A Carbine in 9mm or .40? Are they Worth It?


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zebco
August 21, 2010, 03:52 PM
I recently saw a Keltec Sub2000 with the Glock magazine. I haven't seen one around here in a few years and remember that at one time I was thinking of getting one. I just wonder what pistol-caliber carbines are good for. I'm sure plinking, but I tend to be practical with firearms and think that every one should serve a particular purpose or sometimes multiple purposes. So what about these things? Do they enhance the performance of a 9mm or .40? Does anyone actually use them for purposes other than plinking? For instance, I'm sure there are people with ranches/farms that use a particular weapon to keep pests (coyotes,etc) away from their livestock. Would something like the 9mm Sub2K with the 33 round Glock magazine be a viable option? Would appreciate any opinions.

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ThePunisher'sArmory
August 21, 2010, 04:01 PM
I for one have been looking for a Ruger P9 Carbine for a long time. The main reason I want one is that it takes the same mags as my P95s. I have 6 15rnd and 2 32rnd mags for those. I have also heard good reviews on them. I would be buying it more or less for plinking, but thats about it. I got to shoot a Hi Point carbine a while back and it was quite fun around the woods. Drawback would be if I bought one I would need a new and different set of mags for it.

gearjammer-2000
August 21, 2010, 04:13 PM
I have 2 marlin 9 mm camp carbines ones stock and the other is configured as a bullpup, both are great shooting very well made guns.

great pinking guns, as well as a decent varmint shooter.

browningguy
August 21, 2010, 04:17 PM
I've done a bit of night varmint hunting with my Sub2000 in 9mm and it works quite well. The main thing I use mine for is a traveling gun, it fits in a standard briefcase with 4 x 33 round mags and still leaves room for my lunch.

Bovice
August 21, 2010, 04:20 PM
RRA has ARs in 9 and 40. I bet that would be pretty cool. Since you get a much longer barrel than any pistol would have, you get some more velocity. Also the longer sight radius makes your shots much more accurate throughout the usable range of the round.

amprecon
August 21, 2010, 04:38 PM
Every time I consider a pistol caliber carbine I keep coming back to the AK-47 I own, much more powerful with a little more recoil and in a very similarly sized platform with relatively similar ammo prices.

smince
August 21, 2010, 05:44 PM
Every time I consider a pistol caliber carbine I keep coming back to the AK-47 I own, much more powerful with a little more recoil and in a very similarly sized platform with relatively similar ammo prices.That serve different purposes.

Nothing wrong with a pistol-caliber carbine.

wrs840
August 21, 2010, 06:13 PM
My Marlin Camp 9 is just a lot of fun to shoot. I'll buy a 9mm Sub 2000 when I find one that takes S&W 59 series mags, again just for plinking/fun purposes.

My pasture-truck and and tractor-cab rifle, though, is a beat-up pre-safety Marlin 336 in 30-30.

Les

merlinfire
August 21, 2010, 06:47 PM
also consider the whole ammo-commonality between the long gun and a sidearm.

AK103K
August 21, 2010, 07:16 PM
Every time I consider a pistol caliber carbine I keep coming back to the AK-47 I own, much more powerful with a little more recoil and in a very similarly sized platform with relatively similar ammo prices.
I tend to agree here. If it warrants getting a rifle, then get a rifle. Most military and police seem to understand that now too, as you tend to see more rifle caliber guns filling the role the 9mm SMG's did not to long ago.

Now for a plinker, thats a little different story.

FMJMIKE
August 21, 2010, 07:55 PM
My Ruger PC9 in 9mm sits under my bed with a 15 round mag. If something/someone comes in the house they will be met with some 9mm FMJ. I like the 9mm Carbine because it has low muzzle flash and low muzzle blast as compared to other rifles/shotguns. High caliber firearms fired inside the house can be pretty intense to the point of disorienting shooter. Cheap ammo also allows for lots of training.

zebco
August 21, 2010, 08:00 PM
Thanks for the opinions so far. I have mixed feelings right now about getting the Keltec. I'm sure it would be fun, but otherwise not sure of the purpose. I can see the home defense argument, although a high-capacity pistol or a shotgun should be fine. Does the longer barrel length actually add to the performance of the 9mm or .40? Or is it more of the better accuracy?

philpost
August 21, 2010, 08:44 PM
I just tried a Beretta .40 carbine at the range, and I didn't notice significantly less recoil than my AK. I didn't find it's plastic-y raygun looks too appealing. I guess if you only have a 9mm/.40 pistol and you get a similar caliber rifle, it keeps your ammo buying simpler.

