Pros and Cons of the .45 GAP


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EdLaver
August 27, 2010, 12:08 PM
Thinking about a new Glock 38 for carry, what are your thoughts on this cartridge for CC? Currently I go between several choices for CCW:

Glock 29
Citadel 1911 compact
Bersa .380 Thunder
Taurus Slim 9mm

Actually thinking about dropping the two smaller calibers on the list. I'm a big guy (6'3, 255lbs) and I like carry big calibers. The .45 GAP always intrigued me, but I don't know anyone who owns one. So, other than internet info I have no other knowledge other than fondling one at a gun show and liking the feel and compactness.

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Strahley
August 27, 2010, 12:38 PM
For what it's worth (probably not much) here are my two cents

G38 - Great size (love the G19 style frame), but I'm not a fan of .45 GAP. Round for round, yes the caliber is fine, no problems there. I don't like the capacity/size ratio of the GAP Glocks. If I'm taking a gun that big, I want more than 8+1 rounds. A G19 will give you 15+1 of 9mm, and a G23/32 will give you 13+1 of .40 or .357 SIG. For me, having a .45 isn't that important (I'm not one of the sheep who think .45 is the only viable choice) so I'd rather have a good mix of caliber/capacity

G29 - Too fat for MY likings, and I don't want to carry 10mm. It's overkill for self defense, and cases have been lost because a lawyer convinced the jury that 10mm is too powerful for an honest person, and they were just out looking to blow somebody away

1911 Compact - I've tried 3 different ones (Para, Citadel, Kimber) and all 3 gave me tons of problems, even after the "break in" period. Two of them couldn't even feed FMJ reliably. I will never own anther one, however YMMV. They are also too heavy for my likings, for a CCH option. They don't feel any lighter than a full size 1911, so I would rather carry a full size if I wanted to carry a 1911. I will say that when they did function right, they were pretty accurate and easy to shoot

Bersa .380 Thunder - no experience on that for me

Taurus Slim 9mm - no personal experience, but a friend of mine has one that he loves. Wish I could say more about it. I do know that Taurus seems to have spotty/random quality control, so make sure if you get one to give it a honest test before you carry it. FWIW I have a Taurus TCP (micro .380) and it has been flawless through about 350 or so rounds. Different animal, but same maker

CamoCustom
August 27, 2010, 12:39 PM
I dont know much about this round, But I do know a hockey buddy of mine, Also FL State Trooper, said their dept. just switched to this format.

1KPerDay
August 27, 2010, 01:10 PM
Always seemed gimmicky/silly to me. I wager in a few years it'll be about as popular as .357 SIG (that is to say, flash-in-the-pan). I could be wrong though.

zhyla
August 27, 2010, 01:16 PM
The .45GAP is solely for people who need a compact round but are too irrational to realize that 9mm will do the job just fine. If you're one of those people then this is the round for you.

joe_security
August 27, 2010, 01:30 PM
Numerous State Police have adopted Glocks in this chambering.

mljdeckard
August 27, 2010, 01:37 PM
I still think that the .45 GAP is a solution looking for a problem. It allows for loading a full-power .45 load into more compact frames than the ones that take .45 ACP. But if you are a larger than average guy, it probably means you have.....larger than average hands as well, it's not like you have trouble getting your hand around any gun. I wouldn't see the point at all.

gofastman
August 27, 2010, 01:37 PM
The .45GAP is solely for people who need a compact round but are too irrational to realize that 9mm will do the job just fine. If you're one of those people then this is the round for you.
I agree to a finite point, but I would change the underlined part to "just as poorly"

I still think that the .45 GAP is a solution looking for a problem. It allows for loading a full-power .45 load into more compact frames than the ones that take .45 ACP. But if you are a larger than average guy, it probably means you have.....larger than average hands as well, it's not like you have trouble getting your hand around any gun. I wouldn't see the point at all.

I agree here too, maybe the OP should look at the .45ACP in one of Glocks SF frames.

Strahley
August 27, 2010, 01:53 PM
And I agree, if you're a bigger dude with bigger hands, you don't need something chambered in GAP. It was made so that people with smaller hands could still use a standard size gun with a .45 loading. It was not created with the thought of "oh lets make something for a big dude with big hands!"

