My attempt at a poster...


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BrokenPaw
December 10, 2003, 11:52 AM
I imagine Oleg could do a better job with this, especially because I had trouble finding good high-res images for it, and I imagine he has better resources in that department.

I was thinking about the fact that many of us get frustrated about how there are gun owners out there (especially among hunters and shotgunners) who don't bother to fight for their rights, because they assume that no one will ever try to take them away. That reminded me of the writing by Pastor Martin Niemöller, called "First They Came for the Jews".

I haven't seen a poster that runs along these lines, so I gave it a shot:
http://www.griffonsoftware.com/pics/poster.jpg

Any thoughts?

-BP

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armoredman
December 10, 2003, 12:21 PM
Nice! Not bad at all, sir!:cool:

TonyB
December 10, 2003, 12:23 PM
I like it.......using it as my desk top.....


























:cool: :cool: :cool:

AJ Dual
December 10, 2003, 12:31 PM
Three suggested changes:

Make the machinegun an image of a Thompson. A bit more contextual to the 1934 NFA, and more "American" looking than the MP5 is.

Choose a different gun for the "cheap pistol", use something darker, like a blued Jennings, Raven etc. It will show up better in the faded watermark layer of the pic. also flip it so it points in the same direction as the long guns.

Add a scope to the lever-action to make the "sniper rifle" as part of the faded background layer it's too close to the shotgun in appearance to the less knowledgable.

Otherwise, it's excellent as is if you really don't feel like re-doing it. In the imaginary gunshop I own in my mind, it's up there on the wall with several of Olegs posters.

Font choice, composition, layout, etc. is excellent. I give it an "A". Make the suggested changes and it's an "A+".

You did a very good job.

TallPine
December 10, 2003, 12:37 PM
Exactly!

Thanks, BrokenPaw

BrokenPaw
December 10, 2003, 12:56 PM
AW: Thanks for the feedback!

Good idea on the tommygun. I'll see if I can find a good pic for it. The reason there's an HK in there is because HK is what I think of when I think "full auto". Well, that and the M-16, but I needed an obvious contrast with the AR-15 in the next image.

You're right, the cheap pistol is too light; I was unhappy about how it washed out when I knocked it down to 50% like that. I'll see about finding a darker one. And you're right about flipping it, too. Dang. :)

You're right about the scope, too. I had trouble finding a good-quality pic of a hunting rifle that was scoped, had wood furniture, and a white background. I'd just take a pic of my Win70 at home, but it's all-composite, so that might look too "tactical".

I'll see if I can redo it and incorporate your suggestions. But when I visit your imaginary gunshop, I expect a sizeable discount! :D

Better still, maybe we can bet Oleg to take this design, and make up a real full-quality poster out of it. If it went on a shirt, I'd sure as heck buy one!

-BP

BHPshooter
December 10, 2003, 12:57 PM
That's very good. I remember that writing, "first they came for the jews." My High School history teacher had it on his wall. When I first read it, it gave me chills. Your poster did the same.

Great work.

Wes

TheeBadOne
December 10, 2003, 01:01 PM
I like it. :cool:

Brian Williams
December 10, 2003, 01:09 PM
Great poster and it will go into the rotation on my desktop

Here is a pic of my Win Mod 70 Classic Compact that you could use


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=614013

BrokenPaw
December 10, 2003, 01:21 PM
Ok, I reworked the thing based on AW's feedback:
http://www.griffonsoftware.com/pics/poster2.jpg

Thanks for the pics, Perfessr; I saw them after I was able to find a decent pic on Google Image Search by widening my search parameters a bit.

-BP

slh02
December 10, 2003, 02:18 PM
The new version is most excellent. Great Job!

rayjay
December 10, 2003, 02:18 PM
that looks perfect. I like it.

abaddon
December 10, 2003, 02:29 PM
I like the concept, but I'm not sure it works logically. When they took the Jews first they killed and imprisoned them, making it impossible for them to speak out when they came for others. When they took the machine guns, on the other hand, the previous owners of the machine guns were still around to speak out against other encroachments. Thus, the analogy doesn't work because the encroachments on the second amendment are very different from what the Nazis did to the Jews.

I really have objections to this because in my eyes it minimizes the holocaust. This reminds me of People for the Ethical Treatment for Animals' "holocaust on your plate" campaign. They equated the eating of meat with the killing of Jews in the holocaust. They were condemned by basically every thinking person who responded and rightly so - their campaign minimized the holocaust by comparing it to something less important. Your poster is better because a case could be made linking the confiscation of guns with the holocaust, but it should be spelled out better. As it stands I strongly disagree with it.

