Aren't (most of) you glad to live in the US??


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trooper
December 11, 2003, 10:59 AM
Hi guys,

here's an outrageous story from my home country that truly stunned me. I still can hardly believe it.

The full account is here (http://www.gkd-ev.de/ismaning.shtm), but since most of you don't understand German I've tried to translate the most important parts.

It happened on a shooting range near Munich on the 29th November. Regular training had not started yet and a couple members were sitting around in the club house.

A couple police officers entered and asked where the lanes and the emergency exit were. When the members asked what this was all about they were just told to sit down and wait, explanations would be given later.

Meanwhile a SWAT team in full gear had covered the stairs and all exits. A K9 unit and some riot cops arrived and proceeded to search the whole facility and the shooters' cars.

A newbie who wanted to check out the shooting club this evening was stopped by the police on the driveway and was asked where he was going and what he was doing here. He was so scared that he immediately turned around and drove away again.

All weapons and firearms permits were checked and one shooter who forgot his permit at home almost got into deep trouble.

In the end the police seized a couple cans, a bag of balloons and a big picture of a human silhouette as evidence (anything that is considered combat shooting is illegal for civilians unless you're a CCW holder).

The whole operation took one hour. Nobody bothered to explain the reason; the only comment was, "This is just a routine check, you should expect more of it on other ranges in the future."

The club's lawyer has already taken legal steps to let the search being declared unlawful and unconstitutional by a court in order to prohibit further harassment by the local authorities.

While I have little doubt that it will rule in the shooters' favour it does bother me to think that such things are possible here...



Regards,

Trooper

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cordex
December 11, 2003, 11:14 AM
Wow, trooper, that's scary.
In the end the police seized a couple cans, a bag of balloons and a big picture of a human silhouette as evidence (anything that is considered combat shooting is illegal for civilians unless you're a CCW holder).
Is shooting at balloons and cans considered "combat shooting" by the Polizei?

Don't think it couldn't happen here.

Mark Tyson
December 11, 2003, 11:23 AM
Shooting cans and balloons is illegal? What are you supposed to shoot at - bullseyes only? That's scary. With criminals smuggling weapons in from Eastern Europe you'd think they'd concentrate their efforts elsewhere. I guess they've been coming down pretty hard since that gun club member shot up the school in Erfurt.

bfason
December 11, 2003, 11:25 AM
This took place in Bavaria of all places, one of the most conservative states in Germany. It would have been easy to imagine this raid taking place in, say, Hesse, where the political left predominates. This is not a good sign.

Nathanael_Greene
December 11, 2003, 11:26 AM
Truly amazing.

And to answer your question, yes, I am very glad I live in the United States.

trooper
December 11, 2003, 11:26 AM
Is shooting at balloons and cans considered "combat shooting" by the Polizei?

Good question... I have no idea why it should be... :confused:

The club is IPSC only, and this stuff is often viewed with suspicion by the authorities over here. Lots of people (including more than a few shooters) differentiate between "good" olympic-style, static smallbore/BB bullseye shooting and "bad" large-bore, dynamic action disciplines.

But the bright side is growing and eventually we'll be too many... :) :)



Regards,

Trooper

trooper
December 11, 2003, 11:29 AM
I guess they've been coming down pretty hard since that gun club member shot up the school in Erfurt.

You nailed it. I'm now competing with MicroBalrog for the title of "Gun Nut Hell Occupant"...

Um, shooting cans and balloons is not illegal (unlike shooting at pictures of humans), but apparently it made the apparatchik a bit suspicious.

El Tejon
December 11, 2003, 11:29 AM
Achtung, peasant! Sounds like some parts of the U.S. Can't shoot at humanoid target in Massachusetts either.

Of course, after the Supreme Court decision yesterday, we'll be catching up fairly soon.:uhoh:

TarpleyG
December 11, 2003, 11:31 AM
"Your papers, please!"

GT

trooper
December 11, 2003, 11:40 AM
Can't shoot at humanoid target in Massachusetts either.

You know, we kinda worked around this one... we put up a human target that held bright red apples in both his hands and on his head (á la Wilhelm Tell, for those who know) and awarded points for apple hits only.

Sadly, we all proved to be pretty bad shots and accidently hit COM most of the time :o :o


Regards,

Trooper

Bill Hook
December 11, 2003, 11:47 AM
The ghosts of Himmler and Heydrich still lurk.