EdLaver
August 27, 2010, 01:54 PM
Just for clarity, I own all 4 of the guns listed in the 1st post. I switch between them for carry options. I carry the G29 most of time with the Citadel coming in 2nd. The Citadel is slimmer than the G29 but much heavier. The G29 is very wide and prints sometimes. The two others mentioned, the Taurus and Bersa are mainly for summertime carry when I am in cargo shorts. I guess my main logic is wanting a more compact, lighter .45

All 4 guns have been totally reliable, the Citadel stays loaded with PowRball ammo which feeds flawlessly. But for some reason, when I do carry the Taurus and Bersa, I feel undergunned and thats when I started researching the G38 and thinking about trading both the Taurus and Bersa towards it.

FLAvalanche
August 27, 2010, 01:59 PM
I have a Springfield XD in .45 GAP. I bought it because I like goofy calibers and wanted to give the GAP a try.

I can't see any Pros to the GAP. It doesn't do anything other calibers don't.

As far as Cons go? It can be hard to find depending on area. It's usually overpriced when you do find it. A box of .45 GAP costs us the same as a box of .45 ACP from our supplier.

It's not a bad round. It's accurate, it feeds reliably. But it doesn't stand up and scream "HERE I AM!" either. Now, if Springfield would have chambered the EMP in GAP like it was originally supposed to be then we might have something.

ForumSurfer
August 27, 2010, 02:03 PM
The Citadel is slimmer than the G29 but much heavier.

Really? On a scale, my commander 1911 is much heavier than my g19. But when carried iwb on a good belt, I really don't notice a difference. The thickness makes me "feel" the glock a little more.

I'd vote for a g30sf just so you'd have some ammo commonality.

David E
August 27, 2010, 02:52 PM
The main reason for the .45 GAP was to put a .45 caliber into a 9mm size frame. Thereby allowing folks with small to medium hands to get a good grip on the gun.

This would not apply to a larger than average guy, so what are you gaining? Nothing.

The G-38 slide is as wide as the G-29 slide, so you're not cutting out much bulk width-wise, but you're giving up ammo capacity for no good reason.

I would suggest you consider the Glock 21, 21-SF and Glock 30. Also, the M&P .45 and Springfield's XD and XD-m, all in .45.

You're a big guy and in proper holsters, it's easy to hide and carry them.

Azb
August 27, 2010, 04:42 PM
Why limit yourself to a caliber that's only found in Glock dealers? You can find .45 acp anywhere...

I'm 6'2" 215lbs, so I'm a little smaller than you.

This is what I carry:

http://i34.tinypic.com/2hrzts9.jpg

15+1 .45 acp. Screw GAP.

Az

Mags
August 27, 2010, 05:02 PM
What load of calber wars crap in this thread.

The only draw back to the 45 GAP vs any other round save for the 10mm is ammo availability.

Strahley
August 27, 2010, 05:17 PM
Or the fact that you get crappy capacity with GAP when compared to other guns the same size

Runningman
August 27, 2010, 05:59 PM
If a guy wants to shoot 45 cal slugs, the Glock 38 seems like a decent choice to me. I don't own a Glock 38 but have shot one. I liked it myself, The grip feels better than the G30, G21 because it is shorter. There is something to be said for better ergonomics with the G19, G23, G32 style frame. I seemed to be able to shoot the GAP fairly decent. Better than a Glock 21 I used to have.

Georgia State Highway Patrol, Florida Highway Patrol, New York Highway Patrol, Pennsylvania Highway Patrol, South Carolina Highway Patrol are now issuing the 45 GAP.

zhyla
August 27, 2010, 06:20 PM
The only draw back to the 45 GAP vs any other round save for the 10mm is ammo availability.

Availability, cost, and only Glock makes a gun for it.

legion3
August 27, 2010, 07:03 PM
Well I have both the 45 GAP and 45 ACP Glocks. In fact I have very model with the exception of the G36.

The biggest con of the 45 GAP is ammo avaialbility, even on line.

The ammo is hard to find and expensive but I like the platforms (Particualy the G39).

