Am I missing something... Why are AR rifles so expensive?


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stsimons
August 28, 2010, 01:24 AM
:scrutiny::what::cuss:

The smilies above pretty much sum it up for me. What gives?

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LRS_Ranger
August 28, 2010, 01:28 AM
Because people will pay that much? Really though, for the bottom line rifle, it's not much more than the $500 you will pay for many other guns. It's when you get into the add on's and doo dads that you get into the serious coin. "Tactical" is kinda a niche market anyway, so expect to pay accordingly...

Rail Driver
August 28, 2010, 01:28 AM
AR for $500? :what:

Lowest I've seen is right around $750...?

stsimons
August 28, 2010, 01:32 AM
It also seems like if you want anything other than a .223 the price goes up another $300...

HOOfan_1
August 28, 2010, 01:35 AM
It also seems like if you want anything other than a .223 the price goes up another $300...

except .22 LR

Z-Michigan
August 28, 2010, 01:37 AM
AR-15 type rifles are extremely INexpensive if you consider the amount of machining and metallurgy that goes into making them. Because they are standardized and sold in huge numbers, mass production has driven costs way down. The uncommon variants and larger caliber offerings cost more because there is far less economy of scale.

I don't have the source handy but remember reading that when the AR-15 was first designed, only 6 (8?) countries on earth had the machining capability to do all the machining operations necessary to build it. It's not like an AKM that can genuinely be assembled in an Afghan hut over an open forge.

A better question would be, why are US-market AK clones so darn expensive considering that it only costs Izhmash about $80 to make one, and Izhmash makes about the best out there.

Hanzo581
August 28, 2010, 01:38 AM
Uh...you can get a pretty good AR for under $1000...I wouldn't consider that expensive.

ugaarguy
August 28, 2010, 01:39 AM
I'm with Z-Michigan. Why are they so expensive compared to _____? Fill in the blank, and we can give you more detailed answers.

Quentin
August 28, 2010, 01:40 AM
Guns are expensive these days, look how much you can spend on a pistol.

AR prices are actually pretty good right now because supply is good. If you're in the market shop around or build one yourself, things could change again next year.

nwilliams
August 28, 2010, 01:45 AM
Are AR's expensive?

The market is flooded with AR's now that the Obama scare is over and you can buy a complete AR for $600-$800 or build one yourself for less than that.

A quality AR is still going to run you a $1,000 or more but there are still very nice AR's out there for less than that. You can buy a complete S&W M&P15 for under $900 and S&W is offering a $100 rebate or five free Pmags if you buy one, that's a smokin' deal if you ask me!

Remember that cost is only a matter or perspective. For some people anything under a $1,000 is cheap while for others anything over $500 is expensive.

LRS_Ranger
August 28, 2010, 01:46 AM
Hmm here is one for $600...

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/W.A.S.P.-Bargain-Bin-16-inch-M4-1402

R.W.Dale
August 28, 2010, 01:50 AM
In this day and age when a not too fancy rem700 can go well over $600 depending on trim, what makes you think $800 for a modular semiautomatic that features 100% drop in aftermarket parts avalibility is expensive.


Nowadays any good rifle that costs under a grand is almost by default a good deal

Sky
August 28, 2010, 02:11 AM
Like it was said before; because they can! Trigger assembly $125 for 3 little pieces of designed metal.. give me a break? Now if I had to dig in a mine for metal, then forge said metal, package and market my finished product I might change my mind?

Bovice
August 28, 2010, 02:11 AM
ARs aren't expensive at all given their capabilities. You can get one set up for "tactical" use/home defense, buy a $400 stainless bull upper and switch it to a precision rifle shooting 1 MOA or better in a matter of seconds. If you dedicate optics to a particular upper, it doesn't have to be re-zeroed either. You can have "several" rifles all with the same serial # for different purposes. Some days you might feel like shooting a scoped AR at long range, other days you might want to pop rounds at short range using your RDS.

For the casual and advanced shooter alike, no other rifle is as versatile. By purchasing the right accessories, you can make them fit just about any role. Be it caliber, barrel length/profile, rifling twist rate, ANYTHING-it can be just as you want it.

ScratchnDent
August 28, 2010, 03:32 AM
Considering what a mid-range 1911 or a new Smith & Wesson revolver costs, ARs don't look that expensive.

Acera
August 28, 2010, 04:52 AM
ARs are like divorces.



They are expensive because they are worth it:neener:

jmr40
August 28, 2010, 07:10 AM
If you don't pay the sucker prices in many gunshops they are very reasonable. You can buy a S&W AR through CDNN now for $699 with a $100 rebate. There are many online shops selling AR's at very reasonable prices.

Ruger Hawkeyes are $650, A Remington 700 CDL will run around $700 as will a Winchester 70. Even a Savage is over $550 now.

Claymore1500
August 28, 2010, 07:48 AM
you can get a pretty good AR for under $1000...I wouldn't consider that expensive.

I.M.O. that statement pretty much says it all.

I believe that all guns are way over priced, but when the maker puts the rediculous high price on anything and people rush out and buy it, the price sticks and becomes common.

most people accept the fact that it's the cost of doing bussiness, I see the prices of some items (not just guns) that have gone up 1000% in 10 or so years, how many people have seen the same hold true in thier income, (not many).

I now own a ruger SBH that my late father bought new in the 70's for less than $200.00, my brother has his colt series 70 that cost not much more, both companies have upgraded thier methods and equipment to reduce the manufacturing costs, and yet with each upgrade, the price went UP, and the quality went DOWN.

OK, rant over, just needed to get that off my chest.

Hatterasguy
August 28, 2010, 09:45 AM
I don't think they are that expensive. More so since they have to pay US labor rates, if they could outsource to China you would see AR's in the $500 range.:D;)

SFTitan
August 28, 2010, 09:51 AM
Hmm here is one for $600...

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/W.A.S.P.-Bargain-Bin-16-inch-M4-1402
That's got to be a .22 for that price

aka108
August 28, 2010, 10:27 AM
The rifles are that expensive because that is what people are willing to pay for them. With all the CNC type machine work and mold injected plastic parts I would think production cost per unit is probably less that product liability insurance per unit. I you gut out a AK, they ought to be priced right up there with a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun. Nothing complicated. All stamped parts for the most part and millions made.