TIMC
August 21, 2010, 08:48 PM
I love my Uzi! Fun gun to shoot and very accurate. I also have one of the Sterling 9mm carbines and a High Point 995; they too are very nice.

Mr.Davis
August 21, 2010, 09:00 PM
Does the longer barrel length actually add to the performance of the 9mm or .40? Or is it more of the better accuracy?

Yes, it improves the muzzle velocity significantly. Someone else will have to chime in with specifics, but I seem to remember that a carbine barrel can add 10-20% to the muzzle velocity of a pistol round.

19-3Ben
August 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
THIS WEBSITE (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/) will give you an idea about velocity gains.

If you want some SERIOUS velocity gain, get a .357mag levergun. Takes the .357magnum and gives it rifle like numbers. 158gr. at over 2000fps (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/) sounds more like a rifle round than a handgun.

That being said, I'm sorely tempted by the Beretta CX4 and the Ruger PC4 as bedside guns for my wife and I.

I've never shot one. I've heard they actually give a good thump in the recoil department because of the heavy bolts required for the straight blowback action.
Is this accurate? If recoil is going to be significant anyway, I may just get a 20ga coach gun for the wife.

pezo
August 21, 2010, 09:32 PM
They seem like a good home defense alternative to the brute shotgun or the potentially hard er to steady and aim handgun. They also would not have the over penetrating issues as with a full powered rifle. Good for small stature people defending they,re home in urban-suburban areas.

bigfatdave
August 21, 2010, 09:36 PM
19-3Ben, I would say that my KelTec sub2000 has a bit less recoil than my M1 carbine, with a significantly less ergonomic shoulder stock.

I have mixed feelings right now about getting the Keltec. I'm sure it would be fun, but otherwise not sure of the purpose. I can see the home defense argument, although a high-capacity pistol or a shotgun should be fine.Oh, it is fun!
The positive things:
You have something to share mags or at least ammo with your pistols
It is very reliable due to the straight blowback action and long time the bolt spends behind the magazine (and Glock mags are pretty reliable in the first time) ... no "bolt cycled but no round got picked up" malfunctions
It is cheap, in fact it is cheaper than many pistols
It is easy to train with (easy on the wallet and you can use it at an indoor range)
It folds! (holy crap, it folds!) ... mine fits into a double pistol case with mags and 100-150 rounds of ammo, depending on packaging and what else I shove in there.
It pushes a 1142FPS round (in a carry-size pistol) up to 1391FPS (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html) (that's short barrel 124 grain Gold Dots out of a 3" para mini-1911 type gun vs the sub2000)

The negative things:
Pistol rounds just aren't rifle rounds, although the extra barrel does add velocity (and a longer barrel seems to rob velocity with some loads, apparently KT knows how to use a chronometer ... check out the 18" barrel on the website above)
The KT sub2000 is primarily designed to be a stowable rifle that takes common pistol mags, ergonomics aren't the greatest (surprisingly the hi-point carbine's ergonomics are almost as good as the things are ugly)
It requires an odd reach to cycle the bolt manually
It makes ammo go away FAST. A common 17x mag and a 33x mag are a whole box of ammo. Add in the cost of a destroyed target and operating costs continue to be cheap compared to a rifle, but they can add up

General Geoff
August 21, 2010, 09:37 PM
I like my Sub2000 because it fits in a laptop bag. :)

Jeremy2171
August 21, 2010, 09:45 PM
I like my Oly K9-GL...

http://a.imageshack.us/img10/8973/stuff031.jpg

Goes great with my G22/17 and G23/19 combo....uses the same mags...

