[armslist]

I had a car door to dispose of so we decided to try out a few different rounds in a real world test to see how they performed.

The testing site:
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0254.jpg

First, a 22LR with a lead projectile out of a P22. It had no trouble at all punching through the outer layer of the door, but failed to break through any successive layers inside the door.

http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0266.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0267.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0268.jpg

A different 22LR ammo yielded similar results.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0271.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0272.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0273.jpg

The KelTec P3AT passed through a part of the door where it didn't hit subsequent layers, so that part of the test is inconclusive.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0277.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0278.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0279.jpg


The 38 special wadcutters out of the snubby didn't make it through the inner layer. of the door.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0281.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0282.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0283.jpg

[hso]

Cars are more concealment than cover. The only reliable protection they provide is along the axels or engine.

[armslist]

The 357s had no trouble with the inner layers, even out of the short barrel.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0284.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0285.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0286.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0287.jpg


The 45 ACP was effective at breaking through all 3 layers regardless of the ammo type or length of the barrel.

The 3.5" barrel was sufficient to pierce all 3 with both FMJs and hollow points.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0304.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0305.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0306.jpg

There were a few 45 rounds that didn't make it all the way through, it only seemed to happen when they hit a very thick portion of the inner frame, or if they hit on a seam of some type that deflected it, the majority went all the way through.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0297.jpg

But most of the time, the 45 prevailed.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0316.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0301.jpg
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0302.jpg


After a few mags, the end result is pretty telling.
http://cdn.armslist.com/media/ballistics-test/IMAG0318.jpg



We wish we could have tested .40 and 9mm, but nobody had one with them at the range that day.
We will include those next time, and some targets behind the door to see what kind of damage they could do after the steel slows them down a bit.

[armslist]

Cars are more concealment than cover. The only reliable protection they provide is along the axels or engine.

Agreed. This test is real world confirmation that the car door isn't stopping much.

[Mags]

Great info, thanks. I wonder how 9mm and 40S&W would fare?

[armslist]

Great info, thanks. I wonder how 9mm and 40S&W would fare?

I know, we really wanted to try them out as well, but didn't have any available that day at the range.

[Oyeboten]

Nice test!


I like seeing basic pragmatic testings like this.


Car Door at an acute Angle...might be alright for cover...but at 90 degrees or so, the Modern Cars generally, yup, the Doors will not stop major Handgun Caliber Bullets.

[Deltaboy]

I have shot my 40 using 165 grain Ranger ammo and it punchs all the way trough a car door.

[Sgt_R]

Further reading for anyone interested in the subject:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

[bigalexe]

Out of curiosity has anyone tried to shoot through the door from the inside at close range?

The reason i ask is that I have a scenario that gets in my head and wonder how it would work:
-A person comes up to your car door and attempts to harm you, said person does not know have a gun in your jacket on the left side. So you reach in your jacket with your right hand and aim out the door (we are assuming like 2 feet away so aiming shouldn't be hard) and fire through the door into the attacker.

If this was done in a movie I did not see it, so that's not where the idea came from.

[Lee Roder]

IIRC, the original 357 magnum cartridge arose out of just such a test

[WardenWolf]

The US military did just such a test, and it's the reason they're going back to a .45 caliber submachine gun. The 9mm just didn't provide acceptable penetration after passing through a car door. The .45 was still very lethal.

[Palehorseman]

I saw where army is going to .50 Beowulf uppers at checkpoints in BG country, can penetrate common vehicles stem to stern, as well as dismantling engine blocks, transmissions etc.

[gym]

Can I borrow that door? But seriouslly, it depends on the door the angls and the material that the door is made from. Not all doors are alike. I would like to see this done on an older car like and old caddy or chevy with the heavy steel doors. Like a door from every decade starting with the 70's, I would bet that those old cars had some thick ass steel doors. I remember 38's deflecting off the doors and windows of getaway cars, "back in the day" that was one reason for the 357. Maybe we can chip in and do a test, that would be fun. Hit it with different calibers and different types of ammo. Mas said recentlly that you should have a rifle that could pierce a car door, in one of his articles when discussing gang violence in certain states. i don't want to mis quote him, but it was close to that.He was discussing the problems in Arizona and the home grown terrorist type camps along the border.

[Vonderek]

An interesting follow up study would be to have a block of ballistic gel behind the door.

[ccjcc81]

Thanks for the excellent post. Keep them coming.



An interesting follow up study would be to have a block of ballistic gel behind the door.

+1,
I googled "how to make homemade ballistics gell" a while ago and found great recipes.

[WardenWolf]

For a more thorough test like this, check out http://www.theboxotruth.com. They tested on an old Buick, from multiple angles, with multiple pistols and rifles. It is a huge eye-opener. You do NOT want to use a car as cover. It is suicide. Their protection is almost nil.

