August 7, 2010, 10:09 AM
If you want to shoot smaller animals with the .308, just shoot a match or FMJ bullet. I really like my .308 in a little light weight M7 Remington. Recoil isn't bad at all, but then, recoil tolerance varies by individual. It's not as easy as my .257 Roberts on the shoulder, but a heck of a lot easier than my 7 mag which weighs a good bit more, too. In my son-in-law's heavy barrel Remington with 26" fluted barrel, the .308 feels like a .243. :D Depends on the gun, but it's great in my little M7, love the thing.

This year, though, I'm going to be hunting mostly with a .50 caliber shooting a 320 grain cast bullet. :D That one kicks a bit with 80 grains of 777 FFFg granulation. I don't think the hogs or deer will go very far, though. It hits with a thump. :D

dakotasin
August 7, 2010, 10:55 AM
when talking big game hunting i don't think chambering should enter the equation very early. the rifle and accoutrements are more critical than the chambering.

for example... if you are hunting an area on foot where your hunt doesn't start until the pickup is a mile behind you the rifle you choose to carry will be markedly different than if your hunt starts when you get into your seat in a tree stand or whatever.

give more thought to the platform, less for chambering.

to answer the question as asked, though, i would say a 308 is about ideal as it gets for most hunters - and i am of the opinion that mcgunner is on the right track - or at least was until he got to some weird fff-thing - when he speaks of his remington m7 in 308.

other good chamberings are going to be anything starting at 257 roberts and going up to 338 win mag (my personal favorite all around chambering) - and covering everything in between.

NCsmitty
August 7, 2010, 10:59 AM
If you are able to tolerate recoil from the larger gauge shotguns, you shouldn't have an issue with a centerfire rifle like the 308 Win.

Many of the rifle calibers make "managed recoil" ammo for hunting and target.

Shotgun recoil energy-12Ga 1 1/8oz ---23ftlbs

308 Win recoil energy-165gr---17ftlbs

In the heat of the hunt, you probably won't feel the recoil anyway.



NCsmitty

MCgunner
August 7, 2010, 12:00 PM
Sorry, dakotasin, just been on an old school kick, lately. Well, maybe not. I mean, Dan'l Boone didn't hunt with a scoped inline, but hey, the big thumper thing attracts me. :D

Actually, I got the urge for that little M7 after hiking hill over dale in the Guadalupes chasing mulies. That 7 mag got heavy fast! But, it is a very accurate little rifle and the compact dimensions work great in a stand, box blind, or still hunting heavy cover. It's about as all around as it gets! I love that thing for about any hunting situation, why I haven't fired my .257 or my 7 mag much since I got it. It's taken a few deer and a good number of hogs and even three coyotes, one past 350 yards. It's a 3/4 MOA gun even though it has a 20" soda straw barrel.

Fremmer
August 7, 2010, 12:32 PM
Don't we need ballistic coefficient and sectional density charts to tell us the answer?

Robert Wilson
August 7, 2010, 01:00 PM
I am considering a .257 Weatherby for boar hunting. With a solid bullet like the Barnes Triple Shock it should be quite effective. It would also make an exceptional long range varmint rifle with softer bullets. The downsides are recoil (about like a .308, in fact) and relatively short barrel life, at least if used as a typical varmint rifle.

I have a .228 Ackley that would serve the same purpose if I could get the Triple Shock or similar bullet in that odd diameter. It has been used on deer with amazing results, with homemade bullets of plain construction, but I have not worked up the courage to try them on boar. Frankly, I suspect the .220 Swift would be very effective with one of the heavier Triple Shocks, but I also suspect that plan would raise a lot of eyebrows. Of course, both calibers would be ideal for varminting.

375shooter
August 7, 2010, 02:33 PM
I have been shooting and hunting for a while (Handguns, Shotguns) and i dont have any rifles. I wanted to know what caliber would be best to hunt varmint (Hares, Coyote) and also be able to take down a boar. I would like one rifle to do both. I know .308 has the necessary power to take down a boar but i wanted to know how it is with recoil like how many shots before you dont even want to shoot anymore, also if it is just overkill for varmint. I dont need the hides from them. The other caliber i was thinking about was .243 but when i was doing research i was hearing that its not enough to take down a boar. Any opinions appreciated. Thanks

With the right bullet a .243 will take down a boar. It's best to choose a premium bullet in a heavy weight, such as Barnes TSX, Swift A-Frame, Nosler Partition or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Then find a varmint bullet load that shoots to same point of impact and you're good to go. Just be careful that you don't use the varmint bullet on the boar.;) Other cartridges worth looking at (without going too large in caliber) are.257 Roberts, .25-06 Rem and .260 Rem.

FLAvalanche
August 7, 2010, 07:46 PM
Hares, coyote and hog with one caliber?

I'd go .223.

wankerjake
August 7, 2010, 09:00 PM
But that stops at around 200 lbs
I disagree, the .243 is plenty capable at bigger than 200lb game. It isn't ideal for 500lb boars but it would do it as 375 shooter mentioned. I killed an elk with mine, though I don't want to do it again. I've shot a number of mule deer with mine without any trouble. It is great for deer on down. The .308 would also be a good caliber for what you describe, especially if you aren't worried about pelt damage. Even if you are, you can moderate it by bullet choice. I shoot coyotes with my .243, sometimes it tears them up, sometimes it doesn't. I'm sure I could find a bullet that would be pelt friendly if I wanted. Also the .308 certainly will kill boars. I haven't done it but it kills elk routinely so...
Either caliber I think you'd be happy with. If pelt damage is no concern and boars will be a common target then the .308 would proably be better. Recoil of the .243 is basically non-existent but the .308 is not exactly a mule either.

bswiv
August 7, 2010, 11:03 PM
Wife has taken a good number of hogs and deer with a .243. As someone said, use a GOOD bullet and it will work fine.

Real nice part about it is that you can get it in a youth sized rifle that even for a adult is very easy to use in a tree stand and in thick cover.........

DIM
August 7, 2010, 11:37 PM
223 with 1:8 barrel twist will be great choice for what you looking, it will shoot bullets from 55 grain up to 80 grains. Those 80 grains are enough to put dead stop on deer or pigs. Tikka makes T3 models and their 223 barrels are 1:8 twist, you could get in to AR-15 they have many varmint models with 1:8. On the second thought you can't go wrong with 270 win. With 90 gr bullets screaming at 3600 fps no varmint is safe and with 130 - 160 gr bullets will do moose or elk.

joeq
August 8, 2010, 12:47 AM
Personally, I choose the 270 Winchester as my all around hunting rifle. I can get loads for everything I want to do.

Purgatory
August 8, 2010, 02:46 AM
JoeQ, I've definitely heard and very much considered the argument for the .270 and would really love to have and use one.

Guess after much research and deliberation, though, I decided on a short action instead.
-At least for now.

Wankerjake, you're probably right on the money with your perspective of the .243. I was only able to handle a friend's a handful of times at the range, but loved the accuracy and complete lack of recoil.

Yet, I do very well live where pigs are outnumbering people, and big'uns at that. So I concluded the .308 was necessary. I wana bring the BANG-stick down on those monsters when the opportunity arises.

I like the idea of being able to go almost as heavy as the .30-06 also.

wankerjake
August 8, 2010, 03:13 AM
I LOVE my .243 but to be honest if I was gonna hunt a bunch of big hogs and didn't care about pelts I'd take the .308 as well. Even if I did care about coyote pelts I could make the .308 work. Shoot rabbits in the head if you want the meat. Have fun man, get some.

Fernando
August 8, 2010, 07:52 AM
If you hunt pigs in late afternoon or at night, or in heavy bush, and don’t have a dog that can track blood real good, don’t recommend less than .308 w. Here in Europe boars are hunted mostly with 9,3x62, 300 win mag or 30.06 spr, and .308 w has only some use – and only to some – to hunt standing still small to medium boars at ranges usually no more than 100 or 120 meters.

Every year hunters get wounded by boars, here. Being undergunned is not recommended.

Everybody can take a kick from a .308 w or a 30.06 when hunting. In fact, even a 375H&H Mag will leave you with a big smile if you see your piggy down the road pedaling with the feet up, lolol

MCgunner
August 8, 2010, 08:19 AM
.243 will kill, with the proper bullet in the right place, any hog that walks. There is no such thing as overkill on a dangerous animal, however.

Hares, coyote and hog with one caliber?

I'd go .223.


I'd rather blow up a rabbit that get sliced up by a pissed off boar. Thanks, but no thanks. Head shots, you say? Okay, I'll save money and use my 10/22. :rolleyes:

qajaq59
August 8, 2010, 10:21 AM
I'd say the .308 and then use appropriate bullets and head shots for the smaller sized game.

Justin Holder
August 8, 2010, 07:40 PM
Before I got my .270win. I used my .243win. loaded with 100gr. Power Points for everything from crows to hogs.

Get a .243, load some 100gr. bullets, and the hogs will fear you.

