.416 Rigby vs. .458 Win Mag -- Round 2


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Griffin
March 4, 2010, 02:24 PM
If you are looking for a large bore rifle dont get something cheap! I have recently experienced a dakota african grade rifle chambered in 416 rigby and it will shoot 1 in groups at 100 yds. The recoil is not bad most likely due to the ported barrel. if recoil is a problem for you than a ruger no.1 is not going to work the recoil is emmense even with a 45-70 loaded with 350's @ 2200-2300 fps trust me. I currently have a fascination with the 458win as do you but in all reality the carteridge was designed to make a 45 cal bullet rimless so it would function in a bolt gun. My vote would to either get a 458 bolt gun or just go with a ruger no1 in 45-70. the 45-70 has more than enough energy to take all big game guy's are using them to kill elephant in africa. the bullets are cheap and the result is the same. i recently hammered a hog in south texas with one at 50 yds the hog was quartering towards me (the toughest shot) and the 45-70 performed marvilously and penetrated all the way through. needless to say, the hog was dead in his tracs we weighed him he was a full 200 lbs with tusks and everything. Get the 45-70

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earlthegoat2
March 4, 2010, 02:40 PM
I like the older BRNO 602 in 458 Lott. You can still shoot the 458 Winchesters in them and the rifle is a little more robust and built on a true Mauser Magnum action.

cottonmouth
March 4, 2010, 02:56 PM
I have a No. 1 in .458 Win. I really like it. I can load it for anything from deer on up. Killed a few deer with it, the first one I killed with it made me find another load. I shot a doe at around 60 yards and the bullet went in behind the right shoulder and exited behind the left shoulder. When I walked up to the deer I noticed that the skin along her back bone was torn open 8-10 inches like she had been cut with a razor, just pretty pink meat showing and no blood. I had never seen it before and figured it was time to back the load down a tad! I'm still not sure what happened to cause it, I was shooting Hot Core 350's with around 65 grains of IMR 3031.

J.B.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b162/cottonmouth_/HPIM2165.jpg

MachIVshooter
March 4, 2010, 03:48 PM
If you want the bigger caliber, I'd go for the .458 Lott

I'll second that sentiment. Quite an advantage over the .458 WM.

Between the .458 Win. and the .416 Rigby, I'd go .416. But when I chose to plunk down coin on a rifle to use for dangerous game, I passed on both of those in favor of the .375 RUM. With lighter bullets, it is suitable for continental US game at any range you can hit them, but can also be loaded with heavy solids to kill the big nasty stuff. Kinetic energy rivals the .458 WM, but with the trajectory of a .270 Win. Yes, it is a high pressure cartrdige (65,000 PSI), but has been tested by a number of hunters and gun writers in Africa and never proved to have difficult extraction in the bolt guns. To my knowledge, the round has never been chambered in a single shot or double rifle.

The one downside to this round is tremendous recoil; though the bullets are lighter, the high pressure and high velocity creates a very sharp recoil impulse, much worse than the .416's I've shot.

BruceB
March 4, 2010, 05:49 PM
We have to remember that all things are in a state of flux. The .416 Rigby of today is surely not the .416 Rigby of 1912, restricted as it was to Cordite for a propellant. Neither is today's .458 the same as the .458 of 1958. Time moves on, and improvements are made. In many cases, writings from those earlier times do not necessarily still apply.

I have both the .416 Rigby and a .404 Jeffery. Both will perform FAR better than they did in their first loadings, and at reasonable pressures. The question is, do we NEED such improvements? Both cartridges earned their reputations in the African heat with their original ballistics, and the performances were stellar. The large cases allowed low pressures, as already stated.

My Rigby will safely drive a 300-grain TSX at almost 3000 fps, but it's flatly miserable to shoot at that level. The .404 can push a 400 TSX at 2400-plus, but it's also miserable with its 8.5-pound weight. Using modern powders to deliver original ballistics (or maybe SLIGHTLY improved) still gives us ammo which is dependable in the heat (or cold) and performs just as well as we could ask. (My sole current use for the .375 RUM is as a donor for .404 brass...it makes excellent .404 Jeffery cases with very little effort at a fraction of the cost of "real" .404 brass).

When dealing with cartridges of heavy recoil, it's a fact of life that has to be taken into account. If this means adopting some preliminary precautions to strengthen the stock, bite the bullet and do it! It's a balancing act between the desirability of the rifle, and the amount of work it might need. Don't rule out an otherwise-acceptable rifle just because it should have some tweaking before firing. Hard-recoiling rifles are a very different breed of cat, and impose different demands on shooter, rifle and ammunition.

