.45 ACP question


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Ironsight
August 8, 2010, 05:55 PM
Reloading .45ACP into good used brass of multiple brands. Bullet = Hornady .451 XTP Hollow point.
Guns: Colt Series '70 Govt. Model and New In Box Copy of Model of 1911 U.S. Army
Problem: Cartridge will not chamber in either gun.
Measurements:
Cartridge diameter up to where bullet is seated = .465" .
Cartridge diameter at mouth of casing = .472" and RCBS Carbide die will not crimp to compress to smaller diameter.

What am I doing wrong assuming the bullet is in fact .451dia. (I don't have any to measure as all 200 of them are stuck in to brass) Is there a seater adjustment that will do the trick?

Thanks in advance.

Ironsight

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Jim Watson
August 8, 2010, 06:02 PM
What is the OAL?
Hornady's truncated cone shape requires a bit deeper seating than other brands.

loadedround
August 8, 2010, 06:12 PM
Have you removed the case flare from your expander die? I believe that's your problem and you can correct that by giving your loaded round just a "kiss" of crimp from your seating/crimping die. Just adjust your die to remove any flare(case mouth expansion) and you should be good to go.

Drail
August 8, 2010, 08:29 PM
If you hold a round up to a light and look down the side of the case you should be able to see if the flare has been completely removed by the crimp die. (without measuring it) If you can still se any flare adjust your crimp die to give a little more (screw it further into the press. If you're seating and crimping in one operation with the same die try backing off the die so that it does not crimp and screw the seater in to get the OAL you want and then back off the seater stem and screw down the die until it stars applying a crimp. Use the barrel pulled out of your gun for a chamber checker and see if the round will drop in and fully seat and then fall back out just from its own weight. I prefer to seat in one operation and crimp in another. Also make sure your chamber is squeaky clean with no fouling to hang up the rounds.

pcwirepro
August 8, 2010, 08:45 PM
As Drail mentioned, have the barrel (not the assembled firearm) at the loading bench when building ammo. If you drop the round in the barrel and get a distinct "clink" and the rounds falls out freely when the barrel is inverted then you're in good shape as far as dia/crimp goes.

ljnowell
August 8, 2010, 08:46 PM
I seat 230gr xtps to 1.225" for my 1911, glock, and xd.

rfwobbly
August 8, 2010, 09:37 PM
As Drail mentioned, have the barrel (not the assembled firearm) at the loading bench when building ammo. If you drop the round in the barrel and get a distinct "clink" and the rounds falls out freely when the barrel is inverted then you're in good shape as far as dia/crimp goes.

+1 on ljnowell

Except I'm fairly anal, so I would add these additional pointers:
• Move the crimp die downward to increase the taper crimp in very small increments.
• As soon as the rounds start falling all the way into the naked barrel, DO NOT add additional crimp. STOP! More is not better.
• You'll need 5-8 of your standard rounds to do this because the brass has a slight spring-back quality. So while crimps from (for instance) .473 down to .468 are easy. Re-crimping from .469 to .468 can't be accurately done. So for each die adjustment, test the new setting with a new round.

;)

Walkalong
August 8, 2010, 09:41 PM
Factory loads em at 1.233ish. (1.230 to 1.235)

and RCBS Carbide die will not crimp to compress to smaller diameter.
The RCBS carbide sizer has nothing to do with crimp, so I do not understand this.

Your seater does the crimping, and can be adjusted to give way to much crimp, or the die is defective. Probably not though.

You need just enough crimp to remove the bell and maybe a hair more. That's all. No more.

.45 ACP Crimp pics (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6284211&postcount=63) with various bullets.

A thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678) that may prove helpful.

bds
August 8, 2010, 10:53 PM
First of all, are you sure the case neck flare is causing the chambering problem?

With the barrel out of the pistol, drop in a newly sized case in the chamber. If it does not drop in freely, check your resizing die adjustment to make sure you are full-length sizing the cases (bottom of the die just kisses the top of shell holder/plate).