JimKirk
August 8, 2010, 08:56 PM
.243 or 25/06!!

Either is up to the job.

Jimmy K

FLAvalanche
August 8, 2010, 10:28 PM
I'd rather blow up a rabbit that get sliced up by a pissed off boar. Thanks, but no thanks. Head shots, you say? Okay, I'll save money and use my 10/22.

Head shots aren't necessary. Hit them in the vitals like your supposed to and they don't go far. I've shot plenty of hog in the vitals with .223 and not a single one of them have made it more than 40 yards.

If you can't drop a hog with a well placed shot with a .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.

DIM
August 8, 2010, 10:36 PM
I know many pigs, huge pigs 300lb were hunted in US and Europe using .223, minimum requirement to put down a boar is 69gr SMK, but 80 gr can do even better job.

Purgatory
August 8, 2010, 11:36 PM
If you can't drop a hog with a well placed shot with a .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.

So you're saying a 60-80 grain bullet at roughly 3400+fps is just as effective as a 150-180 grain bullet at ~2700+ fps?

If this is true, I'm amazed. Would the higher velocity make up for the difference in weight of projectile with close to equal hydrostatic damage to the vitals?

Nematocyst
August 8, 2010, 11:43 PM
It's a sign of the times that no one mentioned .30-30, which is the clear choice.

Load it up for larger game, load it down (110 grain or less (http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,41593.0.html), or 00 buck over a few grains of powder) for small game.

Click on levers in sig line for more information.

22-rimfire
August 8, 2010, 11:58 PM
I think you could use a 22 rifle and a something in the 270 > 308 power range. I would not use the larger caliber for varmints except at long range. Use the 22LR for little stuff. The 243 or 25-06 would be adequate with proper bullet choice, and especially good for longer range shooting on coyotes without being excessive. I believe it will take a fair sized hog. Recoil is a lot less than the 270 > 308 power level.

DIM
August 9, 2010, 12:05 AM
I googled 223 tissue damage and this picture came up first, some guy got shot with 223 in the leg, i think it speaks for itself

John Wayne
August 9, 2010, 12:27 AM
DIM, you might want to add a "graphic image" disclaimer to that link.

Yeah, I know it's a bullet wound and that should go without saying but sometimes you've still gotta CYA.

Purgatory
August 9, 2010, 01:22 AM
That's amazing. So, is that what you want a hunting bullet to do, though, is yaw and tumble and fragment like the .223 does? Seems like it'd be too destructive to the meat. No?

Greg Koziol
August 9, 2010, 02:39 AM
I like my marlin .45-70 as an all around hunting, dangerous game hunting, and bear defenseand home defense gun. I have it customized it can hold 8 cartridges, 22" barrel so it is fairly compact. THe beauty of the .45-70 is the wide variety of ammo available for it. You can get a 300 grain buffalo bore round that flies at almost 2400fps which is good for deer or close quarters home defense battles out to 200 yards, fairly flat shooting. You can get a lever evolution which shoots almost like a bolt action. Then if you want to go bear or moose or big dangerous game hunting you can go with a 400 grain to 550 grain solids or cast lead bullet pumped out from 2000fps - 1500fps... that will lay the smack down on anythink from elephants to xenomorphs haha to lightly armored vehicles, engine blocks, doors etc. Highly customziable rifle and with the lever action you get quick follow up shots where as with a bolt rifle follow up shots are slow.. you can get a scout scope in low power for shots out to 200 or even 300 yards if you practice, or a red dot for fast close quarters snap shots. very customizeable gun also if your into reloading you can make your own cartridges with all types of different bullet sizes from 250 grains to 550 grains, you can make them as fast or as slow as you want. You can customzie your ammo and bullet type to your task.

FLAvalanche
August 9, 2010, 08:53 AM
So you're saying a 60-80 grain bullet at roughly 3400+fps is just as effective as a 150-180 grain bullet at ~2700+ fps?

If this is true, I'm amazed. Would the higher velocity make up for the difference in weight of projectile with close to equal hydrostatic damage to the vitals?
No, what I'm saying is that an ineffective shooter is an ineffective shooter regardless of what caliber you hand him.

If you can't hit vitals with a .223 you're not going to hit vitals with a .308.

But, I'll still play your game...If you're relying on hydrostatic damage to make up for poor marksmanship maybe you should spend a little more time at the range before you step into the woods.

DIM
August 9, 2010, 10:11 AM
You guys right, sorry for to much graphic link I posted previously, I had to remove it, but
I found another one, some deer specie got hit with 223 in the neck that's 69gr SMK in work, some say SMK not design for hunting.... Exit wound...
http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003521/3521343.jpg

Art Eatman
August 9, 2010, 10:15 AM
Sheesh! Y'all think for a moment: "Vitals" means different things to different people, for one thing. Ease of hitting some critter in a clean-kill spot will vary with the situation. Some angles, a .223 is fine. Other angles, a large and heavy bullet is far superior. There is no "one size fits all".

"Marksmanship", also. Some of us get in a lot of trigger time. Many folks don't. Give other members credit for being trigger-time folks, not "one box a year" types. Just general principles, to save arguing.

Next: What's the most common use for some particular rifle/cartridge package? Mostly little stuff, or mostly hogs? If mostly hogs, go bigger than a .223--that general principles thing again. If only occasionally hogs, the answer for a .223 guy is to be pickier about what shot he's actually gonna take.

In posting, more thinking beats more hurrying. Avoid the syndrome of, "I gotta get this wondrous, definitive answer posted before somebody beats me to it!" that shows up all too often, okay? :D

336A
August 9, 2010, 10:17 AM
I'd say that the good Ol' .30-30 fits the bill to a tee for your needs. No need for any fancy shmancy bullets here. Just use whatever plane jane SP ammo shoots best and be done with it. Depending on your local a box of Remington, Federal, Winchester SP ammo should be about $13 - $15. Since wild pigs are on the menu, I would welcome the ability to get off a quick second shot (which a lever action delivers in spades) in case you muff a shot or things get a little hairy.

shaggy430
August 9, 2010, 10:23 AM
I think I'm having deja vu. I think I'm having deja vu.

FLAvalanche
August 9, 2010, 10:39 AM
Sheesh! Y'all think for a moment: "Vitals" means different things to different people, for one thing. Ease of hitting some critter in a clean-kill spot will vary with the situation. Some angles, a .223 is fine. Other angles, a large and heavy bullet is far superior. There is no "one size fits all".

"Marksmanship", also. Some of us get in a lot of trigger time. Many folks don't. Give other members credit for being trigger-time folks, not "one box a year" types. Just general principles, to save arguing.

Next: What's the most common use for some particular rifle/cartridge package? Mostly little stuff, or mostly hogs? If mostly hogs, go bigger than a .223--that general principles thing again. If only occasionally hogs, the answer for a .223 guy is to be pickier about what shot he's actually gonna take.

In posting, more thinking beats more hurrying. Avoid the syndrome of, "I gotta get this wondrous, definitive answer posted before somebody beats me to it!" that shows up all too often, okay? :D
I'm sorry Art but I just wholesale disagree with everything you said.

First, I wasn't in a rush with a wondrous, definitive answer. The OP asked for our opinions on what caliber we thought would be best for the game he listed and I did just that. Gave my opinion, as did everyone else. The .223 is effective against hogs, very popular on coyote, and with the right rounds leave enough hare to eat if the OP so wishes.

Vitals are vitals Art. Opinion doesn't change anatomy. I've killed more hogs with .223 than any other caliber. I wouldn't say I'm picky about my shots but I won't take a shot with a .30-30, .30-06, or .308 that I wouldn't take with a .223.

And marksmanship is necessary for quick clean kills. I wasn't downing anyones marksmanship ability when I said "if you can't hit vitals you should spend more time on the range", "YOU" is a broad reference to ANY hunter, and it's a responsibilty and requirement I hold myself to and I believe every hunter should. Accurate and proper bullet placement should be ahead of hydrostatic damage with every shot.

I'm confident in my abilities and the abilities of my chosen caliber, my freezer is proof. Just because my inital responce was short doesn't mean I didn't put plenty of thought AND experience into it.

Brad5192
August 9, 2010, 02:46 PM
7mm-08

Purgatory
August 9, 2010, 04:29 PM
But, I'll still play your game...If you're relying on hydrostatic damage to make up for poor marksmanship maybe you should spend a little more time at the range before you step into the woods.

For the record, I wasn't attacking, berating, or being intentionally condescending toward you in any way, FLAvalanche.

This sentence:
If you can't drop a hog with a well placed shot with a .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.

and this sentence:
If you can't hit vitals with a .223 you're not going to hit vitals with a .308.

-appear as different as night and day to me. I guess I misunderstood.

My questions were absolutely sincere. I'm on this forum MOSTLY to learn -even though that's probably not the best idea since it's all just people chattin', but I love to learn and discuss things, especially firearms.

