[MacPelto]

WOW! Comments, anyone? (lawsuit, anyone?)




http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=1638&u_sid=940982


Published Tuesday
December 9, 2003

Managers 'petrified' by robbery training session

BY DAVID HENDEE



WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER

Hugging the floor of the convenience store and cradling her head in her arms, Kristin Johnson waited to hear the click of the trigger.

One image seared her mind: Norfolk, Neb., where five people were killed last year in a bank massacre.

"My first thought was, 'Oh, my God, I am going to die.'"

But the terrorized Johnson wasn't physically injured. She and six other managers were unknowing participants in an armed-robbery training session organized by their employer, the Lincoln-based Gas 'N Shop convenience stores.

The episode took only seconds to unfold Nov. 14 at the company store in Schuyler, Neb., where the managers gathered for one of their periodic meetings. Johnson said she still has panic attacks and headaches because of the incident and quit her job because of the anxiety.

"I can't do this anymore - wondering what's coming in when you hear the doorbell," Johnson said.

Johnson, who would have marked her second anniversary next month with Gas 'N Shop, said the incident unnecessarily traumatized her and could have ended in disaster if a hunter or other armed passer-by intervened.

Gas 'N Shop executives were not available for comment Monday. Dorothy Bockoven, the company attorney, had no comment beyond saying: "This is an internal training matter and not for public comment."

Gas 'N Shop Inc. operates about 70 gasoline station-convenience stores in Nebraska. Last year, the company had 530 employees and revenue of $107.6 million.

Schuyler Police Chief Leonard Hilter, whose department provided two officers to pose as the bandits, declined to comment.

Nebraska State Patrol Major Bryan Tuma said reality-based training is a widely accepted practice by law enforcement agencies.

"People react in situations the way they are trained," Tuma said. He said he was commenting generally and not on the Schuyler episode.

Johnson said that she assumed the managers' meeting last month would be about hiring and other "simple things."

Four of the 11 managers and supervisors at the Schuyler store that morning knew in advance of the bogus holdup.

One was the Schuyler manager, who was told by police not to load a video tape into the surveillance-camera system. The other was the Norfolk manager, whose store was the site of a killing in 1995.

Johnson described the Schuyler incident this way:

"We were just chit-chatting, waiting for a manager who was late, and these two guys come running into the store. One yelled, 'Get down on the floor! Get down on the floor!' He had a shotgun. . . .

"I immediately hit the floor. He started yelling for our purses."

Johnson's purse was on the table. "I was petrified."

A shotgun-toting man wearing jeans, a dark stocking cap and a hooded gray sweatshirt stood over Johnson and 10 colleagues.

Johnson's mind raced. "I figured that they were going to kill us just like those other guys did to the people at the bank in Norfolk. I lay there and thought to myself that I was never going to see my husband and children again. I thought of my daughter and how attached she is to me. I thought I'd never see my son graduate."

About 30 seconds later, the gunmen left, and the managers locked the door and dialed 911.

"I didn't know if I was going to puke or pass out," Johnson said.

A uniformed Schuyler police officer, who apparently learned of the ruse only minutes earlier, soon arrived and had the victims describe the gunmen.

Then the gunmen returned and displayed their police badges.

The managers were told that the guns were not loaded and that the exercise was to see how they would react.

"I heard very little of what they said," Johnson said. "I was angry; I was just glaring. They told me to get over it."

Johnson said she couldn't bring herself to go to work the following Monday because of anxiety. She worked a few hours Tuesday and quit.

Johnson, who has been the victim of "grab-and-run" robbers who take beer or soft drinks, said Gas 'N Shop policy is for employees not to resist robbers.

[TallPine]

Reminds me of that really bad Halloween joke a while back ... :(

Gas 'N Shop policy is for employees not to resist robbers.
Makes sense. Employees are easier to replace than the money that a lawsuit might cost. :rolleyes:

[TallPine]

"grab-and-run" robbers who take beer or soft drinks
Those aren't "robbers" - merely shoplifters.

