Man survives 21 gunshot wounds: Placement, placement, placement!


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Yoda
August 9, 2010, 05:44 PM
Harlem shootout gunman who lived through 21 shots probably broke record

The gunman who survived at least 21 bullet wounds in a Harlem shootout with cops probably broke a record, a forensic expert said Sunday.

"I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," said Dr. Vincent DiMaio, 69, a forensic pathologist and author of "Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques."

"Of course, the real issue is where you get shot," he added. "One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

Angel Alvarez, 23, shot Luis Soto of the Bronx before falling in a hail of gunfire in a wild shootout with NYPD officers early Sunday, police said.

Alvarez's sister, Kimberley Creer, 29, said doctors confirmed they had removed at least 21 slugs from his body.

"That's ridiculous," she said. "In the arms, legs, abdomen, jaw. ... He's doing all right. He's talking."

Alvarez's lawyer, John Carney, put the number of shots at 23, but said his client was "awake and responding."

"He had chest and abdomen shots," Carney said. "It's a miracle. They missed the heart and major arteries."

DiMaio predicted that Alvarez would survive since the bullets missed vital organs and didn't cause excessive bleeding. The risk of infection remained the gunman's biggest hurdle.

"Listen, if you make it to thehospital and you can talk, 99% of the time, you'll make it," DiMaio said. "He'll survive."

DiMaio said the most gunshot wounds he'd ever examined in one person was 17, in aTexas man a decade ago. "Theguy was complaining about thepain," he said. "I told him, 'You're lucky to be alive.'"

In New York City, Joseph Guzman was struck at least 11 times in the 2006 police shooting that killed Sean Bell. Guzman received $3 million in a settlement with the city.

Here's the links (corrected):
http://www.newser.com/story/97637/gunman-shot-21-times-lives.html
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/yahoocanada/100809/canada/harlem_man_survives_being_shot21_times_by_nypd
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100809/od_yblog_upshot/harlem-man-survives-being-shot-21-times-by-nypd


================

'nuf said....

- - - Yoda

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SharpsDressedMan
August 9, 2010, 05:47 PM
God wanted this guy to survive 21 gunshot wounds. It happens. Get over it.;)

alohachris
August 9, 2010, 05:54 PM
gawd wanted him shot 21+ times because he loves him? Riiiiiiiiiiight... makes complete sense.

JoeMal
August 9, 2010, 05:57 PM
That's amazing

God forbid I ask what caliber?

Cosmoline
August 9, 2010, 06:02 PM
Good grief! Even Cole Younger only had 11.

According to Mass, they are using 9x19 Speer Gold dot

The 9mm round now acknowledged to work the best is a 124-grain to 127-grain high tech hollow point at a velocity of 1250 feet per second. NYPD, with some 30,000 officers carrying this type of ammo, the Speer Gold Dot +P 124-grain, is happy with the performance of its 9mm service pistols. Ditto the Orlando, Florida, Police Department, which uses the Winchester Ranger 127-grain +P+ in their standard issue 9mm SIGs.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

They'd be better served with magnum wheelguns.

JHansenAK47
August 9, 2010, 06:05 PM
I wonder if he is going to be partially crippled. A lot of potential for nerve, tendon and joint damage.

Enachos
August 9, 2010, 06:16 PM
^^^ What he said.

I imagine there's gonna be some kind of damage to parts of the body. He may have survived but I doubt he'll be able to function properly.

But what do I know... I've never been shot... thankfully!

wow6599
August 9, 2010, 06:19 PM
I can hear it now........."should of used a 40" or "wouldn't of lived if it was a 45".

JoeMal
August 9, 2010, 06:22 PM
I can hear it now........."should of used a 40" or "wouldn't of lived if it was a 45". That's why I debated even bringing it up lol

CoastieShep
August 9, 2010, 06:26 PM
What a waste of life. Too bad he didn't die. Would've saved the tax payers a lot of money if he'd died.
Never would've taken than many rounds if they'd been using .40s. Sorry, couldn't help myself.:neener:

Ragnar Danneskjold
August 9, 2010, 06:30 PM
gawd wanted him shot 21+ times because he loves him? Riiiiiiiiiiight... makes complete sense.

Don't be an ass.