[ForumSurfer]

I love experiments like those. It's not quite real world, but you can't truly get "real world" without getting into real circumstance. I'm not shooting my dad's classic truck just for conversation sake, nor am I going to shoot my newer trucks doors with all panels intact. This does, however...bring alot of realities bout cover and concealment to light.

I had a friend who had a theory that a laptop hard drive's casing would stop a round. Well, I had one that died and had a ridiculously slow processor, so I figured killing it would be more fun than salvaging it and putting some obscure form of Linux on it. Besides, it was a touchscreen, and the tablet function was neat, but now defunct. Netbooks are under $300 all day...so why not?

Shot number's one and two went (45) straight through the lid, battery and soft alloy (of some sort) rear cover. Shots 3 and 4 not only penetrated the hard drive (both sides of the housing, platters and all...but removed it from the laptop. I proceeded to empty about 50 rounds into it. I'll get around to testing a few hard drives I have laying around sometime with rifle calibers and maybe a 9mm or 40.

I should have documented the entire shoot, but it was just too much fun.

Lessons learned...this internet commando that I shot should have worn Kevlar. :D

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p188/johnnnyhgmail/DSCF0363-1.jpg

[Captcurt]

I shoot a hot loaded 180gr XTP in my 6" GP. It goes through both doors 90% of the time. Does wonders to an engine block, too.

[WardenWolf]

I keep forgetting to take a defunct Seagate laptop drive I have out to the range with me. Laptop drives most definitely won't stop a bullet. They're just aluminum housings, and often have glass platters. A .22LR would go clean through. A desktop drive, though, that's another story. There's a LOT of very strong, very rigid metal in those things. I've had to drill through a few old drives to properly decommission them, and it's not easy or quick. I think a desktop drive will stop most pistol rounds.

[cajun47]

i shoot 8' + gators in the head with fmj and corbon +p 9mm. almost all where one stop shots. when i used fmj or corbon +p .45acp i almost always had to shoot twice, the .45 slug would not go all the way in.

[Hatterasguy]

In a shoot out vehicals are death traps. The engine will provide some protection, as will the axles/wheels if you lie down.

But you want to get out fast, inside is a very bad place to be.

I have seen after action pictures of 5.56 rounds going through the back door of a new Suburban, going through the rear seat, front headrest and literaly turning the drivers head inside out before exiting through the windsheild. Vehicals are death traps in shootouts.

[Shadow 7D]

Go to Boxotruth.com
check out the Buick of Truth, very cool and look at the deflection from shooting a windshield.

[deadeyedog270]

nice thats all nice

[MachIVshooter]

Cars are more concealment than cover. The only reliable protection they provide is along the axels or engine.

Agreed. This test is real world confirmation that the car door isn't stopping much.

That is true. On the flip side, bullets really do have a difficult time getting through cars to incapacitate BG's in real-world shoot-outs. All kinds of different materials at funny angles to deflect them. I watched a police video once, IIRC, the SWAT team unloaded something like 120 rounds from their SMG's and service pistols into the SUV (I think it was a Tahoe). The BG was hit ONCE! and it was not a life-threatening injury (Arm or leg, I think). I'll try to find that clip.

But anyway......

Case in point, we had a '97 Honda civic with a blown engine that became target practice. It was a 100% in-tact automobile. Whether or not a bullet enters the passenger compartment is a flip of the coin. We shot that car with everything from .22's and shotguns to my AR-10, G-3 and Armalite AR-50. The very first round fired was a .50 BMG AP round from 50 yards, directly at the engine from the front of the car. Guess what? It failed to penetrate the block :eek: It passed through the bumper, radiator support, radiator, fan motor, catalytic converter and then struck an A/C compressor bolt (M10) right on the head and gouged it about 2/3 of the way down, even ripping the boss off the block. But that bullet would not have stopped the engine right away.

But more to the point, a stripped car door is one thing. A door that has a window with regulator, lock mechanisms, linkage, switches and panels, etc. is a whole 'nother ball game. .357 Magnum and 10mm auto rounds sometimes struck those internal components and failed to enter the passenger compartment. And this is a thin skinned little honda car, not an American SUV or older hunk of detroit steel.

My point is, while I wouldn't want to count on the passenger compartment of a car to provide protection from gunfire, I also hope my life never depends on incapacitating a driver with a handgun from outside the vehicle.

EDIT:

Here's that clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ummnOoSfd54

[CoastieShep]

I wouldn't depend on it, but if it's all I had, you'd better be sure I'd be using it to my best advantage.

