Firearm buying advice for a Permanent Resident (green card)


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Wonderclam
August 21, 2010, 07:20 PM
My neighbor gave me a Ruger Single Sixty New Model .22/magnum. It's my very first firearm and I'm 30 years old. We went to the Police substation and had it registered, they gave me my blue card.

It's a good gun, but I thought I'd get a higher caliber one for home defense. I've been hearing good things about the SR9. I went to a gun store close and was going to buy it, but since I'm not a citizen and I live with my mom (everything's under her name) they said I needed to have a written statement from my mom saying I live in her house and she allows me to buy a gun. Also, they need 3 months worth of bills (electric, gas, etc..) with my name and the address I wrote down.

Is this just a store policy or is this a state/city law? I thought since I have my blue card that I can just buy a gun from a gun store without any hassle?

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everallm
August 21, 2010, 08:15 PM
As a Permanent Resident Alien you have the same 2A rights as a citizen EXCEPT a NICS check requires 90 days proof of continuous current residence.

This can be satisfied via the list below assuming it is your name

Utility Bills
Bank Statement
Rent receipt
Mortgage statement
Property tax bill
Documents from Federal, State or local government agencies
Insurance policy, bill or credit card statement with current address

You will additionally have to take your Green Card (not Blue Card) with you at the time of purchase. Officially you just need to provide your Alien Number but it's not worth the grief.

Assuming you are 21 or higher you can purchase a pistol without further restriction from an FFL

Assuming you are 18-21 you CANNOT buy a pistol from an FFL although you can buy privately at this age range

Mothers statement requirement is BS assuming you are 18+

Wonderclam
August 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
Ok, I see. I thought it was just store policy. I assumed that once you already have your first gun and a blue card, you did not have to deal with any of that anymore.

RevolvingGarbage
August 22, 2010, 02:53 AM
You have to register your guns in Vegas? Lame.

natman
August 22, 2010, 04:14 AM
It's Federal law, not just store policy. You should get something put in your name to establish residency.

Note that on top of Federal law, states can impose additional requirements. California, for instance, will not accept bank statements or pay stubs as residency.

docnyt
August 22, 2010, 04:50 AM
+1 with everalim. It can be a painful process if your FFL dealer does not know what he's doing. The NICS process is hit or miss. More often than not there is a delay. The fastest I've had is 2 hours while I was browsing through the store.

dec41971
August 22, 2010, 05:02 AM
As a Permanent Resident Alien you have the same 2A rights as a citizen EXCEPT a NICS check requires 90 days proof of continuous current residence.

This can be satisfied via the list below assuming it is your name

Utility Bills
Bank Statement
Rent receipt
Mortgage statement
Property tax bill
Documents from Federal, State or local government agencies
Insurance policy, bill or credit card statement with current address

You will additionally have to take your Green Card (not Blue Card) with you at the time of purchase. Officially you just need to provide your Alien Number but it's not worth the grief.

Assuming you are 21 or higher you can purchase a pistol without further restriction from an FFL

Assuming you are 18-21 you CANNOT buy a pistol from an FFL although you can buy privately at this age range

Mothers statement requirement is BS assuming you are 18+
You are pertinently wrong. Mother's statement is required by federal law too. He is not the person whom the address is legally under, the owner of the address regardless of if its his mother friend or even spouse needs to submit a statement. That also doesn't mean there are no instances where the law is ignored. Its just like getting a driver's license, same exact thing is required. Since 9/11, the rules were tightened by the patriot act, and real ID law. Sanctuary cities and states however are notorious for ignoring these to allow loop holes for Driver's license seekers who may not have all the requirements. Oh and regardless of how many times you have bought fire arms and regardless of having CHP, CCW blue cards, green cards etc, FFL MUST certify the residency requirements with each purchase.