Anyways, I do wonder what caliber it was. Any to me, more important that what caliber, I think it goes to show that having enough rounds on your and in your weapon is really key. Nothing quite like running out of rounds on your massive "caliber that start's with a 4" gun only to find that the BG is still kicking.

Sgt_R
August 9, 2010, 06:31 PM
But did it stop the threat?

Chevyguy85
August 9, 2010, 06:33 PM
Good grief! Even Cole Younger only had 11.

According to Mass, they are using 9x19 Speer Gold dot



http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

They'd be better served with magnum wheelguns.
As far as i know of Orlando PD carries glocks now, I know the Orange County Sheriff's office has gone to glocks as well. Source is out of date. If they were missing COM that much with 9mm then going to magnum wheel guns wouldn't help them very much, in fact would probably make shot placement even worse

kis2
August 9, 2010, 06:36 PM
the link took me to a medal of honor recipeint, so I didn't look at the full story to see any kind of timeline but...

no time for a rifle I assume?

Yoda
August 9, 2010, 06:46 PM
Link corrected on original post... and some more added...

- - - Yoda

Blakenzy
August 9, 2010, 06:46 PM
"Of course, the real issue is where you get shot," he added. "One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

In other words pistol caliber is of little significance if you get poor hits.

Round count is of little significance if you get poor hits.

Good hits are hard to come by on a moving, shooting target.

BTW, 21-23 hits...how many complete misses? Total shots fired... 50+

Yoda
August 9, 2010, 06:49 PM
Yes, one apparently can be shot 21 times and live to tell the tale--not that it's the sort of achievement that anyone is going to run out to emulate. Over the weekend, a Harlem man survived what some physicians are calling a record number of bullet wounds and is now recovering at a New York City hospital.

Early Sunday morning, a fight broke out at a party in Harlem that spilled into the street. According to the police officers who arrived at the scene, Angel Alvarez was seen fatally shooting Luis Soto. When Alvarez turned his weapon on the officers, a fierce firefight broke out. More than 50 bullets were fired, almost all of them by the police. At least 21 of those bullets pierced through Alvarez's body.

Luckily for Alvarez--whose extensive criminal record includes at least eight prior arrests--none of the bullets hit his brain, heart, or major arteries. His family members say that even though his arms, legs and torso were riddled with ammunition, Alvarez is "doing all right," is talking and it's believed he'll survive. A forensics expert told the New York Daily News' Simone Weichselbaum and Virginia Breen that Alvarez is likely the new holder of a somewhat dubious record.

"I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," Dr. Vincent DiMaio, a forensic pathologist who specializes in gunshot wounds, told the paper. "Of course, the real issue is where you get shot. One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

Meanwhile, some locals who witnessed the gunfight that left six people, including two cops, wounded are disputing the NYPD's version of events, saying that the officers -- some of them plain-clothes cops--never identified themselves as law enforcement personnel.

"Never once did you hear, 'Freeze,'" Shariff Spencer told the New York Times' Trymaine Lee and Colin Moynihan. "Never once did you hear, 'Stop.' Never once did you hear, 'N.Y.P.D.'"

Through a spokesman, the NYPD has insisted that the use of force was justified, saying that Alvarez fired upon the officers. It's been reported that the incident began with Alvarez and Soto arguing over a woman.


Here's the link:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/yahoocanada/100809/canada/harlem_man_survives_being_shot21_times_by_nypd

cajun47
August 9, 2010, 06:51 PM
sometimes i feel like replacing my ccw glock 19 with two .357 mag revolvers.

wulfhart
August 9, 2010, 06:51 PM
I tried the link, but it goes to "Idaho Medal of Honor recipient passes away" I don't think this is the fellow who was the gunman. He does seem like a nice guy though.

So google brought me this page
http://indyposted.com/36778/angel-alvarez-survives-after-being-shot-21-times/


Dang I am slow on clicking submit.

rondog
August 9, 2010, 06:52 PM
Alvarez's sister, Kimberley Creer, 29, said doctors confirmed they had removed at least 21 slugs from his body.


