Islamist Snuff Films to Become Propaganda Weapons


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Solarian
December 11, 2003, 01:52 AM
Has anyone read this article regarding Islamists adbucting and brutally murdering Westerners on tape?

http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/m-n/marzullo/03/marzullo120903.htm

Seems like a very good reason to stay armed and aware AT ALL TIMES, regardless of the times when inconvenient. A reminder to ourselves, wives, family, and friends to be ever vigilant and to always carry! Don't complacent and think it can't happen here in the good ol' US of A.

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Denton T. Young
December 11, 2003, 02:18 AM
Thanks for the "heads up". I'll add it to the list of things I have to worry about.

Jack19
December 11, 2003, 08:24 AM
A reminder to ourselves, wives, family, and friends to be ever vigilant and to always carry! Amen to that.

Recently the Israelis arrested a Hamas member, who was also a Canadian citizen (don't get me started on the Canadians), who was training with an M16 to come here for a little target practice.

It's coming folks.

Not to hijack the thread, but here's the story....

Hamas Planned Attacks In North America [ "New York is an easy place to find Jews"]Arutz Sheva ^ | Dec 08, '03

A gag order was lifted today permitting the publication of the planned Hamas terrorist attacks by Jamal Akal, 23, from Nutzeirat in Gaza, just south of Netzarim. He was taken into Israeli custody five weeks ago. Akal was living in Canada for several years and holds Canadian citizenship.

Security officials report that he arrived in Gaza recently for what he reported was a family visit. It was learned, however, that he was finalizing plans to assassinate a senior Israeli official visiting the United States, as well as perpetrate other attacks.

Akal admitted to his interrogators that after arriving in Gaza, he met with Ahmed Wahabe, a senior Hamas terrorist from Nutzeirat, who asked him if he could assist Hamas in Canada. After Akal agreed, Wahabe instructed him to gather information via the media on any senior Israeli official who might be arriving in the U.S., and to learn as much about his itinerary as possible.

Wahabe also asked Akal to attack members of the U.S. and Canadian Jewish communities, either by shooting or by bombing their homes and/or cars. "New York is an easy place to find Jews," Wahabe said, and advised him to train with an M-16 rifle.

Wahabe also told Akal to contact people in the mosques in which he prayed in Canada, and raise funds, ostensibly for the families of suicide bombers. In actuality, however, the funds would be used for purchasing a weapon and financing his expenses in monitoring his prospective targets and in perpetrating the attacks.

Three days before Akal was due to return to Canada, Wahabe contacted him again, taught him how to use an M-16, and practiced with him near Netzarim. Wahabe also gave Akal theoretical and practical instruction in making bombs.

A high-level emergency terrorist alert was declared this morning in the Petach Tikvah/Rosh HaAyin area in central Israel, but was gradually diminished. Police believe that the terrorist or terrorists who were reportedly on their way into a Sharon-area city to perpetrate an attack have backtracked because of the high police deployment. Traffic on several highways was brought to a near-standstill, and at least one east-west road was totally closed. The police and security forces deal with some 30-40 terrorist warnings each day.

RTFM
December 11, 2003, 08:44 AM
Hey, Solarian, welcome to THR!
The more members we have, the stronger we become.
Thanks for the heads up.

RTFM

moa
December 11, 2003, 12:17 PM
Did you catch the nasty beheading tape with a knife?

Solarian
December 11, 2003, 12:51 PM
Hello all, thanks for the welcome.
Nope, haven't watched the video - just don't think I want that stuck in my brain. Just knowing that it happens is enough for me. But, I get the idea from the article and hearing from others the gruesome nature of the murder.

WonderNine
December 11, 2003, 01:12 PM
Why oh why did you have to put a link to that site.

This is the last place I'd expect to see that kind of crap.

Solarian
December 11, 2003, 01:27 PM
Wondernine, I don't quite see your point in it's being crap. Don't these Islamists want to kill every one of use? Remember what happened to Daniel Pearl? Maybe I don't understand your meaning. I just hope that the title is fair warning to anyone that would rather not consider the barbaric tactics that may be used against us. Is it true? Maybe. Is is false? Maybe. I'll just be sure to to carry a P7M13 or M8 at all times.