A little heavy but with the Eotech I can hit an 8" plate at 100yds all day long.

76shuvlinoff
August 21, 2010, 10:18 PM
get a .357mag levergun. Takes the .357magnum and gives it rifle like numbers. 158gr. at over 2000fps sounds more like a rifle round than a handgun.


..and paired up with an Blackhawk in 357 it makes you feel like a 10 yr old cowboy every time you pick it up... trust me.

:D

AK103K
August 21, 2010, 10:18 PM
If you want them for something serious, and want serious performance from them, then you want a full auto gun. At least in that respect, up close, it will work like a shotgun, but just be easier to handle and shoot, and still give you better options without having to change ammo, if ranges open up.

This is all assuming youre dealing with unarmored targets too. If so, then regardless what you have, pistol caliber/shotgun wise, youre still going to want that rifle.

briansmithwins
August 21, 2010, 11:02 PM
I like my Uzi very much. It's a great training tool for ranges where rifle ammo isn't permitted or for cheaper practice.

It's still a pistol caliber round. Even out of a 16" barrel terminal performance is still going to be pistol class- underpowered. Pistol rounds break bones, rifles shatter them.

My Uzi is the last long arm I would grab if I needed a gun. OTOH, given a choice, I'd grab the Uzi before a pistol anytime. The stock and extra sight radius make hits out to 200 yards possible, if not easy. BSW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/bsw_with_uzi_18jun10_2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_5951Medium.jpg

Deltaboy
August 22, 2010, 12:02 AM
I want one and a 30/30!

murdoc rose
August 22, 2010, 12:11 AM
imo there of little to no use but that doesn't mean there not fun

smince
August 22, 2010, 09:18 AM
I have used a PCC (pistol-caliber carbine) for HD for years. I realize the limits of the weapon and live with it. Fire a rifle in your bedroom and see how that sounds (yeah, I know-we always have time to grab our electronic hearing protection :rolleyes:).
If you want them for something serious, and want serious performance from them, then you want a full auto gun.Most of the sub-gun courses I've heard and read about use semi in 95% of the class. F/A is fun and has it's (limited) uses.

bikerdoc
August 22, 2010, 09:38 AM
my kind of thread. I like pistol caliber carbines

I own a

9mm Ruger PC 9

Hi-point 995

Marlin 357 lever gun

Good for HD sure but so is my Mossberg 20''.

Remember it is not the tool it is the mechanic.

Centaur 1
August 22, 2010, 09:54 AM
My son was thinking about buying the cx storm, but he decided to buy a 9mm upper for his AR-15. The gun is fun to shoot and since it's a pistol caliber we can shoot it at our local indoor range. I cast my own bullets, so I can reload the 9mm for under $50 per thousand rounds. I doubt that it would ever happen, but in a doomsday scenario it makes sense to have a high capacity rifle that shoots the same caliber ammo as my pistol.

AK103K
August 22, 2010, 10:34 AM
Fire a rifle in your bedroom and see how that sounds (yeah, I know-we always have time to grab our electronic hearing protection ).
Fire ANYTHING in your bedroom, or any room in your house for that matter, and its not going to matter after the first shot. I know it wont for me, the crickets in my head are screaming right now, and its quiet. One .22LR fired from my Mosquito, while shooting a critter in my carport, and I had trouble hearing people talking to me for a couple of days, and that was basically outdoors.

Most of the sub-gun courses I've heard and read about use semi in 95% of the class. F/A is fun and has it's (limited) uses.
Yes, there are usually specific uses and places for it, and at the the ranges most home defense scenarios occur, it would be one of them, or at least I'd use mine in that capacity. If you can shoot the target onces with a pistol caliber gun, you can shoot it two or three times with the same pull of the trigger with the SMG. Which do you think will be more effective?

Still, even though I have the choice, I'd still prefer one of my red dotted AK's over anything else. Basically the same size gun as the others, and I prefer to be able to shoot through things if I choose to do so.

briansmithwins
August 22, 2010, 11:10 AM
you can shoot it two or three times with the same pull of the trigger with the SMG.