In the future, if there's any doubt from anyone about my intentions with a post, if it seems smarty-pants, it's probably just a sincere inquiry from someone who truly doesn't know for sure and is sincerely interested in the information.

I admit the technical details of rifles, particularly, and their ballistics are a work-in-progress for me, but I very much enjoy all the nuances that can be discussed. So take my questions for what they read and not what you might think they may imply.

Ok, done deal. Water under the bridge. Moving forward.

FLAvalanche
August 9, 2010, 04:39 PM
For the record, I wasn't attacking, berating, or being intentionally condescending toward you in any way, FLAvalanche.

I didn't feel you were, nor I you. Like I said, when I said "you" in that comment I was using it as a broad reference to all hunters.

I didn't intend for that to sound like a personal attack.

If you can't drop a hog with a well placed shot with a .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.

Reading that outside of my post I can see why it's confusing. I wasn't comparing .223 to .308 I was comparing the hunter's ability with either caliber. I should have said something along the lines of "If you don't have the marksmanship ability to drop a hog with .223 then a .308 isn't going to do you much more good.". Something along the lines of a miss with a .223 is still a miss with a .308 or a non-vital shot with a .223 is still a non-vital shot with a .308.

Stuff gets lost in print...I think we're both victims of that.

FLAvalanche
August 9, 2010, 04:57 PM
That's amazing. So, is that what you want a hunting bullet to do, though, is yaw and tumble and fragment like the .223 does? Seems like it'd be too destructive to the meat. No?
Personally I don't want a bullet to yaw and tumble like that. It doesn't burn off the energy quickly like something that opens up like a hollowpoint or softpoint. You obviously understand hydrostatic damage.

Think NASCAR for a moment because it's the best way to describe it. A hit straight into the wall is the hardest impact. All the stored energy in the car is dissipated immediately and quickly. That's your hydrostatic shock. The driver gets out slow because he still got his bell rung.

Now, take a look at a wreck where the car rolls half a dozen times. The stored energy in the car is bled off slowly. While those wrecks LOOK worse because you see a car flipping and twisting and parts flying off, to the driver, it's nothing, impact-wise, compared to hitting the wall head on at speed. That's kinda like the impact a yawing and tumbling has. Damage is done but if you didn't get penetration into the vitals it's not going kill the animal quick unless you're lucky enough to knick a main vein or artery.

.223 is known as a round that tumbles and yaws although it's mostly grossly exaggerated. I'm sure you've heard the "You don't want hit with a .223/5.56 because it'll go in your shoulder and come out your foot!".

Purgatory
August 9, 2010, 06:58 PM
.223 is known as a round that tumbles and yaws although it's mostly grossly exaggerated. I'm sure you've heard the "You don't want hit with a .223/5.56 because it'll go in your shoulder and come out your foot!".

Exactly! That's exactly what I thought of the .223 and have heard those very stories about it's effects in 'Nam. The graphic pic of that guy's quad just completely destroyed with a single .22 cal projectile SEEMED to back-up those claims. So it lead me to believe that the .223/5.56 would not be very effective on anything larger than a coyote, or deer at best, if it just skitters around and flies apart, etc.

There is plenty of evidence that it's effective on a human, at least in a battle scenario where wounded is sometimes more preferable than dead-right-there, but I concluded that, as a hunting round, you would prefer it to "focus" it's damage in a precisely chosen area.

Am I on base here?

DIM
August 9, 2010, 07:52 PM
few more images I found on 223 hunting with 69 gr SMK and chest penetration, I think its a pig of some sort...
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/001820/1820886.jpg
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/001799/1799585.jpg

looks like clean shot not much of meat damage...

Maverick223
August 9, 2010, 07:58 PM
Here is a piece that I wrote a while back on my favorite hunting cartridges (plural because one is never enough):

In my mind the perfect hunting cartridge would sail out as far as you like, damage no meat, reliably drop any size prey, with little recoil, and be inexpensive and available...since that doesn't exist...and never will, the following is my selection for the near perfect rifle cartridges and their respective uses:


.22LR: Magnificent old chambering for small game such as squirrel, rabbit, and larger prey at short range with good shot placement. Added benefit of cheap and available ammunition.

.223Rem.: The choice of the US armed forces and groundhog hunters alike. This cartridge makes a great varmint and moderate size game round with flat trajectory, and many projectile options available for the task at hand. Relatively inexpensive and readily available ammunition is a added bonus. (.22-250 and .220Swift are honorable mentions but are much more costly)

.260Rem.: Introduced late in the past century, it has demonstrated itself to be a superb medium and large thin skinned game cartridge, the very flat trajectory and excellent BC makes the cartridge very effective with little recoil. (honorable mentions are the 6.5x55mmSwede and the 7mm-08Rem.)

.280Rem.: A near perfect large game cartridge with good trajectory and hard hitting power to take nearly any animal that strides the plains (or anywhere else) in NA, including most in the far north, whilst maintaining manageable recoil. (the .30-06Springfield and .270Win. are honorable mentions and more cost-effective alternatives)

.30-30Win.: Generally packaged in a lightweight handy rifle, the cartridge seemingly doesn't exhibit any attributes that make a rifle cartridge great, but the low-recoil, inexpensive ammunition, adequate power, and quick handling that it affords makes it a cartridge that has stood the test of time.

.375H&H: This big belted magnum can solve nearly any problem that you might encounter on the NA continent and most on the great dark continent as well. It offers good trajectory and plenty of power to put down beasts in the far north. (honorable mentions are the .338WM and the .300WM, but are slightly more limited in application)

.45-70Govt.: This lumbering old cartridge has proved itself to be a great brush cartridge and can quickly slay all but the largest beast with brute force. It has a reputation for making a large hole that you "can eat right up to".


As you may note there are no wildcats (though a few are not common cartridges), and little mention of magnums (for I believe the vast majority of hunting does not require one). Some are quite old, and some more recent rounds, none are terribly costly in comparison to similar cartridges or their respective use. It seems lately that there have been quite a few threads about this or that new uber-super round (some that look promising...others just expensive) or why old reliable is or isn't good enough any more.

If forced to choose one for all of North American game it would be the .280Rem. Why?...versatility; it has the capability to down nearly any game, at a reasonably long range (certainly sufficient for hunting), and does so at an affordable cost and with reasonable recoil.

:)

thaumaturgist, you might want to take a look at the above.

MCgunner
August 9, 2010, 08:02 PM
No, what I'm saying is that an ineffective shooter is an ineffective shooter regardless of what caliber you hand him.

Well, if you could handle a little recoil, you might be able to use a more effective caliber. :neener:

I think the popularity of the .223 stems from the popularity of the AR15 that youngsters seem to prefer. I am not used to pistol grips and believe a proper hunting rifle needs to have some proper ergos. I'm old, I've been shooting a long time, and I'm fixed in my ways. I like my bolt guns, though lately I'm on a muzzle loading kick again.

Maverick....when I got my 7 mag, I was thinkin' about getting a .280. I thought to myself, heck, I can load the 7 down to do anything that the .280 can do, but not necessarily the other way around. So, I got the 7 mag. Then, the 7mm STW became popular....:rolleyes: But, anyway, you can parce this thing to death. The .280 is a fine all around north American big game round, for sure, as is the .270. I just like the .284 bullet selection.

Maverick223
August 9, 2010, 08:36 PM
Maverick....when I got my 7 mag, I was thinkin' about getting a .280. I thought to myself, heck, I can load the 7 down to do anything that the .280 can do, but not necessarily the other way around. So, I got the 7 mag. Then, the 7mm STW became popular...Well I suppose you could load that Shooting Times Western to dup. the .280Rem. too, but that is a cavernous case for popping that round out at such humble velocity. The 7mmRM isn't a bad option, but sometimes too much gun is just too much gun no matter how you load it. The big maggies tend to be heavier and have a longer bbl (that isn't always necessary), i'm not saying that is the case (it probably isn't), just that it can be. I too, greatly prefer the 7mm/.284cal. bullet selection, but there is no denying that the .277cal./6.8mm is near indistinguishable for most sporting purposes.

:)

MCgunner
August 9, 2010, 09:14 PM
The big maggies tend to be heavier and have a longer bbl (that isn't always necessary),

Well, that's why I got the .308 in a little Remington M7. :D I haven't used that 7 in a while. Really, a .30-30 is more'n enough where I'm hunting in recent years, don't need the range. I have been using a .30-30...in a Contender pistol. It works great inside 200 yards. :D Now, I'm off on this black powder thing. I've never shot anything, but paper with black powder. I'm itchin' to draw blood with it. :D

Eb1
August 9, 2010, 10:16 PM
I am going to say read your state laws, and that might help you decide. Where I live you can only take small game with a shotgun, or a rifle of .22 rimfire or less. That leaves out the 30-30 with buckshot over pistol powder, etc.

If you want a good all around rifle a .22 Magnum is a good one, and so is a .22 LR such as a Marlin Model 60. Usually $140, and ammo is cheap, and the gun is deadly accurate. Especially if you add a scope.

