1958 Rifles A Modern Encyclopedia by Henry M Stebbins


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Hangingrock
August 27, 2010, 09:14 AM
In 1958 Rifles A Modern Encyclopedia by Henry M Stebbins listed the following cartridges for deer. That being fifty two years past the world certainly has changed. The popularity of certain cartridges listed have diminished in usage and some listed are at the point of obsolescence.

25-35Win, .25Rem, 250-3000Sav, 257-Roberts, 30-30Win, 30Rem, 300Sav, 30-40-Krag, 303Sav, 303-Brtish, 32-40Win (Marlin & Savage), 32W-n-Spl, 32Rem, 35Rem, 351Win-self loading, 38-55Win(Marlin & Savage), 401Win-self loading, and 44-40Win.

Example rifles that would have been available in certain chambering are the Remington (M8/M81), (M14/141), Savage (99), and the Winchester (07) Except for the Savage 99 the other mentioned rifles had ceased being manufactured prior to or shortly after WW2 thou the Winchester 07 in 351caliber ceased production in 1957. I believe Savage quit production of the M99 in the nineteen eighties.

There are 375 pages divided into 32 chapters and an index. The topic matter covers a broad range of rifle topics but is dated to the period of the late nineteen fifties. None the less a good reference for what was available to the rifleman with an historical perspective.

One may obtain used copies on line. My example is in excellent condition with dust jacket for a book published fifty plus years ago.

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Onmilo
August 27, 2010, 09:43 AM
Having owned one, I consider the .250 Savage one of the finest medium game cartridges ever developed.
Short action, light recoil and report, lightweight rifles, flat shooting, accurate, long barrel life, hits with the power of much heavier cartridges or can be downloaded and used on smaller game,,,

One of the dumber moves Savage market reps. made was to discontinue the 99A and basically commercially abandon this cartridge without even trying to ad. market it into the future.
NO! No! Everyone NEEDS a super short .25 MAGNUM!!??,,,

On a bright note, one can send a short action Savage back to the factory and they can rebarrel it to .250 Savage through their custom shop.
Thank the President of Savage Arms for doing his best to keep this wonderful cartridge alive:)

Edit to add; Consider this,,A modern Model 99A, .250 Savage and .358 Winchester caliber options, matte stainless, synthetic stocks, 22" medium contour barrel, folding apeature rear and post front iron sights, drilled and tapped for scope mounting,cartridge counter rotary magazine, sling swivels,$750.00 MSR, I know they could do it if they put their collective minds to the gearstand.

Jim Watson
August 27, 2010, 11:46 AM
I always enjoyed reading and rereading 'Rifles, A Modern Encyclopedia' and 'Pistols, A Modern Encyclopedia.' He was an English professor and a good writer as well as knowledgeable in the field. His co-authors Bert Shay and Oscar Hammond were pretty good, too. Pity he didn't have the money and connections to shoot and hunt all over the world like some other writers.

If you look, what most people consider barely adequate for deer hunting now, things like .30-06 and .300 Magnum, he listed separately as big game rifles. I guess the deer are tougher now.

natman
August 27, 2010, 12:15 PM
In 1958 Rifles A Modern Encyclopedia by Henry M Stebbins listed the following cartridges for deer. That being fifty two years past the world certainly has changed. The popularity of certain cartridges listed have diminished in usage and some listed are at the point of obsolescence.

25-35Win, .25Rem, 250-3000Sav, 257-Roberts, 30-30Win, 30Rem, 300Sav, 30-40-Krag, 303Sav, 303-Brtish, 32-40Win (Marlin & Savage), 32W-n-Spl, 32Rem, 35Rem, 351Win-self loading, 38-55Win(Marlin & Savage), 401Win-self loading, and 44-40Win.



A cartridge is obsolescent when there are no new production rifles available for it.

25-35Win, 30-40-Krag, 303-Brtish, 32-40Win (Marlin & Savage), 32W-n-Spl and 38-55Win(Marlin & Savage) are already obsolescent.

A cartridge is obsolete when none of the major factories make ammo for it.

.25Rem, 30Rem, 303Sav, 32Rem, 351Win-self loading and 401Win-self loading are obsolete.

CraigC
August 27, 2010, 01:15 PM
25-35Win, 30-40-Krag, 303-Brtish, 32-40Win (Marlin & Savage), 32W-n-Spl and 38-55Win(Marlin & Savage) are already obsolescent.
Not quite. Actually, just before its demise, Winchester was reintroducing the 25-35 and .38-55. Had the company not closed its doors we would now have 1894's in those wonderful chamberings. New Winchester (USRAC) 1895 rifles in .30-40 are available now, with several rifle and saddle ring carbine runs built in the last couple years. The 1885 in .38-55 is also available now. As is the Ruger #1 in .303British.

natman
August 27, 2010, 01:50 PM
Not quite. Actually, just before its demise, Winchester was reintroducing the 25-35 and .38-55. Had the company not closed its doors we would now have 1894's in those wonderful chamberings. New Winchester (USRAC) 1895 rifles in .30-40 are available now, with several rifle and saddle ring carbine runs built in the last couple years. The 1885 in .38-55 is also available now. As is the Ruger #1 in .303British.

Well unfortunately, Winchester DID close its doors so 1894s in the 25-35 and 38-55 chamberings are not currently available here in the real world. Would'a, could'a and should'a don't count.

I can't find a listing for a current 1885 in 38-55, nor a current Ruger #1 in 303, although they have been offered in the past.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/category.asp?family=002C

http://www.ruger.com/products/no1DE/models.html

You're right about the 1895 in 30-40, limited production model notwithstanding. So the old warhorse isn't quite obsolescent yet.