Wonderclam
August 22, 2010, 08:13 AM
I guess the only way I can bypass all this hassle is by buying guns from a private owner. My brother in law offered to go to the store and buy the SR9 for me, then I just pay him back. Everything's too much of a hassle. I guess I'll just stick with my .22.

docnyt
August 22, 2010, 08:21 AM
dec41971: I haven't come across this requirement of a letter of certification from the owner. I guess that does come into play if the potential gun buyer doesn't have any bill or credit card in his name

OP: Be careful not to tread on dangerous ground here. If somebody buys a gun with the intention of turning it over quickly, it may constitute a straw sale. Make sure you document on a bill of sale that you purchased the gun from your brother in law.

everallm
August 22, 2010, 08:33 AM
Dec41971, you're completely wrong, go to the ATF website have a look at the extensive documentation.

As an example, link to a PDF of the 4473, no statement akin to yours at all.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

Based on your opinion anyone who rented who be in the same situation, as would a soldier living on base who has permission to have personal firearms from the CO.

Also this is NOT a politics site, take the "sanctuary city" comments elsewhere

Wonderclam
August 22, 2010, 10:07 AM
OP: Be careful not to tread on dangerous ground here. If somebody buys a gun with the intention of turning it over quickly, it may constitute a straw sale. Make sure you document on a bill of sale that you purchased the gun from your brother in law.

Can you comment more on this, docnyt? What exactly is a straw sale? Is that illegal?

One more question. How about buying ammunition? I have a .22 Ruger, but I have no ammo for it. Do I have to do the same thing as buying a gun? Do I need to bring bill statements, letter from house owner, etc?

docnyt
August 22, 2010, 10:37 AM
I guess Wikipedia is as good a source as any:

"In the context of United States federal gun laws, a straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not. In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor. One of the questions on form 4473 is “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no, by checking the appropriate box in ink. However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted.[1]

Many gun shops have jointly participated in programs (such as: “Don’t Lie For The Other Guy”) to deter such purchases.[2]"

As far as ammo, you just have to be of legal age to buy. No FFL required. You may (and should) be asked for your drivers license, although I haven't seen this consistently done at Wally World.

TexasRifleman
August 22, 2010, 11:56 AM
Can you comment more on this, docnyt? What exactly is a straw sale? Is that illegal?

This action from your previous post would be a felony for both people involved:

My brother in law offered to go to the store and buy the SR9 for me, then I just pay him back.

TH3180
August 22, 2010, 12:55 PM
As far as ammo, you just have to be of legal age to buy. No FFL required. You may (and should) be asked for your drivers license, although I haven't seen this consistently done at Wally World.
Why should they ask you for your drivers license?

TexasRifleman
August 22, 2010, 01:08 PM
Why should they ask you for your drivers license?

Well, you have to be 21 to buy handgun ammo so they should be asking. It's a stupid law (like most gun laws) but it's still the law. They have to cover themselves to protect their business and follow the law.

snubbies
August 22, 2010, 01:46 PM
If you have to be 21 to own a handgun why is it stupid to require you to be 21 to buy ammo for that gun?? Are you questioning the 21 years of age to buy a handgun??? I would support the 21 years of age requirement with the exception of military personnel.

Top_Gunn
August 22, 2010, 02:09 PM
If you have to be 21 to own a handgun why is it stupid to require you to be 21 to buy ammo for that gun?
Federal law does not require that one be 21 to own a handgun, though it doesn't allow those under 21 to buy a handgun from an FFL. Odd combination. State laws vary.

Laws distinguishing handgun ammo from other kinds are kind of silly. Is .38 special "handgun ammo"? Sure, but it's also what I shoot in my Marlin 1894c. Is .30-30 "handgun ammo"? Of course not, but I read something once about somebody who did make a handgun that shot this cartridge (which was relevant under the proposed but not enacted Federal legislation on "armor-piercing bullets," which would have outlawed just about all centerfire cartridges).

rromeo
August 22, 2010, 02:58 PM
Should 22LR be considered as rifle ammo, or handgun ammo? It says rifle right in the name, but many handguns use it.

We went to the Police substation and had it registered, they gave me my blue card.