Robbery implies threat of physical violence.

[spacemanspiff]

so what happens when they do that to a group that has a person CCW'ing, and the 'simulated' robbers wind up dead?

[ny32182]

Johnson, who would have marked her second anniversary next month with Gas 'N Shop, said the incident unnecessarily traumatized her and could have ended in disaster if a hunter or other armed passer-by intervened.

No ????. The idiocy of the people who approved this 'plan' can not be described in words.

If I ever worked at a gas station or anywhere else, and was involved in an armed robbery where I felt my life was in such imminent danger, 'company policy' would be the VERY VERY LAST thing on my mind.

This article really has me fuming.:fire:

[dav]

This is absolutely insane.

spacemanspiff wrote:so what happens when they do that to a group that has a person CCW'ing, I'm sure that's what all of us are thinking... "glad we weren't there while packing" :banghead:

[Roadkill Coyote]

If it happened as reported, at very least, the safety officer for the training ought to be facing some kind of disicplinary action. Any training involving firearms, particularly any force on force where they are getting pointed at people has to have someone with whom responsibility for safety resides. Using unwilling and unaware "volunteers" is asking to get someone killed (other than the obvious ethical and legal issues). How many of us have known someone who worked at a quick shop who carried in violation of law or policy? What could have very easily happened in this case?

[Trebor]

I can't believe how incredibly stupid this was. What was the point of the exercise? They didn't seem to be "training" the employees to react in any certain way, all they did was scare them and see how they'd react. What's the use of stessfull training if you aren't trying to impart new skills?

The potential for tragedy here was incredibly high.

[Mark Tyson]

This kind of thing is needlessly traumatic for the participants. It also has the potential for disaster written all over it.

And you thought your management was bad . . .

[Mad Man]

Schuyler Police Chief Leonard Hilter, whose department provided two officers to pose as the bandits, declined to comment.

Nebraska State Patrol Major Bryan Tuma said reality-based training is a widely accepted practice by law enforcement agencies.

.....

Four of the 11 managers and supervisors at the Schuyler store that morning knew in advance of the bogus holdup.

One was the Schuyler manager, who was told by police not to load a video tape into the surveillance-camera system.

.....

Then the gunmen returned and displayed their police badges.





so what happens when they do that to a group that has a person CCW'ing, and the 'simulated' robbers wind up dead?


Charged, as a cop killer.

[citizen]

Ay; there's the rub.....:fire: :barf:

[Standing Wolf]

You really wouldn't want to try a stunt like that in my neighborhood.

[SJG26]

I sense major lawsuit here: Mental distress/anguish , post-traumatic stress related issues and that's from the employees.

I did not note if customers were also in the store at the time of the incident. As previous threads noted - imagine if a CCW'r were there and reacted accordingly:mad:

[Hillman]

"People react in situations the way they are trained," Tuma said.

Yep. I usually train for 2 COM 1 Head.

Sometimes I train with 2 targets - 2 COM 2 COM 1 HEAD 1 HEAD.

If the police shoot people with toy guns (and I fully support that) because they feel threatened and can't tell the difference, then how am I wrong by firing at someone with a real shotgun if I feel threatened? I can't tell it's not loaded.

They're training these people to be sheeple.

[CleverNickname]

imagine if a CCW'r were there and reacted

No legal CCW in NE.

[Balog]

The fact that cops are being pimped out to terrorize unaware innocents is mind-boggling. Anyone who abuses their authority like that needs to be shot.

[zahc]

This is so wrong on so many levels. Completely outrageous.

If the police shoot people with toy guns (and I fully support that) because they feel threatened and can't tell the difference, then how am I wrong by firing at someone with a real shotgun if I feel threatened?


^indeed.

[Baba Louie]

No legal CCW in NE.
Off Duty Lincoln Cop/Sheriff Deputy or State Trooper buying some milk?
They could've had a good laugh over it later at the donut shop, right?
Adios

[P95Carry]

Well - I shouldn't waste bandwidth repeating what others have said already but .......