When the sized cases drop in freely into the chamber, then check the taper crimp of the case. On a recent thread, loaded rounds with about 0.47" diameter dropped in freely into the chamber with a "clink". All of the factory and my reloaded rounds measured right around 0.47" diameter.

If the sizing and taper crimp measurements are OK and your loaded rounds still wont chamber fully, then check the OAL. You can paint the bullet with a marker and spin the round in chamber to see if your bullet nose is hitting the rifling.

Walkalong's threads are great for determining maximum OAL and taper crimp for your barrels/rounds.

I hope this helps.

Ironsight
August 10, 2010, 06:41 PM
Thanks for the advice. Careful analysis determined I had set the seater die wrong which distorted the casing at the casing-butt-of-bullet interface as I cam-overed when I seated the bullet. (A no-no according to the instructions) The only way I can make the cartridge fit into the chamber is to run the bullet thru again with a super-crimp which would increase the chamber pressure to an horrific amount.

I've got 200 rounds to dispose of as there is no way to extract the bullet from the casing.

Thanks again.

pcwirepro
August 10, 2010, 07:23 PM
I had set the seater die wrong which distorted the casing at the casing-butt-of-bullet interface as I cam-overed when I seated the bullet.

Is there a bulge in the case?

The only way I can make the cartridge fit into the chamber is to run the bullet thru again with a super-crimp which would increase the chamber pressure to an horrific amount.


what's a super crimp? More often than not more crimp adds dimension making the round harder to chamber. Do you have a factory crimp die. Might serve as a crutch on these 200 rounds but I wouldnt rely on it in the future.

Ironsight
August 10, 2010, 10:11 PM
Is there a bulge in the case?
Bulge is at mid-length of case at the base of the bullet.

what's a super crimp?
The crimp at the mouth of the casing bites into and indents the bullet. I am afraid it will result in a chamber pressure of a hand grenade.

Do you have a factory crimp die.
RCBS Carbide 3 piece set: sizer, expander and seater.

Iron Sight
August 10, 2010, 11:54 PM
You dont mention what the overall length of your completed reload is. If it is too long you may be trying to force the projectile into the rifling of the barrel?

HOWARD J
August 11, 2010, 07:13 AM
Get yourself a Dillion 45acp case gage--then you don't have to
use your gun to see if the ammo is correct size.
About $14.00 + frt.

Ironsight
August 11, 2010, 08:57 AM
OAL = 1.2. The cartridge hangs up at the selling at mid casing.

pcwirepro
August 11, 2010, 09:24 AM
OAL = 1.2. The cartridge hangs up at the selling at mid casing.

Sounds like they have buckled during the seat/crimp operation. I see two options; tear them all down or run them through a Factory Crimp Die. When I first started reloading I had similar issues with the second hand dies I was using. I bought the FCD for every caliber I was loading. Now that I have figured out how to get perfect seat/crimp out of my standard dies I rarely use the FCD.

Ironsight
August 11, 2010, 09:51 AM
Running them thru an FCD will salvage them? I hope so! I literally manicured the casings before I shoved the bullet into them.

Who makes the FCD and where do I get one?

Thanks again.

Ironsight

Jim Watson
August 11, 2010, 10:01 AM
That is the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die.
At the top it has a tapered sleeve to apply a crimp, at the bottom it has a carbide ring slightly larger than the one in the resizing die to iron out lumps and bulges.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=716704

At first I thought you had loaded too long and were jamming the jacketed bullet into the rifling. Now it appears you may be too short and are throwing up a bulge in the taper of the case wall. Try the next batch about 1.23" and chamber check before you run off a big supply.

rscalzo
August 11, 2010, 10:18 AM
Dillion or Wilson 45acp case gage
Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die

I use both on all my loads. Dropping the loaded round into the case gage will tell you if the crimp is not sufficient. Too much crimp in a bullet the does not have a cannelure such as plated rounds will distort to bullet.

