[bigalexe]

Olympic Pentathalon will no longer be using real projectile weapons in the name of "Safety." Instead they will now feature laser pistols.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/modern_pentathlon/8936619.stm

Discuss...

[Bullnettles]

Wonderful thinking, I mean, look at all the terrible accidents from the trained shooters!!!! The humanity!!!

[War Squirrel]

Oh wow. That is disgusting. I guess it will be a better judge of the athlete since lasers go pretty much the same spot every time and any (nonexistent) safety issues would be cleared up, but it's sad to see tradition get hucked out of the window.

[ktmmudd]

Maybe in the name of " safety " the athletes should use a Wii type simulator instead of
those dangerous snow boards, downhill skis and the like.

[oasis618]

:eek: Stu-pid :eek:

[devildog66]

Mothers of America strikes again. Now about this javelin event...:rolleyes:

[azyogi]

One more reason to boycott this travesty, and all who advertise there.

[jhco]

Are handguns banned in the UK? I think they are, maybe not I'm not sure.
Maybe this has something to do with that since the Olympics are there

[Bullnettles]

Gotta question... Don't lasers make you go blind?

[Rail Driver]

Don't they realize that using laser pistols completely eliminates the skill of shooting from the competition? Anybody can put a dot on a target, it takes skill to put a bullet there.

[Jim Watson]

Georgie Patton be rolling over in his grave.

[average_shooter]

Even worse:

(From the caption to the picture in the article, emphasis added)
Pentathletes currently use air pistols in the sport's finale, the combined event

They're not even replacing firearms, they're replacing the air guns. I know air guns can still be dangerous, but come on...

[RDCL]

So, this is a hint of things to come? Like "shooting" at targets with a flashlight in the name of safety? At least Wal-mart will always have batteries.

Just silly.
Russ

[rygould]

This is appalling! Do they plan to next train their police and military forces in laser tag arenas?

There is going overboard, and then there is this.

[bigalexe]

Oh sorry, yeah this is semi-firearm because they do use air pistols presumably because handguns aren't quite so ubiquitous outside the United States.

[Uhrmacher]

"Based on this new technology, all countries in the world can compete in our sport."Least common denominator mode, engage!

[Webbj0219]

Umm part of the skill of shooting a pistol is anticipating the kick., Are they gonna install a kick-simulator as well. And yeah I got a laugh out of them replacing the bb guns (air pistols). I mean hey "youll shoot your eye out kid", somehow comes to mind. And javalins arent really that dangerous since they arent shaped like pistols, thats what this really comes down to Im sure. This just all seems so rediculous. Then again Im not trying to make light or downplay all the ppl that do die to guns every year. That is very tragic, they are weopons and can easily enough be missused. But I think that using weopons in the games is I think what they did in the ancient times. Im sure they didnt use fake arrows or javalins or discus. Those were the weopons of that day. I know many lives are taken every year either negligantly or malicously with handguns. But using laser pointer guns in this sport is going into the rediculous in my opinion.

[Nushif]

I could see the lure for a second rate console arcade to go to laser guns so they can put ranges in cities .... but an Olympic Sport!?

[killchain]

Oh wow. That is disgusting. I guess it will be a better judge of the athlete since lasers go pretty much the same spot every time and any (nonexistent) safety issues would be cleared up, but it's sad to see tradition get hucked out of the window.

Hahaha, what?

When's the last time you played a "Deer Hunter" arcade game in an arcade? Or for that matter, how about those fakey M16's they use for the [edit=EST] ranges the military uses?

Switching to glorified Zappers. Disgusting. :P

[killchain]

This is appalling! Do they plan to next train their police and military forces in laser tag arenas?

There is going overboard, and then there is this.
Uhh... they do.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyweapons/a/virtualcombat.htm

EST ranges.

[Manco]

Maybe in the name of " safety " the athletes should use a Wii type simulator instead of
those dangerous snow boards, downhill skis and the like.

They're saving this idea for the next Winter Olympics, after all the coverage that the biathlon got last time around. :rolleyes:

In this vein, why not go all the way and replace the Olympics entirely with animation and be done with it?

Gotta question... Don't lasers make you go blind?

You'll burn your retina out, kid. ;)

[chicharrones]

Well, as long as the laser can duplicate a trajectory arc, or simulate wind effect ...