MJR007
March 4, 2010, 06:12 PM
I traded my 375HH for a 416rem. I miss the 375.

little joe
March 4, 2010, 08:09 PM
If you decide to get a 416 Rigby one option might be one of a limited run of Ruger M77 Safari's in 416 Rigby.
Lj

Al LaVodka
March 4, 2010, 09:33 PM
416 Rigby. It is a considerably more versatile round than even people who are familiar with the 375 H&H are aware! It is the "one gun" I'd want in Africa, with different loads of course, and is the basis for the (necked down to) .338 Lapua.
Al

TOU
March 15, 2010, 01:19 AM
I like the older BRNO 602 in 458 Lott. You can still shoot the 458 Winchesters in them and the rifle is a little more robust and built on a true Mauser Magnum action.

Not to intrude too much, but I will give a short shamless plug...there is a BEAUTIFUL Brno 602 in 458 WM in the classifieds.

Lourens
August 16, 2010, 03:48 AM
The debate about what BIG BORE to get and how it kicks. I've had the oppertunity to shoot .416Rigby, .458Win Mag and .500Jeffereys at a Big Bore Ass. shoot. All three kick like a mule, what made the differance was the stock fit. The 416 was to small for me, and gave me a bloody nose from kicking up more than back. The 458 was fine, but the 500 fitted like a glove, custom built for the owner and we are the same length (6'3). So the point I'd like to make is no matter the size of the Big Bore you shoot, it is fun, but rather get a custm built one that fits 100%. Then come to Africa and use it for the stuff that can kill you if you make a mistake. 375 and up will do, do not load "Hot" loads, it tends to cause problems and let go big time.

dubbleA
August 16, 2010, 02:26 PM
The debate about what BIG BORE to get and how it kicks. I've had the oppertunity to shoot .416Rigby, .458Win Mag and .500Jeffereys at a Big Bore Ass. shoot. All three kick like a mule, what made the differance was the stock fit. The 416 was to small for me, and gave me a bloody nose from kicking up more than back. The 458 was fine, but the 500 fitted like a glove, custom built for the owner and we are the same length (6'3). So the point I'd like to make is no matter the size of the Big Bore you shoot, it is fun, but rather get a custm built one that fits 100%. Then come to Africa and use it for the stuff that can kill you if you make a mistake. 375 and up will do, do not load "Hot" loads, it tends to cause problems and let go big time.

When it comes to handling recoil, gun fit is a huge factor. The better the fit, the less recoil is going to be transferred into your person.

Greg Koziol
August 16, 2010, 06:05 PM
is this rifle for africa... your not gonna be able to really use any of these rifles for anything other than african hunting or grizzly or moose or bison in the states or elk. A .45-70 has more versatility in my opinion, you can buy or load cartridges and hot or cold as you want them depending on the task.

i think some guides allow a hot loaded .45-70 with proper bullets such as solids or hard cast lead. Grizzly makes a 405 grain punch cartridge which is a 405 grain brass slug made by belt mountain bullets and is pushed out at 2050 fps... i'm sure thats good enough for any game in africa.

Art Eatman
August 16, 2010, 06:29 PM
Greg, what appears to be a consensus among most who've hunted in Africa and spoken of these comparisons seem to believe that the .45-70 is an okay killer, but it's not that much of a charge-stopper. It's that time between the hit and the death which can create serious entertainment for those at a safe distance. Sometimes "Uh-oh" is not what a hunter wants to say.

I lose track of time, but maybe ten years back, Rich Lucibella went to Africa with a .45-70. Probably hunt up the stories and pictures in the Hunt forum at http://www.thefiringline.com Back in 1999-2000? maybe. But he for sure had backup by guys who really knew what they were doing.

Based on actually knowing a guy, I'll take H&H Hunter's word as gospel for anything to do with African hunting and the appropriate guns.

Robert
August 16, 2010, 06:32 PM
I'll take H&H Hunter's word as gospel for anything to do with African hunting and the appropriate guns.
Absolutely. He knows more about African game and the rifles to take them than any 10 people I know. And he is a great guy to boot.

Greg Koziol
August 16, 2010, 06:36 PM
Greg, what appears to be a consensus among most who've hunted in Africa and spoken of these comparisons seem to believe that the .45-70 is an okay killer, but it's not that much of a charge-stopper. It's that time between the hit and the death which can create serious entertainment for those at a safe distance. Sometimes "Uh-oh" is not what a hunter wants to say.