I'm not expecting much from a country that bans "Mein Kampf," since they obviously don't understand irony; banning ideas of any sort is wrong and it certainly hasn't kept German kids from becoming skinheads.

trooper
December 11, 2003, 11:47 AM
This took place in Bavaria of all places, one of the most conservative states in Germany. It would have been easy to imagine this raid taking place in, say, Hesse, where the political left predominates. This is not a good sign.

No, it is not. And it shows that ALL political parties (except one, to some extent) are after our guns, no matter if they're left, right or whatever.

The only difference is that the left tends to say "It's immoral and childish to own such evil machines of destruction", while the right says, "It's dangerous to own guns."

BTW Hesse is conservative now, maybe you confused it with Northrhine-Westfalia.


Regards,

Trooper

RobW
December 11, 2003, 11:49 AM
"Your papers, please!"

It's rather "Your papers, immediatly!"

I disagree with Pat Buchanan, we won't be there in 50 years, but in 20.

Gordon Fink
December 11, 2003, 11:50 AM
With criminals smuggling weapons in from Eastern Europe you’d think they’d concentrate their efforts elsewhere.…

Criminals are sneaky and hard to find. Law-abiding subjects are much easier to harass.

~G. Fink

bfason
December 11, 2003, 11:57 AM
BTW Hesse is conservative now, maybe you confused it with Northrhine-Westfalia

When I was there in the 1980s Hesse was a stronghold of the Greens and Social Democrats. How times change.....

Hkmp5sd
December 11, 2003, 12:02 PM
Aren't (most of) you glad to live in the US??
Yes, I am!

TallPine
December 11, 2003, 12:05 PM
Yes, I am very glad to live in the USA.

I am especially glad to live in one of the most free of those States.


But our federal govt (and some of the States) has (have) gone totally berserk.

We will either cease to be united or we will be a totalitarian regime within a few years.

hops
December 11, 2003, 07:08 PM
Interesting, especially the last sentence- seems at least one Police Officer in a phone call to a shooting club member, indicated that the Police officers present did not want to participate, but were ordered to by an over zealous Herr Templer.

Oh well, I can see the paranoia in Muenchen - After all the beer hall putsch started there about 80 years ago.

RobW
December 11, 2003, 07:45 PM
It's sad. Once, Bavaria was a "liberal" state where you could buy black-powder frontstuffers and cap 'n' ball revolvers without restriction. All gone! The reason as anywhere in the world:

The politicos want to have defensless sheep they can abuse.

Make someone totally dependent on you, and you have UNLIMITED POWER!

Hitler knew it, Stalin knew it, Pol Pot knew it, Saddam Hussein knew it, Ferdinand Marcos knew it, Pinochet knew it, Clinton knew it... and Bush is going the same path.

chaim
December 11, 2003, 07:51 PM
I'm not expecting much from a country that bans "Mein Kampf," since they obviously don't understand irony; banning ideas of any sort is wrong and it certainly hasn't kept German kids from becoming skinheads.
As an American I pretty much agree. Banning any ideas, no matter how wrong and ugly, is wrong. But from a European mindset it makes perfect sense (no offense to the, mostly atypical, Europeans on this board who probably think more like Americans).

On guns, and other left wing things, I live in a state (MD) that is becoming more and more European all the time:(

Ryder
December 11, 2003, 08:29 PM
Don't need a government law against such things here. Anybody and everybody makes up their own rules to control others at their whim.

My gun club has a lot of strange rules which are not against any law. One of those happens to be no shooting at anything except paper. There are enough other rules there to rule out any form of combat training. Mag limits, slow aimed fire, firing line distances.

I guess I don't see the difference other than the hazard of arrest.

goon
December 11, 2003, 09:10 PM
The only real reason that the US still hasn't given into this kind of BS is because we started as a nation of free people rather than a nation of peasants.
We wanted our freedom and we made the price so high for the British that they lost interest.
We have over 200 years of that mentality flowing through our veins, but it dwindles a little more every year.
Once we lose that attitude, we are screwed too.
But so long as just a handful of people hold out...

BowStreetRunner
December 11, 2003, 10:23 PM
im pretty glad i live in the US
despite all the problems (erosion of the constituion) its still the best and i love it, so im going to to stay and try and help it stay free
BSR

Moparmike
December 11, 2003, 10:49 PM
Tarpley said:"Your papers, please!"No no, its "Sie papieren, bitte."

Someone else said "papers immedeatly!" which is (i think): "Sie papieren, mach schnell!!!" or something.