Oh, wait ...
:barf:

[shotgunjoel]

In their defense, I think that their safety concern was more about being able to put ranges in populated areas without worry. I don't think that they were worried about athletes shooting each other.

[ElectrikKoolAid]

Gee, all those nasty evil black guns can just be so scary.

Maybe they should use frisbees for target paractice.

Or hacky-saks. Maybe Tie-Dye hacky saks.

[danez71]

In their defense, I think that their safety concern was more about being able to put ranges in populated areas without worry. I don't think that they were worried about athletes shooting each other.

Bingo.

There's this quote in the article: "We can now hold competitions in parks and shopping malls."


I guess its for the children....... :rolleyes:

[MinnMooney]

Part of the skill that these Olympic shooters possess is wind estimation and trajectory. Those two items are removed from the equation so it's like shooting in a complete vacuum without gravity.

Man, could I ever do better on prairie dogs at 1000 yards !! I'd just shoot and if the laser hit them (& how could it not?) I'd yell for them to fall over dead. Cool.

[Zundfolge]

This is ridiculous. Unless of course the new guns are BlasTech Industries DL-44s.

[Henry K. Ruger]

Law enforcement already train certain groups using "Simunitions" for portions of their training programs. I think cycling is going to have a change too. They are going to the stationary bike for better anti-doping control and tv coverage. It seems a shame to turn the pentathalon into an arcade amusement.

[shotgunjoel]

Gone are the days when Patton used a 38 Special for the pentathlon.

[Prince Yamato]

Isn't this basically Olympic laser pointing? Lame...

[PT1911]

Now, runners should be on treadmills, swimmers in 2 ft pools going one at a time, pole vault, high-jump, jav, disc, (whatever the heavy ball is called,) wrestling, power lifting, and badminton should be eliminated altogether as they are just too dangerous.


BUT, imagine the world record scores!!!!!

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Because this is the kind of thing that happens when guns are in the Olympics! :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijMOtPzVSmc

[PT1911]

Now that was awesome 5-2-7!!

[Lonestar49]

...

No recoil issues.. :scrutiny:


Lase and blaze..


Sad,



Ls

[LHRGunslinger]

Excuse me I need to go and cry for a while.

[bwsmith2850]

Law enforcement already train certain groups using "Simunitions" for portions of their training programs.

It's not quite the same as the Olympics are doing. Simunitions allow for interactive force on force training. This way we can teach live gunfighting & shooting at moving targets that shoot back without killing each other. At least here in WI it can't replace square range live fire training.

[Buck Snort]

Stupid is as stupid be.

[TexasBill]

Hey, maybe some enterprising country will figure a way to amp up the lasers... That could be cool!

On the other hand, I wonder about the supposed cost savings: I can shoot an airgun in my house. Traps aren't that expensive and anyone who makes it to the Olympics ought to be able to hit one of those. That being said, holding competitions in parking lots and shopping malls might spur an interest in the shooting sports.

[Radium]

so how fast will this laser be travelling? what about the small and gentle kick from the gun that u need to keep steady since the bullet is still inside the barrel?
why not just change it to fingerpainting while they are at it!

[Shadow 7D]

minor point, but yall might want to look up the record on that javelin safety thingy...

see quite a number of spectators AND TRACK Officials have been killed, they redesigned the official javelin and added weight after the world record was broken, by impaling a guy in the 6th?? row of the stands (not field seating)


SO can anybody name a time somebody was SHOT at a track a field event???

[vaupet]

This is a dangerous evolution for European shooters. We need permits for about any firearm and need to proof a reason to own guns. And the main reason is ""sport", "self defence" is NOT an acceptable reason in most European countries. (we have the POLICE to protect us:scrutiny:)
With this gismo, the antis can say we don't need real firearms to do shooting sports, we can play with nintendo to do sports.
By the way, the pentatlon competion was shot with air-pistols with max 7.5 joule power and no recoil. I have a 10 metre stand in my basement for practice and this can be done in any location with a simple sheet metal bullet catcher-card holder and a 1/2 inch thick fibreboard backstop.

[Joe Demko]

The Olympic sports are so heavily stylized that they are almost like kabuki. What have the fencing events to do with real sword fighting and how much like a real blade are the swords? The modern Olympics have always had so much political BS, cheating, and chicanery that I just don't care if they have shooting events at all.

[ultradoc]

what about going a step further and putting a laser on your thumb/pointer finger?

