Titegroup problem


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Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 11:53 AM
I've started loading 38SP to shoot in my 357 to save money. Bought a jug of Titegroup,but the balance beam scale that came with the RCBS reload kit I bought gives me inconsistent charges every time. Is this typical for Titegroup or do I need a better scale or could the problem be the powder throw that came with the kit?? I loaded 50 rounds each with Hornady HP/XTP 110gr,125gr,and 158gr.,weighing every single charge and chasing the grains I wanted back and forth. Now I'm off to the range to try some out. Is there a better powder for 38Sp shot in a 6" GP100?

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mjyeagle
August 21, 2010, 11:59 AM
i shoot titegroup in my 357 none of the problems you mentoned i have a rcbs uniflow dispencer and a rcbs 5-0-2 scale mabey this helps

Jesse Heywood
August 21, 2010, 12:09 PM
Titegroup is one of the better metering powders that I have. As far as better powders, there are always better ones. You just have to try them in your gun to find out.Other good one for 38/357 include W231, Unique, Red Dot, 700-X. There's a long list.

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 12:16 PM
I'm using a 5-0-5 scale and a uniflow powder measure. The variations are not huge,one right on the line,next one may be just above the line,then one just below,etc. Titegroup leaves little room for error,according to the chart I used at this site: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp . Only .3 grains with some bullets. Am I being too picky?

CraigC
August 21, 2010, 12:21 PM
Titegroup is very consistent running through my RCBS Uniflow. Meters much better than Unique with charges under 6.0gr.

JoelSteinbach
August 21, 2010, 12:33 PM
Never had any problems with Tite Group, with RCBS, Redding or Dillon dispensers. My 38 spec rpouns are always consistent .

Hondo 60
August 21, 2010, 12:38 PM
+ 4 or 5 or whatever. I have no problems with titegroup.
That's all I use for my 38 spl & 357 mag
I use the Lee Pro auto disc and get very consistent throws.

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 12:46 PM
Thanks guys,but that doesn't give me any idea where to start. Any ideas?

rcmodel
August 21, 2010, 12:51 PM
Well, the first place to start is to rule out the scales being inconsistent.

Just weigh the same powder charge, empty case, or whatever over and over again and see if it comes out the same weight every time.

If it doesn't, you may not have a level workbench, or you may have a fan or A/C vent blowing on the scales. Or you might even have dust or oil on the knife-edge bearing surfaces.

Scales have to be perfectly clean, and bubble-level level sideways, and zeroed with an empty pan endwise to work right.

Powder measures have to be operated exactly the same way each time.

If you bang the handle one time, then slowly ease it down the next time, you will get different charge weights.
If you let it run almost dry, then re-fill the hopper, you will get different weights until the powder settles down again.

rc

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 12:58 PM
Level scale is not an option. You set zero by raising and lowering it via an adjustable foot on one end.....unless setting it to zero DOES level it.

rcmodel
August 21, 2010, 01:04 PM
Read what I said again.

bubble-level level sideways, and zeroed with an empty pan endwise to work right.

rc

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 01:05 PM
rcmodel "If you bang the handle one time, then slowly ease it down the next time, you will get different charge weights.
If you re-fill the hopper, you will get different weights until the powder settles down again."

This must be my problem. I'm new to reloading and I do try to operate the throw the same every time,but I could be losing concentration doing 50 rounds. I've checked and rechecked a charge several times with the same result.
Is there a better balance beam scale than this one? I do not wish to shell out big bucks for a decent digital.

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 01:06 PM
Thanks,rcmodel. I hadn't caught that. I'm headed for the reload bench right now to check this out.

Jim Watson
August 21, 2010, 01:08 PM
It is not reasonable to expect the exact same charge every time. A ball process powder like Titegroup will measure very well at +/- 0.1 grain and probably be closer than factory ammunition.

LRS_Ranger
August 21, 2010, 01:17 PM
I am using a RCBS uniflow with titegroup and haven't noticed much variation. It's always within .1 grains, usually a lot less than that. I slightly tap the charge handle at the bottom and top of each throw, just for consistancy. I charge 200 cases at a time too, just so I can stay consistant.

Walkalong
August 21, 2010, 02:14 PM
After filling the measure, run at least 10 charges through the measure before weighing charges and using them. Some powders settle down much faster than that, but some take quite a few throws.

Work the handle the same every time.

Keep the powder level close to the same all the time. I use a baffle to do this. It keeps the weight of the powder on the insert very stable.

Jesse Heywood
August 21, 2010, 02:41 PM
Also, do you have a baffle in the measure? One makes a huge difference. There are instructions on this board for making one. And, which meter are you using? I had problems getting the large meter to work with charges this small.

mjyeagle
August 21, 2010, 04:21 PM
i try to keep the uniflow as full as i can for accuracy other than that everybody used up my ideas plus some

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 06:03 PM
As Jim Watson mentioned...+/- .1gr. I can hold that,but at just 3.5 grains .1gr. seems like a lot.