This is all but unbelievable <wears incredulity hat> ........ are these people really serious??!!:rolleyes: So - what if an employee happened to have a ''bad heart'' ... and suffered a heart attack thru stress and fear? It's happened before.

Geez ...... are these dumba$$es actually for real?!

More to the point - is the report straight up and for real .. I have an awful hard time believing this!

[bbrins]

When I was about 19, my friend's brother was working in a Seven-Eleven(or some other similar convenience store) and was robbed... almost. The would be robber pointed a real, loaded shotgun at him and it really ticked my friend's brother off, he knocked the gun out of his hands and beat the robber within an inch of his life, still unconscious when they loaded him in the ambulance.

I wonder what would have happened if my friend's brother's situation had happened in this training exercise. I wonder if the police officers would just "get over it".

I don't think that the police should have been involved in this beyond being notified of the training exercise, and maybe posting a plainclothes officer outside to make sure that some good samaratin doesn't run in with a gun to save the day. I think that the local PD just opened themselves up for a lawsuit by being so directly involved in this.

[rayjay]

Oh yea! I see a 6 figure law suit coming out of this. It's a good thing there wasn't an off duty officer in there at the time that didn't know it was all a ruse. If it were me.......I would sue the crap out of them for pulling such a stupid stunt, then I would file a formal complaint on the two officers that were acting as the robbers. Acting or not they can still get in trouble for scaring the crap out of people like that, waving shotguns around, yelling at people to "Get on the ground!" I would like to hear what the State Police has to say after several complaints and law suits are files.

[WvaBill]

Not only stupid, but illegal.
Assault with a deadly weapon...placing a person in reasonable fear of harm. At least here.

[GigaBuist]

Holy crap...

Now, we THR'ers tend to be a fairly paranoid group and play out a lot of "What If" scnearios but this is one that I actually HAVE thought of.

Until recently I had been working for a company that was rather "nanny"-ish to it's employees. Getting a little bored one day as a new employee I decided to read up on official procedures for this and that and I came across our bomb-threat scenario drill. It said do not call the cops, call the local security office. Seriously. Don't alert anybody, call the downtown office (they can be there in 20-30 minutes) and they'll bring in dogs. What kind of horse crap is that? No CCW AND this combined lead me to beleive that the above scenario isn't really that far out of the question to see if we'd react according to protocol if something like that happened.

Everybody involved should be darned glad they just had sheeple in the room. We all know that. The "armed' men couldn't deploy deadly force but the victims didn't know that. A guy with a 3 inch folder and some guts would have caused serious damage... if there was something like a large lamp or coat rack in the room somebody could have been beaten to death.

Trying something like this on your employees is a REALLY bad idea! Scaring somebody to the point where they fear they're going to die and then telling them it's a joke sets you up for a pretty good pummeling if somebody in the room has a bit of a temper.

That's just insane. At least I know I'm not nuts for thinking it could happen.

[dinosaur]

Accepted practice huh? Try that in NYC and the lawyers will be forming a conga line around the block. Not to mention the BMW salesmen will be doing the Macarena anticipating all the newly rich.:rolleyes:

[Amish_Bill]

I imagine that there will be several somewhat traumatized, but set for life former managers there as soon as a few good lawyers are called...

[griz]

Nebraska State Patrol Major Bryan Tuma said reality-based training is a widely accepted practice by law enforcement agencies.

Big news flash here Major, those people were not a law enforcement agency! Time for the city and the company to get out their wallets.

[tyme]

This is incredibly scary. Imagine if a respectable citizen who happened to be carrying illegally was caught in the store at the time and shot both cops.

Could it also be a 5th Amendment violation? Police forcing an illegally armed citizen to draw a gun or face (what the citizen could reasonably assume would be) potential execution...

[45R]

http://www.usualsuspect.net/forums/images/smilies/more/cuckoo.gif

[davidtdm]

that in this" training scenario" , why were the "informed managers" told by the police to not have the video recorders on. What purpose of training is this if you can't assess what happened corectly or not. It sounded like the cops wanted to have a bit to much fun with this group and not want any proof of it .