[UKShooter]

This is so stupid its not even funny :( The country I live in ruining a shooting sport because of health and safety issues. i dont even know what to say :(

Surely professional Pentathletes are going to refuse to comete in what is essentially a completely different even than what they have been training in for years?

[Manco]

Law enforcement already train certain groups using "Simunitions" for portions of their training programs.

Training is a different matter. For example, I've used a laser as a training aid for trigger control, and there are certain aspects of training for which I use an Airsoft replica of my defensive pistol. The skills that are learned must then be applied to real fire training because lasers and Airsoft are not going to get the job done against real bad guys.

The question is what aspects of shooting should be incorporated into a world-class athletic competition. In my opinion, shooting has already been watered-down more than enough in the Olympics, and now in the pentathlon it has been reduced to a narrow subset of isolated skills related to shooting rather than actual shooting (at least the old airguns launched projectiles that had mass and were affected physically by environmental conditions).

so how fast will this laser be travelling?

I hope that's a rhetorical question. :scrutiny:

This is a dangerous evolution for European shooters. We need permits for about any firearm and need to proof a reason to own guns. And the main reason is ""sport", "self defence" is NOT an acceptable reason in most European countries. (we have the POLICE to protect us:scrutiny:)
With this gismo, the antis can say we don't need real firearms to do shooting sports, we can play with nintendo to do sports.

It's only a matter of time, isn't it? :uhoh::( Now would be the time to think of how to defend against it. This thread has gone over the basic reasons. Let's not get too alarmed over this just yet, though, because I'm sure everybody knows that there would be more resistance to such a vile concept outside of the Olympics.

[shotgunjoel]

What have the fencing events to do with real sword fighting and how much like a real blade are the swords?
I fence and the swords are pretty similar. Fencing used to be how people practiced for duels, so I'd say it's close to real sword fighting. The point of fencing is to basically stab the other person without being stabbed yourself, so I'd say that that's a lot like an actual fight. The only thing that's really been modified is that you have to stay on the one meter wide strip. Other than that, and the modifications needed for safety and scoring it's a lot like real sword fighting.

[CoRoMo]

Back in mid-February, in a thread about the Biathlon, I had a sort-of premonition that they would force Laser Tag onto these athletes.

[Joe Demko]

Fencing will be like real sword fighting when every inch of the body is a legitimate target and kicking your opponent in the nuts, should the opportunity present, is legal.

[doc2rn]

Sad......yup that about sums it up

[Smokey Joe]

Score one more for the Nanny State.

[nelsonal]

Fencing will be like real sword fighting when every inch of the body is a legitimate target and kicking your opponent in the nuts, should the opportunity present, is legal.
The entire body is a valid target in epee, body to body contact isn't a foul, no right of way rules. Epee is pretty much dueling to first blood (if you were actually dueling your goal would of course be to get first blood from a vital organ.

[Justin]

I'm completely unsurprised by this. The International Olympic Committee has had a thoroughly antagonistic view of the shooting sports for quite some time now.

Safety and lead abatement requirements mean that construction of the venues for shooting are expensive. The shooting sports aren't terribly popular in a lot of countries due to draconian restrictions on firearms ownership, which means that there isn't a lot of interest in the competitors.

And worst of all, from the IOC's (and no doubt, NBC's) point of view the Olympic shooting sports are terribly boring for spectators, with relatively few people actually watching them on TV or the web, which makes them a losing proposition, profit-wise.

Furthermore, the shooting games allowed at the Olympics are all from a bygone era. The air gun and rimfire precision shooting games have been waning for quite some time, especially in the US, as most people who decide to shoot competitively are picking sports that are much more dynamic such as Steel Challenge, Cowboy Action Shooting, IPSC, and 3Gun.

After all, once you've felt the rush of blazing through a course of fire with a centerfire handgun, who wants to go shoot ten meter air pistol?

[russ69]

[QUOTE]Gone are the days when Patton used a 38 Special for the pentathlon. [QUOTE]

Just a minor point. Patton was not an Olympian. He only competed in the Military Olympics, not the same thing.
Anyway, the Olympic air pistol is already an expensive shooting tool that has no connection to any firearm (other than an Olympic free pistol). It's already a sport unique to itself. In a lot of countries an air gun is classified as a firearm and they are subject to the same restrictions. This will help that situation. I don't like it either but it will provide more competition and opportunities to compete, so for that reason it makes sense.

Thanx, Russ

[30mag]

They'll probably ban the laser pistols because you can shoot down jets with them.