Walkalong
August 21, 2010, 06:27 PM
+/- .1gr. I can hold that,but at just 3.5 grains .1gr. seems like a lot.
Not really a big deal. Many good powders suitable to .38 Spl do +/- .1 Gr.

If you want something that meters almost dead on every time, get some AA #2. It meters superbly, gives great ES & SD numbers, and has proven accurate for loading .38 Spl for many people.

PO2Hammer
August 21, 2010, 06:56 PM
My Redding 10X (pistol and small rifle only) does real well with Titegroup, +/- .1 grain, whether it sits or not, and whether or not I just filled it. (use your baffle) But the 10X has a small diameter chamber. The tiny charges of Titegroup might not do as well in a general purpose, large diameter measure.
.1 grain of Titegroup in .38/.357 is not a big deal. My loads are match accurate to 100 yards in the .357 using thrown charges of Titegroup, tested with a scoped single shot and rest.

bds
August 21, 2010, 09:15 PM
Also, check to make sure your A/C vent or fan is not on because air movement from them will move the sensitive powder scales (I actually reload early in the morning like 5-10 AM so I don't have A/C vent blowing when I am checking my powder charges). How do you check? Put a clear bowl over your scale/charge and see if they deviate - if they don't with the bowl, you found your problem.

I used to reload on my garage reloading bench with the garage doors open for ventilation. Well, I got frustrated because my beam balance scale kept deviating. After much cussing and bad name calling my scale, I called my reloading mentor. He asked if I closed "ALL" the doors to my reloading area and if A/C and fans were all off - I said of course not. He laughed his *** off on my account. I now weigh all of my powder charges indoors.

FYI, if you have digital powder scales, they specify operational temperature ranges - mine says 59F - 95F and another reason why I do all my weighing indoors. Exceed those temperature ranges and you'll be cussing too because the scales will act "funky" :D

I hope this helps ;)

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 09:33 PM
Thanks. I'll give AA #2 a try.
And,yes,I have an air conditioner vent right above the bench. When the air comes on it's break time until it shuts off. Also checked the bench and it's perfectly level front to back.

bds
August 21, 2010, 09:36 PM
Just for the heck of it, try the clear bowl test and see if the reading is consistent - if it is, then you may have "other" atmospheric disturbances :D

If you still have inconsistent readings from same powder charge even though your bench is level and your scale is under the clear bowl, you may need to call the manufacturer and pick their brain.

FWIW, as Walkalong posted, I consider < 0.1 gr variance charge-to-charge good enough for match shooting. 0.2-0.3 gr good enough for plinking/range practice. My Pro Auto Disk meters W231/HP38 with less than 0.1 gr variance.

Ruger GP100 fan
August 21, 2010, 09:53 PM
Well,maybe I'm worrying over nothing at all because the variations I'm experiencing are .1gr or less,but I'll still give AA #2 a try.
Thank you all for your input.

bds
August 21, 2010, 09:55 PM
Ruger GP100 fan, most reloaders will be happy with 0.1 gr variance from powder throws.

I think you are good to go. :D

MEHavey
August 21, 2010, 11:27 PM
the balance beam scale that came with the RCBS reload kit I bought gives me inconsistent charges every time.

Balance Beam scales aren't inconsistant.
They are ground truth.

What are you throwing the charges with (that then get weighed in the scale)?

wrangler5
August 21, 2010, 11:27 PM
I just got through loading 1200 9mm rounds with a Dillon Square Deal B. Titegroup measured so consistently through the Dillon measure that I finally ended up weighing only about one out of every 100 rounds or so. Every one was basically spot on, no more than the width of the indicator line on the end of the beam above or below the reference line.

AA#2 also meters like water. My only objection to it was that it leaked a fair bit with my Lee disk measures. (I haven't tried #2 in the Dillon measure, but Titegroup did NOT leak in the Lee disk measure.)

Ruger GP100 fan
August 22, 2010, 12:22 AM
Started out throwing into holding tray/pan that gets placed in the cradle of the scale,but I'm not always sure that all of the powder stays in it so I decided to throw into a shell case,then dump it into the pan on the scale.

As for powder throw see post #4 this thread.

Ruger GP100 fan
August 22, 2010, 12:26 AM
Several responses mentioned a baffle. What are they?

bds
August 22, 2010, 01:06 AM
Powder baffles apply constant pressure to the rotor for more consistent powder charges (RCBS powder throw and baffle shown)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dUDY-qogL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I use Lee Pro Auto Disk and do not use baffles for small particle powders like W231/HP38/Bullseye/Green Dot, but some use baffles for larger flake powders like Red Dot/Promo/Unique etc.

bds
August 22, 2010, 01:14 AM
Powder baffle thread with link to baffle templates (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=78980&d=1211856964) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=504785

Ruger GP100 fan
August 22, 2010, 02:28 AM
I'll have to check them out. Thanks.

