[Topgun]

You are LOADING a 1911. Live rounds. You are going to chamber #1 by either using the slide release or pulling the slide and in either case the slide is going to slam home on a live round.

Do you:

a. Hold the trigger in the full back "pulled" position?

or

b. Keep your finger off the trigger?

If you picked "a" give yourself a star for knowing the 1911.

:)

[Blackhawk]

I don't let the slide "slam home" on a live round with any gun as a rule. The exceptions would be exigent circumstances when the muzzle is aimed at something that needs shooting. :D

[BigG]

:uhoh: Thanks for teaching me something. :uhoh:

[tiberius]

Not sure the purpose of this post. Sure the disconnector will prevent the gun from firing if a round is chambered while the trigger is held to the rear. However, just because some smiths who make dangerously light triggers recommend this technique, does NOT mean it is the "proper" way to do it for normal 1911s.

I leave my finger OFF the trigger when I chamber a round into any bottom feeder as I find that the safest way. YMMV


I don't let the slide "slam home" on a live round with any gun as a rule. The exceptions would be exigent circumstances when the muzzle is aimed at something that needs shooting.
You don't carry with a round chambered?

[cidirkona]

You need to let the slide slam home on a 1911 though...

Anyways, doesn't the holding-the-trigger back keep the sear disconnected, just as if you've just fired? There's some necesity for this I've heard on 1911 race guns where the trigger pull is so light that the impact of the slide could actually set the thing off if you didn't have the sear disconnected (trigger in).

-Colin

[Topgun]

Anyone disagreeing with the method is welcome to explain how they get their finger off the trigger so quickly between shots while firing.


:D :D :D

It is ....designed..... to be EASIER on the mechanism to have the trigger held back while the slide chambers a round.

[Desert Eagle]

How much do I know about 1911’s? Hummm, let me see. Well, I know if there weren’t any 1911’s around a lot of writers for gun magazines would be out of work cause you can’t buy a gun magazine anymore unless over half the pages are filled up with stories and pictures of’em.:rolleyes:

DE

[Rebel Gunman HK]

Ill take my "F" and keep doing it the right way. Finger off trigger until your ready to shoot. :evil:

[Dave T]

I was taught this "finger pulling the trigger" loading technique back in the early 1970s. I subsequently listened to the muzzle blast of 1911s going off on several occasions because people had their finger on the trigger when they didn't intend to shoot.

I think this is unsafe, although I recognize it may be necessary for race guns with trigger pulls under 2.5 pounds. Being the self-defense oriented person I am, I also think 1-2 pound trigger pulls are unsafe too.

As always, YMMV!

[Blackhawk]

You don't carry with a round chambered?
Non-sequitur, but I do carry with a round chambered. I ride the slide home when I load the chamber, and I don't carry a 1911. All my CCWs are DAOs.

For whatever reason (maybe something I don't remember from my distant youth), I get very nervous at the thought of letting the slide slam home on a live round even though I "know" it's "perfectly safe." :what:

[1911Tuner]

Boy, this one's been beat to death.

In a technical sense, the practice prevents hammer/sear inertial bounce
and resulting damage to the sear, and possible hammer follow issues
with a match-tuned trigger. It was standard practice in the dear dead
days before ultra-lightweight triggers were available to prevent the
trigger's inertial weight from tripping the sear. It works thus:

The slide slams home and jerks the gun forward. The trigger obeys
Newton's second law and stands still while the gun is moving. The mechanics are much the same as firing the gun by pushing the gun
forward while the trigger is blocked by a dowell rod. Most of the time,
the sear only rotates enough to clear the hammer hooks and is captured by the half-cock notch...which can be bad news for the sear's primary angle.

On a pistol that hasn't had its hammer hooks honed down to a dangerous height...and I consider .020 as marginal...has a standard mainspring, and sear spring...standard sear primary angle, and all is
mechanically sound...it's not necessary.

Is it dangerous? Not in a purely mechanical sense. Can it be? Yes,
under the right circumstances. It's not an issue during a slow-fire
bullseye match. IDPA and IPSC is a different situation, and stress is
the wild card.

During a fast-moving game stage with mandatory reload from slidelock,
the sequence...Insert mag, pull trigger, drop slide can, under stress, easily become...Insert mag, drop slide, pull trigger...except that the sequence of
practiced motions call for target aquisition after the slide drops. When the
slide sequence is rearranged, the trigger can be pulled before the muzzle is pointed downrange, or when the grip on the pistol isn't ideal. Seen it happen more than once with the pistol at low port during a reload.