I wonder how many pass-throughs there were. Sounds like panic shooting to me, they need to slow down and aim a little.

hnk45acp
August 9, 2010, 06:59 PM
He killed a guy a guy with his 38 special before the cops got there and one of the cops managed to shoot another cop. Luckily the cops vest stopped the bullet

from the NYPost
A bullet likely fired by police killed a man whose struggle with an acquaintance over a gun touched off a shootout with officers and the man he was fighting, according to autopsy and ballistics reports Monday.
Luis Soto, 22, was hit five times and died from a wound to the torso that pierced his organs, according to Ellen Borakove, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. A single bullet recovered from the body was the shot that killed him, Borakove said.
Police said the recovered bullet was consistent with those used by the officers. It's not clear whether any of the other four gunshot wounds were inflicted by the acquaintance, Angel Alvarez, 23. The weapon Alvarez had was fired four times; it's unclear who fired the rounds.

Luis Soto

The violence erupted around 3 a.m. Sunday during a block party in Harlem that ran hours past its scheduled end. Police from several units, three officers in plainclothes and several others in uniform arrived from a separate shooting farther north to help disperse the crowd.
At that time, Alvarez ran from a nearby playground north to two parked cars on Lenox Avenue, where Soto was standing, police said. According to witnesses, the two had a long-standing beef, possibly over a woman, and Alvarez punched Soto and knocked him to the ground. One witness told police Soto pulled a gun from his waistband, and the two men struggled with it. One or possibly two shots were fired, though it's not clear who fired the weapon or if both men had guns, police said.
Alvarez got up and took off, firing more shots toward an officer in uniform, who squeezed off two rounds in return. One of the officer's shots hit plainclothes officer Michael Tedeschi in his bullet-resistant vest, police said. Tedeschi, 36, was expected to fully recover.
Meanwhile, three plainclothes officers nearby fired 44 times.
Another officer, Alfredo Vargas, 28, was grazed in a hand and was expected to be fine. Three other bystanders were also hit by bullets and were expected to recover. Alvarez had 21 gunshot wounds and was in stable condition. It's not clear how many bullets that hit him were fired by police.
Officers recovered one weapon, a .38 revolver, from Alvarez and four bullets had been fired, police said. A host of casings and fragments were recovered.
The officers involved in the shooting were on desk duty pending both an investigation and departmental review. Under common procedure, the Manhattan district attorney's office will first decide whether to bring the case before a grand jury, and then a shooting review board will look into the incident.
Police spokesman Paul Browne said the department would "await our standard reviews the department conducts for all police-involved shootings," before commenting on whether the shooting appeared to be within department guidelines.
An officer is allowed to use deadly force when faced with an imminent threat of injury or death.
Police are investigating the relationship between Alvarez and Soto and what started the fight, and are looking into the gun, which had been purchased in Georgia.


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/autopsy_man_killed_after_nyc_shootout_SeXgUyJWBvmBqfvMA1nC6I#ixzz0w9Wg3sPk

Captcurt
August 9, 2010, 07:00 PM
Just goes to prove what I've always said. Practice, practice, practice.

Hk Dan
August 9, 2010, 07:04 PM
Ah, but if he were hit with a .45 ACP he'd have just vaporized in a pink mushroom shaped cloud after flying back 15 feet and hitting a wall 8 feet off the ground...<heh heh heh>

Old Guy
August 9, 2010, 07:32 PM
Still 226 Sig's, I know that for sure! Quite a few years ago I suggested they go to WW +P+ 127g Ammo. The Range Master took the suggestion, they have had good results in shootings.

Mind you the MP 5 Sub Guns were battered to bits with the +P+ rounds, they changed the sub gun ammo. Going to Glocks? The Range Master hated them.

Orange County Sheriffs Office, Glock 45s.

Old Guy
August 9, 2010, 07:39 PM
I posted twice, sorry.

03Shadowbob
August 9, 2010, 07:41 PM
Many moons ago we shot a guy 17 times with 9x19 ball (issued ammo) as he was reaching for his ankle holster. He did not die and fought the whole time even after in cuffs. He does have permanent damage as his femur, knee cap, tibia and pelvis were all shattered. In addition to those he was hit numerous times in the chest, arm and buttocks.
Sometimes, it's just not your time to die. It was not that guy's time that early morning. Placement is everything but sometimes it just doesn't matter.

rainbowbob
August 9, 2010, 07:55 PM
Just wait for it...