You have to register your guns in Vegas? Lame.
I didn't know this. City ordinance?

TexasRifleman
August 22, 2010, 03:24 PM
If you have to be 21 to own a handgun why is it stupid to require you to be 21 to buy ammo for that gun?? Are you questioning the 21 years of age to buy a handgun??? I would support the 21 years of age requirement with the exception of military personnel.

Might want to read up on the law before quoting it. From a Federal standpoint there is NO LAW requiring you to be 21 to own or buy a handgun. ONLY that you can't buy one from a dealer.

So, if there's no law saying you can't own one why do you have to be 21 to buy ammo for one?

Again, stupid gun laws.

So you support a requirement that doesn't even exist?

Wonderclam
August 22, 2010, 06:05 PM
Ugh, so I guess I gotta wait til I see someone selling an SR9 on the classifieds in order to get one.

docnyt
August 22, 2010, 06:09 PM
No not necessarily. If your brother in law buys it, he can either give it to you as a gift or sell it to you but (and this is probably not covered by any law) I would wait a few days before doing either, and document on paper with a clear understanding that it is being transferred to you.

rromeo
August 22, 2010, 06:15 PM
And don't brag about it on the internet.

TexasRifleman
August 22, 2010, 08:44 PM
. If your brother in law buys it, he can either give it to you as a gift or sell it to you but (and this is probably not covered by any law) I would wait a few days before doing either

That's still a straw purchase, no matter how long he waits to do the transfer. If the intent at the time of purchase was to get around the law it's a straw purchase always whether it's 5 minutes later or 5 months.

Wonderclam
August 22, 2010, 09:18 PM
Ok, I'll just keep an eye out for an SR9 on the classifieds then.

TH3180
August 22, 2010, 09:41 PM
Why don't you just do what the gun store asks and get your new gun? Why try and find a way around the laws?

duns
August 22, 2010, 09:45 PM
I'm a Permanent Resident too. When I first bought guns, I had to provide photo ID, fill out the 4473 form, pass the NICS background check, and provide proof of 90 days' residency in my state. Now I have my CHL, the background check is not needed but the other requirements apply.

To prove the 90 days' residency, I just produce my last 3 or 4 months of electricity bills, with the bills made out to my name and address. Bank statements or pretty much any other official document would serve the same purpose so long as they show you have been at that address for the last 90 days or more.

For the exact requirements see the instructions to form 4473 Question 20.c.

Don't even think about trying to find a way round the rules (unlike citizens, green card holders can be deported!).

Wonderclam
August 22, 2010, 09:57 PM
Why don't you just do what the gun store asks and get your new gun? Why try and find a way around the laws?

I have no way of getting the 3 months worth of bills under my name sent to my address. Everything is under my mom's name. I only have a cell phone bill, which is something they cannot use. The written statement that my mom has to fill is easy to get.

I'm a Permanent Resident too. When I first bought guns, I had to provide photo ID, fill out the 4473 form, pass the NICS background check, and provide proof of 90 days' residency in my state. Now I have my CHL, the background check is not needed but the other requirements apply.

To prove the 90 days' residency, I just produce my last 3 or 4 months of electricity bills, with the bills made out to my name and address. Bank statements or pretty much any other official document would serve the same purpose so long as they show you have been at that address for the last 90 days or more.

For the exact requirements see the instructions to form 4473 Question 20.c.

Don't even think about trying to find a way round the rules (unlike citizens, green card holders can be deported!).

Yeah, but there's no rule against buying from a private seller because you can't get one from a gun store, is there? I'm not too familiar with this and google search doesn't help, I can't seem to get the wording right to get an answer for my query.