[Justin]

This will help that situation. I don't like it either but it will provide more competition and opportunities to compete, so for that reason it makes sense.

The neutering of the shooting sports in the Olympics is part of the reason why many of the top shooters in the US don't take part. (Not to denigrate those, like Matt Emmons, who do shoot in the Olympics for the US.)

[berrieberrie]

And the main reason is ""sport", "self defence" is NOT an acceptable reason in most European countries.
Ah, but it IS a legal ground in Belgium - last time I checked, the "self defense" option was still on the application form. Of course, you still have to show some proof that you're at risk somehow (which is a bit ridiculous), but it's still possible to get such a permit...

[berrieberrie]

The shooting sports aren't terribly popular in a lot of countries due to draconian restrictions on firearms ownership, which means that there isn't a lot of interest in the competitors.

It depends how you define "shooting sports". In my country, the gun law is rather strict as well, but there's LOTS of people shooting and owning guns (for legitimate reasons, of course). But the shooting "sports" (such as the olympics) are much less interesting, mainly because of the - as so eloquently stated - "neutering": lots and lots of rules, a gun that more resembles a microscope and that doesn't make noise or big holes. Compare it to dancing: clubs and bars are packed every weekend, but the ballroom dancing competitions here are few and far between.

[chicharrones]

so how fast will this laser be travelling?

500 feet per second

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/16.gif

[springmom]

Mothers of America strikes again. Now about this javelin event...
Ah, for the love of Pete. If I had one wish for gun boards it would be that the equation of mothers with antigunners would DISAPPEAR. Lots of women shoot. Lots of men hate guns. Get over it.

Jan

[bigalexe]

so how fast will this laser be travelling?

Velocity = sqrt(e/m)

[russ69]

The neutering of the shooting sports in the Olympics is part of the reason why many of the top shooters in the US don't take part. (Not to denigrate those, like Matt Emmons, who do shoot in the Olympics for the US.)

I'm not sure if this is true. I don't know of any Olympic quality shooters that have chosen not to compete. I have shot some Olympic sports, they just are not that popular mostly because the cost of the equipment and the difficulty of the shooting. I've never heard anyone say they won't shoot a free rifle cause, darn it. the rifle is too neutered? Olympic shooting still is of the highest standard.

Thanx, Russ

[JTHunter]

SO TRUE!!
As The Duke said in The Undefeated: "Windage and elevation, Mrs Langdon, Windage and elevation!"

As for the speed, light travels (in the vacuum of space) at 186,000 miles per second. Due to resistance and diffusion in the atmospere, light is slightly slower and even slower in water.
FYI

[mack]

What we really need is a real olympics - one that reflects more the spirit of martial arts and competition. Get rid of all the garbage sports and all the national teams and let all individuals and self regulated teams compete - if nations want to subsidize an team or teams fine - but no national banners - all comers compete.

Get all the martial sports that exist now and their organizations together where once every four years there is a wordwide martial arts olympics - IPSC, IDPA, Cowboy Action, sporting clays, the full auto boys, long range and/or sniper competitions, MMA/UFC. Also add in groups or just allow open competion in Bow and Arrow, fencing ect... Add other skill competitions that are part of modern martial skills sets - car racing or driving, motorcycle or dirt bike riding, piloting/racing airplanes, sky-diving, scuba competitions, paintball and/or simunitions, rapelling, climbing, ect...

For the decatholon - one athlete to compete in ten events including long range shooting, motorcycle racing, skydiving, scuba, running obstacle course, steel pistol or three gun, boxing, wrestling, a mile run, and the final simunitions with all ten going against one another.

Now who wouldn't want to see all that action, shooting, hitting, racing, cars, planes, motorcycles, machine guns, pistols, rifles, fighting...

[M-Cameron]

like said before, theyre not replacing firearms.....theyre replacing air pistols.........now the whole " safety" aspect is a load of crap....your average Olympic air pistol shoots at around 400-600 fps....with a .177 cal pellet thatll put out about 3 FPE....so unless there are a load of hemophiliac rodents they are worried about being hit......they have nothing to worry about....

and for reducing cost, heck, the pistol is the most expensive part, and i dont imagine these laser pistols costing any less.......i mean, if you can afford a $1000-3000 air pistol.......im sure you can chunk down the hefty $20-30 for 500 pellets(competition grade)

....as for putting the events in malls and what not..........a heavy blanket and some plywood will be more than enough to stop a pellet.......heck, air pistols are also silent....so there is no noise pollution.

its not about safety....its about "de-militarizing" the olympics....making it more PR so johnny watching at home wont get brainwashed into becoming a gun toting maniac....

i honestly hope a lot of shooters refuse to shoot in the events so they are forced to end this stupidity.......


you know, in the name of safety, i say we vote to remove the water from swimming events......dont want people drowning now do we.....