"Angel Alvarez received $3.2 million dollars today for injuries sustained when he was shot 21 times by plain clothes police who failed to properly identify themselves. Mr Alverez was engaged in a discussion with an old friend when the police detectives inexplicably fired more then 40 rounds at the victim."

Old Guy
August 9, 2010, 08:01 PM
A Patrol in a Belfast Hospital comprised of a RUC Constable, and a Parra, were alerted to the fact that a robbery was taking place at the Post Office, by a nurse.

They listened to the slap of running boots, Des was pushed back by the Parra?
Des did not think he was in the Para's, more than likely was SAS.

The Soldier was carrying a Browning Hi Power, he stepped around the corner, fired two shots, both center chest shots, one died right there, the other in the O.R.

Brit Mil Spec 9mm Sub Gun Ammo. Through and through. Range 10m.

A and O
August 9, 2010, 08:12 PM
Two Thoughts.

1.) Cool, self healing targets

2.) He survived the 21+ bullets only to receive the death penalty or life in prison.

Don't know that I would want to survive being shot 21+ times.

shotgunjoel
August 9, 2010, 08:20 PM
Maybe they would have had better shot placement if they were issued guns that you could actually pull the trigger on. What is the pull on NYPD Glocks, 12lbs?

Carbonator
August 9, 2010, 09:42 PM
New NYPD officers are allowed to select one of three 9mm service pistols configured in double-action only (DAO): the SIG P226 DAO, Smith & Wesson model 5946, and Glock 19. All are modified to a 12-pound (53 N) trigger pull. All of the service pistols utilize hollow point bullets, as do most law enforcement service weapons in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department#Service_pistols

lobo9er
August 9, 2010, 09:42 PM
......,,,,,,,

ForumSurfer
August 9, 2010, 09:51 PM
Wow, the opinions of some people are really out there. That line about the witness really stopped me in my tracks.

"Never once did you hear, 'Freeze,'" Shariff Spencer told the New York Times' Trymaine Lee and Colin Moynihan. "Never once did you hear, 'Stop.' Never once did you hear, 'N.Y.P.D.'"


Doe he really expect officers to say that when a man who just shot someone turns his weapon on them?

Jimmy10mm
August 9, 2010, 09:52 PM
I'm interested in finding out if the witnesses are lying. As reported in the NY Times, a number of witnesses say the victim and the alleged shooter were fist fighting and unarmed.

Carbonator
August 9, 2010, 09:53 PM
I wonder if this incident will spark a caliber change to .40 for the NYPD.

I was a jurror on a trial which included an individual being shot approx 12 times with a 9mm. He was able to keep running, get in his car and then collapsed and died. It was likely a drug deal gone bad, no cops involved. I do think 9mm is a decent cartridge but I hear instances like these and thus prefer the .40 (.45 has too small capacity for multiple targets) for my carry system.

jlbpa
August 9, 2010, 10:03 PM
Best to have a rifle when the shooting starts. Friend asked why my 22-250 was still in the car a couple weeks after I had been called on to shoot a ground hog. I told him it was so I'd never have to say "hold on while I go get my rifle" :-).

Not likely anyone ever survived 21 shots with a rifle.

Old Shooter
August 9, 2010, 10:25 PM
Sounds like they could have gotten better results just beating the guy with a stick.

I know it's all about shot placement but how did they manage to put 21 rounds in all the wrong places?

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 9, 2010, 10:30 PM
I definatly blame a lack of training in this one.

Manco
August 9, 2010, 10:33 PM
But...but...apart from that hoary shot placement mantra we keep hearing about over and over these days :rolleyes:, what about STOPPING POWER? :eek::neener:

I wonder if this incident will spark a caliber change to .40 for the NYPD.

Or maybe their shot placement would improve overall rather than degrade with .22 LR. :D

Jimmy10mm
August 9, 2010, 10:38 PM
Their placement wasn't all bad. Tonight's report in the NY Times here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/nyregion/10shoot.html?ref=nyregion) says that the dead man was killed by a police round to the heart. That being the only one of five entry wounds that didn't go through his body. It had polygonal rifling so it couldn't have come from the snub nose found at the scene. The wounded man denies that he had a gun.