Derek Zeanah
December 11, 2003, 01:33 PM
You don't want to watch it. It gives you a better feel for human anatomy than you need. :(

Hard to get those images out of your head, either. There are mean people in the world -- I understand the need for firing squads, and can even understand why some would choose to execute prisoners after they're no longer useful (most aren't as nice as us), but being mean and cruel about it is just inexcusable. A bullet is more humane. :(

Derek Zeanah
December 11, 2003, 01:35 PM
Don't these Islamists want to kill every one of use?That's what I keep being told, but it's difficult to get a reliable source for the comment.

As an aside, these tapes are a wonderful incentive for troops to refuse to surrender. Better death due to high explosive or bullet than being executed on tape for some political purpose.

This'll backfire.

Sunray
December 11, 2003, 01:36 PM
"...don't get me started on the Canadians..." And? What do you know about Canadians? Where was this published? None of this has been published in Canada, because it's never been proven that this guy was involved in anything? He's never been charged with any crime. Up here you have to actually be charged with a crime before you get convicted. We like to call it 'innocent until proven guilty'. I seem to recall reading in your Constitution it's the same Stateside.
Our government, as fornicated vertically as it is, chose not to go into Iraq without UN sanction. Why do you think we should take part in US adventures when we have no forces to do so? They're all busy with peacekeeping activities that the US has consistently avoided for 40 plus years. What would possess you to think Canada should do what GW wants? You know there's a border other than the Mason-Dixon Line?
Oh and I hear the guys from our PPCLI are actually going to be allowed to accept the Bronze Stars they won in Afghanistan. You remember them? Our sniper teams that helped save an entire US platoon from being wiped out or captured by Taliban forces.

Mama06
December 11, 2003, 01:45 PM
I've seen video clips posted on other websites. A friend of ours from England came across a CD of the Chechen/Islamist and 'rent a muj' and their 'work' that was made in March of 2000. It was easy to tell that the larger portion of the murdering barbarians in that particular piece were NOT Chechen...but Arab, as they were identified and their nationalities published. It was also easy to tell that they were not soldiers by the lack of discipline exhibited, IMO.

It was definitely a propaganda piece...and definitely a wake up call to any who may think that these things just 'don't really happen'. (Believe it or not, there are some folks who still do not believe the threat is real or that the extremists actually do these things.)

The thing these folks aren't banking on is that their attempts to frighten us into surrender will most likely, IMHO, have the opposite effect. They really don't know Joe/Josephine Citizen as well as they think.

All that these videos are doing is providing us with a sort of training manual as to how to deal with them when they try to start something here.

Be ever vigilant…but do not allow the enemy to take your life while you are still living it.


On a side note, my husband was working for a hazardous chemical company last year. You probably won’t see this reported on the news; however, there have already been several attempts made by men of “Middle Eastern descent” (according to the company memo) to hijack chemical tankers by gunpoint. It is only a matter of time, IMO, before one succeeds. Please watch yourself on the highways as well.

OEF_VET
December 11, 2003, 02:04 PM
Thanks for jumping on that before I had to Sunray. As a half-breed (1/2 American, 1/2 Canuck), I get a bit upset when people start making disparaging comments about one OR the other.

Yeah, Canada decided to sit this one out, that's the Canadian governments' perogative. Like Sunray said, they don't exactly have a military the size of ours. What they do have is spread pretty thin with commitments to peacekeeping efforts around the world, including Bosnia and Kosovo, just to name two of them. Let's not forget, they did send troops to help us in Afghanistan. And let me tell you, LTC Stroughen (misspelled I'm sure) and the soldiers of 3rd PPCLI were some outstanding soldiers. They were very disciplined, well-trained, and very well-equipped. I'd go to war with them again any time.