The problem is that the shooting 'victim' (you know, the guy that broke into your house) is going to have a team of lawyers analyzing the effects of every bullet you fired, SA or FA. When their expert witness testifies that the 1st round that hit the 'victim' was incapacitating (but probably non-lethal) and that round 2-4 killed him, you might be in for a prosecution that you could have avoided.

Outside of a TEOTWAWKI situation, you're going to be judged on EVERY round you send downrange.

BSW

AK103K
August 22, 2010, 12:07 PM
You can argue the "every round downrange" thing no matter what the weapon. One pull of the trigger on a shotgun usually sends more than one pull on the SMG. The results are usually the same or similar though.

If you have just cause to defend yourself, and its declared a justifiable shooting afterward, the weapon you use, no matter what it is, may or may not cause you grief in a civil suit, if it ever gets to that, who knows. You can worry yourself to death over what "might could happen". Hopefully, you dont just worry yourself into being dead, because you hesitated over whether or not to pull the trigger, becasue the weapon at hand at the moment things happened, isnt an approved or preferred weapon on the bad guy shooting list.

If youre worried about the type of weapon you use, and what "might" occur afterward because of it, then maybe you shouldnt use any, and just accept the fact you need to be a victim. If you survive, and your lucky enough that your assailant should be caught, you can have your lawyer go on the offensive and go after them for the same thing you'd have us worry about.

EAJ
August 22, 2010, 01:48 PM
Fun, inexpensive to shoot, and as a bonus, legal on most indoor pistol ranges. :)

Beretta CX 4 Storm 9mm Carbine

http://www.fishkind.com/collection/images/cx4_26.jpg

Bushmaster Carbon 15 9mm Carbine

http://www.fishkind.com/collection/images/bush_08.jpg

esheato
August 22, 2010, 02:00 PM
Worth it? Yes, although mine is usually a 75 yard and under plinking gun.

Unbelievably fun, cheap and as simple as an AR to accessorize. 32 round magazines sure help ya burn through the ammo though.

Prolly the best 2k I've spent yet. LOL

RRA LAR-9, Larue UDE furniture and rail, EOtech.
http://esheato.smugmug.com/photos/970847237_TWZ8Z-XL.jpg

Aaron2091
August 22, 2010, 03:12 PM
Ranch gun...? 9mm will just piss off a hog...will kill a coyote though. Pistol calibers in general are normally only good to 100 yds.

6.5 Grendel or .260 Rem would work as a ranch rifle and kill just about anything you would run into.
.223/5.56 would work for plinking and is relatively cheap but dont try to kill hogs with it. Even the 69 gr stuff doesnt work very well.
I know some proud American gun enthusiasts aren't gonna like this but an 7.62 x 39 would work well as a ranch rifle and is good for 200+ yds or so.

LoonWulf
August 22, 2010, 03:40 PM
Ive been looking at a keltech or Hi-point for a while. .30 carbs are popular here as pig guns, but they are both pricy and ive already got .9mm rounds. Id really like to get an older ruger .44, that would be a nice gun for what id like to do with it.

PT1911
August 22, 2010, 04:07 PM
I have a puma 92 in 45 colt... I LIKE IT!!!!

I also want the Ruger 44 carbine... (tube fed older model NOT the newer detachable mag.)

nwilliams
August 22, 2010, 07:28 PM
9mm carbines are loads of fun!

I have an IMI Uzi and MKE AT-94 that I wouldn't consider parting with! Eventually I'd love to turn them both into SBR's but I haven't gotten around to going through the process yet.

MKE.....
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/MKE-9-big.jpg

IMI Uzi with dummy barrel installed.....
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/UziModelB4-big.jpg

zebco
August 23, 2010, 03:41 AM
Thanks to everyone for their input. I appreciate the responses. Still undecided though.

NWCP
August 23, 2010, 05:29 AM
I have an HK USC in .45ACP. Within the confines of a house out to 75 yards it would be an effective weapon. Given my druthers I'd grab the shotgun for home use, but the carbine has its place.

cleardiddion
August 23, 2010, 05:33 AM
I had a Hi-point 995 a few years back.
Basically it played numerous roles that I've relegated to other guns now.
Plinking, varminting, HD/SD were a few of the roles that it played.