I'm solidly with the "Finger Off" crowd. YMMV

Be safe!

Tuner

[Topgun]

"Bozo's Sear Shop" also recommends keeping the finger off the trigger.


:D :D :D :D

[bountyhunter]

I use the "hold back trigger" method on my comp gun, but it's definitely not good as a general rule. It's only benefit is that it prevents an "inertia" discharge which is theoretically possible if the trigger is set VERY light. The frame jumps forward as the slide hits it, the mass of the trigger tries to stay put (newtons Law) and so exerts a small force back on the disconnector which MIGHT cause an AD... to be honest, I have trouble believing this can occur considering how little mass the trigger has. I suspect AD's blamed on this were caused by the trigger finger accidentally touching the trigger as the gun lurched forward when the slide hit the frame. No proof, but it's a lot more likely.

IMO, there is a higher chance of an AD holding the trigger back because if you release the pull slightly as the gun rocks in your hand (when the frame hits) the trigger could reset and then the gun would fire. If you do this, hold the trigger very TIGHT.

[BigG]

I was being tongue in cheek with my initial post. The guys who said bogus were right on except for target grade trigger jobs.

[bountyhunter]

In a technical sense, the practice prevents hammer/sear inertial bounce

Not really. If you hold the trigger back, the disconnector slides under the sear and stays there. The sear is under it's normal spring tension as is the hammer, so as the slide moves forward the sear and hammer come together with the same forces as they always do.

BTW: during normal firing, the slide almost always cycles with the trigger pulled to the back unless your finger is so fast that you are releasing the trigger a few milliseconds after you pull it. For most of us, the slide it coming back into battery while the trigger is still back, so it's no difference to the sear/hammer set.

The slide slams home and jerks the gun forward. The trigger obeys
Newton's second law and stands still while the gun is moving. The mechanics are much the same as firing the gun by pushing the gun
forward while the trigger is blocked by a dowell rod.

That's the prevailing theory. I used to teach Physics and I sure have a lot of trouble believing it can actually generate enough force to trip the sear on any gun with a trigger above one pound. I still wonder if this is just a Boogie Man used to explain the embarrassing AD's some people get from accidentally tapping the trigger on their ultra-trick comp guns.... none of us would ever want to admit we did that.

[Sean Smith]

"Bozo's Sear Shop" also recommends keeping the finger off the trigger.

That's not the "Bozo" I see on this topic. ;)

[45R]

I'll stick to keeping my finger off the trigger as stated in one of the THREE GUN RULES!!!!!! Anything other would be a violation.

[cordex]

Finger off for me.

If I eventually own a 1911 with a two ounce trigger, then I'll change my tune.

[squibload]

I'll take the "F".

I don’t have my IPSC handbook with me, but here's how it might go...

RANGE OFFICER: “You may load and make ready”.

SQUIBLOAD: (thinking to self) “…OK, insert my 1911 magazine, pull the slide to the rear, PUT MY FINGER IN THE TRIGGER GUARD AND PULL TRIGGER TO REAR because if I don’t, the hammer might fall and cause an Accidental Discharge…”

RANGE OFFICER: “Mr. Load, you are disqualified from today’s match because of a safety violation.”


The names have been changed to protect the negligent...:D

[1911Tuner]

Not really. If you hold the trigger back, the disconnector slides under the sear and stays there. The sear is under it's normal spring tension as is the hammer.
------------------------------------
Except that the trigger being held to the rear loads the sear spring a little
more than it would in the forward position.

--------------------------------------------------
That's the prevailing theory. I used to teach Physics and I sure have a lot of trouble believing it can actually generate enough force to trip the sear on any gun with a trigger above one pound.
-----------------------------------------------------

We'll have to disagree on this point. Talk to some of the top guns and
trigger men about it. Pretty well accepted that the lighter the trigger
is, the lighter the trigger pull can safely be set. Thus the reason for that
damnable little preload spring in the older Gold Cups with a steel trigger,
and why Colt was able to do away with it when they went to aluminum triggers.

Debate is good for the soul. Carry on, lads!

[FPrice]

that I do NOT know enough. I will continue to request at least a 4 to 5 lb trigger pull on my 1911's and keep my finger off the trigger while reloading.