A .223 is a great caliber. Low recoil, and will take pigs, deer, and varmint. No, problem. You should be a good shot to take the deer and pigs. I shot to far back or to high, and you will be chasing deer all day and night.

.243 great gun. Does its job well. I think it is a good choice.

.25-06 is a better rifle IMO, and will rock'em/sock'em way out. I own one, and I am biased about it.

.308/.30-06 Not the same. .30-06 has it on .308 IMO, but that is another time/another place. These calibers bit a little more than the mentioned calibers above.

I say read your laws, decide what you want to hunt, or what you need from a rifle. Then shot a few. Most people at a range will let you shoot there rifle if you tell them what you want to shoot it for. Make conversation, and shoot the bull. Then say you were wondering if you might take a round or two because you are interested in purchasing a rifle. I wouldn't mind you taking a round or five from my rifles if you are a honest about your intent, etc...

squirrelhunter
August 9, 2010, 10:26 PM
Given the choice of calibers in relation to the game, I might go with a 308 as well. Having hunted feral hogs once with a 30-30, I'd rather err on the side of a bigger caliber.

Eb1
August 9, 2010, 10:53 PM
Hate to break it to you, squirrelhunter. A 30-30 is the same caliber as a .308. They both are .308s actually.

Unless you are shooting hogs the size of elephants. A 30-30 will do fine. But that is another thread.

thaumaturgist
August 9, 2010, 10:55 PM
Why is it that everytime someone asks for a cartridge recommendation, someone always starts preaching the merits of the .223 on big game... and yes, hogs are big game. In a hunting situation, shots may be presented from many different angles. If you must put a bullet through the thick, tough hide and shoulder blade of a large hog, you will be sorely disappointed if all you have is a .223. Yes, some people use them and anyone can find anicdotal evidence and pictures. Bottom line is that even the people who make and market small centerfires like the .223 only recommend them for varmints and predators. That should tell you something. The .308 penetrates better and does more damage than the .243 and certainly more than the .223. That being the case, the animal will die quicker with the larger bullet. The argument that a .223 will kill just as quickly and humanely as a .308 if the shot is in the vitals is simply wrong and anyone who has taken much big game would know that. A .30 or .45 caliber wound channel is noticably more effective than a .22 caliber wound.

MCgunner
August 9, 2010, 11:06 PM
Hate to break it to you, squirrelhunter. A 30-30 is the same caliber as a .308. They both are .308s actually.


Well, the .308 has more power. I suppose that's squirrelhunter's meaning. It's got about 400-500 fps on the .30-30 with a given bullet weight and equal barrel length. But, yes, the .30-30 is a fine hog getter. I'd shoot the 160 partition if after big hogs.

snakeman
August 9, 2010, 11:57 PM
The best hunting caliber is the caliber you shoot best, so long as it packs enough punch for the game you are hunting and is a legal option!

Nematocyst
August 10, 2010, 01:03 AM
^ What he said.

Fernando
August 10, 2010, 09:27 AM
From 2009.Mar.18 to 2009.Mar.23 I tried to count rifles held and used in a Portuguese hunting forum. Our most common targets here are wild boars (sus scrofa) and sometimes red deer (cervus elaphus).

And this is the result:

http://i37.tinypic.com/212sj94.jpg

Legend:
Title of the graphic: Calibers held and used
“cal. 12” - shotgun caliber 12 (used in big game by who doesn't have a rifle)
“outros” - others

The guys with the .270w and 6,7x57 use it to hunt “corsa” (capreolus capreolus), that is the smallest European antelope (about 18 to 29 kg.), and have also bigger calibers to hunt wild boars.

You can see the original poll here:
http://www.santohuberto.com/forum/forum_detalhes.asp?ID=12685&Origem=12550#ini


This guy has two 9,3x62 and one .300wm:
http://www.santohuberto.com/forum/forum_detalhes.asp?ID=12553&Origem=12550#ini

This buy has two .300wm, one 9,3x64 and one 7,64
http://www.santohuberto.com/forum/forum_detalhes.asp?ID=12555&Origem=12550#ini

Why do we use calibers like the 30.06 sprg. and larger calibers in Europe to kill wild boars? Because we need the versatility and the stopping power those calibers offer in night hunts and in daytime driven hunts. They deliver a clean and quick death, allowing us to retrieve a very high percentage of wounded animals. And we avoid most of nasty surprises resulting from close encounters with dangerous boars. Can we kill a wild boar with a smaller caliber? Sure. In fact, I think that we can probably kill a wild boar with a sharp umbrella. But when I sit my ass in the forest at night I usually grab my 30.06 and leave my umbrella at home. I bet you would too, lololol


Ps: If after 10 or 15 visualizations of the portuguese forum you are asked to login, just clean your internet cookies.

FLAvalanche
August 10, 2010, 11:02 AM
Well, if you could handle a little recoil, you might be able to use a more effective caliber.

LOL. If it will make you feel better MCGunner I'm moving up to a .50 Beowulf for my pig gun.

If you must put a bullet through the thick, tough hide and shoulder blade of a large hog, you will be sorely disappointed if all you have is a .223.

The only ones that seem to be disappointed is all the hogs in my freezer. There's three of them in there now and I've taken over 40 hogs in the past 2 years with .223 with over half of them being shoulder shots and NOT ONE single hog making it more than 30 yards.

The argument that a .223 will kill just as quickly and humanely as a .308 if the shot is in the vitals is simply wrong and anyone who has taken much big game would know that.

Seems it kills just as quickly for me...Maybe you're doing something wrong with your .223 to see slower kills. I dunno.

I've killed hogs with 12 gauge slugs, .30-30, .308, .223, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, .45 GAP, .22, .270, bow and arrow and with a knife. I hunt hogs in a 60 acre fenced in old oragne grove with property on all sides that belong to someone else so I can't wound hogs I need to drop them. I've yet to have a hog make it out of that tiny field with anything. 60lb hogs to 400lb hogs. The only thing that's come close to making it out of the field was with my bow.

Maybe we've just sissy hogs down here.

DIM
August 10, 2010, 12:11 PM
Just to add to that, I killed few hogs with 9mm pistol, and 22LR, both at close range. I guess people feel safer when they got 30 cal rifle pointed at the hog, because they do charge sometimes at the shooter...

Maverick223
August 10, 2010, 01:23 PM
I guess people feel safer when they got 30 cal rifle pointed at the hog, because they do charge sometimes at the shooter...Solution: use a Mosin...you might miss, but at least you have a 4ft. long pig sticker if you do. :D

In hindsight I think a 7mm-08Rem. would be the best cartridge for the OP.

:)

FLAvalanche
August 10, 2010, 01:33 PM
Solution: use a Mosin...you might miss, but at least you have a 4ft. long pig sticker if you do.

You mean pole vault?

Maverick223
August 10, 2010, 01:40 PM
You mean pole vault?That too...though I find that their best role is as a tomato stake. :p

Sheepdog1968
August 10, 2010, 01:43 PM
Per the OP and the types of animals, a .308 would be fine. Another potential alternative would be a 30 30 lever action with either the standard blunt nosed bullets or Hornady's Leverevolution rounds. Some people may say it's not enough for hogs, others will say it is.

DIM
August 10, 2010, 01:48 PM
I think we got to far ahead, the crazyboi only asked let me quote him "I wanted to know what caliber would be best to hunt varmint (Hares, Coyote) and also be able to take down a boar." this is why the whole .223 came up, because it is fine caliber for varmints and its fine caliber to take piglets while varmint hunting, just don't use varmint bullets they are to explosive and will not penetrate, but good FMJ or SMK will do just fine....

Fernando
August 10, 2010, 02:15 PM
Quote: “I guess people feel safer when they got 30 cal rifle pointed at the hog, because they do charge sometimes at the shooter... “

It’s not only that. In some places we have high and dense vegetation and it is really easy to lose a boar if you don’t know which way he went after the shoot, especially if he was among others or if you shoot at night.

In areas like that, the only thing that it isn’t green and brown is the damn road an the sky.
http://i34.tinypic.com/e9gd1h.jpg

And even if you find a field, the bushes are never too far (that’s why the boars are there). If the boar gets out of the field after the shot, you better have sun in the sky or a real good dog, because even tracking blood lights or high power cree led torches may let you down.
http://i34.tinypic.com/2ptqwpe.jpg

Boars with thorax shots and pierced vitals can run for more than 100 meters, even if hit by a 9,3mm bullet fired from a rifle.

Quote: ”I think we got to far ahead, the crazyboi only asked let me quote him "I wanted to know what caliber would be best to hunt varmint (Hares, Coyote) and also be able to take down a boar." this is why the whole .223 came up, because it is fine caliber for varmints and its fine caliber to take piglets while varmint hunting, just don't use varmint bullets they are to explosive and want penetrate good, but good FMJ or SMK will do just fine....”