Top_Gunn
August 22, 2010, 10:07 PM
Yeah, but there's no rule against buying from a private seller because you can't get one from a gun store, is there? I'm not too familiar with this and google search doesn't help, I can't seem to get the wording right to get an answer for my query.
That's right: buying from a private seller, so long as you're both residents of the state and it's legal for you to own the gun, is fine.

duns
August 22, 2010, 10:07 PM
I have no way of getting the 3 months worth of bills under my name sent to my address. Everything is under my mom's name. I only have a cell phone bill, which is something they cannot use. The written statement that my mom has to fill is easy to get.
I don't actually see anything in the instructions to Question 20.c. that says a letter from your mom would prove your residency for 90 days. Possibly the gun store does not know what it is talking about. If you are confident that the store does know what it is talking about then just follow their instructions.
Yeah, but there's no rule against buying from a private seller because you can't get one from a gun store, is there? I'm not too familiar with this and google search doesn't help, I can't seem to get the wording right to get an answer for my query.I've never made a face-to-face purchase so can't help you with that. Maybe others can. Maybe you should phrase your question as "What are the rules for face to face gun purchases in my state" and "are there any additional rules for Permanent residents"?

Wonderclam
August 22, 2010, 10:19 PM
This is getting a little too complicated. I should just stick with my .22 ruger and be happy with it. The .22 magnum interchangable cylinder should be good enough for home defense.

KodiakBeer
August 23, 2010, 03:56 PM
Have your Mom make out a rental agreement for you. You should be able to download a fill-in-the-blanks agreement from any number of sources.

Wonderclam
August 23, 2010, 08:11 PM
Have your Mom make out a rental agreement for you. You should be able to download a fill-in-the-blanks agreement from any number of sources.

That part is no problem. The problem is that I don't have any of the bills on my name. Only thing I have is the AC payment bill and my cellphone bill.

crossrhodes
August 23, 2010, 10:45 PM
everrallm, dec41971 was not making a political statement but stated mear fact. You were enticing him to return with a political statement.

KodiakBeer
August 24, 2010, 11:19 AM
A rental agreement will suffice.

hso
August 24, 2010, 12:20 PM
Is there some reason that the OP can't get a driver's license to establish residency?

What is the OP's age so that we can avoid assumptions about restrictions or lack thereof?

Many students living on campus, but away from home, may face the same sorts of problems so how do they establish the residency requirements without utility or rent receipts? Might those threads dealing with those situations be applicable? Is the OP a university student that can establish residency through documentation of his student status or does the OP have a job that he can use his pay stub or tax forms to establish 90+ day residency?

Wonderclam
August 24, 2010, 12:47 PM
I have a permanent resident card, been living here since 1996. Came here when I was 15 and now almost 30. I have a driver's license I've had since 2001 and it shows my current address.

They want 90 days worth of electric bills to prove I've been living in the house for 90 days or more and they want a written document by my mom (the house owner) saying that I've been living here for 90 days or more. I have no problem with providing the written document, but I have none of the required bills under my name to prove that I've been living here for 90 days or longer. I thought this was just store policy, but turns out (as posters have stated) that this is federal law.

natman
August 24, 2010, 02:40 PM
Have one of the bills put in your name. Wait 90 days, then buy what you want.

hso
August 24, 2010, 03:30 PM
Here's a question for our members versed in this regulatory issue, would pay stub or W2 or any other legitimate proof of residence other than the more common utility bill or rental agreement meet the federal requirements?

And if all else fails -

Las Vegas Group I
Resident Agent in Charge
8965 S. Eastern Avenue, Suite 200
Las Vegas, Nevada 89123 USA
Voice (702) 347-5910
Fax (702) 347-5911

wishin
August 24, 2010, 04:00 PM
You can bet that you're not the first, nor will you be the last, to be in this situation and have this complication. Given the fact that your drivers license has this address on it, and that you can prove residency at this address with a statement from your parents, it should not be a problem. Go for it.

esquare
August 24, 2010, 04:11 PM
Hm - it seems like maybe the store is wanting utility bills from your house (that are in your mother's name) and then a notice written by your mother testifying that you've been living in the house as well. That would actually make sense. :-) (But, what federal gun laws make sense?)

I would suggest clarifying that point with several gun stores, not just one. It can't be this difficult to purchase a gun from a store in Veags. There's got to be some other documentation that you have that will work.

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