Just my two cents,

dave

[Justin]

Hmm.
Big lawsuits all around, and for once I don't see a problem with it.

As for the cops using 'unloaded' weapons, I seem to recall something about gun safety rule number one.

Something along the lines of, oh yeah

All guns are always loaded.

Of course I s'pose it's only a matter of time before there's a mixup and a live round somehow makes it into a supposedly 'unloaded' gun. After all, I've seen more than one article lamenting some poor officer getting unintentionally shot during a training exercise.

:fire:

[semf]

Yeah David the absence of video is the first thing that struck me as odd.

Forgetting about he possibility of someone carrying a handgun or other weapon during the incident. what would have happened if, when the "actors" returned and told the group that they had been Xed, one of the victims had jumped up and beat hell out of as many of these jerks as he could or encouraged the others to jump in. What if any charges could have stuck to these managers.

[davidtdm]

I guess well never know the real "what ifs" with out a video?

dave

[sm]

Agree with Justin, just a matter of time.
There is a place for training and instruction --Under a controlled enviroment!! I bet a bunch of off duty LEO wouldn't try a stunt say by dressing as BG Terroists and barging into roll call..."just to see if the their brethern are awake and paying attention".

I/We had had a rash of hold-ups many years ago in another life. Young punk smart-aleck kid of a business owner's next door thought it would be "cute" to run in our business and yell "This is a hold-up!".

Well he wet himself, not sure if it was the two guns up front he saw first or the sound of me racking one in the chamber of a model 37 then seeing me with it. Thank Goodness fingers off triggers and employee up front yelled out "friendly". Guns safed, kids dad called, whom promptly chewed him a new one. He will never do that "cute stunt" again. In fact he toned down quite a bit after that day.
I CCW everywhere...hope no numbskulls get any bright ideas about surprise employee visits around here...

[thumbtack]

I can not believe people are still doing this.

[aquapong]

Certainly none of us here are in favor of frivilous lawsuits, but this crosses the line IMO. I hope the employees who were unwittingly a part of this sue the company and/or the police dept for mental distress or something. Why would it have been so hard to tell the managers that they were there to participate in armed robbery training? I wonder what would have happened if one of the managers was CCW or even carrying at work with the permission of his boss and smoked the "cops." Would he still be charged with murder of a peace officer?

[foghornl]

45r's 'smiley' sums it up very well.

And we can all 'armchair quarterback' this thing, but let us take a look at 1 possible....

State Police/Deputy Sheriff, etc with no knowledge of this [ahem] training rolls up, and sees 2 guys with masks, shottys, and folks on the floor......well, what do you think he is going to guess is happening ? ? ?

REAL likely to have a few dead/seriously injured officers after the smoke clears.

I can't even begins to count (with both shoes and gloves off) how many ways this makes LESS THAN ZERO SENSE. We can only hope that the parties that thought up AND approved this mess are left hanging out to dry while slowly twisting in the wind.

[Beren]

I cannot believe idiots still walk the streets who would perform a "training session" like this. Just to begin with, if it's for "training purposes" the camera darn well /should/ be live and recording for post-training assessment.

As many have said, this could have easily ended with two dead police officers. Nebraska, however, does not allow legal concealed carry by civilians. As far as I'm concerned, it would have been a justified killing if someone had shot the two officers during the "training session."

I hope they sue the pants off the company, the police department the two cops work for, and the two cops personally.

[armoredman]

A similiar incident happened to one of my former coworkers with AT Systems. When he was picking up a major dept stores' money on Halloween, the girl in the office answered a knock at the door, then backed in slwly, hands in the air. In walked a man with a Batman mask on, and a gun in his belt. Dan drew down on the guy. It was very fortunate for him the gun was in his pants, and not in his hand, as it turned out to be the STORE MANAGER, who thought it would be FUNNY to do that! He literally soiled himself at the sight of Dans SIG pointed at his face.

The above incident you guys describe is ridiculous and stupid, and a lawsuit is in order!