If we need to have a gun for different targets (varmints and boars), I thinks it’s probably a good idea to chose the adequate caliber to the bigger one, not only because it can fight back but because it’s the one that you really like to see in the freezer.

DIM
August 10, 2010, 02:31 PM
I think we getting to the closer, if he doesn't wan't to use one there plenty other ones mentioned here, like 6mm, 6.5, 270 and 7mm, 30 caliber at-last... all will kill boars and pigs alike, if he decides to go with 308 then I would suggest varmint twist like 1:12, I did mentioned 270 win and its capability to shoot light 6.8 mm bullets and heavy 277 bullets, so I thought it would be perfect solution, but since it is long action cartridge, it didn't suit well the needs, Maverick suggested 7mm 08 that's another great one on the list. I can think of another one and you might going to like it, its 270 WSM or 7mm WSM, think about it ;-)

FLAvalanche
August 10, 2010, 02:53 PM
Hand grenades. We know those work on rabbits...

qajaq59
August 10, 2010, 03:41 PM
I can't see arguing about it. Most anything mentioned above is going to drop a hog. They don't need much killing..... If you do a whole bunch of aiming.

Fernando
August 10, 2010, 05:54 PM
Quote: “Hand grenades. We know those work on rabbits...”

Unless they are deep under grown, in their tunnels. In that case I strongly recommend a GBU-28 ;-)

thaumaturgist
August 10, 2010, 08:23 PM
RE: I can't see arguing about it. Most anything mentioned above is going to drop a hog. They don't need much killing..... If you do a whole bunch of aiming.

I don't know what planet you hunt hog on, but on earth pigs do indeed require much killing. And FLAvalanche, I'm sure that you have killed pigs with your kid's cap gun, but you seem to be the only person on earth that can hit a pig and guarantee that it goes nowhere. The last one I shot was with a .500 S&W Magnum through both lungs and it fell, got up and ran about 50 yards. It died in brush so thick that we didnt feel safe going in until the next day. Anyone who says that they can guaranatee a big game animal drops or only runs a few yards with a lung/shoulder shot simply isn't leveling with us. All you .223 fans, go ahead and spin your yarns. You're either not as experienced as you claim or you own a magical, mystical lightning-bolt of a .223 that the rest of us don't possess. It isn't legal in many places for big game, no professional hunters use or recommend it on big game, the makers and marketers don't recommend it on big game, and hunting journalists don't recommend it. So the vast majority of the most experienced hunters in the world are either wrong or the few of you are. I know who my money is on.

Eb1
August 10, 2010, 08:54 PM
@MCgunner - I figure that is what he meant, but not what he said.

DIM
August 10, 2010, 09:43 PM
I have heard many stories on how 270 WIN is insufficient to hunt deer and the main reason to switch from it to 300 WM or 338 and whatever... The main reason that bullets from 270 bounce off and do not penetrate "thick" deer skin. I killed lots of deer with 270 and not on the single occasion it failed to penetrate the skin. Same argument is here on how 223 not suited to hunt pigs, so lets cut this wild chase and recommend 300 WM or even better 338 WM or Federal... just feel sorry for poor wabits :-))

Purgatory
August 11, 2010, 03:21 AM
With all due respect, DIM, I am sincerely curious. Do you have even ONE example of a story where .270 didn't work on Deer or anyone specific claiming that it does not?

All I have ever heard about the .270 is how great it is on anything and everything the .30-06 is effective on. -And, though that's probably debatable, it places it pretty safely inside the capability of killing Deer.

Right?

Wrong?

Shoot me? :o

DIM
August 11, 2010, 08:51 AM
Purgatory, in fact I did come across such claims in the past year or so, on this forum, sounded like deer wearing armor and 270 was no longer suitable :-) I took it as joke, but it was the reason to go higher on the caliber. Myself I use 270 all the time, well sometimes I do use 308, I was thinking to try my 223, my state has no law against it, just my slow twist on 223 which is considered varmint is stopping me. One of these days I will re-barrel it for faster twist, then I would have riffle which can do all, shoot varmints and hunt deer.

FLAvalanche
August 11, 2010, 09:07 AM
but you seem to be the only person on earth that can hit a pig and guarantee that it goes nowhere.

No, actually I'm not. Look around and there are plenty of people on this very forum alone that seem to be able to hunt hog effectively with ARs.

You're either not as experienced as you claim or you own a magical, mystical lightning-bolt of a .223 that the rest of us don't possess.

Seeing as there are plenty of people here that don't seem to have a problem killing hogs with their ARs maybe ours are fine and yours is deffective?

DIM
August 11, 2010, 09:19 AM
Even with 270 I had many deer which would run about 100 yards were they expire, usually that's both lungs and complete penetration, lately I reserve my shots for CNS, where I hunt its hilly terrain and buck are well fed and carrying them uphill are not fun... But they do run, I don't see why not, they have nothing else to loose but their life...

qajaq59
August 11, 2010, 09:47 AM
I don't know what planet you hunt hog on, but on earth pigs do indeed require much killing. Try waiting until you have a decent shot right behind his ear and you wont have to worry about chasing him into the palmettos. And if you can't get a good shot don't pull the trigger.

Fernando
August 11, 2010, 10:05 AM
If your boars continue to drop instantly with the 223, I think it’s time to start feeding them properly. Something is definitely wrong :D

http://i35.tinypic.com/2vsp9j9.jpg

DIM
August 11, 2010, 02:04 PM
Thing is where I live, there are no wild piglets, not in my neck of the woods, however state did warn us that they are spreading, so we hunters must be on high alert and keep their numbers down. Since I can only take one buck during regular season, I'm doing all the varmint shooting I can get with my 223, so if I see any sign of bacon I will not hesitate, although I have slow twist. I successfully shot them in Florida with 22LR right behind their ears...

thaumaturgist
August 11, 2010, 06:40 PM
Wow, so the trick is to just wait until you have a decent shot right behind his ear and you wont have to worry about chasing him into the palmettos and if you can't get a good shot don't pull the trigger. That's fine for domesticated hogs in a pen, but that shot is a difficult shot that you will miss someday and have a horrifically wounded hog that will get away and suffer. Your comment also begs the question: if you can reliably pull this shot off on a regular basis, why aren't you using a .22 LR? I'll say this again: professional hunters, gun companies, ammo companies, and sports writers, all of whom make a living at this, recommend and use larger calibers than a .223 on big game. A couple of you obviously are expert marksmen and amazing hunters, exhibiting more hunting and shooting skill than the professionals who do it everyday. So why are you wasting your time on a blog? Why haven't I seen your articles in the hunting magazines and seen you on TV?

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 07:22 PM
A couple of you obviously are expert marksmen and amazing hunters, exhibiting more hunting and shooting skill than the professionals who do it everyday.I was thinking the same thing...some of those "professionals" need to practice more. :p

So why are you wasting your time on a blog?Some of us don't find a discussion amongst fellow shooters and gun enthusiasts a waste of time...if you do, perhaps this isn't the right place for you. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/footinmouth.gif

Why haven't I seen your articles in the hunting magazines and seen you on TV?First off; how do you know that you haven't? Besides, some folks just don't have the time.

Me? I have to say that I enjoy writing, and could probably squeeze it into my busy day, but I won't let companies trying to sell their wares write my articles for me, so the publishers don't care for me much. I just get fidgety on TV...besides it cuts into shootin' time. :D

Purgatory
August 11, 2010, 07:56 PM
Fernando, you're killin' me with all your pics, man. I'm dyin' to get back to that kind of terrain and foliage.

Keep 'em comin'. ;)

FLAvalanche
August 11, 2010, 08:46 PM
Wow, so the trick is to just wait until you have a decent shot right behind his ear and you wont have to worry about chasing him into the palmettos and if you can't get a good shot don't pull the trigger.

Having the patience to wait for the right shot and pass on the questionable shot is a part of responcible and ethical hunting.

I've said it already: I won't take a shot with a .308 I wouldn't take with a .223. I wouldn't take a shot with a 155mm howitzer I wouldn't take with a .223.

You can take all the information you want from professional hunters, hunting magazines, ammo companies, and sports writers you wish. I'll take blessing of the largest big game hunting club on the planet.

The U.S. Military.

If it's good enough for them to use for the last 50 years I think it'll do me just fine. I have yet to base any part of my life on what paid your "professionals" recommend. They're too worried about kissing up to their sponsors to keep getting free crap.

Your comment also begs the question: if you can reliably pull this shot off on a regular basis, why aren't you using a .22 LR?

I've also already mentioned that I have used .22. Seeing that this is the second thing I've already mentioned it leads me to believe that you don't really care what my side of this discussion is.

Why .223? Because shooting pigs with an AR is just plain fun. Why am I moving to a .50 Beowulf? Because shooting pigs with a .50 cal AR sounds like even more fun! But you'll still see me out there killing pigs with my .223, my bow and arrow and all my other rifles, pistols and shotguns. Diversify. Change it up. Hunting the same animal with the same caliber over and over is boring.