The nice thing I've found out about the pistol caliber carbines/uppers is that they are in many cases cheaper than many other arms used for the same purpose.
As many others have pointed out, the ammo cost (especially if you shoot a lot) can be significant. Cheaper ammo = more shooting = more fun/practice.
Less muzzle flash and recoil helped in learning to shoot and helped many another person at the range.
It was easy for me to store in my car with a few mags just in case the world went pear shaped.

Overall, they're economical and relatively efficient arms that'll do most tasks that you ask of them as long as you're aware of their limitations.

zhyla
August 23, 2010, 12:23 PM
I dunno, I think they have an advantage over handguns (easier to operate/aim under stress, especially for the untrained). I'd rather have an AK than a 9mm or .45 carbine, though the AK is going to weigh a bit more.

What is HK pushing these days? The USC? They're kind of the king of pistol caliber carbines.

UnTainted
August 23, 2010, 12:38 PM
The problem is that the shooting 'victim' (you know, the guy that broke into your house) is going to have a team of lawyers analyzing the effects of every bullet you fired, SA or FA. When their expert witness testifies that the 1st round that hit the 'victim' was incapacitating (but probably non-lethal) and that round 2-4 killed him, you might be in for a prosecution that you could have avoided.

Outside of a TEOTWAWKI situation, you're going to be judged on EVERY round you send downrange.

BSW
I love your choice of words: might be in for a prosecution.

Oh boy, I'm scared now because some lawyer somewhere is going to determine that the first shot incapacitated him anatomically. That's not what matters. What matters is what the shooter (home defender) percieved, and whether his response for each moment of perception was reasonable, i.e., being what a reasonable person would do in the scenario.

Now, if I shoot a person that has broken into my house, say, in keeping with the thread, with a 124g 9mm +p in a carbine, and the round impacts him in the chest, and he stumbles back into the wall, the lawyer at this point may anatomically be able to prove that this hit was "sufficient to incapacitate." Well, sufficient, huh? That's about all he'll be able to prove. Cause when the guy looks back up at me, leaning on the wall, and strains to lift his arm holding a weapon, shots two, three, and four will already have been fired, and five, six, and seven will be heading his way.

Until he is on the ground not moving.

Yes, that is reasonably what LETHAL FORCE affords. When you use lethal force, you can expect lethality, you can even attempt to achieve it. Shoot to kill isn't against the law, because you're using lethal force. It's the nature of the affirmative defense known as self defense.

If he's on the ground, unconscious and not moving, and then you put one in the noggin, that's not reasonable, now, is it? Nope.

On the ground motionless is where I'd draw the line to stop firing, maybe. It'll depend on my perception. If I think he's faking it (and another person would do so in my shoes), and it may be possible, a noggin shot is reasonable.

To sum up, if you have the right to use lethal force, use it. Let's get away from the "shoot-to-wound" or "shoot once, look and see" theories. They just put your life at risk unnecessarily. The last thing you should be worried about when shooting justifiably is this wives' tale about what a lawyer will do cause you killed the person instead of maiming them.

General Geoff
August 23, 2010, 01:15 PM
Yes, that is reasonably what LETHAL FORCE affords. When you use lethal force, you can expect lethality, you can even attempt to achieve it. Shoot to kill isn't against the law, because you're using lethal force.

This is bad advice. Never, ever shoot to kill; it will get you convicted for first or second degree murder, regardless of circumstances.

The reason behind using lethal force for self defense is to neutralize an attacker. Lethal force just happens to more reliably stop threats than many other, non-lethal types of force. Death caused by said lethal force is merely a potential side effect of its use in a self defense situation. The point (and the reason you fired) is that you stopped your attacker; no more, no less. Intent is everything.

nelsonal
August 24, 2010, 12:35 PM
Thanks for the opinions so far. I have mixed feelings right now about getting the Keltec. I'm sure it would be fun, but otherwise not sure of the purpose. I can see the home defense argument, although a high-capacity pistol or a shotgun should be fine. Does the longer barrel length actually add to the performance of the 9mm or .40? Or is it more of the better accuracy?
Ballistics by the inch puts it at under 200 fps from a full fram 5-6" barrel in 9mm and 150 or so for the .40 s&w.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.htmlhttp://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html
Real world guns are below the by the inch tables.

briansmithwins
August 24, 2010, 03:00 PM
Let's get away from the "shoot-to-wound" or "shoot once, look and see" theories. They just put your life at risk unnecessarily.