Jeff

AJ Dual
December 10, 2003, 02:46 PM
Perfect!

The quote about 1930's Germany and the guns both hold. It's about each group in line about to get stomped by totalitarianisim not speaking up for the group that got slaughtered before them because they were "different". It works both ways.

It wasn't just about the Jews speaking out for others, it also was the Communists, gypsies, and Catholics not speaking up for the groups that went to the concentration camps before it was their "turn".

It's like algebra, you can run it forwards or backwards, and it holds true both ways.

Also, it hardly denigrates the Holocaust, since most here would agree, and you yourself, that a lack of arms and the willingness to use them was a direct contributor to it. The PETA ad was just dumb. It equated a normal human function, eating, with the Holocaust. The second most important Ammendment in the Bill of Rights is, IMO.

I'd leave it to the JPFO if they think it denigrates the Holocaust or not.

Besides, this piece is not meant to reach non-gunners, only the segments lower on the food-chain that don't "get it" yet, the hunters, claybusters, and the guy with one pistol for home protection that dosen't think about his gun ownership politically. It is not for general consumption.

BrokenPaw
December 10, 2003, 02:55 PM
Abaddon,

I guess I see the point you're making, but I don't agree with it. There are many people who believe that the piecemeal erosion of our rights is a precursor to eventual subjugation.

The Nazi regime did not commit the holocaust overnight; they nibbled away at the corners of society, at first, like termites. They took steps that seemed innocuous to most people, until all of those steps added up to a strong position from which they could commit atrocities with impunity.

The Holocaust was evil, pure and simple. But it was evil that was executed masterfully. We must learn from it, because others already have.

I do not wish to minimize what was done to the Jews (among others). But I did wish to make a point: what was done once can be done again, if people let their rights be nibbled away.

Have you noticed that the bans have progressed more or less along a continuum of military facility? If there were to be another revolution, what weapons, in order, would the insurgents want? Machine guns, high-capacity semi-auto rifles, plentiful inexpensive handguns, and powerful scoped guns. In that order. If the bans continue, shotguns will be the last to go, because they're of the least usefulness to a rebellious population, not because duck hunters have more political clout than everyone else.

As for the logic of it, I partially agree with you. Even if they took away every gun in the country, most of the people would still be here to speak out.

But why would the ruling class bother listening?

-BP

(Mods: Sorry, this post might drag the thread into Legal & Political territory... please move it if appropriate)

BrokenPaw
December 10, 2003, 02:57 PM
Besides, this piece is not meant to reach non-gunners, only the segments lower on the food-chain that don't "get it" yet, the hunters, claybusters, and the guy with one pistol for home protection that dosen't think about his gun ownership politically. It is not for general consumption. Bingo. Andrew's hit the nail on the head.

-BP

abaddon
December 10, 2003, 03:06 PM
I think the problem here is that most of us on this board take for granted that the gradual degradation of gun rights leads to totalitarianism. But this is not an argument that the average person hears often. I think when we, as gun enthusiasts, see posters like this we automatically think of that argument, but I don't think this poster spells out that argument enough for the average guy to get it. The average person who sees this poster would not automatically associate the Holocaust and gun confiscation as we tend to. Some would look at the attempts to equate taking Jews with taking guns as shoddy reasoning. If you included more detail about the gradual encroachment on rights then I do not think they would think this because then the link between the Holocaust and gun confiscation would be clearer.

Jeff

Remington Employee
December 10, 2003, 03:07 PM
I'm going to send your final poster to all of my friends as an attachment to any e-mail I send this week!
I hope you don't mind..
I wish I had the talent with photoshop to do such things.

abaddon
December 10, 2003, 03:09 PM
"It's about each group in line about to get stomped by totalitarianisim not speaking up for the group that got slaughtered before them because they were "different". It works both ways."

I know, but the people who get their guns taken away are not getting "slaughtered". They will still be around to speak up when the tyrants come to take other's guns.

TallPine
December 10, 2003, 03:14 PM
When they took the machine guns, on the other hand, the previous owners of the machine guns were still around to speak out against other encroachments.
No, a lot of them are in federal prison serving long sentences.

If you don't think so, try converting one of your semi-autos and see where you end up.

dav
December 10, 2003, 03:22 PM
Abaddon, I can see the point you are making, about the earlier people still being available (although I would have to temper it with "if they didn't speak up earlier, why will they now?").

But I can't agree it is important.

This is a masterfully executed poster. It meets the requirement for conciseness. Expanding it to explain what it means to those who don't "get it" would detract from the message far more than it would add.