Walkalong
August 22, 2010, 08:50 AM
They work great. I usually put it about 1/3 from the top. It works its way up when I tap on it to get powder out of it. I have to keep an eye on it and move it down to where I like it. You can see from the marks it is up a little.

Redding 10X

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=126336&stc=1&d=1282481375

Ruger GP100 fan
August 24, 2010, 02:00 AM
Walkalong,I took your advice and picked up a jug of #2. I hope by "AA" you meant Accurate powder because that's the only #2 I could find locally. Forgot to pick up a baffle,though,but I'm going to load some 38SP with this stuff,anyway. Maybe yet tonight.

Ruger GP100 fan
August 24, 2010, 09:20 AM
Walkalong,I loaded 50 rounds of 38SP last night using the #2. What a difference! Much better. At first glance at the jug on the store shelf my first thought was that,at about the same price as Titegroup,it's going to cost more to use. A closer look revealed that,even though the container looks to be about half the size of a jug of Titegroup,it does hold a pound. I like it...a lot. Thanks.

Walkalong
August 24, 2010, 01:07 PM
It is a good all around powder. Glad you had good results. :)

I keep this re-labled Hodgdon jar filled from the 4 Lb Jug of AA #2 I bought.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=126469&stc=1&d=1282669957

rfwobbly
August 24, 2010, 01:14 PM
I agree with RC, it's most likely your technique since your equipment is first rate stuff.

Here's another useful tip that helped me...
• First of all, make sure your Uniflow is set up with the small rotary barrel for pistol. There is a large rotary barrel for rifle that will give you terrible results on pistol.

• Use your Uniflow for all your drops. Use the 5-0-5 to precisely adjust the Uniflow. Precise adjustment on a single drop is very hard to achieve, so if you're trying to set up for (say for instance) 3.1gr, then instead, do 10 drops and measure 31.0gr. This will take slightly longer, but your average drop will be much closer to 3.1gr because the group weighing technique takes the small variations into account through averaging.

Hope this helps!

Hondo 60
August 24, 2010, 01:34 PM
Last night I was throwing 3.9 grains of titegroup. I measured every 5 rounds & saw a low of 3.7 & a high of 4.1. (just one of each) the rest were all dead on.

I use this ammo just for ridding the world of those dastardly evil paper targets & plastic bottles. So I'm not looking for perfection.

If you're concerned about .1 or .2, then you probably need to intentionally throw just under your target weight & use a powder trickler to finish the job.

Seedtick
August 24, 2010, 10:14 PM
Here is a thread that helped me a lot.

My new Uni-Flow powder dispenser. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=512247)

ST

:)

Ruger GP100 fan
August 25, 2010, 12:44 AM
Thanks everyone.
Walkalong,yesterday I was told by a gun shop owner that Accurate #2 is not the same as AA #2. Please clear up the confusion,will you? Whether it's the same or not I bought a jug of Accurate #2 and it meters great. I much prefer it over Titegroup.

THe Dove
August 25, 2010, 01:28 PM
Good points Hondo! I agree.

The Dove

wrangler5
August 25, 2010, 02:05 PM
RugerGP100, your gun shop owner needs to find a different line of work if he thinks Accurate #2 is not the same as AA#2. Accurate powders were originally distributed by Accurate Arms Company of McEwen, TN. Originally all of their powders were simply numbered, and they were frequently abbreviated simply "AA" followed by the number. The same as Winchester and Hodgdon numbered powders are usually "W" something and "H" something, respectively.

Accurate powders are now distributed by Western Powders of Miles City, MT. Even though they're no longer an "Accurate Arms" product, the "AA" abbreviation is still commonplace among reloaders.

I don't know where the powders are actually made - I have a jug of #2 that says it's a product of the Czech Republic, and I have a recollection that one of their powders was once made in Israel. My Western Powders jugs don't have any "made in" labels.

Walkalong
August 25, 2010, 02:07 PM
your gun shop owner needs to find a different line of work if he thinks Accurate #2 is not the same as AA#2. Yep. :)

I have a jug of #2 that says it's a product of the Czech Republic, and I have a recollection that one of their powders was once made in Israel.
Me too. I still have a couple one pound jugs that say made in Israel.

it meters greatDon't it though! Almost dead on every throw. It is one of the least position sensitive powders there is. That is good in the .38 case where there is a lot of empty space under the bullet.

giggitygiggity
August 26, 2010, 11:06 PM
Titegroup has metered well for me so far. I use the Lee autodisc system.

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