Rainier 125 Gr Copper Plated FP in 38 special


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crooked stripe
August 19, 2010, 09:40 PM
I am having a impossible time finding a powder charge in Bullseye power for these bullets. I bought 500 at a garage sale for 15 bucks. I see other powders that I could use but all I have is Bullseye. Can I use it and where can I find out how much powder to use for putting holes in paper plates. I am new to reloading and I spend more time reading than loading. I sure hope this gets easier with time and experience. John

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bds
August 19, 2010, 10:03 PM
This is load data from Alliant's website for jacketed bullet. I would use 10%+ less, like 3.5 - 4.0 gr at the same OAL and work up from 3.5 gr - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=125&shellid=26&bulletid=28&bdid=60

125 gr Speer GDHP Bullseye 1.44" OAL Bullseye 4.5 gr 914 fps

I hope this helps

Maj Dad
August 19, 2010, 10:44 PM
Alliant lists 4.5 gr for the Speer 125 JHP, so based on the info below, I'd try 4 gr. to start & see how it goes. I use their bullets with superb results - my Glock 21 will shoot the 230 gr into 3 in at 25 yds using 5.4 gr BE (IIRC - always an iffy thing late at night in the recliner... ;) )

This is from Ranier's website (http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm ):

We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using lead bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets; hence the recommendation to use lead bullet load data. If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend reducing maximum charge by 10%. A roll or taper crimp may be used with our bullets; do not over crimp.

rick300
August 20, 2010, 12:52 AM
What are you shooting these from? If it will shoot .357 I have had good luck with Berry's 125 gn pfp over 7 gns of bullseye. Ruger gp 100 6". Don't put this load in a 38 special case. Hope this helps, Rick

crooked stripe
August 20, 2010, 07:29 AM
I think I will buy another powder that is listed and I will still be under the price of purchasing new shells. I appreciate all the info you folks are supplying but at this point in my reloading experience I don't understand your reasoning with varying the powder charges. May be in time I will feel more confident in trying different unlisted loads. The 357 case info never entered my mind as being shot from a 38. I thought it was the other way around.

bullseye308
August 20, 2010, 09:01 AM
Bullseye is a great powder. You really need to pay attention so you don't get a double charge, as it can easily be done and not look much different in a 38 oe a 357 case. That said, if your pistol is a 357, you can use either 357 brass, or 38 spl brass in it interchangably. If your pistol is a 38, you are limited to 38 only. Both are good, I personally prefer the 357 for the versatility. Maj Dad & bds gave you good info and a starting point for your loads. I'd start at 3.5 and go from there. For punching paper plated will be just fine, and should be accurate enough. Have fun and ask away if you need more help with anything.

crooked stripe
August 20, 2010, 10:05 AM
I guess I got confused. I stated in my title 38 special so I didn't understand all the 357 info. Sorry, John

evan price
August 20, 2010, 11:42 AM
John, the Speer Gold Dot is also a bonded/plated bullet and will have a siilar profile and amount of slug in the case. Alliant as most powder companies do, will publish the most restrictive data they can find, knowing that you can always do better by changing bullets.

You should have no trouble starting around 3.5-4.0 grains and working the load from there.

rcmodel
August 20, 2010, 12:20 PM
I think I will buy another powder that is listedDon't waste your money.

Factory .38 Special ammo was loaded with Bullseye powder for about 75 years.
It is just about the perfect powder for your 125 grain plated bullets.

Rainer suggests you use lead bullet load data with their plated bullets.
Alliant lists a 125 grain "Cowboy" load with a 125 grain lead bullet using MAX 4.8 grains Bullseye giving 1,024 FPS.