Agree 100%. I was never advocating shoot to wound or fire one, look. But, you do have to be aware of what the bad guy is doing too. If he's like one guy I saw shot, he took a (superficial) hit from a .25ACP and decided to lay down. Was he seriously injured? No. Was his assaultive behavior stopped? Yes. The shooter lost the justification for using deadly force to defend himself when his attacker dropped.

If somebody drops from your 1st hit and they aren't providing an immediate threat to life or of serious bodily injury anymore you can't shoot them. The scope for deadly force doesn’t increase just because you've shot someone.

To try to get back to the OP's original question: I'd (almost) always prefer a intermediate rifle cartridge (5.56 NATO or 7.62x39) to any pistol cal carbine. The wounding effects of good ammo in either rifle cartridge are just tremendously better than .45ACP, 40S&W, or 9mmP. BSW

Kwanger
August 24, 2010, 10:43 PM
I love my Sub2k - its a great little shooter, 'milk jug accurate' at 100 yards and folds in half to fit in a small daysack. If you have a pistol in one of the magazine configurations it takes, huge bonus. A 9mm carbine will never be anywhere near as good as a proper rifle, but that's not the aim. If you went to a pistol fight with one, on the other hand, you'd clean house. They definatley have their place....personally I think the sub2k more than the other options due to the compactness and mag interchangability.
,

blitzen
August 25, 2010, 02:06 AM
UnTainted, I like your thinkin!

DNS
August 25, 2010, 02:24 AM
I've got a 9mm Kel Tec and its a fun little toy. I wouldn't consider it a real hunting rifle but wild dogs, coyote, nutria, etc, don't stand a chance. I use it as an alternative to carrying a 22 mag riflle.

Mike

stiletto raggio
August 25, 2010, 01:14 PM
I own a KT Sub 2000 and CX4s in both 9mm and .40. The KT is the lightest, and when stowed, the most compact. Compactness is the only reason I still have it. It is rather uncomfortable to fire and it chews up the brass bad enough that it cannot be reloaded (this is why they specifically state that aluminum cases should never be used). It is the least effective centerfire "long gun" that I own, but I would rather use it at 50 yards than a pistol.

The CX4s have good sights, decent triggers, excellent ergonomics, light recoil and an abundance of high-quality accessories. 17 round PX4 .40 mags and Mec-Gar 20 round 92 mags are my mags of choice because they are high capacity and protrude just enough to make reloading easy. These are also my mags of choice for the accompanying pistols, so it makes the logistics easy. The .40 being a high-pressure round and having a larger bore than the 9mm, I think it sees a significant gain in velocity. The .40 is definitely my favorite pistol-caliber carbine, and I think it packs enough punch for most defensive scenarios.

Pigs? I prefer a .45/70.

blutarsky
August 25, 2010, 01:47 PM
Do they enhance the performance of a 9mm or .40?

following is some info taken right out of the sub 2000 manual:

BALLISTICS

Your SUB rifle has been test fired and sighted in at 100 yards before leaving the factory. However, due to different ammunitions, positions, shooters etc. your rifle should be zeroed to your personal preference. As seen from the graph on page 16 the bullet first crosses the line of sight at about 20 yards. This is normally sufficient, but if 100 yards are available the results should be verified at the actual range. Within this range the trajectory is flat, deviating less than two inches from the line of sight. At close range and high power ammunition the SUB rifle has the energy of a .357 Magnum.

The maximum range of a pistol bullet is about one mile. At 200 yards the projectile still has more energy than a .380 ACP fired at point blank range. However, at this distance the mid range trajectory is about 18" and the wind deflection is considerable when compared to a full power rifle.