Hangingrock
August 27, 2010, 03:28 PM
Jim Watson"If you look, what most people consider barely adequate for deer hunting now, things like .30-06 and .300 Magnum, he listed separately as big game rifles. I guess the deer are tougher now."

I have two center fire hunting rifles that remain from my hunting days. The 30-30 was always more than enough for deer. I'll admit to using the 30-06 on deer but it’s like using a 10# sledge hammer to drive a finishing nail.

Otony
August 27, 2010, 04:02 PM
Well now, I just took a Marlin .30-30 into Wayne York's shop to have it rebarreled to, ahem, .25-35 Winchester.

Guess I am anti-obsolecent minded. It is just a nice little cartridge for the whitetails we have around here. :p

Aren't we all
August 27, 2010, 05:16 PM
In my opinion something is only obsolete when it has no use anymore that being said my .303 and .351 have plenty of use:neener:. Therefore not obsolete just difficult to get ammo for.

Runningman
August 27, 2010, 09:30 PM
No 22 Long Rifle? Got to wonder how many deer, caribou and other big game animals have been taken with the little 22 over many decades.

natman
August 28, 2010, 03:17 AM
If you look, what most people consider barely adequate for deer hunting now, things like .30-06 and .300 Magnum, he listed separately as big game rifles. I guess the deer are tougher now.

Please provide a quote where any recognized authority says that the 30-06 or 300 Magnum are "barely adequate" for deer.

Jim Watson
August 28, 2010, 06:47 AM
Recognized authority?
There is plenty of authority in the gun stores and check in stations.
Lots of authorities putting their money on the line for magnumbs in deer country.

natman
August 28, 2010, 12:24 PM
Recognized authority?
There is plenty of authority in the gun stores and check in stations.
Lots of authorities putting their money on the line for magnumbs in deer country.
If someone wants to hunt deer with a magnum, more power to them. It's not the same as saying "most people" think a 300 mag is "barely adequate" for deer.

In fact hardly anyone with any sense or experience thinks that. It's easy to "win" arguments when you argue against ridiculous statements attributed to non-existent people.

CraigC
August 28, 2010, 01:07 PM
I can't find a listing for a current 1885 in 38-55, nor a current Ruger #1 in 303, although they have been offered in the past.
1885's have been available in .38-55 in several cofigurations in just the last year.
http://www.galleryofguns.com

There are also other single shots available in .38-55. Neither chambering is "obsolescent".

No stipulation was made as to production quantity. The simple statement was made that if no new rifles are available in the chambering, then the cartridge is obsolescent.

IMHO, a cartridge can't be considered obsolete if you can still readily obtain components for handloading it.

Some of those new Winchesters 'did' make it out the door. The fact that it was just a couple years ago and not yesterday is, IMHO, irrelevant. Fact remains, there was enough interest to warrant reintroducing these cartridges. The 1894 is back in production at Miroku so they ain't dead yet.


In fact hardly anyone with any sense or experience thinks that. It's easy to "win" arguments when you argue against ridiculous statements attributed to non-existent people.
Don't be naive. There are a hell of a lot of people who think you need a belted magnum to kill deer. Wish I had a nickel for every one I've met. Look at how many new magnum chamberings there have been introduced in the last ten or fifteen years. Do you really think there are that many elk and moose hunters? No, the vast majority of them are sold to whitetail deer hunters.

natman
August 28, 2010, 02:11 PM
1885's have been available in .38-55 in several cofigurations in just the last year.
http://www.galleryofguns.com

There are also other single shots available in .38-55. Neither chambering is "obsolescent".

No stipulation was made as to production quantity. The simple statement was made that if no new rifles are available in the chambering, then the cartridge is obsolescent.

IMHO, a cartridge can't be considered obsolete if you can still readily obtain components for handloading it.

Some of those new Winchesters 'did' make it out the door. The fact that it was just a couple years ago and not yesterday is, IMHO, irrelevant. Fact remains, there was enough interest to warrant reintroducing these cartridges. The 1894 is back in production at Miroku so they ain't dead yet.



The definition is based on what is actually being produced now, not what used to be produced.

Cartridges often go in and out of obsolescence. The 250 Savage was obsolescent for a time, but happily Savage started making rifles for it again.


Don't be naive. There are a hell of a lot of people who think you need a belted magnum to kill deer. Wish I had a nickel for every one I've met. Look at how many new magnum chamberings there have been introduced in the last ten or fifteen years. Do you really think there are that many elk and moose hunters? No, the vast majority of them are sold to whitetail deer hunters.

There may be many people who use magnums, specifically the WSMs, to hunt deer. That is NOT the same thing as saying most people (well more than half) think, and I quote, "the 30-06 and 300 mag are barely adequate for deer."

Most people think no such thing, regardless of what they may happen to hunt with. The statement is a ridiculous piece of hyperbole, and my request for a quote from someone who has actually expressed such an opinion in print remains unanswered.

CraigC
August 28, 2010, 02:34 PM
"Most" are not enthusiasts participating on internet forums. "Most" people buy a rifle and a box of "shells" and that lasts them 10yrs. Plus I think Jim was being a little facetious.

Jim Watson
August 28, 2010, 08:49 PM
Facetous?
No.
What a Centran would call "exaggeration for conversational effect", perhaps.

Let me just say that I do in fact personally know a substantial number of hunters who feel that they need a magnum rifle for deer hunting, whether for "knockdown power" or for extreme range.

Hangingrock
August 29, 2010, 07:59 PM
Before relocating to my current state of residence I attend sight in days. I was a member of three sportsmanís club the largest had a membership of -1200 members. There were a percentage of people that brought magnum rifles to sight in days for deer season. Their general rational was more power represented better killing power.

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