[Webbj0219]

Springmom, the quote about Mothers of America wasnt, against women in general. Mothers of America is an organization that focus' on making things safer. Sorta like the Brady organization. Except MOA doesnt focus specifically on guns like Brady does. From what my friend has told me MOA was responsible for getting rid of the rapel wall for Marine Corps boot camp at Paris Island. They thought it too dangerous. Thats about all I know of them.

[Zoogster]

What we really need is a real olympics - one that reflects more the spirit of martial arts and competition. Get rid of all the garbage sports and all the national teams and let all individuals and self regulated teams compete - if nations want to subsidize an team or teams fine - but no national banners - all comers compete.

Get all the martial sports that exist now and their organizations together where once every four years there is a wordwide martial arts olympics - IPSC, IDPA, Cowboy Action, sporting clays, the full auto boys, long range and/or sniper competitions, MMA/UFC. Also add in groups or just allow open competion in Bow and Arrow, fencing ect... Add other skill competitions that are part of modern martial skills sets - car racing or driving, motorcycle or dirt bike riding, piloting/racing airplanes, sky-diving, scuba competitions, paintball and/or simunitions, rapelling, climbing, ect...



That would be good.

On that point you know that was in fact the original purpose of the Olympics.
All of the Olympics had to do with skills used in warfare. It was a way for all the states to get together and remind each other in a peaceful way just how good they were at given skills of war at the time.
Giving some bragging rights, and obviously as a result discouraging actual war when others saw how good some of the potential enemy were.

The discus was a weapon thrown at enemy and over cover. The Javelin was a weapon thrown into the enemy. Wrestling was a measure of individual strength and grappling skills. Pole vaulting was how some got over enemy fortifications to gain entry into enemy areas. The hoplitodromos was a running race in full armor with a shield.
The ancient pentathlon combined several martial skills into an event, from running to weapon use.
The more modern version originally did the same.


The modern version of the Olympics would not really be the Olympics at all. There is appropriate shooting events held in the USA, but they are primarily domestic competition.
The modern version of the Olympics would be more along the lines of air shows, or joint military exercises between military forces where they compete.
Of course warfare has moved to a level that is not really open to individual competition beyond the infantry level.
Skills with a cutting edge vehicle or munition costing hundreds of millions to build, train with, and demonstrate in the spirit of the original games.
While the more affordable relevant events beyond firearms are typically not legal due to laws. Something like unguided AT rocket competitions, or mortar or similar artillery might be neat though and reasonably affordable. :neener:

What actually passes for shooting in the Olympics is so far removed from the practicality it was originally intended to simulate that the move to lasers is more of a political blow to firearms than much of an actual change in the event.
Air guns? .22s at the most?
Originally they used battle rifles in battle rifle calibers of the day, more on par with the original intent of the event.

[russ69]

What we really need is a real olympics - one that reflects more the spirit of martial arts and competition. Get rid of all the garbage sports and all the national teams and let all individuals and self regulated teams compete - if nations want to subsidize an team or teams fine - but no national banners - all comers compete.

We already have it, it's called the National Matches at Camp Perry. Real rifles, real competition and anyone can compete heads up. Men, women and even handicapped shooters can compete on an equal basis. Your country of origin only matters as to what rifle you can shoot.

Thanx, Russ

[bobmcd]

Well, maybe it will even out: pentathlon with laser pistols and winter biathlon with phased plasma rifles (in the 40-watt range) :)

[mack]

Camp Perry is wonderful - but it is restricted to shooting rifles at known distances and thus limited compared to the original concept of the Olympics and also compared to the fuller panoply of martial arts skills.

Yes, military against military would in some sense be more a true test of martial arts - but even in the original Olympics - they did not to my knowledge use many of the siege weapons of war - the warship galleys - or compete in formations like the phalanx which all were integral and crucial parts of military success and power in the day.

Even then the focus was on the skill of individual warriors and martial artists.