I will also continue to keep my 1911's muzzle pointed in a safe direction whenever I load it.

If I ever have an AD/ND while doing this, I will admit it and take my tongue-lashing(s) like a man.

[Jim K]

Hi, guys,

I am one of those who considers the "prevailing theory" correct. I have run experiments which are pretty convincing (at least to me) involving triggers of varying weights, and also blocking triggers to prevent movement. I used a gun that routinely dropped its hammer to half cock when the slide was dropped and blocked the trigger with a wedge to prevent movement. The hammer no longer dropped.

But with extremely light (way too light!) triggers, just the slide drop can jar the sear loose. (If you gather than I am not a fan of super-light trigger pulls on the M1911 type, you are correct.)

I knew of one pistol in which the "gunsmith" decided to protect the sear edge by removing the half-cock notch. He told the customer it would preserve the fine trigger pull. Needless to say, one day the gun went full auto, luckily with only 3 in the magazine. Some tests showed that the shooter had been holding the trigger, and that the sear held just long enough, then jarred off as the slide closed rather than following down.

Jim

[1911Tuner]

Jim said:
I knew of one pistol in which the "gunsmith" decided to protect the sear edge by removing the half-cock notch.


ROFL...Sounds like you've run into some of the same triggermen that I have. There's one down here in this area that's known as The Butcher.
I've spent a lotta time stoppin' hammers from followin' the slide on his
pistols. He sets the hammer hooks at .016 (!!!) Sweet triggers...'til
they hit around the 5,000 round mark, and all hell breaks loose. Exciting
stuff, but it does tend to scare the ROs and spectators. I've run into a
few of his that have the half-cock removed. Neatly done, though.
:rolleyes:

FWIW...There ain't a thing "smooth" about the cycle of a 1911 in .45 caliber.
It's a pretty violent, slam-bang operation, and things tend to bounce a lot.

Luck to ya!

Tuner

[JeffC]

Holding the trigger back when loading the chamber is just bad juju :D

Why tempt fate? Stay safer and keep your finger off the trigger while loading.....

The gun isn't likely to have an ND, but you might :eek: .

Stay safe,
Jeff

[BigG]

Take your "1911" down to Bayou country, have the witchdoctor say some words over it, shake some chicken bones at it, who knows what'll happen?

[JeffC]

BigG.....LMAO :D

[1911Tuner]

ROFL...BigG...you simply will not do.:D

[Ankeny]

I guess some of you didn't read what squibload had to say. It you load or reload in an IPSC match with your finger in the trigger guard you are disqualified and sent home. All IPSC and USPSA shooters load with their finger off of the trigger, period. Think about it, in USPSA the best pistols (and some of the worst) available send millions of rounds down range every year and they are never loaded with a finger on the trigger. Are we all doing it wrong?

[longtom4570]

Me personely i insert mag pull back on slide and let it go, no finger on trigger pulling it back. No need to check to see if a round chambers, because it does it using the force it was designed for.Now i know why they put those serations on the front for, so as people that don't let it slam can make sure that a round has chambered:scrutiny:

[Old Fuff]

The Army used to specify that the minimum trigger pull on a service pistol would be 6 pounds. Maybe they had a reason?

When you drop the slide on a pistol with a loaded magazine the cartridge feeding into the chamber provides some resistance to the slide and softens the shock as the gun goes into battery. For this reason a hammer follow-down is more likely if the slide isn't feeding a round.

When I have an EMPTY pistol I gently lower the slide while holding the trigger back. When I have a loaded gun I drop the slide while keeping my finger off of the trigger.

And finely, before I carry the pistol I run it through the following safety check:

1. Remove the magazine, and retract the slide to be sure the chamber's empty.

2. Engage the manual safety, and then pull hard on the trigger. Then push the safety off and see if the hammer follows down.

3. Slide the gun up my hand so the grip safety isn't depressed. Pull hard on the trigger. The hammer shouldn't follow down.

4. Cycle the slide while holding the trigger back. The hammer should not follow down.

So far after a half-century I haven't put a hole in anything I didn't intend to.

Light trigger pulls (under 4 ½ - 5 pounds) may be acceptable on revolvers. They are a foolish and unnecessary adaptation on pistols that are carried as weapons.

[Topgun]

I made an erroneous ASSUMPTION that someone may be using a 1911 for hitting TARGETS. i.e. a nice light trigger.