In fact, my next trip is going to be to try out an old J.C. Higgins bolt action 12 gauge.

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 08:54 PM
I've said it already: I won't take a shot with a .308 I wouldn't take with a .223. I wouldn't take a shot with a 155mm howitzer I wouldn't take with a .223.Now I think that is going just a wee bit too far. There absolutely is some game that cannot be ethically (or wisely) taken with a .223Rem. (but while is isn't my choice for the task, I don't believe it is incapable of taking hog with a good shot). It simply hasn't the penetration or mass to effectively take the largest game.

:)

FLAvalanche
August 11, 2010, 09:04 PM
Fernando, you're killin' me with all your pics, man. I'm dyin' to get back to that kind of terrain and foliage.

I said that once. I missed hunting the snow covered mountains of Pa. Then I went back and hunted them.

I was wrong...Warm and flat is nice.

Fernando
August 11, 2010, 09:04 PM
Quote: "That's fine for domesticated hogs in a pen, but that shot is a difficult shot that you will miss someday and have a horrifically wounded hog that will get away and suffer."

A shot to the head from 100 or 150 meters can easily leave you cursing for some days or months. And it’s easy to understand why: the head is the part of the boar that moves the most, even when feeding – any wild boar can and will move his head several times to look for menaces (human or four legged) in short periods of time even if he doesn’t move a leg. Thorax, on the other hand, is usually quite still, especially at feeding time, presenting you with a steady target.

If you shoot with pour light or at greater distances you can easily miss the boar’s head movement, losing 60, 80 or 100 kg of meat :mad:

After several hours in the forest waiting for the bacon, you will not want to return home with a piece of a pig’s jaw or some teeth :D

I think God put almost all the vitals in the thorax for a reason, lol

More pictures for you, Purgatory, all taken with my canon 350D in central Portugal, where I hunt:

http://i38.tinypic.com/24vpn9c.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/whedg.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/2e33k1h.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/1gpso5.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/30u74th.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/kdv49e.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/5ygh9k.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/dxftk0.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2mnkh9z.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/2v0y3b5.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/28bfy0y.jpg

Pics in HDR

It’s almost one in morning here. Better go see about the bed or my girlfriend will kick my ass, lololol

FLAvalanche
August 11, 2010, 09:13 PM
Now I think that is going just a wee bit too far. There absolutely is some game that cannot be ethically (or wisely) taken with a .223Rem. (but while is isn't my choice for the task, I don't believe it is incapable of taking hog with a good shot). It simply hasn't the penetration or mass to effectively take the largest game.

You're absolutely right.

Unfortunetly we don't have any of that game here in Southwest Florida.

Would I shoot elk, moose, caribou or bear with .233? No. Anything human sized? Absolutely.

But keep in mind the OP narrowed it down to hare, bobcat and hog.

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 09:27 PM
But keep in mind the OP narrowed it down to hare, bobcat and hog.You didn't make the same stipulation; but with that said, I agree that it is enough for moderate sized hog, at typical range, with good shot placement.

:)

thaumaturgist
August 11, 2010, 09:36 PM
For starters, Maverick223, I know you're not writing hunting articles or seen on TV because the sermon you're preaching puts you in a small minority of hunter/shooters. That means most people wouldn't care to hear what you have to say and they sure wouldn't pay to hear such drivel. And yes it is a waste of your time writing on this blog because with your talent, you are severely limiting your audience. The shooting and hunting world desperately needs your guidance. Heck, I don't know how those gun writers who use big guns to make up for their poor marksmanship can even make a living without your counsel. In all honesty, I can tell you after reading what you've had to say here that the reason magazine publishers don't care for you very much has nothing to do with the rationalization you stated. You strongly push an ill-conceived minority view that a .223 is a good big game cartridge and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a poor shot who needs to practice more. Every blog that I've seen has a couple of people who like to push small rifles for large game and their entire argument boils down to "I've killed a zillion animals with my pop gun so it is all you ever need and if you use a bigger gun, then you are a poor shot." They never provide technical reasons for their wild success such as explaining why a 60/70 grain bullet breaks heavy bone and penetrates thick skin and muscle as well as a .308/.30-06. Or why the .22 caliber bullet kills just as well as a .30 caliber bullet even though it is a proven fact that the larger the frontal area of the bullet, the more impact is actually imparted to the target upon impact. Or why a .22 caliber hole causes more blood loss than a .30 caliber hole. The reason there is never any explanations like this is because this is all bogus. If you had facts that backed up your argument, you wouldn't have to attack people by accusing them of being poor marksman.

MCgunner
August 11, 2010, 09:43 PM
I don't own a center fire .22 and don't have the urge. I don't like rifles with pistol grips on 'em for field/hunting use. Don't like the ergos. I have a .22 mag and several .22LRs for small to coyote sized game. I also have shotguns for rabbits. My first love is wing shooting, therefore, the shotguns. I own 20 gauge, 16 gauge, 12 gauge, and 10 gauge. I have a choice of .357 magnum, 7.62x39, .257 Roberts, .308 Winchester, and 7mm Rem Mag as well as a couple of mil surps in 8x57 for hunting rifles. I really don't want to go buy a .223 for hogs just because you all seem to think it's the best possible choice for anything up to elephants and hogs are nothing. :rolleyes: My other calibers haven't failed me, yet, with good shot placement, even that wimpy 7 mag. Now, I'm going to be using mostly a 50 cal this year, a front stuffer. I just don't think of an AR or the .223 as the ultimate hog gun.....sorry. Yes, I am an excellent rifle shot. If I wasn't, I wouldn't want to use a front stuffer. I'd be into firepower, spray and pray, ARs with 20 round mags. :neener:

DIM
August 11, 2010, 09:44 PM
22 LR I find very useful, but I usually limit it to bunnies and tree rats, I like to use them in my back yards with subsonic ammo to keep noise down, here's the latest trespasser, 30 - 40 yards but I can practice everyday ;-)
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5662/zaj2.jpg

do you recognize where did the bullet go ;-)

MCgunner
August 11, 2010, 09:52 PM
Looks like a neck shot. Yummy. :D

thaumaturgist
August 11, 2010, 09:57 PM
The "largest big game hunting club on the planet" my have blessed you, but there is no way that ANY hunting club would endorse the idea that a .223 is just as effective as a larger gun on pig or any other big game animal. If you want the rest of us to believe you, provide the link where we can read this endorsement for ourselves. Also, using the army as an example of why the .223 is a good big game round shows your ignorance. The military considers a wound as good as a kill and anyone who has been paying attention to Iraq and Afganistan has heard the the .223 has some not insignificant limitations, hence the development of the 6.5 Grendal, 6.8 SPC, .458 SOCUM, .500 Beowulf. Hunting an animal that you plan to recover and killing someone in combat are dramatically different things.

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 10:07 PM
For starters, Maverick223, I know you're not writing hunting articles or seen on TV because the sermon you're preaching puts you in a small minority of hunter/shooters.For starters you might want to back up and read my posts. Don't look at my name and thing that I am the ultimate proponent for .223Rem. for elephant hunting, look at my name and realize that I am very knowledgeable about one particular platform that happens to be chambered in .223Rem. (actually 5.56NATO), one that is unusual and different and that I have made my own with significant modification to the original design...making me a "maverick". Furthermore you need to understand that some folks here have proven to have a great deal of experience, and despite your disagreement, you might want to first check your facts, and secondly wait till you're here at least a week before spouting disparaging comments to members in good standing. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/nono.gif

You strongly push an ill-conceived minority view that a .223 is a good big game cartridge and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a poor shot who needs to practice more.Please cite where I have ever stated that the .223Rem. (or any other .22 caliber cartridge) is a good large game cartridge. You might want to take a hard look at post no. 45 for clarification. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/footinmouth.gif

Or why the .22 caliber bullet kills just as well as a .30 caliber bullet even though it is a proven fact that the larger the frontal area of the bullet, the more impact is actually imparted to the target upon impact.That is not necessarily true, that depends on many factors that you have not addressed.

Or why a .22 caliber hole causes more blood loss than a .30 caliber hole.That isn't always (or often) true either.

If you had facts that backed up your argument, you wouldn't have to attack people by accusing them of being poor marksman.Cite where I have ever stated such a comment...look hard, go back into the archives, because I didn't in this thread or another. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/footinmouth.gif

Purgatory
August 11, 2010, 10:08 PM
Wow. That's a nice "picture-taker" and excellent pics. I admit I'll be using a few of those for screensavers. With your name on 'em, I'll be marketing for you for free.

Hey, isn't that a pig (speak of the devil :evil:) right there in the middle of that dirt road in the second to last pic?

And, by all means, go see about that bed! ;)

thaumaturgist
August 11, 2010, 10:32 PM
Maverick223, one of your statements: "I was thinking the same thing...some of those "professionals" need to practice more." What did you mean?

