If EPA ever bans lead ammo, what will substitute lead? Aluminum alloy?


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sharpshooter74
August 27, 2010, 02:03 PM
Do we really need lead? Can we bypass lead?

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HGUNHNTR
August 27, 2010, 02:04 PM
There are already a plethora of copper bullets on the market, that seems the logical choice.

Legionnaire
August 27, 2010, 02:10 PM
The alternatives to lead are much more expensive. And regulations ban some of the alternatives (steel, etc.) as "armor piercing." Seems to me this is gun control by stealth.

jlott00
August 27, 2010, 02:10 PM
gun control for sure

http://www.nssfblog.com/epa-considering-ban-on-traditional-ammunition-take-action-now/
___________________________
(i would also guess the english is what Americans speak in the USA, if the indians want to take over america and call it AmeriLakota then we can all learn lakota jiberjabber...until then id say we have room but for one language)

rm23
August 27, 2010, 02:11 PM
The EPA can't do this. Don't even worry about it.

Strahley
August 27, 2010, 02:12 PM
rm23; expound?

THe Dove
August 27, 2010, 02:14 PM
See the thread in the activism section for indepth discussion.

The Dove

oneounceload
August 27, 2010, 02:20 PM
The EPA can't do this. Don't even worry about it.

The head honcho will be making her decision the day before the election. This is a VERY real threat - if it passes most gun ranges and clubs will be nothing but a memory. When your shooting costs triple or quadruple, how much are you going to be shooting. There are threads about this on EVERY gun forum - most have the article with the link to send an email - not just the EPA, but your elected officials as well

rm23
August 27, 2010, 02:24 PM
The Toxic Substances Control Act specifically exempts lead ammo.

WardenWolf
August 27, 2010, 02:33 PM
The EPA's decision would have to go before the Supreme Court because, legally, they lack the authority to regulate lead ammo. The law specifically exempts that from regulation.

StoneDog
August 27, 2010, 02:34 PM
I don't believe we can bypass lead. It will drive ammo prices through the roof, which in my opinion, is the very intent of this thinly veiled gun control attempt. There is no scientific proof that lead ammo is a real threat to wildlife (unless you are SHOOTING at said wildlife).

rm23
August 27, 2010, 02:35 PM
Read this page. It will tell you all you need to know about this issue.

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/08/26/does-epa-actually-have-authority-to-ban-lead-ammunition/

hso
August 27, 2010, 02:50 PM
They're petitioning for a rule change to include lead in spite of the specific exclusion. The petition is open for public comment before consideration. EPA will then decide based on the comments received if they have the authority to make a rule change (debatable), if the rule change is scientifically valid to make (very debatable) and if there is undue economic harm in the rule change (very certainly). If the EPA's conclusions are that they do have the authority to make the change (as opposed to asking Congress to amend the legislation behind the rule to remove the exclusion of ammunition) and there's a scientific basis to make the change AND that undue economic harm won't be done by making the change then they'll face legal challenges and an injunction as the courts then decide whether the EPA has the authority/scientific basis/minimal economic impact for a rule change that fundamentally is a change in legislation.

armoredman
August 27, 2010, 03:06 PM
Grab some lead now...
Of course, I have turned all my lead over to the recyclers as a precaution... :D
Seriously, one of the first things the Redcoats tried to was steal powder and SHOT, right? That would be ammunition, which is a part of "arms" as defined by the 2A and affirmed by SCOTUS, yes? Just curious.

hso
August 27, 2010, 07:21 PM
EPA rejected the petition in about 3 days! That's pretty definitive.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/27/epa-rejects-calls-ban-lead-ammo-fishing-tackle/

The Environmental Protection Agency has denied a petition filed by environmental activists seeking to ban lead in ammunition and fishing tackle, saying such regulation is beyond the agency's authority.

The agency's decision, announced Friday shortly after FoxNews.com published its report on the issue, sided with hunters and fishermen who had argued that the such regulations weren't allowed under the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976.

"EPA is taking action on many fronts to address major sources of lead in our society, such as eliminating childhood exposures to lead," the agency said in a written statement. "However, EPA was not and is not considering taking action on whether the lead content in hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife."

gun guy
August 27, 2010, 07:44 PM
Already some of the most expensive, best performing rifle bullets dont contain lead anyway. They took lead out of gas and cars got faster, with better gas mileage. They took lead out of paint. You can paint a room for about $12 still. Alot of duck hunting areas require steel shot now. People still seem to bag their limit of ducks. Lead has been shown to be a bad thing, thats proven. Why not do our part to keep lead out of watersheds, drinking water and food. Everytime someone suggests an improvement that is firearms related, all the old <conservatives> jump up and scream socialism. It's just change, and change is gonna happen, deal with it.
On the list of things to worry about, lead free bullets isnt very high up.

bhk
August 27, 2010, 07:48 PM
"Already some of the most expensive, best performing rifle bullets dont contain lead anyway. They took lead out of gas and cars got faster, with better gas mileage. Alot of duck hunting areas require steel shot now. People still seem to bag their limit of ducks.
On the list of things to worry about, lead free bullets isnt very high up. "

If you shoot significant amounts of ammo (recreation/competition) you may be totally forced out of the sport due to the costs. Hunting ammo may not be the biggest problem.