JellyJar
August 9, 2010, 11:06 PM
No one has to yell Stop, Freeze, Police or any such thing if the BG is already shooting at you!!!! :banghead:

If a misplaced police round did kill the victim unintentionally then perhaps it would be a good argument to go for pistols with an easier trigger pull? But then the NYPD cops would probably start shooting themselves in the leg or something. :(

-eaux-
August 9, 2010, 11:09 PM
your pistol's purpose is to fight your way back to your shotgun.
your shotgun's purpose is to fight your way back to your rifle, which you never should have layed down in the first place.
pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles.
in the grand scheme of things, a pistol wound is a deterrant. to rely upon a pistol-caliber wound to stop the BG is wishful thinking. be it .22rf or .45acp.
if you drop a BG with either, you got lucky.
practice and shot placement are penultimate when it comes to trusting your life or that of your family to a sidearm. when the rubber meets the road, you'd better have as much trust in your nerve and practice as you have in your sidearm, because a pistol-caliber wound is very rarely a manstopper.

Wild Bunch
August 9, 2010, 11:26 PM
People have already mentioned caliber and shot placement, I think the real issue here is how big a settlement this scumbag is going to collect from the city. I only wish it would come directly from Bloombergs Bucks......

Now if NYPD was using 10MM we wouldn't even be having this discussion :D

ScratchnDent
August 9, 2010, 11:47 PM
I imagine it would take a lot more range time than the majority of those officers get to master a 12 lb trigger.

Kentucky_Rifleman
August 10, 2010, 01:11 AM
I'm only guessing, but the only reason I can fathom for having an issue weapon with a 12 lb trigger pull is to slow down the semi-auto fire rate. Can anyone confirm this? If the NYPD is determined to reduce officers' rates of fire, why not just go back to wheelguns?

This sounds suspiciously like the PR-driven department mandates from the 70s and 80s when revolvers were standard issue for many departments, but officers were forbidden from using magnum ammunition.

That didn't make much sense either. The argument there was that the magnums were A. deadlier and B. more likely to over-penetrate, generating civilian casualties.

Surely some of this crap could be avoided by better training. I realize that a gunfight is nothing like blowing holes in silhouettes, but 21+ non-lethal shots seems pretty slipshod to me.

KR

dec41971
August 10, 2010, 01:42 AM
Just wait for it...

"Angel Alvarez received $3.2 million dollars today for injuries sustained when he was shot 21 times by plain clothes police who failed to properly identify themselves. Mr Alverez was engaged in a discussion with an old friend when the police detectives inexplicably fired more then 40 rounds at the victim."
No he wont. I was a NY resident for 11yrs, and trust me, he will get $ZERO, $ZILCH. He had a gun, was involved in a gun fight with another guy. The guys who get money are usually completely unarmed. First of all having a gun in NY city, even a legal one, would convict you before a word was said. The cops, the public, everyone is anti over there. You wont find a harsher jury anywhere. "Oh, he had a gun.....GUILTY!". And besides this guy is a scumbags with a long rap sheet.

Another thing, not disparaging LEO, but NY city cops shooting innocent bystanders or each other is not that uncommon. They have horrible record. My theory? They don't practice until they have to use it. Why you ask? Because they have to buy their own stuff for range sessions. You would think such a huge city has top notch marksmanship in their police force, and you would be rather wrong. And for all the stupid anti-2A laws in the city, you'd think the crooks have no guns, but you'd be surprised at how many illegal guns are in criminal private hands. You can buy one at most every dark alley in the city, forget about Bloomberg's claim they are all from Virginia gun shows. Its laughable. As you can see, the cops were there from another shooting just down the street to the North. Its pathetic, you can't even legally carry peper spray in NY city. Peper spray for crying out loud. Most anything you might call a weapon or construe to be one is baned. The general public is easy pickins for criminals, because the only people they really disarm is the law abiding public.

Rail Driver
August 10, 2010, 01:52 AM
...which you never should have layed down in the first place.

So you concealed carry a rifle on a daily basis eh? How's that working out for ya?

In re: the rest of the thread...