[Owen Sparks]

Most people open car doors to roughly a .45 degree angle to get in and out, What if the shooter was directly in front of your car and you got out behind an angled door? If you kept your head down, would this provode enough temporary cover for you to get behind the vehicle?

[MachIVshooter]

Most people open car doors to roughly a .45 degree angle to get in and out, What if the shooter was directly in front of your car and you got out behind an angled door? If you kept your head down, would this provode enough temporary cover for you to get behind the vehicle?

Put it this way: What's your other option? ;) The vehicle is your only cover, and your only decision is whether to get back in or get more of it between you and the assailant. Obviously dependent on the exact situation, I'd say getting back in, keeping yourself below the window line and then using the vehicle to escape would be the best option. Lay across the console and passenger seat, jam that thing in gear and mash the accelerator! A handgun bullet getting through the hood/cowl, firewall and dash is incredibly unlikely.

But to answer more technically, the combination of the steel skin, the interinal components, and the probablility of deflection at that angle, I should think it would provide a reasonable amount of protection from handgun rounds.

If the BG has a rifle, however, I'd hope you've made your peace with god.

[Owen Sparks]

I once saw the aftermath of a gun accident where some bone head had a ND with a .45 and shot two cars. It struck the door of the first car at a sharp angle and made a 5 inch long dent. It removed a lot of paint but did not penitrate. It glanced squarly into the side of a pick up bed 15 feet away and made a big hole right behind the cab. It left only a small bump on on the inside wall of the bed and did not make it through the second layer.

[armslist]

Most people open car doors to roughly a .45 degree angle to get in and out, What if the shooter was directly in front of your car and you got out behind an angled door? If you kept your head down, would this provode enough temporary cover for you to get behind the vehicle?

If the door is open, and the shooter is in front of the car, I'm diving back into the vehicle and driving. Squatting behind the half-open door would not be my first choice.

[bigalexe]

Just an observation regarding car door tests:

When being tested to see if they provide adequate cover the answer is no, however on the flip side many tests to see if rounds are effective through doors is also no.

I guess the moral is that you should not use a door for cover, but also should not try to fire through a car door unless necessary.

[IdahoLT1]

EDIT:

Here's that clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ummnOoSfd54

Man that could have been way worse than it was. At :32 into the video, theres 3-4 SWAT officers firing upon the vehicle (presumably aiming for the suspects upper body i.e. window) with 2 SWAT officers, a sheriff and camera man right behind the target. Way, way too risky IMO. It was a good shoot but definately not the right angle or time.

[IdahoLT1]

Out of curiosity has anyone tried to shoot through the door from the inside at close range?

The reason i ask is that I have a scenario that gets in my head and wonder how it would work:
-A person comes up to your car door and attempts to harm you, said person does not know have a gun in your jacket on the left side. So you reach in your jacket with your right hand and aim out the door (we are assuming like 2 feet away so aiming shouldn't be hard) and fire through the door into the attacker.

If this was done in a movie I did not see it, so that's not where the idea came from.

If I was in that situation, I'd shoot through the window. My reasoning being that even in an average sized truck, shooting through the door will enter an average sized humans abdomen(gut). In a car, it will likely enter their hip/groin area. I wouldnt rate these as combat accurate/effective hits and the point is to stop the threat as soon as possible.

Shooting through the window might get some glass in your face(most will be projected outwards with from the impact of the bullet) but in a situation that warrants self defense, thats the least of the shooters immediate worries.

[Tim the student]

Cool test. Thanks.

I've shot into a car door with 5.56, and it was interesting to see that there were a lot of ricochets that happened inside the car door. I don't recall too many rounds that went straight through.

[gun guy]

actually the 41 magnum arose from requests from state police who found the 357 inadaquate for stopping vehicles. often it wouldn't crack the block, after punching thru the fender, and fenderwell of a 60's model truck. Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan were the brains that cooked up the 41 magnum truck stopper. well those guys knew how to design magnums, smith built them, the problem was, not everyone has the same idea on mild recoil. Most LEO's couldnt begin to handle that cannon. i understand when it debuted only 4 on the whole CHP were able to qualify with it. it was soon relegated to the hunting handgun class. these days most vehicles aren't made like old trucks, i would imagine your average import could be disabled with a 357 magnum with ease. heck maybe even a 25.

[Boris bush]

Me and some of my buddies did a similar test. But we had the window motor and all the other goodies still in there.

10mm and 357SIG will NOT penetrate a reinforced door beam or window motor. While if a 9mm got lucky and missed all that stuff it went all the way through. Even a 22rf mag would go all the way through if it missed the other layers. If you ever need to fire into a car body only quantity of rounds and luck will determine if you get any through to where they need to go to..