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 10:54 PM
Maverick223, one of your statements: "I was thinking the same thing...some of those "professionals" need to practice more." What did you mean?That was meant in jest, though in many cases it holds true. Some of the "professionals" that you see on television or read about in magazines aren't as skilled or knowledgeable as they claim to be. In fact many are not professional in any sense of the word. Additionally most cater to corporations that stand to make a profit on their publication/show (notice the advertisements that immediately follow their reviews).

thaumaturgist
August 11, 2010, 10:56 PM
Maverick223, I realize that there are people on this site that have alot of experience. You need to realize that just because someone is new to the site doesn't mean that they are any less experienced. From what I've read over the last few days, Fernando, with only 33 posts, seems to have more experience than some of those that have been on this site for awhile. Since you are the expert on modified ARs in 5.56mm, why didn't you jump in early on this discussion and set the record straight on the first day? The original question didn't involve a .223 at all, yet, like at every site I've been to, someone jumped in and started preaching its virtues on pigs. There have been some wild statements on this discussion and you finally made a firm disagreement in post #83 and even then you said that they had gone a "wee bit too far". Post #82 exposed just how ludicrous some of these posts were, yet your disagreement was still rather mild. A maverick AR expert with over 7000 posts on this site could sure help out someone trying to show a little sanity to a discussion that got diverted to a caliber in his area of expertise.

thaumaturgist
August 11, 2010, 11:02 PM
For some reason, everyone in this discussion seems to believe that what I refered to as a "professional hunter" is a famous gun/hunting writer. Notice that I made a distinction between the two by listing them both. a professional hunter is someone who makes a living from hunting, not necessarily writing about it. Let me put it this way, the next time you book a hunt for pigs, antelope, deer, etc. tell the guide you plan on bringing a .223 and see what he says.

Maverick223
August 11, 2010, 11:10 PM
You need to realize that just because someone is new to the site doesn't mean that they are any less experienced.I didn't accuse you of being inexperienced, because I don't know your experience level. I simply stated that you need to cool off and refrain from disparaging and insulting commentary, or to be honest you aren't likely to be here very long. This is TheHighRoad after all.

Since you are the expert on modified ARs in 5.56mm, why didn't you jump in early on this discussion and set the record straight on the first day?You are misinformed, ARs aren't my bag. Additionally it isn't my place to "set the record straight" WRT using .223Rem. for large game hunting, as I have made it clear that it isn't my chosen cartridge for the task, and I haven't enough experience to refute the claim.

Post #82 exposed just how ludicrous some of these posts were, yet your disagreement was still rather mild.As I feel it should be, from all reasonable accounts the .223Rem. can perform fine on moderate size hog as well as deer, as long as care is taken in choosing a suitable load and shot placement.

For some reason, everyone in this discussion seems to believe that what I refered to as a "professional hunter" is a famous gun/hunting writer.
You simply stated "professionals"...then went on to talk about television show hosts and magazine article authors (as seen below).
A couple of you obviously are expert marksmen and amazing hunters, exhibiting more hunting and shooting skill than the professionals who do it everyday. So why are you wasting your time on a blog? Why haven't I seen your articles in the hunting magazines and seen you on TV?

DIM
August 11, 2010, 11:11 PM
not sure if they exist, they were abundant at the beginning of the last century, they only places were they can be found nowadays are native tribes, or maybe I don't understand what did you mend as professional, I just don't see how can anyone survive just on hunting alone with all the state regulations and equipment cost...

Nematocyst
August 11, 2010, 11:31 PM
And this is where we all take a deep breath, go outside for a walk,
then return hours or days from now to continue the discussion
with camaraderie, understanding that misunderstanding happens,
and that we are walking on the high road.

Purgatory
August 11, 2010, 11:37 PM
Very well put, Nematocyst. Every time this thread shows up w a response I check it and these three are still battling it out with the bones of the dead and rotting horse. :uhoh:

I think it's time we agree to disagree, fellas. :D

Done, done. On to the next one.

DIM
August 11, 2010, 11:58 PM
and when you thought it is all over... hold I heard that .204 ruger is very good caliber ;-) never had one, but I have buddy who swears it can be used on soft targets size of the pig :-)) it uses 22-250 brass but neck sized to accept 20 cal bullets, what I heard its very fast and very deadly...

Maverick223
August 12, 2010, 12:05 AM
.204 ruger [...] it uses 22-250 brass but neck sized to accept 20 cal bulletsNope, it is .222RM necked down to .20cal. Still a flat shootin' booger (somewhere in the neighborhood of .22-250/.220Swift).

:)

DIM
August 12, 2010, 12:23 AM
Thank you Maverick, I just learn it myself did a search on it... It is fast 40 gr travels 4000 fps with energy to drop good size deer that's 1800 joules.. that's a lot of energy...

Robert Wilson
August 12, 2010, 02:03 AM
Fernando, those photographs are remarkable! Does all of Portugal look like it came out of a painting?

MCgunner
August 12, 2010, 08:11 AM
Well, after ALL THIS, I think the OP should buy two rifles, a 308 for pigs and a .22 for small game. I mean, a good Marlin M60 ain't that expensive. :D

FLAvalanche
August 12, 2010, 09:03 AM
At this point I just laugh.

tinygnat219
August 12, 2010, 09:09 AM
I don't know, call me wierd or something. I tend to really not care what someone hunts with as long as it's legal.

Personally, I am a .30-06 Springfield man. When I first got into hunting and investigating all the rounds out there, I noticed that a lot of items were compared to the .30-06. I figured after seeing a 50 dollar box for some wierd round, that I should at least look at the .30-06. Ammo was suddenly a lot cheaper, and I found a used Remington 721 with a scope for under 300 dollars. I also found that M2 Ball Surplus ammo allowed me to get some good trigger time and get used to the rifle. I've also noticed that when I forgot my ammo at home in a rush to get packed for a hunting trip, that Wal-Mart stocks at least a soft point or two in that caliber and the disaster was averted. If I had used some WWJD round, I might have been SOL.

Fernando
August 12, 2010, 10:13 AM
Here is a runner. Was shot with an 180gr 30.06 federal trophy bonded bearclaw at night, with a 3-12x56 RD. The bullet hit him in the lungs right after the front legs and the blood sprayed to the back with all the running. It is forbidden here in Portugal to illuminate the animals so it was dark, with some moonlight. I took the shot to the valley as soon has I saw where the boar’s head was (we always need to know were the head is but only to know where the other vitals are - heart and lungs). Here boars only come out at night (usually you don’t see them during the day unless in summer larger days), so in most hunts you just hear some noise (corn cracking from smashing teeth) and see a dark target, sometimes even in the shadows (older boars avoid putting their feet in the moonlight, they walk by the darker areas). In these conditions, we need a margin of 10 to 15 cm (4 to 6 inches) to prevent that a non detectable movement of the boar’s body (we are from 70 to 100 meters away, sometimes ever further) make us ruin the rest of the night forcing us to track a dangerous wounded animal in the bushes. This guy, although mortally shot, run for more than 70 meters. After the glare we can’t see sh*t for a few seconds so we can only hear his footsteps and bush breaking. Luckily he stopped in a clean area.

My father on the right:
http://i37.tinypic.com/b88p3l.jpg


Quoting Purgatory: “Hey, isn't that a pig (speak of the devil) right there in the middle of that dirt road in the second to last pic?”

Nop, but here is a small bastard:

http://i35.tinypic.com/332mmad.jpg

This one was taken with a 35mm pentax in panoramic mode some yeas ago. I bet that if you see a bunch of these guys coming out of the bushes 8 or 10 meters away from you, at night, you would trade a .223 for a larger caliber real fast, lol. We cannot use automatic weapons here, only semi-automatics (with two bullets in the magazine and one in the chamber – max) and bolt actions. These boars are medium size (60 to 70 kg):

http://i35.tinypic.com/5ffcjd.jpg

Quote: Does all of Portugal look like it came out of a painting?”

We have a great climate because we are the western country of Europe, very close to Africa and the Mediterranean see, and half of our country faces the Atlantic ocean (to the west and south). Terrorists don’t give a flying f*** about us so we receive tourists from all parts of the world, lol

Miles and miles of beaches
http://i38.tinypic.com/vx0wo4.jpg

With some rough terrain too, lol
http://i33.tinypic.com/29ll0s0.jpg

Some villages by the sea
http://i36.tinypic.com/eiw40x.jpg

In the interior of the country we have less people and houses
http://i37.tinypic.com/2ymvwxf.jpg

Young people left for big cities, leaving only few old people in interior villages
http://i36.tinypic.com/zvoh29.jpg

Well, it’s old europe
http://i33.tinypic.com/2apbbq.jpg

It’s all very quiet and peaceful
http://i33.tinypic.com/2j2w9i0.jpg

We don’t have dangerous animals like bears ou poison snakes, just imbecile dogs, lololol. Here’s mine
http://i38.tinypic.com/fd81lh.jpg

But they are a real help spotting small and big game (don’t require much training).
http://i34.tinypic.com/oaxkxs.jpg

Small country but lots of fun things to do :D
http://i36.tinypic.com/nsvwz.jpg

Fernando
August 12, 2010, 12:36 PM
Quoting Purgatory: “Hey, isn't that a pig (speak of the devil) right there in the middle of that dirt road in the second to last pic?”

http://i38.tinypic.com/1z6tru8.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/3roqp.jpg

Mystery solved, lol

Purgatory
August 12, 2010, 10:35 PM
That's hilarious, Fernando. I even blew the pic way up and it looked like a light colored pig with big upper torso and head and smaller back end. Please offer your faithful hound my sincerest apologies. :D

Wow, I think you're one of the luckiest people alive today. You say all the young people moved away to the bigger cities? -And you live THERE?