Onmilo
August 28, 2010, 10:34 AM
I think the Beretta 92A1 I handled that was priced at $672.00 is expensive for a handgun, even if it does come with three magazines.
$672.00 for a new in the box AR15 isn't expensive IMHO.

briansmithwins
August 28, 2010, 10:37 AM
The farther you get from the standard design the more you pay.

You can pay $300 for a 2 stage, super-duper trigger assembly, or use the one that comes in the lower part kit ($60 for every pin, spring, and small part that goes in the lower receiver) and that works perfectly adequately.

Standard pistol grip is included in the lower parts kit, or you can pay $80 for a gel-molded pistol grip that has a storage spot for your heart medicine.

ARs have more optional stuff than Barbie.

BSW

HGUNHNTR
August 28, 2010, 10:47 AM
Expensive is a relative term, it doesn't mean the same thing to any two people. It really boils down to how much you want it.

jpwilly
August 28, 2010, 10:53 AM
Parts may be made by machines but people still operate the system for mfg, QC, packaging, etc. These people IMO deserve to recieve a paycheck for their work and I"m more than happy to purchase AR rifles for the current rates.

After all the price of the rifle isn't what I think about when running these machines...it's the high price of ammo and reloading components! Ha ha...These AR's are FUN, Accurate, High Quality products made by my fellow Americans thankfully. If $700 bucks for a decent AR seems like a lot of money than you can et an inexpensive single shot for $150 or used lever action for $250...

benEzra
August 28, 2010, 10:57 AM
I now own a ruger SBH that my late father bought new in the 70's for less than $200.00, my brother has his colt series 70 that cost not much more, both companies have upgraded thier methods and equipment to reduce the manufacturing costs, and yet with each upgrade, the price went UP, and the quality went DOWN.
You're forgetting the fact that Federal Reserve policies have deflated the currency since then. A dollar in 2010 is worth waaaaaaaay less than a dollar in 1970 or 1975 was, so it takes a lot more of them to buy the same thing. Don't forget that a brand new car or pickup truck in the 1970's would have probably have cost $5K to $10K, a nice house might have cost $30K or 40K, and making $20K/yr was a lot of money.

Adjusted for inflation, guns are actually less expensive now than they've ever been, and functional quality has gone up, as far as average working-class guns go; a lot more rifles will shoot 1 MOA out of the box now than in the 1950's. As far as craftsman-grade fit and finish, it can still be had if you are willing to pay through the nose for it, just like in 1950 or 1975.

Shear_stress
August 28, 2010, 01:34 PM
You're forgetting the fact that Federal Reserve policies have deflated the currency since then. A dollar in 2010 is worth waaaaaaaay less than a dollar in 1970 or 1975 was, so it takes a lot more of them to buy the same thing.

It is absolutely amazing that people don't take this into account. As they say, Cokes ain't a nickel any more. That Ruger SBH, had it been bought in, say, 1979, cost the buyer $583 in 2009 dollars. Buds will ship an SBH to your dealer for $83 less than that today. If anything, guns are cheaper now than in the past.

And as for "expensive"--what does that mean anyway? Expensive by what arbitrary standard? Reminds me of the time my dad wanted to buy one of my Springfield M1As off of me: "those are kind of expensive rifles, aren't they . . . . how about five hundred bucks?" I offered it to him for free.

stubbicatt
August 28, 2010, 01:36 PM
I dunno. I remember a few years back the .mil was buying A2s for like $140 a copy with spare parts. At the same time these rifles were for sale at 6 - 10x that price for civilian copies.

I lost interest at that point.

stsimons
August 28, 2010, 01:39 PM
Hmmm... well I guess I must be in the minority around here. I usually won't spend more than about 450 for a gun (or optics for that matter). So I guess I fall into the category of "everything over $500 is expensive" crowd... I know its all relative...

mljdeckard
August 28, 2010, 01:42 PM
to yhe OP: How much do YOU think they should cost? How much can YOU build one for?

CraigC
August 28, 2010, 01:53 PM
Compared to most other guns, the basic models are quite affordable. Everything else has gone up significantly in the last few years but AR's are pretty stable. Back when you could get a good boltgun or older S&W N-frame for $400 or less, AR's were around $800. Now that those same boltguns are $600-$800 and S&W's are approaching $1000, I just bought a brand new S&W M&P15OR for $600.

stsimons
August 28, 2010, 01:55 PM
It seems like a person can build an el cheapo AR of dubious quality and reliability for around $500 or so if they use some used parts and a basic parts kit. As far as how much I think they should cost? Well... not sure, but I do think the prices seem to me to be about 2-300 more than I would reasonably expect for a gun made of wholly standardized parts and some bolt on plastic bits.

ugaarguy
August 28, 2010, 02:14 PM
I dunno. I remember a few years back the .mil was buying A2s for like $140 a copy with spare parts. At the same time these rifles were for sale at 6 - 10x that price for civilian copies.

I lost interest at that point.
Well, when you sell to the .mil (or anything .gov) you don't have to send the IRS an exorbitant excise tax per complete firearm made. The .mil is buying a single version in the tens of thousands at the time, and getting them shipped to centralized points by the truck load as well. The .mil has their own warranty & tech support (aka Armorers) too. The .mil also publishes their own manuals; and supplies their own magazines, slings, and cases.

Break that down to sending 5 or less at a time by UPS to a dealer, who's only buying 5 or less at a time, and you have to pay an excise tax on each one you make for the consumer market. Factor in that the dealer isn't usually buying 5 of the same rifle either: he wants a 20" A2 for the guy or gal who wants an AR like his or her old service rifle, a couple 1:7 twist chromed lined 16" M4geries for the guy & gal who want one like their current service rifle, a 16" std. 1:9 twist heavy bbl for the farmer / ranger who wants something handy to bust coyotes with but doesn't care about it looking like an M4, and one 20" or 24" stainless 1:8 or 1:12 twist barrel tricked out for the long range predator or varmint hunter. Now add in retail packaging, a mag or two that you have to buy from another mfr, a sling you have to buy from another mfr, and a manual you have to get printed. Keep in mind that you also have to pay a technical writer, and a photographer or illustrator, to compose your manual for the consumer market end user; rather than the .gov/.mil end user who'll get more detailed instruction in house. It can add up very quickly.

That's got to be a .22 for that price
Nope, they're 5.56. It's CMMGs bargain bin. They've been doing for several years now when supply has allowed, and it's a great deal for a mid tier AR.