It's only right that the Canadian governement allow those snipers to accept their Bronze Stars, they earned them. Heck, that young Corporal set a world record with his 2600 meter shot! Not even super-sniper Carlos Hathcock could brag about a shot like that.

Frank

mtnbkr
December 11, 2003, 02:17 PM
This'll backfire.

Ain't that the truth.

I almost think we should broadcast this on primtime tv so the entire country can get a good idea of what we're up against.

Chris

moa
December 11, 2003, 04:10 PM
Mamo06's comments about trucks hauling hazardous materials being hijacked reminds of a recent morning TV news program. Showed a tank car full chlorine, that was part of train, parked on an overpass four blocks from the Capital building in Washington DC.

The thrust of the program is that we are not serious about terrorist threats because we allow the railroads, at their convenience, to route train loads of hazardous materials through the nation's capital when it could be sent on another route 50 miles away in an area much less sensitive.

The war on terrorism is in many ways a farce.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
December 11, 2003, 04:50 PM
Sunray wrote:

Our government, as fornicated vertically as it is, chose not to go into Iraq without UN sanction. Why do you think we should take part in US adventures when we have no forces to do so? They're all busy with peacekeeping activities that the US has consistently avoided for 40 plus years.

US Forces have done their fair share of peacekeeping over the past 40 years, in places like Western Europe, the Sinai, South Korea, the Balkans, Lebanon, etc...

The reason why Canada lacks adequate military forces to help in Iraq is bacause the leftist anti-American government in Ottawa has cut back so drasticly and foolishly on defense spending. Today Canada is a Shameless parasite on the USA when it comes to it's national security.


What would possess you to think Canada should do what GW wants? You know there's a border other than the Mason-Dixon Line?

A little dig at Americans that ought to be beneath you. Or do you believe everything you see on CBC's anti-American comedy shows?

Jack19
December 11, 2003, 05:09 PM
Sunray, you might want to check your PMs. :D

But, Cool Hand Luke here does make interesting points.

Back on topic....

Is there anyone here who hasn't seen the Daniel Pearl video.....he was a US citizen after all.

Have the courage? http://download.consumptionjunction.com/multimedia/cj_9833.RAM

The original video posted here is a relatively old one...try these....beware they are VERY GRAPHIC

How Islamists treat those suspected of collaborating with Israel: http://www.masada2000.org/kill-collaborator.mpeg

How Chechan Islamists treat Russians: http://212.150.177.135/islam/russian2.asf

Islamist Justice: http://www.masada2000.org/impalement.asx

Grey54956
December 11, 2003, 05:13 PM
Unless you want 'the rage', I advise against watching the video. That's was one nasty piece of work.

Makes you want to set up a guillotine in Mecca. I realize that not all muslims are evil islamist hooligans, but then again, one hand washes the other. There is some serious trouble brewing on the horizon, and a certain religious persuassion should definitely be working at getting their more fanatical fringe under control before a nuclear crusade turns the worlds biggest sand trap into a massive sheet of glass. Of course, that might be a better outcome anyway.

Rage... subsiding...

Proper frame of mind... returning...

Whew, that was a close one. Almost didn't make it back.

fix
December 11, 2003, 05:20 PM
Rage is exactly what we need at the moment.

Derek Zeanah
December 11, 2003, 05:53 PM
<sigh>

Don't make the mistake of assuming these folks are representative of any particular ethnic or religious group.

Your rage is welcome; just remember that some of us on your side of the fence worship differently than you do. Don't alienate the wrong folks.

Makes you want to set up a guillotine in Mecca.Now, if you were Catholic, how would you react to the above quote if "Mecca" were replaced with "the Vatican?"

williegee
December 11, 2003, 06:00 PM
That tape has got to be one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen and having served in the first Gulf War, I got to see a lot of pretty bad stuff up close. Everyone watch your back at all times and stay safe.

Waitone
December 11, 2003, 06:07 PM
<Gag Reflex>Oh my! What have we done to cause those young men to be so angry at us. Ill feelings when repressed lead to stomach problems and other medical problems. Perhaps we can resolve our conflict with dialog. Yea, that's the ticket. . . .we'll dialog. </Gag Reflex>

Will the videos backfire? In the western world. It'll play bigtime in the Arab world.