It should be noted that ballistic precision of the pistol cartridge has a wide variation. During extensive tests of commercial ammunition in a Mann barrel, the best 10 shot groups were about 2.5 m.o.a., the worst up to 10. Premium US manufacture hollowpoints of medium bullet weight performed best. Worst were US generic FMJ and non-european imports.

there's also a graph (which is a little confusing) showing ballistics with various ammo as well as comparison points (in green) for what typical handgun rounds are at point blank range.

blutarsky
August 25, 2010, 02:18 PM
incidentally -- i forgot to add that i have a sub2k in 9mm and i think it's great. i have one that accepts the glock-type mags (the most common variant), however i do not own a glock pistol. the mags are readily available and relatively cheap so although i don't get to enjoy mag compatibility with my pistol, it's still worthwhile in my book.

clearly the thing that sets the sub2k apart from the rest of your choices is its compactness and ability to fold. i ordered mine without ever actually holding one (they're basically impossible to find in shops around me), so when i picked it up at my ffl it was my first time to see it in person and actually hold it. i knew it was small and compact, but when they took it out of the box it still surprised me. it's light and tiny, but still manages to feel quite solid and sturdy.

these benefits don't come without a price, as you do have to trade off some comfort. it's a bit uncomfortable to get a good cheek weld and the bolt does come back with a bit of a whack that takes a bit to get used to -- it's not at all painful or 'bad', just different. it's also little awkward to work the bolt if you need to cycle it or lock it back. your first few rounds will no doubt feel weird as you find what position to hold and shoot, but after a mag or two you figure it out and get used to it. it does tend to maul the brass so if you're a reloader that might put you off.

when you have some 33rd mags loaded up the main downside is you'll be having so much fun that you'll go through a ton of ammo before you know it. not that that's a bad thing. also, if you go to a busy range, you'd be surprised how many people know about the sub2k and are interested, but never seen one since they're so rare in the stores -- you'll get comments and inquiries, which will no doubt lead to people wanting to shoot it, and them offering you to shoot what they've got. it's a good conversation starter as well as being just a ton of fun.

anyway, as you can tell i love mine -- it's great quality and for the price is an excellent value. if you've got the money, just get one, you won't be disappointed.

OpelBlitz
August 26, 2010, 01:00 PM
They seem like a good home defense alternative to the brute shotgun or the potentially hard er to steady and aim handgun. They also would not have the over penetrating issues as with a full powered rifle. Good for small stature people defending they,re home in urban-suburban areas.

It's been well established here and on other firearms-related forums that anything that can kill a man will have to deal with overpenetration issues.

Regarding carbines in 9mm/.40 - I don't feel they're overly useful. Now the .357 Magnum in a carbine, now that gives some serious performance gains. But if it works for you, then great; I am kind of with everyone else regarding using a rifle caliber for carbines.

Jason_W
August 26, 2010, 01:45 PM
I'm a pistol cal carbine fan, though most of my experience with them is through lever action models.

I always looked at it from a hand loader's perspective. I can make .357 mag rounds for a lot cheaper than most rifle rounds.

As far as the semi-auto models go, I handled a ruger PC carbine in .40 s&w a while back, and it seemed pretty nifty. Light, short, could easily be fired one handed if need be. While it may not be any better than a shotgun or AR-15, I doubt it's any worse. I'm not sure it matters much what a person uses at inside the house distances (excepting rimfires, maybe). Generally speaking, longguns are easier to master than handguns, so that gives a pistol carbine one advantage over a handgun.

I hope Marlin soon chambers an 1894 in the .327 Fed. Coupled with the Ruger, 7 shot GP-100, most home defense needs would be taken care of.

giggitygiggity
August 26, 2010, 11:27 PM
I'm just looking forward to the MSAR Carbine that is supposed to come out shortly!

MrPeter
August 27, 2010, 03:55 PM
I've always said that if I could find a used Sub-2000 in .40 for a good price ($200 or less), I'd pick one up. That said, I freely admit there is really no practical use for it in my arsenal. Every one of my needs is pretty much met already.