I like my G21SF and 30SF too but they are big fat guns.

I am willing to tinker with the GAP because I have plenty of 9mm's and 45ACP's so I can afford to play around with an oddball round that has great glock platforms.

legion3
August 27, 2010, 07:41 PM
Glock 26 10+1 of 9mm (12+1 with a +2)

Glock 27 9+1 of 40 (10+1 with a +2)

Glock 39 6+1 of 45 GAP (7+1 with a +2)


I tend to agree that the capcity of the G38 and 37 seem lacking, but in the sub compact arena the difference in practical self defense numbers is not that crappy.

Deaf Smith
August 27, 2010, 08:09 PM
The 26 or 27 (I have 'em both) are the way to go since it does not matter the size, they serve the same purpose as full time carry guns. Both have plenty of power and firepower.

Actually they have as much as a full duty service pistol had not 30 years ago (1911, S&W 3906, Browning HP, Smith 6906, etc...

And the little Glocks are quite accurate once you take into consertation the short sight radius.

Deaf

BCCL
August 27, 2010, 09:31 PM
How is ammo availability for the .45 gap?

I only know of one gun shop or store that stocks it within 45 miles of where I live.

ugaarguy
August 28, 2010, 02:20 AM
Pros - Same grip size as the 9mmP/.40 S&W /.357 SIG Glocks in a round that mimics .45 ACP. Makes for a seamless transition, training wise, from one of the above caliber Glocks (add .380 ACP outside the US) to a .45 caliber round.

Cons - Wider slide, so it wont work with your existing holsters for Glocks in above calibers. Nearly identical size offerings with same or more capacity in much more available .45 ACP from S&W and Springfield Armory. Same capacity as much thinner 1911s chambered in .45 ACP in various sizes with very similar heights & lengths to corresponding Glock models. Kahr offers compacts & subcompacts with only one less round of .45 ACP for a pistol nearly identical in height & length, but much thinner than, corresponding Glock models. Thinner slide, and more capacity (significantly more in standard & compact frame) in above caliber Glocks of corresponding grip size.

Put another way, it doesn't offer a significant advantage, to me, over .45 ACP offerings from other manufacturers; nor Glock's own offerings in other calibers. On the other hand, (aside from ammo pricing & availability issues) the caliber itself & guns it's offered in aren't a significant disadvantage versus the alternatives listed above either.

In short: There's nothing particularly great about it, and - again, if ammo were more available - there wouldn't be anything particularly bad about it either.

YMMV, and all that good stuff.

Full Metal Jacket
August 28, 2010, 02:26 AM
Numerous State Police have adopted Glocks in this chambering.


about 4 have, and the depts that have adopted it are encountering problems procuring the amount of ammo they need at their price point. check out the police officer's forums.

Full Metal Jacket
August 28, 2010, 02:29 AM
G29 - Too fat for MY likings, and I don't want to carry 10mm. It's overkill for self defense, and cases have been lost because a lawyer convinced the jury that 10mm is too powerful for an honest person, and they were just out looking to blow somebody away


can you reference 1 case in point?

postalnut25
August 28, 2010, 02:34 AM
While I'm a decent sized guy, I have small hands. I like the GAP round because ballistically it is equivilent to a 45ACP, but packaged into a pistol that is a more managable size. The G38 has the capcity of a 1911, with a comparable round, but is much easier to grip properly.

Full Metal Jacket
August 28, 2010, 02:47 AM
CONS: glock is the only manufacturer making GAP--all others dropped GAP from their lines years ago, the ammo is more expensive than 45acp and hard to find, GAP has no +P capability, the few LE depts that have adopted it have either dropped it or are about to because they can't get enough ammo....etc.

PROS: 0

basicblur
August 28, 2010, 03:05 AM
I wager in a few years it'll be about as popular as .357 SIG (that is to say, flash-in-the-pan).
I thought 'bout both the 45 GAP and 357 SIG, but I wasn't gonna be an early adopter-got to determine if they're going to survive before taking the plunge.

I did some research on the 45 GAP XD-after checking gun dimensions, round count, ballistics etc, I crossed it off the list-I just didn't get it?
This doesn't even take into account ammo (un)availability.
I've heard XDs are/are not still available in 45 GAP-don't know, but don't really care at this point.