If you want lighter plinking loads you can reduce it all the way down to a 3.2 grains starting load for about 600 FPS.
Or anywhere in between.

rc

bullseye308
August 20, 2010, 01:55 PM
I guess I got confused. I stated in my title 38 special so I didn't understand all the 357 info. Sorry, John

I added the 357 info in case you had a 357 and were shooting 38's out of it. Lots of folks do it, but not everyone knows about it. It was a just in cae kinds thing. :o

bds
August 20, 2010, 02:16 PM
FYI, if you want to shoot 38 Spl loads in your 357, load your 38 bullets/powder using 357 cases and your cylinder will be cleaner near the barrel end. ;)

Bush Pilot
August 20, 2010, 06:09 PM
Bullseye is the chicken soup of loading for .38 sp. I've shot thousands of plated (and lead) 125 gr slugs using 3.5 grs of Bullseye. If there's a better powder for your needs I'd be hard pressed to name it.

zxcvbob
August 20, 2010, 06:26 PM
Red Dot *might* be better for 125 grain bullets (about 4.0 grains.) But not a lot better.

Try 4.0 grains of BE, and work up to about 4.4 grains or down to about 3.5.

stodd
August 21, 2010, 01:10 AM
+1 for RCModel... I just loaded up some 125 grain FP X-treme bullets which my understand are just about the same bullets both plated bullets.

I used 3.2, 3.3, 3.4 and 3.5 grains of bullseye. Out of these 4 different charges the 3.3 and 3.4 grain charges shoot the best for me with a grouping of about 4". It was just a hair windy today, but the 3.3 and 3.4 grains shoot very good.

crooked stripe
August 21, 2010, 04:57 PM
stodd, this brings up another question. On my Lee powder measure there are no holes for 3.2-3.3 or 3.4 they start at 3.5. Do you use a trickeler for these loads or does your loader handle loads in small increments? This is one reason I was looking for another powder, I wanted to load up a hundred or so with out taking the time to trickle each shell.

Red Cent
August 21, 2010, 05:26 PM
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38%20Special&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357%20Magnum&Weight=125&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

3leggeddog
August 22, 2010, 11:11 AM
It would be in your best interest to by the NEW Lyman Third Edition
" Pistol + Revolver " Hand Book . All the info you need is in there,its been up-dated to all the newer powers / loads. It also goes threw the steps of reloading quite well. It's the best $20.00 I've spent!!! Be carefully of some of these down loadable charts- I've found some their MAX loads to be very hot!!!

Bullseye is a good powder, start low ,work up in steps. I have a M+P 9mm with a 3.5 in barrel. I tried 3.3 gr , 3.5gr and 3.7gr ... Being its a Automatic it shoots best with 3.7 gr of Bullseye. But thats MY gun, your's may like 3.5 gr. or less/more ???? I hope this helps you.

rcmodel
August 22, 2010, 12:59 PM
Lee powder measure there are no holes for 3.2-3.3 or 3.4 they start at 3.5.3.5 Bullseye under a 125 grain plated bullet would be a mighty fine light load.
There is no reason to go any lower then that.

rc

ScratchnDent
August 22, 2010, 06:08 PM
I've loaded and shot a couple thousand of the Ranier 125 gr FPs over 3.5 grains of Bullseye.

It's a very pleasant, mild load.

Walkalong
August 22, 2010, 07:17 PM
3.5 Bullseye under a 125 grain plated bullet would be a mighty fine light load. There is no reason to go any lower then that.
Absolutely.

crooked stripe
August 22, 2010, 07:55 PM
I fired off 2 of the first 7 I loaded. 3.5 grains of Titegroup through a #30 hole of a Lee powder disk and every other load was measured with a RCBS 10-10 powder scale that balanced right on the money. Recoil was way less than a factory load. Maybe half. I shot them into a 5 gallon bucket of sand covered by a old towel to keep the sand from flying all over the place. First bounced off the towel and landed on the floor. (don't laugh) and the second made it through the towel and disappeared in the sand. I called a friend and he said the shells weren't crimped tight enough. I followed the instructs that came with the dies as far as settings go then recrimped after checking the settings again. My friend is stopping tomorrow to check things out. At last I placed a factory load next to mine and the crimp is a lot more rolled over and is very shinny around the crimp. No way a factory crimp can be done with the settings written in the instructions. I am learning one must have quite a bit of experience reloading before buying his own press and starting from scratch like me.