However, many (if not most) shooters just want to shoot a 1911. The fact that what is good for a target gun can still be "good" for a clunker is immaterial to the thread.

I forgot IPSC rules. In fact, I never knew them. Guess I kinda always figured that IPSC was an inherently less-than-optimal-safety sort of game.

Anyhow here's a link to the opinions of another fool.

http://www.stl-online.net/jls/sec2.html

and an excerpt from it:

2.8.2 How should I drop the slide on my 1911?
Here's one accepted method of loading a 1911 during a match. It is by no means the only way to do things. The starting configuration is gun empty with slide locked back.
Insert a loaded magazine.
Place your right thumb on the hammer spur, holding the hammer back.
Depress the grip safety with your left thumb.
Depress the trigger with your right index finger.
Drop the slide by depressing the slide release with your left thumb.
Place your left thumb between the hammer and firing pin.
Carefully release your right thumb, keeping your left thumb in place.
Remove your right index finger from the trigger.
Slowly remove your left thumb. Make sure the sear has engaged the hammer.
This technique is designed to prevent accidental discharges caused by the hammer following the slide when it is dropped. It also aims to preserve the trigger job by disconnecting the trigger from the sear while the slide is in motion. It is not mandatory, but it is highly suggested for safety reasons. In any case, always make sure the muzzle is pointed at the backstop when loading.
This topic generated quite a bit of heat on the list. Some feel that holding the trigger while dropping the slide is absolutely necessary to preserve the trigger job, while holding the hammer doesn't do anything. Others felt that holding the trigger will do nothing for the trigger job but holding the hammer is an important safety measure. Your mileage may vary, but the one rule to remember is always keep the muzzle pointed at the backstop when loading.

NOW LET'S GET TO A REAL TOPIC

Should the 1911 safety be engaged while twirling the gun to put it back in the holster or will the grip safety be good enough?


:D

[Correia]

This is possibly the most dangerous and stupid idea that I have ever heard. If you did this on my range I would kick you the heck off.

[Topgun]

The trigger or the spinning?

The spinning was a ..... JOKE

The trigger was not.

:confused:

[BluesBear]

Should the 1911 safety be engaged while twirling the gun to put it back in the holster or will the grip safety be good enough? NEITHER.
The correct way is for the hammer to be down and the pistol in Condition Two.
That way you can thumb the hammer back on the next fast draw. :neener:

Cowboy up y'all !

[bountyhunter]

I defer to the 1911 Tuner on all these things (since he is an actual expert). I was just pointing out that during normal firing, the slide comes forward and chambers a round with the trigger pulled to the rear since most of us regular shooters are not nearly fast enough to release the trigger before the slide returns forward. Whatever happens in the gun when you drop the slide from lockback with the trigger pulled is what happens each time you fire the gun normally. Ergo, holding the trigger tightly to the rear and dropping the slide DOES violate general safety rules, but it also operates the 1911 as it was designed to.

BTW: I never said I refused to believe a light trigger 1911 could AD from trigger inertia, just that I had a hard time believing it. If you have seen it happen, I'll believe it. I still think most of them were trigger finger "bumps". I know that "trigger inertia" will be my excuse if I ever get careless and light one off by accident... which is going to be hard to sell because I shoot revolvers most of the time.:what:

[Topgun]

The 1911 was originally designed for ....... FANNING!

Just as the recommended way to check the chamber is to press the muzzle tightly against the sternum and pull the frame toward you so you can get a clear view of the chamber, the only proper way to shoot it fast is to FAN the first shot (after having removed the disconnector of course)

..................j o k e...............a g a i n......................(just in case)

[1911Tuner]

I made an erroneous ASSUMPTION that someone may be using a 1911 for hitting TARGETS. i.e. a nice light trigger.
----------------------------------------------------

Oh wait! You meant a bullseye pistol! Well, why didn't ya say so?
I reckon if I had me a high-end match grade pistol with more money
in the trigger group and the 2 pound trigger job than a lotta guys tie
up in a whole gun, I'd be gentle with it too.

Any time that a weapon gets turned into a toy, it loses something in the
process...In this case, rugged reliability and resistance to rough handling.
I'd have to believe that if John Moses had told the U.S. government that
the pistol had to be treated gently, they would have sent him back to the
drawing board.