AFA the 357 SIG, field reports sound good, and it looks like enough agencies have/are adopting it that I went ahead and took the plunge (actually have 2 of 'em now).

I'm guessing the 357 SIG is going to continue to grow-the 45 GAP, not so much.

Quiet
August 28, 2010, 05:18 AM
As long as LE/Mil/Gov supports a particular cartridge, that cartridge will not die out.
Within the last three years, five (GA, SC, NY, PA & FL) state law enforcement agencies have adopted the .45GAP.

HS Produkt is still manufacturing the HS2000 in .45GAP.
Springfield Armory is choosing not to import them into the USA.

Sellior & Bellot is now producing .45GAP ammo due to .45GAP pistol sales in the EU.

Full Metal Jacket
August 28, 2010, 05:21 AM
this will surely save the GAP from oblivion.

S&Wfan
August 28, 2010, 06:28 AM
This round should have the same long-term success as the .41AE and the .45Deltonics I suspect.

LawofThirds
August 28, 2010, 07:33 AM
.45 GAP has no advantages over .45 ACP (and quite a few disadvantages).
Over the other mid 30,000-40,000 PSI rounds it offers even less.

It's a poor solution to a question that not only wasn't asked, but would require a complete failure in the logical process to be asked in the first place.

.41AE is one of those rounds that just missed the boat by a whisker. A little sooner or the FBI picking it up or any of a multitude of other boosts and it could have been a success. Kinda like how .41 mag is a great round that just is too....middle of the road.

GMHAYESUSN
August 28, 2010, 01:05 PM
I would go for the g-29 personally im a die hard fan of 10mm shot. Had a chance to shoot a leo's .45 gap (not sure of the model) and wasnt to impressed i prefered the .357 sig cartrige myself when shooting side by side

Zerodefect
August 28, 2010, 01:17 PM
Check out the Glock 23 instead.

More capacity than the Gap and same slim size. .40 is close enough to .45gap perfromances anyway.

JohnBiltz
August 28, 2010, 07:49 PM
Harold Fish, and keep in mind this was not an urban setting. It happened in a remote hiking trail in the wilds of an Arizona mountain pine forest where dangerous animals could be reasonably expected to be encountered.

conw
August 28, 2010, 08:27 PM
Actually they have as much as a full duty service pistol had not 30 years ago (1911, S&W 3906, Browning HP, Smith 6906, etc...

This is poor logic even though I agree with the conclusion (which I infer is that you are saying "It's enough for most people"). Think about it; you could pick a point anywhere in history and say "They used _____ (insert weapon/platform/etc here) and it was good enough then." The thing is, until something is 100% effective and foolproof, improvements will be made continually, so the obvious counter-question to your logic is, "Why did they upgrade to higher capacity guns?" If it stands to reason that "If it's good enough for LEO, it's good enough for oneself," one must take into account that good enough is extremely relative, and that police/LEO/mil have upgraded every time a new "best" (in their eyes) came out.

The bow and arrow completely revolutionized combat and was state of the art at one time. Nothing is ever good enough just because it's the best around. This is doubly and self-evidently true if something ONCE was good enough because it was the best thing going AT ONE TIME but no longer is.

Thatguy686
October 4, 2010, 04:07 PM
ok so heres whats wrong with the op u mentioned glock i love glocks but half the people who are downing the round are saying it cause its glock only if gap was available in every single other brand it would be in the top 3 of calibers i have a g37 and it is amazing im 6'1 240 and i conceal the full size 37 it having the slim grip makes alot of differance in not printing also in being able to control the recoil much more it feels like a 9 or a 40 but has the same power as a 45 and if u look at the ballistics if u get rounds under 200 gr then it will be better performing than the acp in under 200 grain bullets but the 230 grain the acp has a little better performance i shoot the 185 grain gold dots and ive shot them into armor to see the mushroom and its nice u cannot go wrong with the 45 gap as a ccw