Our islamofascist terrormonger friends ought to review US history before adopting some tactics. We've faced an eneny who loved atrocities and the associated shock value. They knew how to fight and die. They willingly went on suicide missions. They willing fought to the last man for their leader. The Japanese fought like nothing we've ever seen before. Know what? We whipped them. It was bloody, cold, calculated, butchershop work but we killed them one at a time. We suffered horendous casualties but they lost. It took a blowtorch and corkscrew to pull them out of their positions, but they died.

We are not at the mercy of these terrormongers. We can deal with them. I just wonder if our oh so politically correct society will accept the ugliness.

WonderNine
December 11, 2003, 06:22 PM
Btw, the video is Chechnya circa 1996.

greyhound
December 11, 2003, 06:42 PM
I almost think we should broadcast this on primtime tv so the entire country can get a good idea of what we're up against.

Fat chance of that! The "neutral":rolleyes: media has decided we can't even handle watching the 9/11 footage anymore.

We've got to get back to the more "important" stuff, like $29.99 DVD players at Wal-Mart and Michael Jackson....:banghead:

Lord knows we can watch all the war movies we want, but actually fight a war in the "trans-national" era, and out come the giant puppets.....

ojibweindian
December 11, 2003, 06:49 PM
Those *********s come to the 'Grove, we'll gut 'em like the deer we hunt and use their offal to feed our hogs.

Grey54956
December 11, 2003, 09:22 PM
Derek, not to turn this all religious, but if it were a Catholic terrorist beheading propaganda film, I would probably be looking to root out the bastards and martyr them for their cause.

I am Catholic, and if some radicals decide to give everyone the impression that we are barbarian headhunters, they've got to go. The reason is simple: if their behavior provokes a murder/death/kill attitude of any measureable magnitude, then it could spill over into attrocities against my kin. That is unacceptable. As I have said, one hand washes the other.

It's the same think with the Palestinian hoopla. People get all weepy when the Israelies launch a counter attack in refugee settlements and some innocent palestinians get killed. I don't feel bad at all. The Palestinians should realize that if they allow terrorist or paramilitary leaders live within their settlements, there are going to be consequences. If they would pursue a peaceful settlement, and oust the paramilitaries, then there wouldn't be a problem with the Israelies.

In general, Islamists seem to be accepted or at least tolerated by their muslim peers. They aren't taking steps to assure non-muslims that people of all faiths can peacefully coexist. The first step in that direction is the elimination of the Islamist fringe. They also need to realize that videos like this one don't make all Americans run for cover. Rather, the video makes some of us question their humanity to the point where they are perceived as inhuman non-entities and a threat to humanity in general. When you aren't facing off against humans, but rather inhuman monsters, it is easy to consider extermination as a reasonable safeguard. It isn't necessarily right, but it is a predictable reaction. That's the aforementioned "rage". And, it is a most terrifying thing to understand that the potential for such insane violence and bloodlust can be invoked, or rather provoked, so easily.

I have known a few muslims in my day. I had shared a dorm room with one in college. But, if I knew that he had something to do with this tape, I wouldn't give a second thought to putting him in a hole.

I must repeat some of the other responses to this thread. Stay safe, watch your back, and be ready.

Nightfall
December 11, 2003, 09:24 PM
I have a feeling I've seen the video being discussed before, a few years ago when I was 15 or 16. I can certainly still remember it, but I'm not about to click the link to find out. Once was enough. :p

jrhead75
December 11, 2003, 09:44 PM
They're all busy with peacekeeping activities that the US has consistently avoided for 40 plus years. So all the casualties the US Marines took in Beirut were what...tourists?

KevlarTester
December 11, 2003, 11:10 PM
Think twice, post once.

Denver
December 11, 2003, 11:36 PM
Sunray,

"Our government, as fornicated vertically as it is, chose not to go into Iraq without UN sanction."