Walkalong
August 22, 2010, 08:35 PM
I see other powders that I could use but all I have is Bullseye
I'm confused. We have been talking Bullseye all along. Where did the Titegroup come from?

Anyway, I taper crimp plated bullets in .38 Spl and .357. All it takes is a little bit. Sounds like you may have poor neck tension.

My Speer #13 gives 4.5 Grains Titegroup with 125 Gr jacketed bullets for 933 FPS with a do not reduce warning. That is for fear of jacket separation. No problem with plated, but 3.5, as you found out, is very light. I would try at least 4.0 Grs Titegroup. It will still be light, but should be able to at least kill a towel.

I use 4.0 Grs of Clays with a very similar Berrys 125 Gr TrFP in .357 brass. It gives around 900 FPS and is very light recoil.

This load appears safe in my guns with my reloading technique. Start low and work up

It is of course, being fired in .357 mag guns capable of handling .357 mag pressures.

Centaur 1
August 22, 2010, 09:48 PM
I found that 3.8 gr of bullseye works great in a .38 with either 125 gr plated or my cast 158 gr swc. I also use the same 3.8 gr under 125 gr rn cast in 9mm. Same powder charge works great for all three. I just recently got a lee powder measure from a friend, prior to that I just always used a scoop. I made my own scoop from a filed down .380 case that I put a handle on.

crooked stripe
August 22, 2010, 10:20 PM
Walkalong, at the time all I had was Bullseye but the Lees manual doesn't list a fast burning powder like Bullseye for 125 grain copper plated bullets. Lees only lists slower burning power like Titegroup, Accur#5 and v-3N37. Bullseye is not even near copper plated bullets in the listings. Not understanding everything I need to know, I was afraid to substitute even though you great folks are suggesting loads to use. The unknown is what scares me about loading. When I see it written I feel better. I hope you understand and I haven't created any hurt feelings. I hope in time I will fit in better as I gain experience.
The instructions given with Lees equipment leave much to desired. I will post the outcome of my findings. Thanks again for all the info. So far this hobby has me addicted. John

crooked stripe
August 22, 2010, 10:31 PM
One thing I forgot to mention, if I had a powder measure I could dial in to .10s of a grain I wouldn't have to sidestep the different powders to get what is listed on the charts and the numbers given here.

bds
August 23, 2010, 12:12 AM
Lees manual doesn't list a fast burning powder like Bullseye for 125 grain copper plated bullets.
I always try to use the "current" powder manufacturers' load data for the following reason. Many posted on other threads that powder manufacturers and reloading manuals changed load data over the years.

Keep in mind that many powder companies merged and got sold/bought by another. If powder formulation/recipes/source changed, so will the load data (not just because their lawyers told them to) as powder manufacturers will conduct pressure tests on new powder formulation/recipes. Often, the same powder company may have formulation/recipe change if their contract vendor changes source materials. This is the reason why I recommend to new reloaders to reference the reloading manuals for case processing and reloading procedures, but use the most current load data from powder manufacturers' websites or current year load data brochures.

Also, If I can't find lead load data, I use reduced jacketed load data (10-15% reduction) and work up in 0.2-0.3 gr increments.

Be safe and have fun reloading!

bds
August 23, 2010, 12:17 AM
if I had a powder measure I could dial in to .10s of a grain I wouldn't have to sidestep the different powders to get what is listed on the charts and the numbers given here.
What powder measure are you using?

evan price
August 23, 2010, 01:48 AM
at the time all I had was Bullseye but the Lees manual doesn't list a fast burning powder like Bullseye for 125 grain copper plated bullets. Lees only lists slower burning power like Titegroup, Accur#5 and v-3N37. Bullseye is not even near copper plated bullets in the listings. Not understanding everything I need to know, I was afraid to substitute even though you great folks are suggesting loads to use.