Shear_stress
August 28, 2010, 02:17 PM
I dunno. I remember a few years back the .mil was buying A2s for like $140 a copy with spare parts.

A few years back . . . maybe during the Johnson Administration. Current price for the M4 is about ten times that amount with accessories (sights and mags).

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351887,00.html

Glocked-N-Loaded
August 28, 2010, 02:30 PM
I try not to think too hard about such things. To me, it is what it is.... I've got a Colt 6920. Did I feel like spending $1100 on it? Heck no, but that's how much they were. Nice things cost money, you gotta pay to play, etc etc. Trust me, if I controlled the market they would cost less than half that. As it is, Colt has the equipment, they did all the work, paid all the workers, they charge what they charge, I either pay it or don't have the AR I wanted.

Runningman
August 28, 2010, 03:03 PM
Adjusted for inflation, guns are actually less expensive now than they've ever been,Good point, I can remember looking at a new Colt AR-15 A1 20" at a Hardware store in 1973 for $299. Using the Government own inflation calculator that $299 = $1468.14 in todays dollars. I could not afford a AR-15 back than. Bought a new Remington 788 in 22-250 for $104.95 that same year.

qajaq59
August 28, 2010, 03:36 PM
I now own a ruger SBH that my late father bought new in the 70's for less than $200.00 They call it inflation. Which means that the gun is still worth $200, but your money isn't!

stchman
August 28, 2010, 03:55 PM
Because the manufacturers are getting it.

JTH
August 28, 2010, 04:15 PM
They're American made!
JT

rattletrap1970
August 28, 2010, 05:24 PM
Get your Type 03 FFL (Curio and Relic) then you will have a Dealer Discount from Brownells. You can build a pretty damn nice AR for way less than $1000.

killchain
August 28, 2010, 06:14 PM
I bought my AR right at the height of the Obama scare. Two days after he became President-elect.

I paid TOO MUCH for it. It was $1081, and it was the display model at a Gander Mountain. But it was the last one, and everyone around me was panicking. Don't you love groupthink?

For the record, it has yet to fail on me, and I've put it though some licks.

But the moral of the story is: All of us, and our friends, caused this price hike.

ugaarguy
August 28, 2010, 06:21 PM
But the moral of the story is: All of us, and our friends, caused this price hike.
Yep, and now the market has fallen to prices below pre-scare levels.

Zanad
August 28, 2010, 06:27 PM
has anyone heard of the $599 m&p-15 at CDNN?

MinnMooney
August 28, 2010, 06:39 PM
AR-15s are stamped out in record numbers for both the military and private personel so that would lead me to believe that they should get pretty cheap by now. Some mention that $1000 is cheap. Huh? Many mfg'rs are making very good bolt action, high-powered rifles for (street prices) $280 - $500. Marlin, Savage & Mossberg come to mind and there are more so why can't they make a $400 AR-15?

leadcounsel
August 28, 2010, 06:41 PM
$800 is dirt cheap for a high performance rifle!

ghostman1960
August 28, 2010, 06:59 PM
I built this one for a tad under a grand.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/DSCF0391-1.jpg

rscalzo
August 28, 2010, 08:00 PM
bought new in the 70's for less than $200.00

Back when $200 was a week's pay.

SpeedAKL
August 28, 2010, 08:12 PM
ARs are actually somewhat of a bargain compared to other military-pattern carbines sourced from or designed to be used by Tier-1 armies. Going rates are below:

A few M4-type AR-15s:
Colt LE6920 - $1250
LMT Defender -$1100
Stag Model 1 -$850
Bushmaster M4A3 - $1000
etc etc

Other carbines:
FN FS2000 - $2000
SIG 556 - $1350-1800 depending on options
Steyr AUG A3 - $1800
FN SCAR 16S - $2400
Bushmaster ACR - $2000
Robinson XCR - $1600
etc etc etc etc

50caliber123
August 28, 2010, 08:33 PM
Do politics play a role? I seem to remember companies like Hi-Point and even Century arms getting called out for having such "low-priced weapons" on the market. From a political standpoint, it may not make sense to lower the cost unless demand drops significantly. In ten years, I bet the cheapest AR's will be in the $400 range. That being said, I think that AR's are overpriced when you can get something with more history or built from better materials for the same price as a good AR.

Zerodefect
August 28, 2010, 10:52 PM
Ar's seem pretty cheap to me.

$900 for a decent plinker. $1300 for something combat grade. $1800 for one customized to fit it's user perfectly.

I don't understand why precision bolt action rifles are so expensive? A barrel, a chunk of wood, and a few trigger parts deosn't seem like $2500-3000 to me. Especially if it's hardly any more accurate than an AR15 or AR10, or loses zero every time it gets knocked around. I'd love to have a long range bolt gun but I don't undrstand them at all. Lucky for me Larue and LMt have .308 AR's out now.

migkillertwo
August 28, 2010, 11:21 PM
AR-15 type rifles are extremely INexpensive if you consider the amount of machining and metallurgy that goes into making them. Because they are standardized and sold in huge numbers, mass production has driven costs way down. The uncommon variants and larger caliber offerings cost more because there is far less economy of scale.

I don't have the source handy but remember reading that when the AR-15 was first designed, only 6 (8?) countries on earth had the machining capability to do all the machining operations necessary to build it. It's not like an AKM that can genuinely be assembled in an Afghan hut over an open forge.

A better question would be, why are US-market AK clones so darn expensive considering that it only costs Izhmash about $80 to make one, and Izhmash makes about the best out there.

well I have my doubts that it really only costs Izhmash 80$ to make one, but the reason we have to pay top dollar for those AKs is because we can't just buy them directly from Izhmash. We have to let them make some of the parts, ship them here, and let an American worker assemble it with the russian parts and some parts made in America.

Its all about whose salary you're paying.

benEzra
August 28, 2010, 11:21 PM
[AR-15s are stamped out in record numbers for both the military and private personel so that would lead me to believe that they should get pretty cheap by now. Some mention that $1000 is cheap. Huh? Many mfg'rs are making very good bolt action, high-powered rifles for (street prices) $280 - $500. Marlin, Savage & Mossberg come to mind and there are more so why can't they make a $400 AR-15?

At it's heart, an AR-15 is comparable to a bolt-action, yes---if you omit the bolt carrier, buffer, buffer springs, separate charging handle, bolt latch, adjustable stock, gas block, gas tube, disconnector, and replace the aircraft-grade-aluminum receiver with a machined steel tube.