Neither did ours. We were the only ones with the moxie to UPHOLD 14 U.N. resolutions so that the entire organization wasn't rendered inconsequential and irrelevant!!! (My apologies to the fine countries that WENT IN WITH US. Eh, Canada?)

Frankly, it would not have grieved ME one iota to see the U.N. (that den of third world potentates) shown for the farce and evil that it is!!!

(Forgive me if this has wandered from the theme of this thread.)

Higgins
December 12, 2003, 12:07 PM
Thanks for the original post.

Kind of makes me view a recent incident here in Columbus in a different light.

As briefly as I can and as reported by the local news:

Late two nights ago an Ohio State student from Iraq attacked a wealthy local auto-parts businessman at the man's home. The student was laying in wait in the man's garage with two large knives and a pistol. When the man arrived home, the student attacked him as he got out of his car.

The man and a companion fought with the student-attacker. All three men ended up receiving stab wounds and/or lacerations during the ensuing melee.

Apparently the student finally tried to escape over the seven foot tall iron gate leading to the garage, but he slipped somehow and was impaled by the thigh on one of the sharp points topping the gate. He had to be cut down by the firedepartment's "jaws of life" and was taken to the hospital.

The news showed footage from outside the home. Lots of blood. They also played portions of two separate 911 calls - one made by the man's chef who was witnessing events from inside the home and a second by the man himself while he and his companion were struggling with the intruder. Scary stuff to listen to.

I've not yet heard reported any motive or connection between the student and the businessman.


I'm not wealthy and not a likely target, but this kind of thing really catches my attention. That, and the Columbus' homicide rate reaching a 10- year high - including apparently random home invasions. I believe we are now over 100 for the year. It motivates me to get a CCW piece and pray that Gov. Taft sees the light and signs the CCW law being sent to him by the Ohio legislature.

clubsoda22
December 12, 2003, 12:41 PM
As for hamas planning attacks on north america, i was pleased to see that the security guard at my local Jewish Community Center openly carries a Beretta M9. Makes me feel a lot safer.

OF
December 12, 2003, 12:49 PM
Welcome to the turd world. Where pain, suffering, life and death have no meaning. Where brutality and evil are everyday reality from cradle to grave. Beheadings are a spectator sport and people are brutalized in front of children by laughing men.

But, really, we're all just different in our own way, and all cultures should be respected. Lets all celebrate some of this diversity. Who's to say what's really best? I mean, America is the real evil, right?

People to need to wake up and smell the blood.

- Gabe

iapetus
December 12, 2003, 02:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This'll backfire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ain't that the truth.

I almost think we should broadcast this on primtime tv so the entire country can get a good idea of what we're up against.

Chris



Mind you, that depends on what their objective is.

* Terrorist film brutal murder of Americans/ Westerners.
* Americans/ Westerners see tape, get enraged, demand retribution.
* America/ West more likely to go to war etc against countries with links/ supposed links to terrorists.
* Innocent people get killed (possibly some terrorists as well)
* Citizens of said country get enraged at US/West.
= More recruits to terrorists.

(Remember, Al Quieda etc WANTED a war in Iraq, because they thought it would get them more support).


Iapetus

warmi
December 12, 2003, 03:54 PM
Some time ago this very clip was posted on a site billed as "a resource guide for Muslim American teenagers”.

The scary part was not the clip itself but the justification and glorification of this act by young Muslim teenagers in America, who if you think about it, may be in the same school with your very own children.

More about this stuff here (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=3694)

Scary stuff ...

MicroBalrog
December 12, 2003, 05:19 PM
may be in the same school with your very own children.

Like the Muslim Israeli Arabs I was in school with? (One of them wanted to volunteer for the IDF, and a few where from a rich family that owned a restaurant chain - that gave huge discounts to IDF soldiers... need I continue?)

Quartus
December 12, 2003, 06:01 PM
That's what I keep being told, but it's difficult to get a reliable source for the comment.




It's not hard to get reliable quotes for SOME 'Islamists' calling for killing all Americans, etc. The problem is that SOME people have a bit of trouble distinguishing between SOME and ALL.