Mags
August 27, 2010, 07:50 PM
It is if shoot thousands of rounds a year, instead of using that box of 20 before hunting season to refamiliar yourself with your old dusty hunting rifle.

I shoot only about 500- 1000 rounds a month and that pales in comparison to some shoot over 5000 a month, non-lead ammo would be very costly.

Fat Boy
August 27, 2010, 08:55 PM
I keep wondering about the concept of buying a Ruger Old Army black powder revolver as sort of an ultimate backstop for a TEOTWAWKI scenario. I understand the need for bullets, typically? lead cast? Maybe that would shoot my idea in the foot, (pun intended :) if lead in bullets were outlawed. I guess I am thinking of the ability to "scrounge" material for melting down and casting into a bullet- a guy would still have to have a source for the caps, right?

Just thinking out loud...

Ragnar Danneskjold
August 27, 2010, 09:46 PM
Already some of the most expensive, best performing rifle bullets dont contain lead anyway. They took lead out of gas and cars got faster, with better gas mileage. They took lead out of paint. You can paint a room for about $12 still. Alot of duck hunting areas require steel shot now. People still seem to bag their limit of ducks. Lead has been shown to be a bad thing, thats proven. Why not do our part to keep lead out of watersheds, drinking water and food. Everytime someone suggests an improvement that is firearms related, all the old <conservatives> jump up and scream socialism. It's just change, and change is gonna happen, deal with it.
On the list of things to worry about, lead free bullets isnt very high up.

And every time someone suggests and "improvement" that is firearms related, Fudds let it slide as long as it doesn't hurt their ability to bag some ducks or a buck a few times a year.

Shooting activities encompass A LOT more than just hunting.

hso
August 27, 2010, 10:01 PM
Do we really need lead? Can we bypass lead?

Depends upon whether you're asking just on technical or economic ground.

Technically, yes we can easily stop using lead in bullets. Economically, no.

Al, not really suitable because of low density.

John Wayne
August 27, 2010, 10:28 PM
There are many non-lead substitutes, but aluminum alloy has to be one of the worst possible ones. Still scratching my head over why you would want to use something so ill-suited to the task.

Copper, brass, tungsten, and bismuth seem logical, if expensive, alternatives which would actually outpreform lead in most applications. Copper and brass jackets are already used on bullets, in addition to solid copper bullets. Tungsten and bismuth shot are common substitutes for lead loads for waterfowl hunting. Ammunition loaded with these rounds also costs upwards of 3x what the standard lead counterpart does.

Most any heavy metal will work, including gold and silver. The problem is expense.

Patriotme
August 27, 2010, 10:45 PM
I wonder what the threat of banning lead will do to ammo prices.
Here comes the panic buying.

rm23
August 27, 2010, 11:01 PM
I wonder what the threat of banning lead will do to ammo prices.
Here comes the panic buying.Please read hso's post at 6:21.

LibShooter
August 27, 2010, 11:06 PM
If lead in hunting ammo is causing problems (I'm doubtful) how about this compromise?

In hunting or any situation in which the shooter can't predict exactly where the round will stop, lead may be phased out.

But in "controlled" shooting (a range, for instance) lead can still be used. Indoor ranges can recycle the stuff that ends up in their backstops. Outdoor ranges would be required to control the stormwater runoff and dig up their berms every once in awhile to collect the lead.

Folks who shoot on their private property are on their honor to keep the lead under control. You know, like used motor oil. :)

Owen Sparks
August 27, 2010, 11:12 PM
I have six thousand pounds of Linotype metal. If this regulation passes... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

rm23
August 27, 2010, 11:15 PM
No compromises.

It would only be a matter of time before they'd try an all out lead ban.

Art Eatman
August 27, 2010, 11:38 PM
I have read today that the EPA denied the petition to ban lead in bullets. Part of their statement had to do with a lack of authority to make such a ban.

So, end of story, for now. Remember, this idea did not originate with the EPA; it was in a petition to them.

LibShooter
August 27, 2010, 11:58 PM
No compromises.

It would only be a matter of time before they'd try an all out lead ban.