The thing about the 1911 is that it's been around for so long, and bastardized so often, that many have come to believe that this is how
it's always been...2 pound triggers, 2 minute accuracy, and the need to
treat a bush axe like a surgeon's scalpel. The thing was designed for men to kill other men with in faraway places...not to punch tiny groups in paper.
That it can be modified to suit the purpose is just another facet of its utility
and sound design, but that is a spinoff of its true intent.

A 6-pound trigger and the ability to slam a magazine into the well and
drop the slide without having to go through a set of complex motions
suits me just fine. I'll leave the ballet to the Bullshooters. Never could
punch paper worth a hoot nohow.:D

Cheeeeeers!

Tuner------------>out!

[VG]

How much do you know about 1911's?

You are LOADING a 1911. Live rounds. You are going to chamber #1 by either using the slide release or pulling the slide and in either case the slide is going to slam home on a live round.

Do you:

a. Hold the trigger in the full back "pulled" position?

or

b. Keep your finger off the trigger?

If you picked "a" give yourself a star for knowing the 1911.

AND did you know they fought with real Gorillas in Vietnam?

[Shmackey]

I pull the trigger on my guns (including my 1911s) only when I want a bullet to come out of the front really fast.

[Ankeny]

Topgun:

Actually, USPSA shooting has an enviable record. We have zero tolerance for sloppy gun handling, period. You screw up and you are finished. Do something really stupid and you are banned from the sport for life.

As we all know, USPSA is the hallowed home of the 1911 and USPSA shooters are constantly criticized because of the arms race. Those who love gadgets and have the financial means own some of the finest and most tricked out 1911 and/or 2011 pistols on the planet. My Open gun has an 18 ounce trigger, my limited pistol is 22 ounces. I understand where you are coming from and that's why I run a light recoil spring, never run the gun dry (no slide stop) and I don't let the slide hammer home. But pull the trigger when I load? Never.

[BluesBear]

Topgun,

I disagree with the fanning. Only the Detonics is suitable for fanning. That's why they moved the rear sight forward.

John Moses used that lovely long wide spur hammer with the short grip safety for easy, fast thumb cocking on the draw.

[George Hill]

Fanning? Please. That's for Peacemakers. The Detonics wasn't built that way for fanning.

4 Pounds. If a trigger job is done right, a proppery 4 pound trigger will feel much much lighter than what it really is. Some gunsmiths who can't do a really good trigger job cheat it by making it lighter... and if they are cheating it, I wouldn't carry it.

[Ryder]

I ride the slide home when I load the chamber

That works for me too Blackhawk. Except I do carry 1911 on occasion. The reason I do it is to prevent bullet setback. Slam home the same round into the chamber two or three times from the magazine and the overall length shortens significantly. No setback (or hollowpoint deformation for that matter) if you ride the slide.


Edit to add: Finger off the trigger of course! :D

[New_comer]

Finger always out, until ready to fire.

For me, that's absolute ;)

[gharsh]

I have basically learned to shoot by shooting in USPSA shoots. So, I never put my finger on the trigger when reloading. If I'm wrong, then I will err on the side of safety instead of what is good for the gun. Triggers are for making the gun go bang....and when it does, I will be pointing it at my target.

[Correia]

Topgun, we simo-posted. I didn't even see the joke about twirling.

However my comments on pulling the trigger while reloading stand. It is dangerous. And you may do it right hundreds of times, but I guarentee that by introducing that extra dangerous variable and breaking that primary of all safety rules, some day you will fire the gun when you didn't mean to.

My guns are fun, but they aren't toys. If I need to baby them that much then there is no way on earth that I would use them. My competition gun is my carry gun.

[Topgun]

All I ....KNOW....is that if you ever saw me on your range, you might kick everybody ELSE off.

I tend to shoot the centers out of the targets and those dang target frames just last FOREVER on my lane.

As to the safety, you would watch me drop the slide and never even NOTICE that I was holding the trigger back because it is ALWAYS pointed downrange and low center when I do it.

And you would never see me astonished at a broken sear that may have caused that slam-fire that surprised the shooter.

Soooo...... stupid I may be, but no one or no object would ever be damaged at your range.


;)

[Joe Demko]

Does the double-jointedness that allows you to pat yourself on the back like that contribute to your phenomenal shooting skills?

[Topgun]

Well, not all that much. But it does make trophy polishing take about half the time.


:D ;) :D

[Correia]

Topgun, all I can say is that someday you will have an AD doing that. And I'm not worried about the target stands either.