Besides guys - it would be so awesome.

[killchain]

It's not quite the same as the Olympics are doing. Simunitions allow for interactive force on force training. This way we can teach live gunfighting & shooting at moving targets that shoot back without killing each other. At least here in WI it can't replace square range live fire training.
Yes, Simunitions.

Used those. Those consisting of the sphincter type will shoot you in the legs to make it hurt.

I loved the Army, haha.

[Guns and more]

In their defense, I think that their safety concern was more about being able to put ranges in populated areas without worry. I don't think that they were worried about athletes shooting each other.
Maybe they should limit the pole vault to 6', so they could practice in normal rooms.

But wait. Let's give everyone a gold medal so no one gets their feelings hurt.

[jakeiscrazy]

I'm just waiting for a 50 BMG laser rifle!

I also want to see a mag dump and reload done with a laser pistol.

[Webbj0219]

Jakeiscrazy, it would probably be a nicle-cadmium dump and a fresh battery reload. :(

But hey maybe they are just practicinbg for the future? In those star wars movies I seem to remember them using laser pistols. Maybe these will be common place soon? So the Olympics commitee decided to practice with these ahead of time. Besides lasers are way cooler than air soft. lol

[Jaybird78]

F-u-b-a-r

[Justin]

I'm not sure if this is true. I don't know of any Olympic quality shooters that have chosen not to compete. I have shot some Olympic sports, they just are not that popular mostly because the cost of the equipment and the difficulty of the shooting. I've never heard anyone say they won't shoot a free rifle cause, darn it. the rifle is too neutered? Olympic shooting still is of the highest standard.

Thanx, Russ

Russ, starting after the 1968 Olympics the IOC began moving to neuter the Olympic shooting games when they eliminated the 300 yard International Centerfire Rifle event. Add to it the elimnation first of the realistic "hog" target in running rifle, the silhuette targets in the Duel event, and then the game itself and you end up with what the Olympic shooting sports are today: limited to .22s and air guns (and now lasers, evidently).

As for Olympic-caliber shooters who opt to not take part, back in the 1990s there was an attempt to recruit Olympic shooters from the ranks of US competitive shooters who were not currently competing in Olympic shooting sports. IIRC, this included approaching the likes of Jerry Miculek, Rob Leatham, and a number of other high profile competitive shooters.

Depending on who you ask, there was a parting of the ways due, in part, to these shooters finding the Olympic shooting sports to be unengaging.

Sent from my G1 using Tapatalk.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I truely miss 300 meter matches as they really seperated the men from the boys. I see folks who can not hit the target with accuracy off hand at 200 yards and to do it at 300 is lots of fun. still lots of those targets laying around.

I find it sad when they cancel any olympic event and to change it to a laser pointer is also sad. I forsee in the far future where other things may replace the firearm in the olympics but I hope not to see it in my life time. But then again everything changes I suppose.

As far as rifle sports waning? heck you would not know it from the crowd at the nationals. If I remember right and it was only a month ago a few of the matches were at compacity.
All of the matches here in this state have not fallen off much even with the recession going on.

I figure some day if any off these run and gun matches take off internationally which I doubt due to gun restrictions around the world but you never can tell they just may be included in the olympics.

I like all gun sports and with the great support from 4H shooting and some very good small bore clubs I do not see this sport going away in my life time.

[zoom6zoom]

If they were truly concerned with safety they would ban the luge. If you look at the list of the top ten most dangerous Olympic sports, none of the shooting sports even makes the cut.

[Webbj0219]

What this comes down to in a way is the heart of this gun control war thats being waged all over the world. Its hard to exagerate just how silly this is. I mean from airsoft, really? This may seem inconsiquential in the grand scheme of things. But then again maybe its not? Its just another battle in this gun control war. If we lose this on maybe nothing will happen? Or maybe this will give the brady's, the UN and other anti gunners more momentum? This will be a tough one, not sure if there is we can do here in the USA? Its more of an international thing. But if I lived in the UK youd better believe Id be making a stink.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Now the olympic shooting sports is just boring, bunch of people standing pointing gun looking things clicking them. There goes any hope of attracting spectators.

[russ69]

...Add to it the elimination first of the realistic "hog" target in running rifle,....

Yeah, I have a Feinwerkbau Running Target rifle and Premiere RT scope. I went through the target change. It didn't seem to help the sport as it is no longer in the Olympics.

Thanx, Russ