[TonyB]

I work in a state mental hospital.A couple of years back,some people thought they were going to another facility for a meeting.When they got there,they were treated like patients...their stuff taken away, shoes and belts taken and they were admitted to a unit and stayed for 2 days......they of course freaked out...as far as i know no one sued....i would have.......the admin. said it would increase empathy among staff.....it would inrease a distrust of admin. if you ask me........amazing:mad:

[Andrew Rothman]

Take a minute and tell the chief what an incredibly dangerous and idiotic thing he did.

http://www.nebraskapolice.info/CitiesofNebraska/Schuyler.html

Police Chief Leonard Hiltner
1020 A St.
Schuyler, NE 68661
(402) 352-2415

They have a mayor and city council:

Mayor Mary Peschel
City of Schuyler
1103 B St.
Schuyler,Nebraska 68661
Phone: (402) 352-3101
Fax: (402) 352-3114
E-mail: schuyler@navix.net

[RVSinOK]

I gotta agree with WvaBill on this one. Even completely ignoring the civil lawsuits, this is pretty clearly assault with a deadly weapon. They call that a FELONY around here!

[cxm]

The training was absolutely irresponsible... both on the part of the company AND the cops.

Imagine if armed customers had been there... cops, feds... hunters etc. We would have seen dead cops with empty guns drawn.... can you envision the reaction by the local cops to that sort of outcome?

The police and company deserve everything the lawyers inflict on them in this case.

FWIW

Chuck

[cordex]

Very, very, very, very, very, very stupid.

The police involved and owners of the store need to get nailed in court. I can see plenty of criminal and civil charges.

[HankB]

If I point a gun at someone, it doesn't have to be loaded in order for me to be charged with assault and various other sundry charges - I won't be able to laugh it off and get away with saying "Just Kidding" or "Training Session."

What if one of the unwitting "trainees" had a heart attack or stroke, or injured themselves diving behind the counter?

The "officers" with shotguns ought to be criminally prosecuted ex-police.

[Daniel T]

That's insane. It boggles the mind.

But hey, the cops were just following orders, right? And I'm sure the employees signed a waiver at the time of hire too.

[williegee]

This has got to be one of the most irresponsible things I've ever seen. I can't believe that people sat around, talked about this, and executed it. I wonder what the police would think if a couple of teenagers pulling a prank did the exact same thing or if someone was hurt or killed. Would they be able to just "get over it".:banghead: :fire: :cuss: :banghead: :fire: :cuss:

[Zundfolge]

No legal CCW in Nebraska?

Not quite. Many of the states without CCW still allow you to carry at home or work (when I lived in Kansas it was worded something like "at your place of business").

From Packing.org
28-1202 Carrying concealed weapon; penalty; affirmative defense.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries a weapon or weapons concealed on or about his or her person such as a revolver, pistol, bowie knife, dirk or knife with a dirk blade attachment, brass or iron knuckles, or any other deadly weapon commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon.

(2) It shall be an affirmative defense that the defendant was engaged in any lawful business, calling, or employment at the time he or she was carrying any weapon or weapons and the circumstances in which such person was placed at the time were such as to justify a prudent person in carrying the weapon or weapons for the defense of his or her person, property, or family.

(3) Carrying a concealed weapon is a Class I misdemeanor.

(4) In the case of a second or subsequent conviction under this section, carrying a concealed weapon is a Class IV felony.

I believe that working at a Stop-N-Rob would "justify a prudent person in carrying the weapon or weapons for defense of his or her person, property, or family".

At any rate, even if not armed with a firearm, what would stop a young, strong man from taking the shottie from the "robber" and beating him to death with it?

All I can say is Stupid, Stupid, Stupid! :banghead:

[Correia]

Well this certainly explains why some police chiefs are against CCW. :D

[ENC]

Last year sometime I was watching the local (OKC) news. They were doing a story on safety while driving. The newscaster and cameraman were down in the city. Everytime the light would turn red they would sneek up on cars and jerk the door open. They were doing this to raise awareness about locking doors while driving. Many of these people were suprised. I imagine they left out the ones where the newscaster caught hell. I don't know how fast they could have been shot if a CCW had been a little quick to the trigger.