Thatguy686
October 4, 2010, 04:11 PM
full metal jacket- you my friend are wrong the ammo for a 45 gap is actually cheaper than the acp if u buy over 200 rounds which i always buy 500 at one time and also there has not been a single LE agency to drop the 45 gap there are actually more picking it up right now and also the marines are slowly switching to the 45 gap they ordered about 10,000-15,000 just a couple months ago

and to zerodefect- you are also wrong the 40 and 45gap are not near the same the 45 gap and acp have almost identical performances the 45 gap has more velocity and energy with rounds under 200 grains than the acp and the 45 acp has more velocity but not energy with 230 grain so all in all the 45 gap technically does out perform even the 45 acp

last but not least to everyone else- please before you post on something you dont know about and make it sound bad just because you dont know anything about it and want your gun to sound better how bout you do some research and have a intelligent imput

The Wiry Irishman
October 4, 2010, 04:36 PM
G29 - Too fat for MY likings, and I don't want to carry 10mm. It's overkill for self defense, and cases have been lost because a lawyer convinced the jury that 10mm is too powerful for an honest person, and they were just out looking to blow somebody away

I'd love to see a cite for this, too. Especially since the 10mm is the same ballpark power as .357, a caliber people have been using to defend themselves for many, many decades.

Thatguy686
October 5, 2010, 12:24 AM
i totally agree to ^ i had not thought about it until u mentioned it that a 10mm is comparable yet still a little less than a .357magnum and the .357 and 38 special have been the most chosen round for sd for many many years

Animal Mother
October 5, 2010, 12:40 AM
I think there are very good odds that the main reason the five state law enforcement agencies adopted the 45 GAP is because Glock gave them a tremendous discount if they'd adopt that cambering.

I think the 45 GAP might have been a more popular cartridge had the AWB been renewed. You'd have a situation where the civilian market is limited to 10 rounds per magazine. In that case it would make more sense to carry a larger caliber that filled the entire magazine but did not exceed 10 rounds than it would to carry a smaller caliber (i.e. 9mm) with "neutered" magazine capacity. Of course that's assuming that most people can shoot a .45 just as well as a 9mm, and that's not as common as most people would like to believe.

harmon rabb
October 5, 2010, 10:13 AM
GAP is for people with small hands who still want a .45. Being 6'3" you don't have that problem. If you want a .45, get a plain ol' .45acp, pick your model, and enjoy actually being able to buy ammo at regular locations.

Yo Mama
October 5, 2010, 10:26 AM
I'd love to see a cite for this, too. Especially since the 10mm is the same ballpark power as .357, a caliber people have been using to defend themselves for many, many decades.


AZ. vs. Fish

Very sad case, he was justified.

Ben86
October 5, 2010, 11:56 AM
I would not buy a .45 gap because the ammo is uncommon, overpriced and only a available in a few gun models. Also, most of them have a comparatively low capacity. The cartridge itself is fine, just not all that practical in my opinion. If a hi-cap .45 is to big for someone's hands, they ought to try something slimmer with less capacity, its just that simple.

MTMilitiaman
October 5, 2010, 12:10 PM
It's overkill for self defense, and cases have been lost because a lawyer convinced the jury that 10mm is too powerful for an honest person, and they were just out looking to blow somebody away

Evidence? Case?

As for the GAP...what GAP? At least in my area, you're much more likely to find ammo and guns chambered for the 10mm Auto. The 10mm Auto certainly smokes it in terms of performance. IMO, Glock tried to fit the GAP in where there is no gap. And it's showing. If my area is any indicator, trying to find anything chambered for this cartridge or anything to put in the magazine is like having teeth pulled. It doesn't have the support in the industry to make it mainstream like the real .45 nor the performance to hold it's head above the water like the 10mm.

There are plenty of .45 ACP sub-compacts on the market right now that you shouldn't have to worry about the GAP, esp if your hands are as big as the rest of you. I say if you're looking for a Glock with a .45 caliber muzzle, just get a LoneWolf upper for your 29. Then you can swap between 10mm and .45 ACP as fast as you can field strip the pistol and put it back together--same trigger pull, same feel in the hand, and it still points the same.

Yo Mama
October 5, 2010, 01:20 PM
Evidence? Case?