Cableman
December 12, 2003, 06:30 PM
I have seen these video's in the past and have no desire to see them again.

That said, I think everyone should see these videos and see what kind of "peacefull" religion these people are practicing. These people are the lowest form of human beings and deserve to be killed with extreme prejudice.

All I can say is I am ready to meet these scumbags and send a few of them to Allah if they try this crap around here. And I am sure there are more than enough of us here in the USA to meet and defeat this threat.

Solarian
December 12, 2003, 06:34 PM
I'd just like to hear the ALL decry the SOME. But, most ALL are curiously silent. If this happened within Christianity, I'd be screamin' from the mountain tops!

tiberius
December 12, 2003, 06:40 PM
I'd just like to hear the ALL decry the SOME. But, most ALL are curiously silent. If this happened within Christianity, I'd be screamin' from the mountain tops!

It's NOT like it's some exclusive club that controls its membership. Anyone can claim to be a Muslim....or Christain for that matter.

Solarian
December 13, 2003, 03:04 AM
Tiberius. No one is really claiming that's it's a controlled club (that's just silly), but at the very least, those of the same ilk (Muslim) should condemn these acts. And, I will condemn both those who do these barbarous murders, and those who stand silent when they should speak. As a culture, let's stop the the PC defensiveness and get real, these people will kill, they want to kill us, and I don't intend it to happen to me or my kin. I'll be alert and carry, not paraniod, but ready.

c_yeager
December 13, 2003, 03:35 AM
While the acts commited in those clips truly are horrific lets not make the mistake of thinking that Islam has exclusive rights on brutality. The events that occured in those clips are comparable to acts commited under the banner of every religion and every nation at one time or another.

WonderNine
December 13, 2003, 05:30 AM
As for hamas planning attacks on north america, i was pleased to see that the security guard at my local Jewish Community Center openly carries a Beretta M9. Makes me feel a lot safer.

I feel alot safer when I'm carrying an M9/92FS myself.

MaterDei
December 13, 2003, 07:51 AM
There have been several question whether they want to kill all Americans/westerners or only certain ones. I'll let the Koran answer that question for us. Koran 47:4-6: "When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, . . . And whoso fight for the cause of God, their works he will not suffer to miscarry; He will vouchsafe them guidance, and dispose their hearts aright; And he will bring them into the Paradise, of which he hath told them. An infidel is defined as any non-Muslim.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not painting all Muslims with the same broad brush. However, Islam is painted with the brush that is the Koran.

MaterDei

Derek Zeanah
December 13, 2003, 09:56 AM
You know, if you're going to quote scripture, at least have the integrity to quote it. Is it ok for me to skip a few hundred words or so when quoting old testament?

47:004:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."Fight hard, have no mercy, until your enemy is broken, then ..."

Is that good military guidance (fight with all your heart, and focus your attack where the enemy is weakest (the neck)), or bad military guidance? How about the reference to "generosity or ransom until the war" is resolved?

An infidel is defined as any non-Muslim.You sure about that? I mean, might it be possible that the reference wasn't to "people of the book" (Jews and Christians), but instead to the pagan arabs who were at war with Mohommad at the time? The same folks who'd defiled the sacred mosque at Mecca? Remember: this dates from the 1st year of the Hijrah, and the muslims were still under threat of extinction by Meccan pagans.

Let's not forget these, since we're doing the whole "quote the quran" thing:002:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

002:217
They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

002:0062
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

005.082
Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.I know it's cool to say "all muslims want to kill us," and "none of those dirty stinking islamists have spoken out against" whatever. It ain't true. You can't back it up. You also completely ignore people like me who offer comments on these issues here in a forum you frequent.

I know you believe it. That don't make it so.

sasnofear
December 13, 2003, 10:04 AM
really, i mean if you look in the bible im sure you will find plenty!!!! of examples of non-christians being slaughtered for their crimes, so you can really say anything about the koran

pax
December 13, 2003, 11:00 AM
Off Topic.

pax

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