[Cosmoline]

I'm usually very anti-plaintiff. But in this case if I were on the jury I'd want to shut this company down forever and personally kick the crap out of whoever thought this up. It's corporate arrogance at its finest.

BTW, I'd love to see more suits from the "don't resist" policy.

:cuss:

[Penforhire]

Seems like we're all of one mind here. Incredibly stupid as reported.

I can only assume company policy prohibits firearms, as does my place of work. That wouldn't be good enough for me if I were a would-be simulated bad guy. Not only do the managers have incredibly poor judgement but those simulated B.G.'s weren't using any simulated brains either!

[Zundfolge]

I can only assume company policy prohibits firearms, as does my place of work.
One important thing to remember Company Policy is not force of law!

;)

I showed this story to some of my co-workers ... a couple mentioned the idea of employees that were armed ... then they looked at me and one asked me if I was carrying a gun!

I lied (and our company has no policy concerning CCW at work).

[Mad Man]

Schuyler Police Chief Leonard Hilter...


Heil Hilter.

[ENC]

Pretty sure that was a typo (refer to post on second page)

nice touch though

[WvaBill]

And I'm sure the employees signed a waiver at the time of hire too.

Don't think a waiver releases employer from negligience

[Roadkill Coyote]

I'd like to see a waiver that covered that :rolleyes:, and before this is done I think the Chief will be wish he knew what one looked like too :D.

Just imagine, once the suing commences, what the look on the face of the first expert witness on firearms training is gonna be when the Chief starts looking...

"you did WHAT?"

Now that would be worth seeing.

[DualBerettas]

just when u think u heard it all.....:rolleyes:

DB

[Slow]

Fortunately none of the MGRs. were CCW or the "perps" might have died

[Country Boy]

bump

[MicroBalrog]

The managers were told that the guns were not loaded

Should I state the obvious?:cuss:

ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

[glocksman]

I can only assume company policy prohibits firearms, as does my place of work. That wouldn't be good enough for me if I were a would-be simulated bad guy. Not only do the managers have incredibly poor judgement but those simulated B.G.'s weren't using any simulated brains either!

I used to work at a local 'Stop & Rob' part time and despite company policy to the contrary, I was always armed with a Smith Centennial or a Glock 19.

If a robber just wanted the money, I would have just handed it over and asked him if he needed a fill up for the getaway car. :D
I wasn't going to shoot someone for the $50 in the cash register.

OTOH, the instant I heard 'get on the floor' or any other sign of impending threat to my life, the gun would have come out and someone would have been shot.

Perhaps me, perhaps the robbers, but it's better to die fighting.

[Quartus]

Hmmm. Your average CCW (i.e., someone with a little bit of training and the will to use it) vs. two cops with EMPTY weapons.


I think we'd have had two people on stretchers, and maybe in body bags.



And one innocent person in handcuffs. :(

[Ironbarr]

One, while (IMHO) this is more than brandishing, any "suit" would probably downplay it to brandishing. Two, what would be the result of a couple real BGs coming in on this tea party - those phony BGs are without ammo.

Yeah - yeah... the odds are against it. Well, since it was a normal Shop & Rob area, so to speak, I'd say the odds weren't that high. Besides, Murphy's Law applies. Methinks there are those in that scenario who were flirting with Darwin.

-Andy

[standingbear]

outragous cant begin to describe the idocy of this.the employees were unknowing participants in a robbery "training" exercise.the cops returned later..showing their badges.id think id gotten every one of those badge numbers and names along with my bosses name,camera footage and went straight away...to a attorney.

[artherd]

Holey hell.

I'd have charged the cops with assault with a deadly weapon under Citizen's arrest. Posthumiously. Because I just shot both of them for pointing guns at the clerk.


The very idea of un-expected, uncontroled assault 'training' is so insane, I don't think I could adequately cover it here.