For a given quality barrel and trigger, an AR requires a lot more machining than a simple bolt-action. FWIW, I have seen S&W M&P15's for $599 recently, and I don't see any quality bolt-actions at Walmart for under $400 or so.

12131
August 28, 2010, 11:23 PM
Expensive is in the eye of the beholder.:D

migkillertwo
August 28, 2010, 11:23 PM
That's got to be a .22 for that price

nope, that has a 5.56 Nato-compatible upper.

Z-Michigan
August 28, 2010, 11:31 PM
We have to let them make some of the parts, ship them here, and let an American worker assemble it with the russian parts and some parts made in America.

Izhmash ships the Saiga as a 100% functional complete rifle (in so-called sporter configuration). This is true for the SGL series just as for any other Saiga. What's done in the US is simply for 922(r) compliance and nothing else. You can do your own conversion for free labor and about $150 in parts if you so desire.

It's not all about who supplies the labor, it's all about who enacts a silly law that requires busy-work for compliance. And ironically created a cottage industry (larger, now) that has massively increased the interest level in military-look rifles.

Golden_006
August 28, 2010, 11:42 PM
I don't get it either. What am I missing? The original Stoner design -- as far as I know -- was to replace the m14 that fired select fire with something that fired fully auto but more accurate.

So why the heck does the semi auto version cost so much? I guess wanna be rambos are willing to pay that much hence jacking up the price.

killchain
August 28, 2010, 11:47 PM
I bought my AR right at the height of the Obama scare. Two days after he became President-elect.

I paid TOO MUCH for it. It was $1081, and it was the display model at a Gander Mountain. But it was the last one, and everyone around me was panicking. Don't you love groupthink?

For the record, it has yet to fail on me, and I've put it though some licks.

But the moral of the story is: All of us, and our friends, caused this price hike.
Oh, by the way, pics of the rifle in question.

It's a Bushmaster M4A3, 5.56mm

14.5in barrel with a 1.5in Izzy compensator, pinned on (Thanks NY)
1/9 twist, parkerized

EOTech 511, MATECH BUIS

Knight's Armament Rail system (RIS)

Surefire 660 Weaponlight

Spec-Ops "Mamba" three-point combat sling, and a "Wolf-Hook"

And a good old GI STANAG Magazine... probably an oKay. I haven't looked. But that particular magazine has been my go-to for six years, and hasn't failed me one time.

Yes. Except for the barrel and maker, this rifle is identical to the one issued to me in the Army.

Final cost: $1700ish.

Shear_stress
August 28, 2010, 11:54 PM
So why the heck does the semi auto version cost so much? I guess wanna be rambos are willing to pay that much hence jacking up the price.

So, based on your knowledge of materials, tool and die making, capital equipment such as forges and multiple-axis CNC mills, anodizing, injection molding, investment casting, chrome-lining, environmental regulations, insurance, American skilled labor pay rates, quality control . . . how much should ARs cost compared to, say, bolt action rifles of greatly simpler design and construction?

As for "wannabe rambos", please see the links I included in my previous post. The DoD pays $800 for an M4 without sights, rails, or magazines and $1300 with those items. Where is this price jacking upping you're talking about? That's right in the ball park of what semi-auto rifles cost.

People are confusing the fact that ARs cost more than they are willing to pay with the arbitrary assumption that these rifles somehow cost radically more than they should.

Matt-J2
August 29, 2010, 12:04 AM
Back when $200 was a week's pay.

Ahh, I remember those heady days back in 2003/2004. Well, my paycheck was about $200 a week, I suppose gross was a little more.

A good AR isn't more than I'm willing to pay, just a bit more than I'm realistically able without a good bit of time saving for it.

Shear_stress
August 29, 2010, 12:15 AM
A good AR isn't more than I'm willing to pay, just a bit more than I'm realistically able without a good bit of time saving for it.

Fair enough. Been in that boat often myself. At least you're not complaining that you can't get a high-precision, expensive-to-make rifle for the same price as a base model Savage bolt gun. It's a conspiracy, I tells ya!

Z-Michigan
August 29, 2010, 12:29 AM
So, based on your knowledge of materials, tool and die making, the cost of capital equipment such as forges, multiple-axis CNC mills, anodizing, injection molding, investment casting, chrome-lining, environmental/insurance/labor costs, quality control . . . how much should they cost compared to, say, bolt action rifles of greatly simpler design and construction?
***
People are confusing the fact that ARs cost more than they are willing to pay with the arbitrary assumption that these rifles somehow cost radically more than they should.

Very well stated. They are among the best values when you consider what goes into making them. Whether you want one is a completely different question.

Golden_006
August 29, 2010, 12:33 AM
So, based on your knowledge of materials, tool and die making, the cost of capital equipment such as forges, multiple-axis CNC mills, anodizing, injection molding, investment casting, chrome-lining, environmental/insurance/labor costs, quality control . . . how much should they cost compared to, say, bolt action rifles of greatly simpler design and construction?

As for "wannabe rambos", please see the links I included in my previous post. The DoD pays $800 for an M4 without sights, rails, or magazines and $1300 with those items. Where is this price jacking upping you're talking about? That's right in the ball park of what semi-auto rifles cost.

People are confusing the fact that ARs cost more than they are willing to pay with the arbitrary assumption that these rifles somehow cost radically more than they should.

Well how much are ARs now? The last time i saw one was during obama scare an AR was $1000+ . A colt was 1200 dollars. Maybe it has to do with the "assault weapons" ban here or it was obama scare.

But i know this much an AR's price is based on supply and demand and not a penny more. My Maverick 88 is made of plastic and it's cheaper than a comparable, reliable, pump shotgun made of wood and blued metal; as it should be.

Quickstrike
August 29, 2010, 01:44 AM
For a quality weapon one can depend his/her life on, what's expensive?

Wonder how long people saved up two hundred years ago for a good weapon?

Kinda makes me think the view on weapons have changed from saving up for an important necessity/tool back then, and to now, where people just complain about how much their toys costs.

ugaarguy
August 29, 2010, 02:03 AM
So why the heck does the semi auto version cost so much? I guess wanna be rambos are willing to pay that much hence jacking up the price.
The difference between the semi-auto & full auto / burst versions is one more hole in the receiver, one more cross pin, and few more parts in the fire control group. Otherwise a Colt or LMT is built 95 to 100 % of the specs of the military version (save the civvie legal 16" bbl on M4geries).