That's exactly why we should be willing to compromise... IF lead hunting rounds really do cause problems.

Waterfowl have suffered from lead poisoning from sinkers and lead shot. I remember video of some pitiful mute swans unable to control the muscles in thier necks. They ingested lead scooping up split shot sinkers from the bottoms British streams. Those waterways have been fished for centuries, so there was plenty of lead. Fishermen in the UK compromised and found new kinds of sinkers and saved their sport.

Duck hunters in the US compromised on steel shot and saved their sport.

If our ammo is causing environmental damage we should be willing to compromise. After all, how many rounds does a deer hunter actually fire in the field in a season? Five? Even if they cost $5 a round, most hunters spend way more that that on cammo underwear and doe's urine.

Sometimes you give a little ground in one battle to win the war.

rm23
August 28, 2010, 01:28 PM
And if even a single hunter truly cannot afford to pay $5 a round? A $1,000 fine and possible jail time? No way.

When deer start digging up and eating lead bullets, making them retarded, we'll talk.

gun guy
August 28, 2010, 01:43 PM
Why is it, no matter what the issue, the <political term removed - Larry> start screaming socialism,everytime something changes? Change is going to happen, deal with it. The flintlock rifle tamed the country, every part of that style of weapon has been replaced, with an improvement, except the bullet, it's still lead. Already lithium, copper, and polymers, and other blends are showing up in bullets, and as bullets. If lead vanished off the planet, i'm sure there would still be bullets. As to price, prices go up, on everything, always have, always will, deal with that too. I have seen gas go from about .19 cents to $4.00 a gallon, and I'm driving faster, cooler, cars than I did then. You will survive change, it really isn't that hard. Now be a big boy and try not to be afraid. :D

Fremmer
August 28, 2010, 01:51 PM
Remember, this idea did not originate with the EPA; it was in a petition to them.

Yeah, and anti-gun politicians would love it if ammo were more expensive because of a completely arbitrary and silly idea without any basis in fact. Thankfully, the NRA organized against the Petition and saved us all a lot of expense to "cure" a non-existant problem that causes non-existant environmental problems.

Why is it, no matter what the issue, the old guard republicans start screaming socialism,everytime something changes? Change is going to happen, deal with it.

Hey, if you want to pay a lot more money for less accurate bullets, by all means do so (choose to to it yourself, and don't force others to make your choice), and pat yourself on the back for being "progressive". Of course, the more expensive and less accurate bullets won't affect the environment at all, but real science and practical applilcation tend to be tossed out the window in the name of "hope and change".

Mags
August 28, 2010, 02:39 PM
Gun Guy, how many rounds do you shoot a month? Remington lead free 9mm costs 38 dollars per 50. I shoot 1-250 rounds of 9mm a month. That would be 76-190 dollars in ammo per month! That is just for one caliber I shoot, that doesn't include the 3-500 rounds of 5.56 I shoot monthly or the 150 rounds or 308.

Why should I have to change my lifestyle to suit the EPA? It isn't like I am shooting in the wild at animals, I am shooting at a range that collects the lead periodically.

Gun Guy= FUDD me thinks.

LibShooter
August 28, 2010, 03:34 PM
And if even a single hunter truly cannot afford to pay $5 a round? A $1,000 fine and possible jail time? No way.

In my state, you'll pay at least $58 for hunting licenses. If you can't afford it you can't hunt.

You can't hunt deer with a .22. Centerfire guns and ammo cost more. If you can't afford them you can't hunt.

So, if the rules change and a single hunter gets priced out, I guess he can't hunt. Sorry.

Understand, I am NOT advocating a lead ammo ban. I personally believe lead rifle projectiles used in hunting present very little danger of poisoning on dry land. (Lead shot in wetlands is a different story.) However, if the science says I'm wrong, we need to be ready for compromise.

Remington lead free 9mm costs 38 dollars per 50. I shoot 1-250 rounds of 9mm a month. That would be 76-190 dollars in ammo per month! ...
Why should I have to change my lifestyle to suit the EPA? It isn't like I am shooting in the wild at animals, I am shooting at a range that collects the lead periodically.

That's where compromise comes in. If lead proves dangerous in the field, I say ban it in the field. If you shoot at a controlled range that controls and collects lead, shoot away.

It's just like diesel fuel. It's perfectly legal to pour it in your fuel tank. It's illegal to pour it in the river.

IdahoLT1
August 28, 2010, 03:45 PM
Well said Mags. I agree 100%. Even from a reloaders perspective, exclusively shooting copper bullets would put a huge strain on the wallet. Maybe to the point where the even reloaders can't afford to shoot any more.

Art Eatman
August 28, 2010, 03:52 PM
Enough of the off-topic wandering...

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