MetalHead
September 12, 2010, 06:20 PM
I got to witness and shoot a brand new Sub2000 40S&W Glock mag version, 50 rounds of Win Ranger TC-FMJ. The 4th round caught on the barrel face and had to be re-fed, otherwise it functioned perfect. Recoil was not heavy but what there is hits with a sharp rap and as others have said the buttstock is not well shaped. Brass looks fine and the Ranger stuff burns real clean. The proud new owner is planning a change to the buttstock and dreaming about mounting a laser sight in the forearm.
Neat gun.

bigfatdave
September 12, 2010, 06:49 PM
buttstock is not well shaped
That buttstock is shaped perfectly!
... For folding

Chances are that after some real shooting (as in a couple hundred rounds) you won't see any more teething issues.
Mine happily eats Wolf, Brown Bear, WWB, or Federal cheapo stuff, as well as Gold Dots and whatever other old HP rounds were rattling around after being chambered too many times for my comfort. I wouldn't feed it anything special for target ammo, it eats the cheap stuff like candy.

junyo
September 12, 2010, 07:40 PM
This question comes up every 2 1/2 minutes. People tend to concentrate on the lack of firepower of a PCC, and downplay the advantages, which can be substantial.

A PCC:

Is much more concealable than most full on rifles
A little added power to the round.
Has a longer sight radius and/or allows you to use a scope
Magazine compatibility with your sidearm
Ammo compatibility with your sidearm


Item one tends to only apply to the Sub2k, but to me is a compelling argument; a PCC that can be stowed in a laptop or messenger bag and thus carried on your person beats an AR in the trunk of your car. Item two is to me the least compelling, because, at the end of the day, it's still a pistol round. But that's somewhat mitigated by 3; people tend to be more accurate, more easily, with a carbine than a pistol, which means shot placement is easier, allowing you (or an occassional shooter that you may want/need to arm) to get the most out of the round. And that feeds into 4 and 5, which are huge; if I've got a pistol and and AR and a couple of mags for both, and either weapon ends up out of the fight, the ammo for that gun is a nice paperweight. I've got a pistol and a Sub2k, I've got two weapons that will take all the ammunition and magazines on me. Ammo/mag compatibility is a huge advantage, because that gives you extra redundancy at your critical points. Yes, it's redundancy at the cost of power, but since a pistol caliber will handle the vast majority of SD situations if I do my bit, I don't think not having ultimate penetrating power will be an issue all that often. I think it's a reasonable kit if you have to travel super light, and/or be on foot someplace where an openly displayed gun would be an issue.

Although, as soon as someone invents a concealable .308 pistol that takes FAL mags, I'm all over that. :D

boricua9mm
September 12, 2010, 08:40 PM
I'm a fan of PCCs. Even in SBR format, you get the increased stability that a rifle affords you, plus an increase in FPS and round count over a pistol. As mentioned, these carbines are usually lighter in weight, yet the recoil much less than a similar sized .223/5.56mm carbine. They are much cheaper to practice with, easier to train non-enthusiasts with, and when stocked with "go time" ammo, they are a formidable force.

I'm glad to have one in the stable.

http://www.ricanhavocproductions.com/images/bw5_09.jpg

AK103K
September 12, 2010, 09:14 PM
Me too. I have the pocket version. :)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27fbd9c595800000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

boricua9mm
September 12, 2010, 09:18 PM
Classic! :D

essayons21
September 12, 2010, 09:30 PM
I've been lusting hard after a .40cal AR-pattern carbine to be SBR'd in the future.

Accurate, cheap ammo, I can use it on my local "run-and-gun" pistol range, ammo and magazine commonality, whats not to like?

S. Hill
September 12, 2010, 11:41 PM
Here is one I ran across. It looks like it is based around the AR concept, but simplified. It is from a fairly new company, maybe 2 years old.

Retail price for their entry level rifle is under $660.00.

evan price
September 12, 2010, 11:58 PM
Glock-mag Sub2000 9mm- with folding scope mount no less. It's wicked fun at the range, and where else can you get a scoped rifle with 33 round mags that fits in a gym bag?

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