Although I don't believe this is the problem, too little belling of the case might be causing a crush.

pcwirepro
August 11, 2010, 10:26 AM
Running them thru an FCD will salvage them? Maybe. After running a few through the FCD you should check to see if you still have sufficient neck tension. Push the tip of the round on the workbench to make sure it doesn't move.

Who makes the FCD and where do I get one?Do you buy reloading supplies locally? All of my local shops stock the FCD for all the popular calibers.

jmorris
August 11, 2010, 11:46 AM
I've got 200 rounds to dispose of as there is no way to extract the bullet from the casing.


Every reloader that doesn’t have money to burn should have an inertial bullet puller.

Less than $15 from midway.

http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/215517.jpg

rfwobbly
August 11, 2010, 01:05 PM
Thanks for the advice. Careful analysis determined I had set the seater die wrong which distorted the casing at the casing-butt-of-bullet interface as I cam-overed when I seated the bullet.

I've got 200 rounds to dispose of as there is no way to extract the bullet from the casing.

Not to rub salt in the wound or re-state the obvious, but careful analysis of the first 3 rounds could have saved a lot of trouble. Unloading 200 rounds is going to be fairly painful, and a lesson not soon to be forgotten. May I suggest you buy a Wilson cartridge gauge and use that in the future to make critical dimensional checks early and often. They offer a lot of benefit for $16.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=171349

All the best.

SSN Vet
August 11, 2010, 01:30 PM
Careful analysis determined I had set the seater die wrong which distorted the casing at the casing-butt-of-bullet interface as I cam-overed when I seated the bullet. (A no-no according to the instructions)

So were they seated too deep.... sounds like it to me...

If your all the way down into the taper, I wouldn't try to post size them. Rather, I'd give them a measured tap with a kinnetic puller. Just enough to move the bullet out slightly. Then run them through the seater again.

I run a 4 hole turret press and am happy to seat and crimp seperately.

I use the LFCD and I can tell what head stamp the brass is without looking, simply by the feel of the loaded round hitting the post sizing ring.

Fed. brass is the thickest and hits the post sizer "firmly" every time.

Win. or Spear brass just lightly touches it.

Aguila, RP, and CCI brass is the thinnest and doesn't touch at all.

I don't think that in any instance, you should be smashing a bulge out by post sizing.

dc.fireman
August 11, 2010, 07:26 PM
Not to rub salt in the wound or re-state the obvious, but careful analysis of the first 3 rounds could have saved a lot of trouble. Unloading 200 rounds is going to be fairly painful, and a lesson not soon to be forgotten. --rfwobbly

And unfortunately, it's one we've all gone through. Bullet pullers are worth their weight in gold. If you stick around here for awhile, you'll find that this forum is a wealth of information. You just learned a critical one, and like me, learned it the hard way. Walkalong, rcmodel, bds, JimKirk, and sooo many others have taught me that, as excited as I am about reloading a new caliber, only do 10-15 of something, because it really is a PITA to tear them down. Whichever brand of puller you buy, try and get an extra cap if they have one - they seem to break at the most inconvenient time, as they're plastic. Good luck. I've never used the pullers that mount into the press, but with that many rounds to pull down, it might not be a bad investment.

-tc

Walkalong
August 11, 2010, 08:05 PM
I am new to reloading .30-30.

I ordered some RCBS dies. (Cause it's hard to go wrong with RCBS)

I very carefully set up the sizer a little at a time, loaded one (Yes, 1) round, and shot it at the range over the chrono. (2093 FPS)

I now have two pieces of range brass prepped, sized and primed for the next step. The two cases weigh 137.3 & 139.5 Grs.

Assuming it goes well, I'll most likely load 8 to 10 RP range brass that weighs about the same as the factory RP OF brass I will be loading for my son to hunt with. Brass shot in his gun. (Well, mine, but I bought it for him to hunt with) They will be shot over the chrono and on target.

I caught a great deal on a Bushnell 3 X 9 X 40 Elite 4200 which is now on the gun. (Old pic from right after I got it. I installed Leupold two piece bases and Leupold medium rings as well to mount the Bushnell.)