I lose track of time, but maybe ten years back, Rich Lucibella went to Africa with a .45-70. Probably hunt up the stories and pictures in the Hunt forum at http://www.thefiringline.com Back in 1999-2000? maybe. But he for sure had backup by guys who really knew what they were doing.

Based on actually knowing a guy, I'll take H&H Hunter's word as gospel for anything to do with African hunting and the appropriate guns.

Every hunt with a decent guide in africa you will have atleast a few people backing you up... no matter what gun you use, even if you bring a .50BMG. The reason is common sense.. you don't walk into the african bush alone, even in north america it's not wise to venture into the alaska bush without atleast one friend. But in africa you have prides of lions and herds or buffalo and elephant that can stomp you into mush if you don't have atleast a few people backing you up.

a 405 grain brass bullet @ 2000fps is enough for africa... or a 500 grain full metal jacket @ 1600fps. maybe not optimal for elephant, but for cape buffalo, lions, rhino and hipp should be no problem.

A .45-70 lever gun is actually a faster loading than a bolt gun, which may actually be better because while you are reloading with your bolt gun for the next shot, i'll already have 2 or 3 rounds pumped into that sucker while your still getting ready for your next shot.

I'm not condoning the .45-70 here for any joe schmoe... if you have limited experience in hunting and hunting dangerous game with big bores your better of with a .416 rigby or .458 win mag. but for someone who is good with their .45-70 and knows their gun and it's limitation in and out, it should be no problem to kill anything walking this earth

Lourens
August 17, 2010, 08:48 AM
The point is get s real big bore .375H&H and bigger, make sure the rifle fits 100%, to have a custom stock built can't be that many dollars. Shop for a good African hunting Safari. This time of the year is a good time we are at the end of the hunting season and the game that was allocated must be shot by the outfitter otherwise he might not get a concession next season.

H&Hhunter
August 18, 2010, 01:45 PM
Every hunt with a decent guide in africa you will have atleast a few people backing you up... no matter what gun you use, even if you bring a .50BMG. The reason is common sense..

Greg,

That statement is incorrect. On a dangerous game hunt you will have at least one guy called a PH (Professional Hunter) backing you up the old saying goes that anymore than two guns is too many and that is the truth in tight cover. And you will generally have a game scout in attendance who may or may not be armed. I've had game scouts carry anything from a 14 ga greener with bird shot in it to a FAl or an AK. Game scouts are not to be trusted to shoot game off you or back you up in any way.

The PH is the one and only guy who can back you up and on my closest call ever with a buffalo I stopped the bull at close range with my second barrel because the PH's gun was dry. He'd fired both of his barrels already. DO NOT count on a PH or anybody else to pull your a$$ out of the frying pan while DG hunting. You need the skill and equipment to do it all by yourself.

But in africa you have prides of lions and herds or buffalo and elephant that can stomp you into mush if you don't have atleast a few people backing you up.

Prides of lions are not an issue as lions do not generally ambush and attack people when not wounded. Most lions attacks occur at night on sleeping campers. Herds of buffalo also aren't an issue. It's that one pissed off old bull whose had a bad day with lions or an old snare wound or a wounded buff that will attack form close range in thick cover. In which case you want the fastest mounting quickest pointing big bore you can handle and this is what a big bore double gun was designed for. I'll grant you that a good lever gun with the proper (ghost ring) sights is probably a close second in speed and maneuverability to a good double but it would need to be in a real DG caliber the .45-70 doesn't qualify.

Elephant, now you've struck pay dirt when it comes to deadly encounters in the bush elephants are 10 times more likely to attack unprovoked than just about anything else besides a hippo. And more hunters and crew are killed by elephants than any other animal in Africa. If you've never encountered a charge or a mass charge by a herd of elephant you can't possibly understand the stress of the situation but in reality and while the creaming and trees being crashed over are all very impressive the one that generally kills you is the silent one that attacks from close range in thick cover that you don't see until the last moment.

And of those whom I've spoken too who have stopped charges like that and who continue to work in those condition have almost all gone to a .500 NE, .500 Jeff, 505 Gibbs or a .577 double.

Here is the fly in the ointment with the .45-70 on elephant. No matter what Randy Garret has to say the .45-70 WILL NOT reliably penetrate to the brain on a frontal shot on an elephant. Elephants ALWAYS attack from the front so to stop a charge you need a round that will reliably get to the brain on a frontal shot from any angle. And the experienced elephant guys like the big bores .50+ caliber because these rounds will afford some fudge factor and will many times stop and turn an elephant even if the brain is missed. Smaller calibers generally will not, even the .458 WM and the .470 NE.