BrokenPaw, I commend you. Excellent work. I think I'll try out your t-shirt idea... ink jet printer and an iron on transfer.

AmericanFreeBird
December 10, 2003, 03:23 PM
Very nice, I like it!

MikeK
December 10, 2003, 04:03 PM
The last version is great! Look out Oleg.

Oleg Volk
December 10, 2003, 04:20 PM
Excellent work, both captions and layout! Would love to see that printed up big. Let me know if I can help with high-res images.

BluesBear
December 10, 2003, 04:35 PM
I LIKE IT!


too bad I was too late to contribute

The Undertoad
December 10, 2003, 05:01 PM
Looks really good. :) I think it gets the message across. I will print out a few copies for my shooting friends who are not politically active...

Mama06
December 10, 2003, 05:30 PM
I like it. My only suggestion would be send it to the NRA. :)

MaterDei
December 10, 2003, 06:00 PM
Just a nit, but you might want to consider replacing 'cheap' with 'inexpensive'.

I like it a lot. Good job.

BowStreetRunner
December 10, 2003, 06:47 PM
that is a GREAT poster :)

Ryder
December 10, 2003, 06:59 PM
Only question is how are you going to get this in the face of those who need to see it?

I'll print a copy for my gun club's cork board. Just think if everyone did that! Might just wake up the conscience of a a few gun snob's.

Oleg Volk
December 10, 2003, 07:00 PM
"cheap"---->"affordable"

cool45auto
December 10, 2003, 07:37 PM
Very nice!:cool:

Joe Gunns
December 10, 2003, 09:09 PM
Great!!

RTFM
December 11, 2003, 09:39 AM
Ok, so my M-203 wallpaper did not last long (about 30 min.)
Very well done.

RTFM

Daedalus
December 11, 2003, 10:47 AM
Inside the trigger and under the scope on hte hunting rifle is a yellow section. Change that to white and I will print out a copy of it and tack it up at my local skeet range.

BrokenPaw
December 11, 2003, 11:23 AM
The reason I went with "Cheap" versus "Inexpensive" or something else was mostly for space reasons; "a cheap" is a heck of a lot shorter than "an inexpensive", and I wanted to keep the text in as large a font as possible while still maintaining the line breaks that mimic the original writing.

I also actually like the semi-pejorative term "cheap" in this context, because it'll ring true in the minds of people who didn't care about "junk gun" legislation. The reason they didn't care about the legislation, in part, was because they considered those guns "cheap" in both senses; inexpensive and shoddy. Part of the point of the poster is that it shouldn't matter to them, so even if the guns are not high-quality, banning them is still a Bad Thing.

Heck, we don't ban "cheap" cars because some thug might use one to get away after jacking up a 7-11... but I digress.

Inside the trigger and under the scope on hte hunting rifle is a yellow section. Oops, you're right. I must not have been paying attention when I edited that image. Ok, I've fixed it!

-BP

bfason
December 11, 2003, 11:53 AM
I like the poster. I like the message that it sends to the target audience of sportsman who think that their shotguns and hunting rifles will be safe from the gun-banners.

The Nazi regime did not commit the holocaust overnight; they nibbled away at the corners of society, at first, like termites. They took steps that seemed innocuous to most people, until all of those steps added up to a strong position from which they could commit atrocities with impunity.

I beg to differ. Hitler became Chancellor on 30 January 1933. Within his first year year, among other things he:

1) opened Dachau concentration camp near Munich, followed by Buchenwald near Weimar in central Germany, Sachsenhausen near Berlin in northern Germany, and Ravensbrück for women;

2) created the Gestapo;

3) banned Jews from public employment;

4) raided the offices of the Communist Pary, Social Democratic party, and trade unions, arrested their members, and confiscated their properties;

5) prohibited Jews from owning land;

6) declared the Nazi Party the only legal political party;

7) obtained dictatorial powers under the Enabling Act.

The Nazis didn't nibble as much as they gobbled up civil society. His opponents were so divided in the face of his onslaught they were run over.

Pebcac
December 11, 2003, 12:34 PM
True, he pulled all that off in one year or so, but it must be remembered that the Nazi party had been active for years, collecting increasing numbers of seats in the Reichstag. By the time Hitler was made Chancellor, the Reichstag members were either Nazi or those afraid of Nazis.

I like the poster a lot. I don't think it denigrates the memory of those lost in the Holocaust simply because it takes off of a quote regarding the Holocaust.

Rebel Gunman HK
December 11, 2003, 12:37 PM
Well done. I wish there were more posters like these availible for purchase.

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