Oleg Volk
December 12, 2003, 02:07 AM
http://www.gulag.hu/images/uniform_4_ohrana_gulag_small.jpg "Predjavi dokumenti, blya!"

willyjixx
December 12, 2003, 02:39 AM
en anglais sil vous plait


is that russian oleg?

Oleg Volk
December 12, 2003, 02:43 AM
That was Russian for "Show documents, growl!"

willyjixx
December 12, 2003, 02:46 AM
aha~!

it was the growl part that thre me off:D

when i was in korea my roomate was from russia.................


dont ask i dont know where. last name was trotsky an he was always yackin on his phone. picked up a little bit not enough

JPM70535
December 12, 2003, 03:10 AM
Yes, I am glad every day of my life that I live in the U.S.A. In spite of all its faults and the constant erosion of the freedoms we once enjoyed, it is head and shoulders above any other I can think of. No court decision can ever negate the fundamental rights enumerated by the founding fathers in the Bill of Rights, so long as we the people stand ready to die to preserve those rights

telewinz
December 12, 2003, 05:21 AM
Always thought a person was lucky to live in the US, not "almost heaven" but it sure as heck isn't hell either.

igor
December 12, 2003, 03:03 PM
This is your resident Finn speaking.

This is the kind of stuff that we won't tolerate, ever. No matter how much EU sneaks in. We won't be banning books or insignia either.

Trooper, aren't you a Polizist yourself IIRC? Could you be raiding your fellow Schützenvereinsmitglieder next?

MicroBalrog
December 12, 2003, 03:08 PM
Maybe this (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1942) will provide inspiration...:neener:

fiVe
December 12, 2003, 03:26 PM
So glad and VERY thankful to have been born in and to live in the USA.

trooper
December 12, 2003, 05:30 PM
Hops,

I suppose it is true that the whole operation stemmed from bureaucratic ambitions on Herr Templer's (the responsible bureaucrat) side.

I know a lot of police officers who are avid shooters and great sportsmen themselves.


Igor,

you're almost right: I was in federal law enforcement (Border Police) but I quit this November to get into state police service. Unfortunately I have to complete a compulsory one-year waiting period before I can reapply for police service anywhere (fed gov doesn't like its people quitting...)

So right now I work as a plain-cloth security officer for a big shopping center (yup, I'm a proud mall ninja, and undercover, too :-) and am anxiously looking forward to next autumn when I can join the force again...

I don't think I will ever have to raid my buddies' shooting club as I fully expect this action to be declared unlawful in court. If it turns out the other way I'll go to the American embassy in Berlin and apply for political asylum because I'm a member of a persecuted minority :) :) :)


Regards,

Trooper

Chipperman
December 12, 2003, 05:31 PM
"Achtung, peasant! Sounds like some parts of the U.S. Can't shoot at humanoid target in Massachusetts either."

That is Not True! The law states that Clubs which have their own FFL cannot allow shooting at targets "that resemble a human figure". This law applies to very few Clubs in MA. If the Club does not have its own FFL, you can shoot at any target you want.

Unfortunately, a lot of the MA Gun laws are misunderstood and Myths get perpetuated on the Web.

Another popular Myth is that Hi-Caps are not allowed in MA. That is also untrue. If you have a Class A license, you can buy all the Hi-Caps you want.

T.Stahl
December 12, 2003, 05:40 PM
Well, Trooper, you surely know about Waco and Ruby Ridge. Overreaction by authorities can happen in the US as well.

But isn't the nice thing about a German shooting club that there's a fair chance that there are police officers, attorneys, public prosecutors or judges among its members? I hope so in this case. :evil:

R-Tex12
December 12, 2003, 06:10 PM
Very glad to be a Native American. Er, since I was born here, that DOES make me a native, doesn't it? :)

I think it was Ken Hamblin whose book was entitled Name a Better Country. Couldn't agree more with that sentiment.

R-Tex12

Ryder
December 14, 2003, 08:41 AM
a compulsory one-year waiting period before I can reapply for police service anywhere (fed gov doesn't like its people quitting...)

Wow, learn something new every day!

Tommorrow I would like to learn why it is prohibited to shoot at a picture because of where it's done. :confused:

trooper
December 14, 2003, 09:20 AM
Well... um, you know, it's kinda hard to explain because this particular law was written by some socialist green leftist commie legislators :)

But I'll give it a try. Unfortunately over here it is common opinion among ALL political parties, courts of law, politicians, lawyers, legal scholars (see where it's coming from?) that it is the primary function of a firearm to be used by the state to enforce the order of the law.