As far as wannabe Rambos, how many WWI vets bought sporterized bolt action rifles, when lever guns were still the dominant US sporting rifle, because they'd used bolt actions and become comfortable with them. The same thing happened with WWII, Korea, and early Vietnam vets buying M1 Rifles, M1 Carbines, and semi-auto M14s while the bolt action rifle had become the dominant sporting rifle in the US: They too were more comfortable those rifles which they'd trained with & carried into combat. The M16/M4 family of rifles have now been in service for over forty years. That's several generations of US Servicemen who've trained on those rifles, and many of those men & women have carried the same rifles into combat. Does the fact that I have four years of military training with an M16A2 make me a wannabe Rambo because I own a semi-auto, carbine, version of the same rifle? Does it also make countless other Veterans wannabe Rambos, because they too own a commercial version of their M16/M4 service rifle; just as every previous generation of Veterans adopted commercial or surplus versions of their service rifles?

ugaarguy
August 29, 2010, 02:11 AM
Well how much are ARs now? The last time i saw one was during obama scare an AR was $1000+ . A colt was 1200 dollars. Maybe it has to do with the "assault weapons" ban here or it was obama scare.
That was answered in several previous posts. Mid tier models are readily available $600 to $700. That's what a Ruger Mini-14 sells for nowadays too.

But i know this much an AR's price is based on supply and demand and not a penny more.
Yes, that's how all consumer goods are priced in a free market economy, not just AR-15s.
My Maverick 88 is made of plastic and it's cheaper than a comparable, reliable, pump shotgun made of wood and blued metal; as it should be.
Are you saying an AR-15 should cost less than any wood & blued steel semi-auto rifle?

scythefwd
August 29, 2010, 03:27 AM
to yhe OP: How much do YOU think they should cost? How much can YOU build one for?

That's a dubious comparison at best. What a manufacturer can do vs. what a hobbyist can do. Lowers don't have to be milled. That would be the cheapest method for a hobbyist to do it though. A lower, which handles next to no stress can be molded polymers pretty easily. 1 mold will run about 10k, but can be used to produce 1k bottoms if you have it made of the right materials. That's about 10 dollars a bottom not counting materials. Add another 10-20 on materials (the lower doesn't handle much stress except in the buffer assembly and even then it's minuscule). If you can find one anywhere near that, I'll buy it off you immediately. Barrels are more expensive. Uppers can be cast as well for the same reason that the lowers can be. A cast part can be made to very exacting standards, well exacting enough for rifle tolerances... we're not talking .00001 levels of accuracy now which is what many cnc mills can do. The only parts that are taking real stress are the barrels, the bolt face and body, and the locking lugs. Most everything else can be either cast or made out of pretty inexpensive materials. I bet the manufacturers could kick out a 350-400 dollar 1.5 moa AR in .223 an still make a profit. The scales of economy are on the manufacturers side.

On the other hand, purchasing 1 mold would be prohibitively expensive for the hobbyist, so the cheapest method of manufacture is out. Purchasing 1 of anything needed would cost more because the hobbyist isn't getting everything with a bulk discount.

mljdeckard
August 29, 2010, 07:21 AM
^^Exactly.

gun guy
August 29, 2010, 08:30 AM
The Ar-15 series rifles, carbines, etc are in big demand, that is one concern that fuels the price. For a time when the country was in a buying panic it was simple, a store has 3 ar's and 40 people waving cash, up the price,up the price again, now there are 55 people waving cash. Things have settled down some, but prices rarely drop. Depending on the make they are for sale from about $650 and up. Now is the time to buy. One little blip about gun control, coming from the top, and the next buying panic may leave selves bare.
$1,000 might seem like a bargin for an old carcano.

JTH
August 29, 2010, 11:06 AM
For those members that think $1000 price range is reasonable must make a decent living. In our present economy $1K for a gun/rifle is a lot of money to many. There are some that can afford it but many can't. So, I guess you purchase what you can afford, if not and AR, an AK for $350-$400 is the next best thing but for many this is still a lot of money for a weapon, so next best thing would be a 12 gauge pump shougun for $200 or less. Until you work your way down to a baseball bat! Better than nothing for home protection

Owen
August 29, 2010, 11:23 AM
1 mold will run about 10k

I'd guess closer to 100K for the mold. there are cross pins, and pick-outs required, and you'd want a steel tool for longevity.

Golden_006
August 29, 2010, 11:43 AM
Are you saying an AR-15 should cost less than any wood & blued steel semi-auto rifle?

Yes. I'm saying an AR at least lookslike a cheap plastic gun. All in all a Browning bar SAFARI cost 900 which is cheaper than many an AR; and at least lookslike it has some craftmanship and quality to it, fires semi-auto, same as a civilian m16 and doesn't appear to be a MATTEL toy. Again the aim of an m16 is that it fires fully auto. You want a civilian AK that does the same fine; it costs 400 dollars; a reasonable price for a gun in my view.

Also, I didn't know ARs could be had that cheap. At least in most Northeast states they are not. And are those 600 dollar ones up to military specs, or are you basically taking a chance on an unknown make? $600 is pretty big purchase for me anyway to take a chance on some fly by night manufacturer. Especially considering most have them for self defense in an emergency. A Ruger Mini sounds worth every bit worth it if what I'm saying is true.

Shear_stress
August 29, 2010, 11:49 AM
For those members that think $1000 price range is reasonable must make a decent living. In our present economy $1K for a gun/rifle is a lot of money to many. There are some that can afford it but many can't. So, I guess you purchase what you can afford, if not and AR, an AK for $350-$400 is the next best thing but for many this is still a lot of money for a weapon, so next best thing would be a 12 gauge pump shougun for $200 or less. Until you work your way down to a baseball bat! Better than nothing for home protection

I agree with you except for your first sentance. The point is not that we are madly in love with the price tag of a quality AR. The point is that there is a Grand Canyon of difference between what we want and what is. ARs cost a bit to make and wishing they were cheaper is a waste of energy.

There's come to be a perversion of the expectations of the modern consumer raised in a time of cheap credit, massive consumer debt, and--more than ever--a real lack of understanding of how things are actually made. Sorry, but we can't have everything we want, we can't have everything cheap, and we can't have everything now. Bitching about a conspiracy of greedy manufacturers rooking the poor consumer feels good but, again, is pointless. The guns I own are the result of saving and sacrificing luxuries in other areas of my life. Different people, different choices.