(head hitting hand), again as I just stated: AZ. Vs. Harold Fish

A brief summary: He's hiking and comes across a pretty crazy unarmed guy with 2 unleashed dogs who allegedly attack Fish, and the owner then attacked Fish. He shot with a 10mm, and was convicted, eventually overturned thankfully.

Yes, it's one case, and would not have happened with a competent attorney, but you can read up on it and see that the issue of focus was disparity of force with a 10mm. :banghead:

Ben86
October 5, 2010, 02:04 PM
Yes, it's one case, and would not have happened with a competent attorney, but you can read up on it and see that the issue of focus was disparity of force with a 10mm.

That case was appalling. I guess I better not ever use my AR in 5.56 for SD. "He grabbed the biggest gun he had!" That lawyer dishonestly manipulated the simple minds of the jury by making it seem Harold Fish chose that death ray known as 10mm because of malice aforethought. How absurd. By that same token if I really am compassionate I should be carrying an airsoft gun, or maybe a rubber band gun.

Thatguy686
October 6, 2010, 03:28 AM
again people are talking about stuff that they have no clue about every gun store around me has 45 gap on hand at all times and it is actually about 3-5 dollars cheaper a box than 45 acp also the reason they made a slimmer grip is not just for people with small hands but for the ability to control recoil for a bigger caliber

Ben86
October 6, 2010, 12:22 PM
also the reason they made a slimmer grip is not just for people with small hands but for the ability to control recoil for a bigger caliber

While felt recoil is subjective, I find that a wider, hand-filling grip makes recoil softer.

rattletrap1970
October 6, 2010, 12:40 PM
Pro's: My .45 cal bullet puller will remove the heads so I can load them into a real .45
Con's: Takes time to do it.

LawofThirds
October 6, 2010, 02:30 PM
the 45 gap has more velocity and energy with rounds under 200 grains than the acp and the 45 acp has more velocity but not energy with 230 grain so all in all the 45 gap technically does out perform even the 45 acp

Not true in any way, shape or form. Most 200 grain loadings in the 45 ACP beat out the GAP loads by 50fps while the 230 grain loadings are nearly identical. That's of course ignoring the fact that .45 auto +p loadings (you know, that operate at the same pressure as the GAP) are lobbing a 230 downrange at around 950 fps. The GAP round replicates the 45 ACP in a minutely smaller case at higher pressures. So you don't have the option to step up to a full +p loading.

The Wiry Irishman
October 6, 2010, 03:00 PM
you my friend are wrong the ammo for a 45 gap is actually cheaper than the acp if u buy over 200 rounds

again people are talking about stuff that they have no clue about every gun store around me has 45 gap on hand at all times and it is actually about 3-5 dollars cheaper a box than 45 acp

That may be the case near you, but nationwide it is not. Look around online. GAP runs 3-8 dollars per box more than ACP of the same brand (ie Speer Lawman vs. Speer Lawman, WWB vs. WWB) even if you buy by the case. Component costs for the two are virtual identical, but there's no economy of scale for the GAP like there is for ACP, so it will always run more on average.

45 acp has more velocity but not energy with 230 grain so all in all the 45 gap technically does out perform even the 45 acp

The actual performance numbers aside, this is not even physically possible. With two guns firing the same weight slug, the one with the higher velocity will always have the higher energy. energy = mass * velocity ^2.

also the reason they made a slimmer grip is not just for people with small hands but for the ability to control recoil for a bigger caliber

The GAP exists so GLOCK could put something with .45 ACP performance (or try, depending on your perspective) in the same size frame they use for all their .40 and 9mm guns. Your grammar and punctuation make it hard to understand what exactly the point is you're trying to make, but it seems to me like you're implying that its easier to control recoil on guns with smaller grips regardless of hand size. That's not really the case, either. Its easier to control the recoil on guns that fit your hand, so its more likely someone with small hands would prefer the feel of a GAP Glock to and ACP Glock. And also this:

While felt recoil is subjective, I find that a wider, hand-filling grip makes recoil softer.

is true as well. A gun with a wider grip will distribute the recoil force over a larger area, thus making the recoil feel less powerful despite having the same amount of energy.

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