Besides this, guns may be used for hunting and sporting purposes. They concede that one may acquire and carry a firearm for self-defense if one can prove to be substantially more threatened by a violent attack than the average person.

Germany's firearms law is therefore based on the concept of "need". You may only get yourself a gun if you can present one of the above mentioned reasons why you need it. What you can do with your gun (once you bought it and took it home) also depends on what kind of "need" you presented to get your permit.

If you bought a gun for sporting purposes you have no "need" for self-defense-related firearms training. The reason is that they fear criminals getting advanced training and pose a greater threat to law enforcement agencies. And shooting at human pictures is considered combat training by the authorities.

Yes, it's that simple and that bad.

!! I'D LIKE TO STATE THAT I DO NOT AGREE WITH ANY OF THE ABOVE LEGAL POLICIES!! Just in case somebody misunderstood me :)


Regards,

Trooper

stevelyn
December 14, 2003, 09:39 AM
Yes I'm thankful to live in the U.S and even more thankful that I made the choice to live in the Free Republic of Alaska.:neener:

igor
December 14, 2003, 10:20 AM
trooper, more power to you. Illegitimi non carborundum.

Your description of the German way of seeing the "need" thing got me thinking. We have that too, but this principal of arms being the state's power monopoly enforcement tools that you spell out so clearly, that is not (at least explicitly) a theme in the Finnish discussion. I'll have to dig in to the history of the matter here... if I find that thinking implicit, I'll have to think through a lot of things again.

The defense training thing you got is truly a remarkable brain fart. Our acceptable "needs" list entails military reserve training so that's a non-issue... but only in practice. I wonder how our situation would be if the last war had ended differently.

trooper
December 14, 2003, 10:59 AM
BTW here are some other things that certain bureaucrats in the Ministry of the Interior wanted to outlaw but weren't successful:

point-shooting, all IPSC-related stuff, all disciplines that involve moving along a course (they stopped when they realized they were just about to kill biathlon :-), all weapons that are or were duty weapons...

Those efforts were stopped because a number of people from all major shooting associations (for whom I have a LOT of respect) put up resistance and made a lot of noise about it.

I value this resistance all the more because after the school shooting in Erfurt a lot of people in the German shooting community said, "Oh my god, we need to sacrifice some stuff so that we might not lose all of our rights."

Nutjobs.


Regards,

Trooper

Bill Hook
December 14, 2003, 01:19 PM
Give them that quote by Martin Niemoeller then. Germans, of all people, should realize the flaw of appeasement.

Balog
December 14, 2003, 04:14 PM
So, do they require you to wear little gun-shaped patches yet?

trooper
December 14, 2003, 04:46 PM
Give them that quote by Martin Niemoeller then. Germans, of all people, should realize the flaw of appeasement.

Yeah, that one has been mentioned by some of our guys.

There's a small, but committed group of people who feel that they want to do something about the current situation, a large majority who basically think, "Well, I already have all the guns I want, and they can't legally take them from me, besides this they won't dare to really piss us off," and a minority of traditional shooters who have nothing but disdain for everybody who does something different than "pure olympic-style shooting sports". The latter group is quite a problem because they have an influencial position in the largest German shooting association and would gladly sacrifice us all on the altar of political correctness.

So, do they require you to wear little gun-shaped patches yet?

Not yet, but if you're a registered firearms owner they may search your house without a search warrant if they have probable cause. It's all in the new firearms act.

Principiis obsta...


Regards,

Trooper

artherd
December 14, 2003, 06:20 PM
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There will be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - japanese admiral Yamamoto


Hell yes I'm glad to live here. (and personally account for some of those rifles :)

SWAT hitting a shooting range, were they TRYING to start a shootout? (maybe they were...)


I'm still glad to be able to tell a cop who 'asks' to search my car to "go get a warrant, I'll see you later."


Some in this country have even equated "License and registration please" to "Papers, now!" Of course you must still maintain both to legally drive, but you do NOT have to carry them on your person as per the constitution. (and despite popular belief.)

You can come and go in this country as you damn well please.

Balog
December 14, 2003, 06:50 PM
artherd: Uhhh, driving on a public road while not carrying your license to do so IS a crime IIRC. I suppose it might vary with location tho.

Moparmike
December 14, 2003, 08:02 PM
In AR, IIRC, the police can run your DL# or SSN to verify a valid current DL. It would be a good idea to have some sort of cooberating (SP?) evidence to aid you as well, like a vehicle registration or something.

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