[ljnowell]

actually the 41 magnum arose from requests from state police who found the 357 inadaquate for stopping vehicles. often it wouldn't crack the block, after punching thru the fender, and fenderwell of a 60's model truck. Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan were the brains that cooked up the 41 magnum truck stopper. well those guys knew how to design magnums, smith built them, the problem was, not everyone has the same idea on mild recoil. Most LEO's couldnt begin to handle that cannon. i understand when it debuted only 4 on the whole CHP were able to qualify with it. it was soon relegated to the hunting handgun class. these days most vehicles aren't made like old trucks, i would imagine your average import could be disabled with a 357 magnum with ease. heck maybe even a 25.
Hate to say it, but that part about it often not cracking them isnt really true. I doubt there are any 357s that can crack a iron block, unless hitting an extremely weak part of the casting. as far as the new imports, most all engines are made of the same material now, aluminum.

[ForumSurfer]

Most people open car doors to roughly a .45 degree angle to get in and out, What if the shooter was directly in front of your car and you got out behind an angled door? If you kept your head down, would this provode enough temporary cover for you to get behind the vehicle?

Assuming the vehicle isn't disabled, I'd use the 5000 pound weapon to my advantage and duck below the steering wheel (and motor and firewall) as I drove at the aggressor...or leave the situation. :D

[MachIVshooter]

actually the 41 magnum arose from requests from state police who found the 357 inadaquate for stopping vehicles. often it wouldn't crack the block, after punching thru the fender, and fenderwell of a 60's model truck. Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan were the brains that cooked up the 41 magnum truck stopper.

It was not designed with mechanically disabling vehicles as one of the parameters. The round was meant to strike a balance betwixt the .357 and .44 magnum. The .357 was actually the one designed with vehicle penetration in mind, but it wasn't the engine block that was meant to be struck. It was the Gangster on the other side of the door, the one who'd been relatively safe from the .38 Special in common use during the era.

Engine blocks are pretty tough, and there's a lot of stuff between fender and core to get through and still have enough oomph to get the job done. Even the most powerful handguns of today are ill-suited to the task. See my earlier post about our real-world test with a Honda civic and an Armalite AR-50.

When Law enforcement needed to stop a vehicle, they used long guns, just as Frank Hamer's crew used BAR's with AP rounds when they ambushed Clyde Barrow's Ford in Louisiana in 1934.

[Deltaboy]

30-06 AP rounds are bad 2 the Bone.

[Shadow 7D]

The word you want is CONCEALMENT, cover can stop round, and cars are notorious magnets, but more the point,

Is the car still functional, if so, why aren't you using it, 1850lbs vs 185grns, I'll take the larger projectile.

[gym]

I got this from "Box of truth"
Lessons learned:
1. A single car door offers NO protection against handgun rounds.

2. Even two car doors and the passenger compartment offer little protection, and even that protection can be expected to evaporate when multiple rounds are fired.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3_2.htm

[Hatterasguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvncpT4EVzQ

OTOH if at first you don't succed try a bigger gun!:evil:

I wonder what would be left of a Civic after it took a 90mm HE round?:confused::D

[valorius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ummnOoSfd54
We have theory, and then we have reality.

That video clip is reality.

Sorry Box O' Truth.

[Rail Driver]

Not to relieve myself in your breakfast cereal Valorius, but if you'll notice, the "ballistics test" done here is using a stripped car door vs. an actual vehicle with all parts (we can assume) intact. Also, pay attention to the video... Most of the rounds are impacting tempered glass (the windshield) at a severe enough angle that most of the rounds fired simply deflected into the air. There was a single officer firing at the side of the vehicle, and I believe that's the officer who hit the suspect. A windshield will give you a little time... A car door? Even with motors and windows, not so much.

All that said, if you find yourself being shot at and you choose to take "cover" behind a vehicle you can hide behind the door, but in that situation I'll stick to keeping the engine block between me and the shooter.

[valorius]

They fired over 150rds at him in his car, and hit him ONE time- in the arm. And those are elite, high speed low drag SWAT cops.

And they mostly had SMG's and long guns....not pistols.

Ask any troop that's handled roadblock duty in Iraq, and they will tell you that it takes a LOT of 5.56mm rounds (let alone pistol rounds) to stop a car.

[gym]

I would think it had a lot more to do with what type of round they were using than the caliber at those types of shootings. The hollowpoints are going to stop at the door once they hit it,most times, where as the jacketed or ball ammo will probablly go right through even with a 380. "Got an old car around?" And if you remember in back in the 70's and 80's the 38's were bouncing off of windshields back when they decided to switch to 9mm, but as mentioned it had more to do with angles than bulletts. If you shoot anything at an angle that had a hard surface it will affect the penetration, unless it is so overpowering like a 308 fmj, that it continues anyway. If you hit it dead on perpendicular, it will go through.