The .45-70 is completely inadequate for elephant protection. The .375H&H is not as it will reliably get to the brain with solid bullets. In real life conditions on actual game the .375H&H firing a 300 gr solid out penetrates any .45-70 load ever devised.

OH and one last thing the .45-70 isn't legal for DG hunting as it doesn't make the FPE requirements in any African country. Of course we've been through this before so that shouldn't be new information for anybody here. So you may or may not be allowed to hunt DG with it when you show up. More and more places are following the rules and not allowing thew in camp.

45crittergitter
August 27, 2010, 10:37 AM
FWIW:

"The .416s [400 grain solids] will penetrate an elephant's skull from any angle and usually exit. As velocity drops and frontal area (resistance) increases, penetration diminishes, and it diminishes faster with bullets of lower sectional density. At a velocity level below something like 2,100 fps, depending on caliber and bullet weight, you must rule out frontal brain shots on elephant altogether. The .416 is significantly/dramatically more effective on buffalo than the .375 and immeasurably/a great deal better on elephant. Which .416 you choose doesn’t matter much. The .416 Rigby and .416 Remington are ballistically identical and identical in their effects on game. You can throw in the .416 Taylor, .416 Hoffman, .411 KDF, .404 Jeffery and .425 Westley Richards as well. Faster and more powerful are the .416 Weatherby and .416 Dakota and Lazzeroni’s 10.57 Meteor. These are harder-kicking cartridges that offer a good deal more versatility for longer shots at plains game, but on dangerous game at close range offer little practical advantage over the .416 Remington/Rigby ballistics." - Craig Boddington

"If there is a better dangerous-game cartridge than the .416 Remington Magnum, I have yet to use it. When it comes to making potentially nasty things stop happening very quickly with one squeeze of the trigger, no other cartridge I have used comes close to the .416 Weatherby Magnum. I have bagged Cape buffalo with a variety of rifles and cartridges, but Weatherby's .416 is the only one I've seen drop a big bull stone-dead in its tracks with the first shot. It shoots as flat as the .30-06 and delivers a terrible blow at all ranges. I have taken enough African game ranging in size from lion to Cape buffalo with that outfit to be fully convinced it is in a class of its own as a stopping rifle. My favorite all-around, do-it-all load for this rifle, and the one I used to bag that buffalo, is the Barnes 350-grain X-Spitzer pushed to 2800 fps by 120.0 grains of Reloder 22." - Layne Simpson

"If you drive a high-quality, [.416] 400-grain bullet at 2350 fps, it is very deadly. We do not need to argue about the critter involved. It stops charging bull elephants, knocks the lights out of lions, swats bears and big bull elk and can do a remarkably fine job on deer-sized game. Is one case better than the other? Ballistically no, but practically, yes - the Remington. Remington's .416 is probably the most practical and perhaps the best medium-heavy rifle made. In the end, you cannot go wrong, unless you get confused and buy a 45 caliber rifle instead." - Ross Seyfried


Full disclosure: I have a Remington 700 KS in .416 Rem Mag that will print 3-shot MOA groups at 100 yards, and that I paid $400 for brand new in the box. You don't have to go broke.

Robert Wilson
September 12, 2010, 03:17 AM
Phil Shoemaker has just about got me convinced to try the .458 Winchester. I have several "stopping" rifles, including a .416 Rigby, but they're all pretty nice rifles: fine walnut, perfect bluing, quarter ribs, etcetera. Phil's "Ole Ugly" .458, built on a Mauser action with a synthetic stock and finished in Rustoleum strikes a different, maybe more practical (if a North American hunter can be excused for calling a .45 caliber rifle "practical") kind of rifle. I can envision a knockabout gun, maybe with a ghost ring sight, maybe loaded with a 400 grain X bullet at 1900 FPS or even a cast bullet at 1200-1700 FPS, as a fun way to thunk short range pigs, to carry on rainy days, and just to bum around the woods without worrying about fancy wood, etc.

And yes, I am familiar with the arguments for the Lott, and at least partially buy into them, at least for the African hunter. But I am also convinced when Phil notes that with modern powders, the Winchester meets its original specification without difficulty -- and 500 grains at 2150 is more than enough!

And yes, I also admit that the various .416s are more "practical" (there's that word again) with full power loads, but there is one thing I bear in mind: I am aware of a grand total of one mould for .416 bullets -- the 350 grain flat point from RCBS, which doesn't cycle perfectly in my bolt gun. The options for the .45, though, are nearly limitless. For the experimenter and woods loafer who enjoys big bullets, the .458 bore makes an awful lot of sense...

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