That's a dubious comparison at best. What a manufacturer can do vs. what a hobbyist can do. . .The scales of economy are on the manufacturers side.

Well said. However, when you change the design for cheaper manufacturing, you are getting away from what an AR is and why they cost so much to make in the first place. What you wind up with is something more akin to an Armalite AR-180/AR-180B or Kel-Tec SU-16.

If you want a quality AR you are only going to pay so little for them. That's the way it is. Whether you think the price of admission is worth it is a subjective judgement that has little to do with of why ARs cost what they cost.

peabody
August 29, 2010, 12:57 PM
you can build one for under 400 dollars, just buy used parts n' pieces.

i did.


peabody

Mags
August 29, 2010, 01:13 PM
$600 is pretty big purchase for me anyway to take a chance on some fly by night manufacturer. Yep, S&W must be a fly by night manufacturer they only been around a hundred years or so.

A Ruger Mini sounds worth every bit worth it if what I'm saying is true. There we have it, I thought that post looked like trolling from the get go.

Speaking of which where's the OP?

stsimons
August 29, 2010, 01:45 PM
I am right here... and I have made several subsequent posts so don't get your panties in a wad thinking I'm some sort of troll.

The intent of the post was to ascertain exactly why the going price for a mid level rifle made of standardized parts was around $700-$900. Deviate from the standard .223 chambering and its more like $1000.

So far the answers seems to be a combination of trends in the publics taste in guns and fear of governmental policy change coupled with high demand. It has nothing to do with the realistic costs of the rifle.

and then there are those who think is sacrilege that someone would question why an entry level gun composed of maybe $250 worth of parts that come disassembled demands a $600 price tag.

There are about 35 companies manufacturing (or just reselling) AR rifles right now. I would think that as demand wanes prices will continue to fall to more realistic entry points of around $400-450 for a basic 16in carbine in 223.

RockyMtnTactical
August 29, 2010, 02:02 PM
When you consider what you might pay for a SCAR or an ACR or a G3, the AR15 is a bargain.

Z-Michigan
August 29, 2010, 02:04 PM
It seems some here are using the logic that a car is only $1500 worth of steel, so it shouldn't cost a dime more than $2000, tops.

It is entirely legal to build your own semi-auto AR15, either from manufactured parts or from raw steel and aluminum ingots. Go ahead and try it, knock yourself out. When you make one that's the same quality and specification as a S&W or CMMG that you would happily sell for $250, let us know. Don't forget the costs of your 07 FFL, the excise tax if you're going to sell complete rifles, and some bare minimum overhead and insurance costs.

RockyMtnTactical
August 29, 2010, 02:08 PM
Actually, the AR15 is priced very well. There are no more patents on it so anyone can make it and that has kept the price down quite a bit. In order for companies to compete with each other, they have to price it where they do.

What is the cost of building one SCAR vs. an AR15? Not much. Yet, there is a substantial price difference.

Shear_stress
August 29, 2010, 02:44 PM
The intent of the post was to ascertain exactly why the going price for a mid level rifle made of standardized parts was around $700-$900. Deviate from the standard .223 chambering and its more like $1000.

So far the answers seems to be a combination of trends in the publics taste in guns and fear of governmental policy change coupled with high demand. It has nothing to do with the realistic costs of the rifle.

and then there are those who think is sacrilege that someone would question why an entry level gun composed of maybe $250 worth of parts that come disassembled demands a $600 price tag.

There are about 35 companies manufacturing (or just reselling) AR rifles right now. I would think that as demand wanes prices will continue to fall to more realistic entry points of around $400-450 for a basic 16in carbine in 223.


Nothing to do with the realistic cost of the rifle? You haven't been reading this thread closely. Your statements remind me of a cute adage I heard recently: "anything's possible if you don't know what you're talking about." So, either cite a source for that $250 figure or at least let us know when your profitable $400 AR is coming out so you can prove everyone else wrong.

All this bitching and moaning is ironic at a time when quality ARs are probably the cheapest they have ever been. Sheesh.

wally
August 29, 2010, 02:45 PM
The intent of the post was to ascertain exactly why the going price for a mid level rifle made of standardized parts was around $700-$900. Deviate from the standard .223 chambering and its more like $1000.


Maybe with a bolt action changing calibers is trivial, but for an autoloader there are a lot of dynamical issues in play that need to be addressed with engineering and testing. Change the cartridge enough to need a new mag and there is another thing you need to make further increasing your costs before you even sell a gun.

In addition to 5.56, I've AR uppers in .22lr, 9mm, .40S&W, 7.62x25, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, & 5.7x28.

The 5.7x28 really is nothing like an AR, but uses the AR lower to greatly reduce the effort in designing the gun. I consider them all to have been reasonably priced. The 9mm, .40S&W, 7.63x25 & 5.7x28 were facilitated by designing around using existing mags.

ugaarguy
August 29, 2010, 02:52 PM
There are about 35 companies manufacturing (or just reselling) AR rifles right now. I would think that as demand wanes prices will continue to fall to more realistic entry points of around $400-450 for a basic 16in carbine in 223.
How the heck is that realistic? You honestly think that a semi-automatic rifle made from a forged aluminum upper & lower receiver, with a rotating bolt breech lock mechanism should cost LESS than an injection molded polymer frame semi auto service pistol which operates off the MUCH simpler tilt breech locking principle? You think that same rifle should cost less than a comparably simple to manufacture bolt action hunting rifle, with even less metal in the receiver?

and then there are those who think is sacrilege that someone would question why an entry level gun composed of maybe $250 worth of parts that come disassembled demands a $600 price tag.
Do you have ANY clue how many parts are in an AR-15? Have you thought about how many small precision forged and milled parts go into making one? Most AR-15s will shoot 2 MOA or better out of the box. Add a $70 for a free float hand guard and you can get 1.5 MOA or better. How much will you pay for a bolt action rifle that shoots 1.5 MOA or better?

atomd
August 29, 2010, 03:46 PM
Uhh....a polymer-framed pistol from one of the more popular companies is generally $450-$600. Some are even up to $900+. Glocks in a lot of shops are priced at $550. You could get a brand new S&W AR for $50 more than a Glock after rebate. An AR has a heck of a lot more material in it and it really doesn't cost much more at all. Granted, if you want the top of the line it's gonna cost you a lot more than that....but that goes for anything. I think the AR is a pretty good deal overall.

lathedog
August 29, 2010, 07:50 PM
There are a couple trend lines converging on the AR-15 price point. Cost of metals, cost of energy, and reduction in value of the dollar. Look at any other stuff you buy and compare prices to 10 or 20 years ago.