You've got one heck of a nice corner of the globe there. I wouldn't rather live anywhere else.

Your pics are excellent. Everyone one of 'em. If you could manage to take that quality of pics on your upcoming hunts throughout the hunt, I would certainly take the time to check out the thread about it. That's fantastic.

Thanks for teasing us with all that is taken for granted around there.

Carry on. :)

P.S. LOVE how you just pick up the dead hog and toss him in the back of the Benz.

Fernando
August 13, 2010, 07:59 AM
Quote: “You say all the young people moved away to the bigger cities? -And you live THERE?”

I live in the big city too, in Lisbon, Portugal’s capital, but spend most of weekends, holidays and vacations in those lands, that are 200km away from Lisbon.

Quote: “Please offer your faithful hound my sincerest apologies”

My dog has forgiven you. Please accept the rabbit, lololololol

http://i36.tinypic.com/dbsd5g.jpg


Quote: “If you could manage to take that quality of pics on your upcoming hunts throughout the hunt”

Have lots of pics in small game hunts, with the dog, but in big game hunts I usually let the gun speak prior to the canon (the 350D makes noise when lifting the mirror to take the picture, or to rotate some of the lenses, and boars would hear it and run). And my girlfriend prefers the bacon to a good pic :D

If someone opens a thread about hunting pictures I will post a few pics.

Quote: “LOVE how you just pick up the dead hog and toss him in the back of the Benz”

Well, it’s not so funny when you go alone, lol. The damn dog never helps in the picking up part and you end up covered in blood like a vampire. When they are obviously bigger, I use the towing hook and drag them, but when facing a medium sized I always end up saying: “I can do it, I can lift it”, lol. And once you started the task, you will try desperately to finish it. That’s when things get messy, lolol

http://i34.tinypic.com/2822d1d.jpg

Purgatory
August 13, 2010, 10:40 PM
Oh, that ol' chewed up thing? It looks more like he's daring me to take it. :D

Well, it's great to see what you're missing in the world.

Hope to see more of your adventures.

Maybe someone will start a good hunting thread soon.

Deer season isn't far off and hog is in season all year round in my neck o' the woods.

Maybe I'll get a chance to put some pics together of my coming hog hunt.

Happy Hunting. ;)

elorenzo
August 23, 2010, 12:03 PM
243 or 7mm-08 either will do and both are plenty flat and accurate

Bluenote
August 26, 2010, 05:33 AM
RE: I can't see arguing about it. Most anything mentioned above is going to drop a hog. They don't need much killing..... If you do a whole bunch of aiming.

I don't know what planet you hunt hog on, but on earth pigs do indeed require much killing. And FLAvalanche, I'm sure that you have killed pigs with your kid's cap gun, but you seem to be the only person on earth that can hit a pig and guarantee that it goes nowhere. The last one I shot was with a .500 S&W Magnum through both lungs and it fell, got up and ran about 50 yards. It died in brush so thick that we didnt feel safe going in until the next day. Anyone who says that they can guaranatee a big game animal drops or only runs a few yards with a lung/shoulder shot simply isn't leveling with us. All you .223 fans, go ahead and spin your yarns. You're either not as experienced as you claim or you own a magical, mystical lightning-bolt of a .223 that the rest of us don't possess. It isn't legal in many places for big game, no professional hunters use or recommend it on big game, the makers and marketers don't recommend it on big game, and hunting journalists don't recommend it. So the vast majority of the most experienced hunters in the world are either wrong or the few of you are. I know who my money is on.
..............................................................


I've got to agree with the above. I hunt hogs quite regularly and with quite a passion , they're the scourge of the earth around here. And for the record , if you insist on carrying a .223 you won't go with me , nor will *any* guide hereabouts take you out and you won't get access to most of the private land. There's been a couple of incidents in the last couple of years with folks getting zipped by hogs because they were well undergunned and one of those was with an AR , guy walked up on the hog after shooting it twice in the boileroom with his .223 and it got up and lived long enough to come very close to killing him before one of his buddies put three .44 mags in it. In the Brush I personally use a .44 mag with the same load I use for bear defense ( 300 grain XTP over 21.5-22 grains ww296 or h110) or a .30-30 with stout 170s or my old reliable guide gun in .45-70 , longer ranges 7mm mag ,.257 roberts ( with careful shot selection and placement) , shot a few with the .375 rum. Over the years I've shot them with many different calibers from .243 to .416 mag. But then again I shoot more hogs in a year than many folks do in decades , last year was a light year and I still took over fifty.

The chances of wounding a hog with too light of a caliber and having to track it in heavy brush are too fraught with bad consequences to go out undergunned , especially here where 300 and up is fairly normal and 400 and up is quite common. And around here it's almost gauranteed that if you would one it's going into heavy brush in one of the canyons , in addition we're so over-run with the beasties that the family groups are fairly large and quite bold , I recently shot one from my front porch that ignored my dogs and the fact that I bounced rocks off him in an attempt to get him to leave my garden , a 300 grain A-frame over 100 grains of IMR7828 at just under 3000 fps out of my .375 rum (26 inch shilen barrel) solved the problem quite nicely. Could I have utilised something else , of course I could , .45-70 ,.35 whelen and one down the scale to .22-250 a.i. ( my coyote rig) but I wanted him anchored to the spot and DEAD.

And certain folks here can natter on nonsensically all they care to about .223 , I've seen too many hogs run off when hit fair and square with too light a caliber , in addition I've seen too many folks use a lightly constructed slug and have it break up on the rib plates or on a shoulder.

Anyone recommending .223 as an ideal hog round is handing out exceeding bad advice ,period. ANd said advice could have deleterious consequences to the individual having to track a wounded hog into heavy brush/cover and dispatch a wounded animal. But hey what would I know ,I've only been shooting the ugly b*****ds for 35 years.

Bluenote
August 26, 2010, 05:45 AM
RE: I can't see arguing about it. Most anything mentioned above is going to drop a hog. They don't need much killing..... If you do a whole bunch of aiming.

I.................................................

Whatever. You also don't have what would be considered large hogs , and don't bother argueing the point with *me* , I've quite literally hunted hogs from coast to coast in this country ,including down in your neck of the woods and the rest of the southeast , try that live catch stuff out here on the west coast and you'll get a bunch of dogs killed and get sliced up right quick like.

By the way the one I spoke of that i shot in my garden went 517 lbs. And spare us the " I'll take the advice of the worlds largest hunting club the U.S. Army" , because that's a load of rubbish.

And said rubbish that you're spouting is potentially dangerous to the inexperienced individual , you do them a grave disservice with such socalled advice. Recommending that someone go out undergunned for potentially dangerous game is irresponsible.

Fernando
August 26, 2010, 07:52 AM
Last friday I went to the forest in late afternoon and seated my ass in the deepest part of a valley. The boxes with the corn were 90 meters above, at the middle of the next hill. There was some light in the sky when I arrived, so I tried to be completely silent. When true darkness hit me in the valley, I heard noise about 15 to 20 meters to my left and rear. A pack of boars had spend the day in the freshness of the valley, heard me coming and awaited for the dark to leave, lol. The area had heavy and tall bushes so I couldn’t take a shot. I had to stay there and hear all those pigs find their way out.

Luckily there were no small pigs in the pack, because if there were their mother would have looked around for me in the dark, lolol. It wouldn’t be the first time they do that.

Trust me, there are times when even my 30.06 seems quite small, lol.

FLAvalanche
August 26, 2010, 08:21 AM
Anyone recommending .223 as an ideal hog round is handing out exceeding bad advice ,period.

What you really need to do is pay attention to what people post before you jump on your soap box. Nobody here said it was ideal. The OP wanted a single rifle to hunt coyote, hog and hares.

I feel the .223/5.56 platform is a good choice for what the OP wants.

No, I don't have a magical .223. And hogs aren't the mystical beasts that shake off 155mm howitzer rounds you make them out to be.

You won't have to worry about me wanting to hunt with you or any of your guides.

Art Eatman
August 26, 2010, 11:50 AM
The OP's concerns were pretty well answered on Page 1, when you get right down to the nitty-gritty.

Fernando, thanks very much for some beautiful photography. Feel free to start a thread any time with your hunting pictures.

But enough for now...

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