Do you ever do any sort of speed loading? Like under pressure fast as you can load from slide lock? If you do that then I can assure you that someday you are going to screw up your order of operation and send a bullet somewhere you didn't mean to.

There is a lot more to shooting than slow fire bullseye with itty bitty trigger pulls. The advice that you offer in this thread is dangerous and it is an accident waiting to happen.

[PCRCCW]

Hell, Im late just reading this and I just replied.........LOL :D

1911, OEM or Race gun......Ill follow the rules. No trigger.........

Shoot well.

[Topgun]

What's a ......"Peacemaker?"


Does he ever post?


:D :what: ;)

[Master Blaster]

You know I always wondered how those holes in the front of the shooting bench at my bullseye club got there along with the holes in the ceiling beam
ahead of the position.

Now I know, 2lb trigger pull, and pulling the trigger while chambering a round.

[bountyhunter]

All I ....KNOW....is that if you ever saw me on your range, you might kick everybody ELSE off.

I tend to shoot the centers out of the targets and those dang target frames just last FOREVER on my lane.
.

I think you're just jerking our chains for fun.

I guess I'm lucky, because we always have at least one shooter in our leagues who is so good that he prevents OE's (overinflated egos). I print my own targets on 8 X 11 sheets and put two bullseyes on every page just to save paper. If I send out a shot that hits more than 2" from the "X", I have the guy in the next lane come over and kick me.

I get pretty proud when I shoot a perfect score in PPC or speed shooting, but then there's that guy in PPC who shoots perfect scores 90% of the time on an old revolver with iron sights who gives me a reality check. Our last PPC open league was won by a guy who averaged 479.9/480 over ten weeks (I think he had a total of one round get into the nine ring). Second place was 479.7/480, and I came in a dismal third with about 479.3/480.

I won the open division speed shooting league, edging out the PPC winner by about a point. Bottom line, there are lots of good shooteres around and you can always find one who can embarrass you. That's why I never laugh at anybody.

[Sean Smith]

made an erroneous ASSUMPTION that someone may be using a 1911 for hitting TARGETS. i.e. a nice light trigger.

However, many (if not most) shooters just want to shoot a 1911. The fact that what is good for a target gun can still be "good" for a clunker is immaterial to the thread.

I forgot IPSC rules. In fact, I never knew them. Guess I kinda always figured that IPSC was an inherently less-than-optimal-safety sort of game.

Topgun,

Try not being an arrogant ???. It can be quite helpful. Especially when your advice is of dubious value, as in this case.

You might also want to actually know something about IPSC before talking smack about it. It might help you look like something other than a self-satisfied troll. Just a thought.

P.S. welcome to the Bozo Bin. :D

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/igc_76543/killfile3.jpg

[Ankeny]

I think almost everyone has figured out what's going on in this thread. The advice about pulling the trigger when you chamber a round is nothing new to me. I bought my first decent auto pistol, a Clark Long Slide, back in the 1970's. When I bought the gun I was advised to pull the trigger when I chambered a round and yes there were reasons for loading in that manner. The advice is archaic and no longer appropriate.

If you are worried about the sear, just ease the slide forward. As for a slide lock reload, not a problem because the round will decrease the velocity enough to prevent damage unless you are using a ridiculously heavy recoil spring.

There are two things that I object to with this thread. The first is the notion that a shooter is somehow inferior or just plain stupid if they don't load in the fashion put forth by Mr. Top Gun. The second is the fact that the practice is potentially dangerous and those who don't know any better might take Top Gun's advice and have a negligent discharge.

[BluesBear]

If you do that then I can assure you that someday you are going to screw up your order of operation and send a bullet somewhere you didn't mean to. Reminds me of the old Quick Draw McGraw cartoon where Quick Draw shoots, then points the muzzle up near his face and blows the smoke out of the muzzle.

Bang, Blow,
Bang, Blow,
Bang, Blow,
Blow, Bang :what:





geesh I just remembered that I can recall when that cartoon was NEW. :(

[1911Tuner]

:scrutiny: Hmmmmm....

Been messin' with Old Ugly for nigh on 40 years now. I've cussed'em
praised'em, cried over'em and prayed over'em...In all that time, I've
seen one sear break...ONE. A corner broke off and the only thing that gave it away was that the trigger pull changed. It got heavier. The
pistol was an old GI Colt with a 1918 manufacture date. No way of knowing if the sear was an original or taken from a parts pile during
an arsenal rebuild...but it was at least 50 years old.