...if I had a powder measure I could dial in to .10s of a grain ...

First of all, Titegroup is just as fast as Bullseye- they are both fast powders like 700-X, most burn rate charts put them as close as is no matter. 3n37 and #5 are medium/fast pistol powders like 800-X.

Second of all, measuring accurate tenths of a grain- in pistols- is not really that important. The Lee charts will show an approximate VMD value for each powder and the approximate drop amount from a certain disk opening. Lee allows a healthy amrgin for safety to include variances in powder and manufacturing and it is rare that they drop heavy. Usually they are .1 or .2 grains light.

To be short, you are really, really, overthinking this and making it a lot more complex than it needs to be. Straight wall pistol reloading, and especially .38 Specials, are as simple as simple can be. You don't need to meet a performance number for the bullet trajectory (like rifles) because you are talking short ranges. You only need to be within spec as "good enough" to shoot them in a pistol. Honestly, the 38 Special is such a sweetheart to reload, especially in a simple setup like a plated 125-grain bullet over a fast powder, you should not have these worries.

crooked stripe
August 23, 2010, 02:00 PM
I have a Lee Auto Disk powder measure. I also have micro disc set up for my 32 auto.
I do carry things to far at times. I think reading all the warnings has me intimidated and I want to do things the safest way. I don't know what circumstances would result using a #1 powder and a #5 powder. (powder power scale) I am learning this from you folks and other reloading forums. Just like crimping, all I can do is go by the instructions, then recheck to make sure I have done it right. You can see the results I got and I have no clue where to go from there. I have ordered two more books in hopes of finding more information on this process. I didn't know pistol ammunition was more forgiving than rifle ammunition. I always though a bullet was a bullet. Keep the info coming if you would. I really appreciate it. John

Walkalong
August 23, 2010, 03:55 PM
Here is a thread with some crimp pics (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815&page=2). No instructions, but your load books cover that.

With a 125 Gr plated bullet and a light charge of fast powder in .38 or .357 brass all you need is to remove the bell really. A light crimp is good, and will help, but won't make a night and day difference.

About 3.5 to 4.0 Grs of Bullseye (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=125&shellid=26&bulletid=28) should make an excellent light load in .38 or .357 brass with that Ranier 125 Gr TrFP bullet.

Centaur 1
August 23, 2010, 06:13 PM
Walkalong, you're da man. I've just been lurking and trying to educate myself by listening to what everyone else is going through. Post number 37 on the crimping thread that you linked to was awesome. You can talk back and forth, but seeing how long the taper crimp is, and having you show the actual dimensions at the various points along the cartridge really helps me understand a taper crimp. I was so busy trying to "see" a "taper" versus a "roll" at the case mouth that I ignored the obvious. The kick in the butt is that I'm a retired tool and die maker, and I have many thousands of dollars in all sorts of measuring tools in my garage. Thanks for the visualization, a picture really is worth a thousand words. :D

bds
August 23, 2010, 09:48 PM
+1 to Walkalong's picture threads - "A picture is worth a thousand words" He also has a nice picture thread on determining max OAL. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678)

John/crooked stripe, I also use Pro Auto Disk and you can readily determine the approximate powder charge using the Auto Disk table (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leeprecision.com%2Fcgi-data%2Finstruct%2FAD2302.pdf&ei=FhVzTK2UA42ksQOH_ZCcDQ&usg=AFQjCNEGQHpVNfvhQa5PI8m8_LVxKteTfw&sig2=EmdpvkyF9PbhqK3KaxPRpg) (table on page 2 is sideways, so do Edit > Rotate Right and the table will turn right side up). If the charge you want falls between two measures, I use the lower charge (0.1-0.2 gr won't make that much difference).