The 5.56 AR-15 benefits from mass production, lack of patents or licensing on the basic design, over-run of many parts for military/police/securty contracts, and competition between maufacturers.

The way to get an AR type rifle to sell cheaper is to reduce machining steps, make the gun simpler. The current standard AR-15 has few stamped parts, and many parts are more complex than maybe they need to be due to aesthetic reasons (the same competition that drives price down also drives an aesthetic factor to get the buying public's attention).

There will always be a problem with getting cost down on a rifle with a high pressure cartridge and the need to have accepatable accuracy. The more a manufacturer gets off the "template", the more people will think twice about buying a rifle that has unique parts, possible issues with using standard accessories, etc.

Golden_006
August 29, 2010, 10:22 PM
Quote:
$600 is pretty big purchase for me anyway to take a chance on some fly by night manufacturer.

Yep, S&W must be a fly by night manufacturer they only been around a hundred years or so.

Smith & Wesson makes one, but it's for double to triple the amount quoted on this thread. Ruger makes one too now and it's for over 2x the cost of a Mini.





http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757785_-1_757784_757784_image#http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smith-wesson.com%2Fwebapp%2Fwcs%2Fstores%2Fservlet%2FCategoryOnlyResultsDisplayView%3FuseFilter%3D%26top_category%3D757784%26parent_category_rn%3D757784%26beginIndex%3D0%26langId%3D-1%26storeId%3D750001%26filterResults%3D%26pageView%3Dimage%26catalogId%3D750051%26pageSize%3D16%26categoryId%3D757785%26categoryId%3D757785%26identifier%3D1283130828437

Casefull
August 29, 2010, 10:25 PM
Look at what the military pays for m4s. They are not cheap even when bid on a large volume base. I am sure the bids are for more than the rifles but not as cheap as one might think.

SSN Vet
August 29, 2010, 10:43 PM
Price is relative to what the item can do for you.

When gas hit $4/gal, I heard a logger go on about how cheap gas was.... meaning that four measly dollars could cut several cords of wood, and save him days and days of labor.

I'll bet ya if you were an ethnic Tutsi guest at the hotel Rowanda on the wrong day, you'd pay much, much more than $1,000 for a straight shooting AR with a case of ammo.

ugaarguy
August 29, 2010, 10:48 PM
Smith & Wesson makes one, but it's for double to triple the amount quoted on this thread. Ruger makes one too now and it's for over 2x the cost of a Mini.
You're looking at MSRP, not street price. Street price on S&W base models is in the high $600s to low $700s - BEFORE the $100 mail in rebate. Street price on standard Glocks is $475 to $550. Again, do you really think an AR-15 is that expensive any more?

As for your Mini-14 comparison, all but the absolute cheapest AR-15s have better, higher quality barrels than Mini-14s. The DAR-15s DGI operation, versus the HEAVY M-14 based op-rod on the Mini-14 contributes heavily to the AR-15s greater accuracy. Add in the complexity to build an AR-15 versus a Mini-14, and AR-15s are looking pretty economical. I could give a rat's rear end if the gun has wood or plastic furniture if it works, and is accurate. If you must have wood though - http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=393

scythefwd
August 30, 2010, 01:03 AM
"I'd guess closer to 100K for the mold. there are cross pins, and pick-outs required, and you'd want a steel tool for longevity.
__________________"

I used to work with a guy who would have molds made. Simpler for the most part, but they would run him 10k. Your 100k might be right on, but that still only 20 a lower and upper instead of 150 and 300.

Virg461
August 30, 2010, 01:20 AM
I'm constantly amazed by folks that don't understand supply and demand. Simple economic theory. Everything costs exactly what the market will bear. No more, no less. Charge too much, no one will buy or a competitor will undercut you. If you sell out of an item, you didn't charge enough.

This is true of automobiles, DVD players, or AR-15's.

Want a real deal? Buy a milsurp. A Swiss K-31 would cost a lot more than the $200 they go for today to manufacture, but the craftsmen that built them are all probably dead by now, so production costs don't figure into the equation. MOA accuracy for $200? Yes please......for $1K I can buy five and arm all my friends.

FX
August 30, 2010, 01:36 AM
to know the price of an AR15 in Europe should help you to accept your prices...

killchain
August 30, 2010, 04:47 AM
Actually, the AR15 is priced very well. There are no more patents on it so anyone can make it and that has kept the price down quite a bit. In order for companies to compete with each other, they have to price it where they do.

What is the cost of building one SCAR vs. an AR15? Not much. Yet, there is a substantial price difference.
That's because Modern Warfare 2 kids want to buy that SCAR.

The Army doesn't, though.

*hides a snicker*

scythefwd
August 30, 2010, 05:02 AM
caseful ... Most companies up they cost when they bid on military contracts. I know some program directors that would up the cost 10-20% over estimated costs or current costs (in the case of a contract renewal) just because it was a gov contract. The military pays inflated prices for just about everything. Last I saw, they were paying almost 2k for dell PC's that were only worth about 1.5k in the civilian world. Basing a reasonable cost off of what the military pays isn't a great idea.

DustyVermonter
August 30, 2010, 06:17 AM
The prices really aren't that bad as far as AR-15's go. Hell, if you can find a decent bull whip for under a grand you'd be in good shape.

You might want to consider a slingshot, they are about 10 dollars, but I will warn you they only cost about 73 cents to manufacture so you're gonna get hosed for that other $9.27, but its a sound investment......j/k

Seriously man, there are a lot of reasons that we should feel glad that AR's are the prices they are and can even be had at this day and age with all that's going on. Ammo was getting a little out of hand but its seems to be staying tolerable for the moment.

There are plenty of people in Jamaica that would gladly trade you their families for an AR-15(just to put it into perspective), I don't even want to think of what they would do for a Glock....lol

I don't mind paying those prices as long as everyone else has to pay them, I'm just glad I don't live in a country where I have to cob together a makeshift zip-gun that I could only illegally obtain 4 .22 cal bullets for to rely on for protection.