We've got some bloodthirsty high-roaders don't we? Self healing targets? Very amusing, I got a chuckle. How would you feel if the idiot criminal was your brother?

I'm not condoning these guys actions by any means, but regardless of the situation there is a reason for due process, and if I'm not mistaken I don't recall the judge and jury from these guys' trial posting in this thread.

KingHack
August 10, 2010, 04:21 AM
To call him a lucky guy is an understatement. You gotta wonder how 21 shots can miss major arteries.

oldfool
August 10, 2010, 07:36 AM
not having been there, trying hard not to jump to any conclusions
other than stay out of NY, which I was already real inclined to do anyhow

still... that's a lot of cops on scene mighty quick, several in "plainclothes", does not sound like your average family picnic

gosh, that's a lot of folks shooting firing on one (?) target
nobody can really say if hits on any/all others were 100% "unintentional" or not, re: the whoops factor

gosh, that's a lot of rounds fired
gosh, that's a lot of misses
gosh, that's a lot of poor hits

somebody said 21 misses... almost sounds a little bit more like 40+ "misses"
as a matter of idle speculation, might be that 12# trigger pull DAOs are a tad less than optimal

but caliber would seem to be the least relevant part of the story
even if they could barely manage 50% "hits" out of more than 40 shots, and had all been using 22 rimfire, somebody should have been able to put ONE into a stopping spot, to the effect that somebody could decide to stop shooting now (whether the guy lived or not)

SharpsDressedMan
August 10, 2010, 07:47 AM
This is a bit crass and crude, but larger holes let the target bleed out faster. THAT would be the argument for a larger caliber guns. The bad guy would have just STOPPED sooner, and maybe have had to been shot less times. However, larger guns might have been harder for marginal shooters to use and qualify with. Poorly trained cops and possibly substandard weapons are a compromise that NYC appears to have to live with.

oldfool
August 10, 2010, 08:04 AM
well, like I said
maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe
but no conclusions
(maybe you or I would have done the same, if there, heckifiknow)

that many people shooting, that many rounds fired, maybe hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys, when loud sounds happen real quick, and not everybody is even in uniform... maybe, maybe this was the sort of picnic where lots of other "non-participants" were packing heat, not just those one or two guys other than the cops

they don't pay NYPD guys all that much, does seem like they could at least give them some practice ammo along with the gun

stay out of NY

Mp7
August 10, 2010, 08:07 AM
Seems none of us were there to actually see how they managed
to miss soo many times ... and i would hate to be anywhere close
to a scene like that.

a miracle nobody got hit by a ricochet or stray ....

HappyHunting
August 10, 2010, 08:34 AM
Can't seem to see too sure of what is beyond the target this August.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Cop-Shot-Bystander-Killed-in-Wild-Police-Chase-85951697.html

HH

ForumSurfer
August 10, 2010, 08:53 AM
but caliber would seem to be the least relevant part of the story

The middle aged fool agrees with the oldfool on this one. :D

If I had to blame anything weapon related here, it would be those horrible extra heavy trigger springs NY uses. Itís great at preventing ndís, but Iím sure it causes accuracy issues among the rank and file. I know that simply polishing some parts and adding a 3Ĺ pound spring to my glock increased my accuracyÖso Iím sure if I go 7 or 8 pounds heavier it would decrease my accuracy.

Jimmy10mm
August 10, 2010, 10:17 AM
According to the news reports, if you can depend on them :rolleyes:, the first round fired by an LEO hit one of his own in the chest. Fortunately the vest saved him. Say that to say, seeing one of your brother officers go down must have stimulated the action considerably. The 50 rounds fired probably in less than 5 or 10 seconds. There were bystanders hit to and with that many rounds fired it is amazing that more people weren't killed or seriously injured.

Meanwhile it makes me wonder about the P9 and the P238 I alternatively carry. I've often read that the 9mm is insufficient in stopping power let alone the 380. That a man can be hit 21, I think they are saying 23 now, times is remarkable and shakes my confidence in the round.

JoeMal
August 10, 2010, 10:21 AM
Was this guy on drugs? I'm sure a tox report is in the works...?

heron
August 10, 2010, 10:24 AM
That guy will be a legend in prison . . .

Justin
August 10, 2010, 10:46 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=472825

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