I always verify the charge weights from the first few throws to make sure the powder has sufficiently settled and the charge is where it should be. If I need a slight increase (0.2-0.3 gr), I will use the next larger size hole.

crooked stripe
August 23, 2010, 10:16 PM
What is the difference between my 125 grain copper coated flat points and say 125 grain full metal jacket bullet and 125 grain plated hollow point. I notice the loading is different even tho the weight stays the same. John

bds
August 23, 2010, 10:40 PM
What is the difference between my 125 grain copper coated flat points and say 125 grain full metal jacket bullet and 125 grain plated hollow point.
Nothing in terms of bullet weight and diameter. In terms of bullet nose profile and how far the base of the bullet goes into the case neck to affect chamber pressure, a lot (that's why you should match bullet nose type when using published load data).

Many plated bullets like Berry's and PowerBond have bullet diameter that's between jacketed and lead bullets. Because of the tighter bullet to barrel fit, Berry's recommends that you load their plated bullets using lead load data.

Rainier Ballistics (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=1050372030) however, advertises their bullet diameter as same as jacketed and you should be able to use jacketed load data. I have shot Rainier plated bullets for quite many years using mid-high range jacketed load data.

Rainier LeadSafe Bullets 38 Caliber (357 Diameter) 125 Grain Plated Flat Nose

bds
August 23, 2010, 10:55 PM
Correction, Rainier/Berry's/PowerBond all advertise their 38/357 bullets as 0.357" diameter.

Berry's 9mm (0.3555"-0.356") and 45ACP (0.452") bullets are larger in diameter than jacketed bullets (0.355" and 0.451").

rcmodel
August 24, 2010, 12:28 PM
Berry's recommends that you load their plated bullets using lead load data.No, they don't.

This from the Berry Web Site FAQ:

Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

rc

evan price
August 25, 2010, 06:52 AM
I have had good results using jacketed loads for plated bullets. I don't push them beyond a normal speed for jacketed, however.

Most load data actually tests a variety of different bullet styles of the same weight and publishes the data that results in a "worst case" scenario for pressure. I know Hodgdon does this. This is because if you choose a different mfg. of bullet, you will not be in worse shape (higher pressure) using their data.

This is when comparing stuff of similar profile!

Basically, if the weight is the same, the diameter is the same, and the amount of bullet inside the case is the same, and the bearing surface is the same, it will load pretty much the same.

Walkalong
August 25, 2010, 08:27 AM
A link to some plated bullet data (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6195350&postcount=11).

bds
August 25, 2010, 10:08 PM
When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx
rcmodel, I stand corrected.

Well, lead load data is often below low/mid-range load data, so you could always work up from there for "light/mild target load" :D

Berry's MFG
August 27, 2010, 06:07 PM
The reason we ask everyone to start with a mid-range jacketed or lead load data is:

Hard Cast Data - Plated bullets have the same pressure curve as typical linotype hard cast bullet. The same powder charge with a hardcast or plated vs. a jacketed will result in lower velocities for the jacketed. This is because the jacket is a work hardened surface that has a greater resistance in the barrel.

Jacketed Midrange Data - Is a good starting point to work up data for since most of the shooters already have data for jacketed.

We also make a statement to keep the bullets loaded to no more than the 1200FPS mark. I have run our 155gr .40 bullets in my Tanfoglio Limited 10mm at velocities beyond that with great results. We just have to draw a line in the sand since people seem to push the drawn limits.

We have constantly improved our bullet profiles and have added plating as we have gone along over the past 8 or so years. I am hoping to finish testing in our tunnel to see if we can publish a greater fps with our current generation of bullets. As it is there are only a handful of commercially available calibers that would push any pistol bullet beyond 1300fps, and those are long barreled hunting pistols that would not use a plated bullet anyway.

Sorry if I rambled on, let me know if I left anyone dazed and confused:confused:

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