Anyway, the moral of the story, as dc.fireman pointed out, is never be afraid to load a small sample when starting a new caliber.

Added pics with new mounts. rings, and scope.

Ironsight
August 12, 2010, 09:40 AM
Here is a synopsis of the issues with the .45ACP debacle.:
Jim Watson was dead-on: I did not seat too deep. As a matter of fact I seated too shallow as there is ~ 1mm of parallel shaft of bullet projecting out of the mouth of the casing before the taper begins. Therein lies the problem. I pushed the bullet into the crimp and there was still some play in the press which pushed the case a little too far which caused the case to buckle at the base of the bullet (at mid-case). Still with me? Where I went wrong is I assumed the seater die was set correctly. It was not as in the interim from my last re-load of Hornady XTPs I had seated some round nose FMJs. Assumption is the Mother of all disasters. I have a press mount bullet puller that will not grasp the bullet taper sufficiently tight to enable extraction. I will procure a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die and run a few rounds thru it to see if it works and will report back to you. Hopefully I can salvage the 200 rounds (9#14oz) of cartridges.

Thanks again for all the help.

Ironsight

Walkalong
August 12, 2010, 01:25 PM
Where I went wrong is I assumed the seater die was set correctly. It was not as in the interim from my last re-load of Hornady XTPs I had seated some round nose FMJs.
Not the first time it's been done. Most of us have done exactly what you did. A good thorough log will help here. Always check your O.A.L. as recorded for that bullet when getting started. Same as you would do for the powder charge. Double check powder type and weight.

I have a couple of Redding micrometer seaters, as well as one Hornady seater with the optional micrometer top. I love them because I can record the setting in my load log and dial back to whatever bullet I am going to load. I have been saving my pennies and just bought a Redding for .44 Spl/.44 Mag. I set it up yesterday.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5766556&postcount=6


I am not an FCD fan, but it will probably salvage those loaded with the bulge. Next time just load em with out the bulge. :)

noylj
August 12, 2010, 02:34 PM
Making up one or two dummy rounds at the beginning and using the barrel just the way did is the "best" way to go. You don't "NEED" a case gauge. Your barrel is your best case gauge. The gauge just ensures that your reloads will fit in ALL properly chambered guns.

Ironsight
August 12, 2010, 02:45 PM
After pondering the data I removed the de-capping apparatus from the sizing die and set the die into the press at the proper depth. I then lubed the cartridge and ran it thru the sizing die. There was some resistance initially but after the top of the cartridge ran past the seated bullet the resistance abated. I removed the barrel from the 1911 and inserted the cartridge and it slid into the chamber hearing the familiar "clink" prescribed by pcwireless in his 8/8/2010 response and with perfect depth according to walkalong's drawings in the A thread link noted in his 8/8/210 response.

I can't imagine the bullet to be set into the case so snugly as to dangerously increase the chamber pressure at ignition......but!

Thoughts?

pcwirepro
August 12, 2010, 04:34 PM
All that work probably had the opposite effect on neck tension. Can you push the bullet into the case by pressing it on the bench? I think they'll fly just fine. Don't get one stuck in your sizer now.

Ironsight
August 12, 2010, 05:46 PM
All that work probably had the opposite effect on neck tension. Can you push the bullet into the case by pressing it on the bench? I think they'll fly just fine.

I agree. I can push the bullet .002-.003" farther into the casing with ~30# pressure applied by my thumb/index finger. The cartridge diameter at the mouth end (including the brass) is .463", down from the .472" before the re-size.

Thanks again for all the help.

bds
August 12, 2010, 08:56 PM
I can push the bullet .002-.003" farther into the casing with ~30# pressure applied by my thumb/index finger.
You should not be able to move a seated bullet with proper neck tension no matter how hard you push with your thumb/index finger.

Take out some factory ammo and calipers - I can't budge any of my factory/reloaded ammo.

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