DustyVermonter
August 30, 2010, 06:23 AM
$700 for the tool doesn't bother me, but spending $200 to shoot it for a half hour does.

Golden_006
August 30, 2010, 03:00 PM
Again, do you really think an AR-15 is that expensive any more?

No not really. Although you'd have a hard time getting one around here for that. went to GB and that is in fact the price. Went to gun shows in FLA on vacation and they were still a lot more than that. 700 for Smith and Wesson sounds very reasonable to me. Too bad I can't have one :rolleyes:

PS - wood stock ARs pictured look ugly as sin, and Ruger Mini looks like a beauty queen relatively speaking.

PPS - does having the semi-auto police one really prove anything however? I find conflicting info about the civilian one being the same gun as the m16 fully auto on account of ATF not wanting you to easily convert it

benEzra
August 30, 2010, 05:04 PM
PPS - does having the semi-auto police one really prove anything however? I find conflicting info about the civilian one being the same gun as the m16 fully auto on account of ATF not wanting you to easily convert it
Post-1986 civilian AR-15's have sufficient differences in FCG and receiver dimensions from M16's to make them difficult to convert to full auto, yes. That doesn't mean that an AR-15 is any cheaper to built than a full auto (assuming no corners are cut in materials or build quality), any more than a DOHC V8 engine with 100mm bore spacing is any cheaper to manufacture than a DOHC V8 made of the same grade of parts with 95mm bore spacing.

Civilian AR's and M16's have roughly the same number of parts, require the same level of equipment and time to manufacture, and are both more complicated than a bolt-action.

ugaarguy
August 30, 2010, 06:21 PM
PS - wood stock ARs pictured look ugly as sin, and Ruger Mini looks like a beauty queen relatively speaking.
I couldn't agree more. You just seemed like a wood & blued (or even parked/anodized) metal kinda guy from your posts. Of course, as in the case of an AR with wood stocks, just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be. :D

If you can't have one because of the state where you live, S&W does make ban state compliant models with fixed stocks, no flash hider, no bayonet lug, and ships them with a pair of ten round mags. In the 16" M4 style the model is M&P15FT as opposed to M&P15T. PM me if you want contact info for a dealer in GA who may still have some that were accidentally ordered, and probably need to be unloaded.

TonyAngel
August 30, 2010, 06:47 PM
Geez, this thread has grown and it's turning into a lesson in economics.

For what it's worth, if you want to save money on an AR, go to Bravo Company and buy bulk. I think you can get uppers for around $50 each, if you buy 50 of them. Buy enough parts to build 50 of them and I'm sure that you could have your low cost AR. What I'd like to see though is how much the other 49 would sell for. Certainly not for the cost of the parts. There's your time putting them together. The cost of the manufacturers license. Occupational license. Insurance. The cost of storing the finished product. And of course, a mark up in the cost of the parts to repay you for your money having been tied up while you were building/selling the rifles.

Personally, I spend as much as it takes to get what I want. I built this not too long ago. Nothing special, but I wanted something super accurate. I have $2100 in the barrel, trigger, stock and scope (not including the mount).
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/DSC_0007.jpg

I don't think I paid too much. Really, this thread could be entitled "Why do SCARS cost so much" or "Why do Microtechs cost so much." Not trying to be a smart ass, I just don't see why it's so hard to see the AR for what it is. It's a helluva rifle and is usually priced accordingly. Personally, I wouldn't buy a $450 AR because I'd figure that corners had to have been cut somewhere to come in at that price.

Peakbagger46
August 31, 2010, 08:28 AM
Because they have more ity bitty parts than a computer...

Sky
September 1, 2010, 11:44 AM
Good thread

oneounceload
September 1, 2010, 12:06 PM
I'm constantly amazed by folks that don't understand supply and demand. Simple economic theory. Everything costs exactly what the market will bear. No more, no less. Charge too much, no one will buy or a competitor will undercut you. If you sell out of an item, you didn't charge enough.

This is the correct answer to the original query.........

jsimmons
September 1, 2010, 01:37 PM
Most decent 1911 pistols cost more than an entry-level AR-15. Counting Springfield Custom Shop work, I paid $975 for my 1911, and paid $1100 for my AR (had I been a bit more savvy, I would have built one from scratch myself - for about $300 less).

My current AR is a S&W M&P15 MOE, but I've changed it quite a bit from stock, and I'm not done yet. It's got a different stock, pistol grip, flash hider, front and rear sights, and trigger guard, and I've added a sling adapter, a red dot sight, and a front grip that I'm about to remove (because I don't care for it not that it's installed). I just ordered a stainless miid-length barrel for it, and I'll be using that to build a complete upper. I'm not a fan of the quad-rail appearance, and see no reason to have stuff like a bipod, flashlight, flare launcher, or toilet paper dispencer hanging off the forearm of the rifle. I like my rifles slim and trim.

dshambli
September 1, 2010, 02:13 PM
Yeah, AR's are only as expensive as the market will bear. When Obama was elected, you would've been lucky to find one under 1000. Now, the market is saturated and people are broke, so for 1000 dollars you're either getting a good rifle or you're getting ripped off. If you want to see an inflated price on a rifle, look no further than the ACR. Once these things lose their novelty, I couldn't see paying more than 1300.

Sky
September 6, 2010, 12:28 AM
Military contracts! Remember the $800 toilet seats and the $500 hammers; Mil-spec cost!

ulfrik
October 27, 2010, 03:09 AM
plinker ar15 what makes it cost less . would it be a good self defense rifle?

CarbineKid
February 26, 2011, 07:58 AM
I think ARs are reasonable especially compared to the ACR and SCAR. I seen a SCAR the other day for well over $2200:what:.

crossrhodes
February 26, 2011, 08:47 AM
It's the American Way.....Greed, the freedom to make a buck and screw they neighbor. You can title it with all the fifty dollar words you want but it comes down to MONEY. I'm not saying it's bad or good it's just the way it is.

Hunterdad
February 26, 2011, 08:54 AM
I built this one for $700:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/adam11082/ar1.jpg

You can build one for $500 if you're patient and look for deals.

Birddog1911
February 26, 2011, 12:05 PM
Holy dead thread resurection, Batman! It's a zombie thread!

Justin
February 26, 2011, 02:11 PM
I head-shoot zombie threads. :)

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