Now, if we're talkin' about MIM sears, all bets are off, though I've never
had a problem with an original Colt MIM sear.

Bountyhunter! 2 inches off the mark and ya get kicked?? I'd get stomped
plum ta death over there! :D

Old Fluff brought up a very good point. The feeding and chambering operation slows things down a lot as the slide goes to battery, and
the more rounds in the magazine, the more it slows it down because
there's more drag on the slide. Hammer/sear bounce is less likely to happen on a slidelock reload when the magazine is topped off.

There's a small but growing school of thought that a super-slick ramp and throat job is actually detrimental to the pistol's service life because there's
less resistance to the slide's speed and momentum as it goes to battery.
Lower barrel lug and slidestop pin take a heavier pounding than on a gun with an old-style "Hardball" throat. The rule: "Every change has an effect on something else." applies here too. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Slick ramp and throat job on a carry gun...Yes. On a heavy-use range
beater...maybe not such a good idea. What say you Fluff and Keenan?

Logic please. Emotions can cloud our judgement on such questions.

Cheers!

Tuner

[BigG]

Hi Tuner! a super-slick ramp and throat job is actually detrimental to the pistol's service life because there's less resistance to the slide's speed and momentum as it goes to battery.

This probably has some truth to it. The old narrow GI throats were calibrated for hard ball and the wide throats on latter-day commercial Colts & clones are for the lead shooters and wunderkugel fans.

I really don't believe in over sanctification of Mr. Browning (his MGs are only so so, imho) as everything man made can be either improved or screwed up by other men, but I think the .45 Automatic Pistol is about as close to perfect as he got. The slick bullseye and cosmetic changes do not take away from the pistol's basic excellence as issued by the US Gobmint and offered by Colt's Pt. F.A. Mfg. Co.

[1911Tuner]

Hey hey mah fren! Good ta see ya!

I can agree on about everything except....(his MGs are only so so, imho)

May I introduce you to an old gal we call "Ma Deuce":D

The new-style barrel throats were born of a desire to get lead SWC
ammo to function in the gun for Bullseye competition...and I suspect
that because they shooters used reduced power ammo and recoil
springs, the throat profile aided in a reliable return to battery. The
fact that it also allowed hollowpoints to be used in the pistol was discovered much later. Bless you Lee Jurras! Wherever you are...

How many old geezers remember Super-Vel?

Hey BluesBear! I remember a time before there even WAS a "Quickdraw
McGraw".:D :p

[BigG]

Hi Tuner. Agree on the Big Fifty MG but the .30s blow chunks in comparison to the 2nd place winner's Mid Century European War Games MGs.

[1911Tuner]

Hi Tuner. Agree on the Big Fifty MG but the .30s blow chunks in comparison to the 2nd place winner's Mid Century European War Games MGs.

Ay-Greed. Those things were a slick piece of work.

[Old Fuff]

Tuner:

Extended barrel throats originated with pistolsmiths who were making “softball” guns for bullseye shooters during the late 1950's. Springfield Arsenal (the government one) introduced the throated chamber as part of their match barrel configuration around 1961. Are they necessary? All I can say is that I have guns with stock G.I. barrels that will hand-feed empty cases. It’s all in the way the magazines and extractors are set up. Does a high polished ramp and throat cause a gun to batter more? I don’t believe it does a whole lot because you still have pressure from the magazine spring and follower, and hopefully some tension from the extractor. If I was going to blame something I’d say extra-strong recoil springs would do more then a smooth, high-polish feed ramp & throat job.

People have lost sight of what the Government Model was supposed to be. It was conceived as a basic handgun, and only expected to work reliably with one particular cartridge/load/bullet combination. It did so splendidly for many years until people decided to jazz it up into the ultimate play-toy. As you pointed out, there isn’t such a thing as a free lunch, and each “modification” comes at a price. Sometimes it’s little and sometimes it’s big, but no change should be considered without reviewing all of the possible consequences. I don’t think that anyone that has a true 6-pound trigger pull is going to have the hammer follow down regardless of how they release the slide - unless the pistol has a defective or non-functional disconector. If you drop that trigger pull to 1 ½ to 2 pounds then all bets are off. I wouldn’t want to carry such a pistol holstered on my person under any circumstances.

[Sean Smith]

Sometimes it’s little and sometimes it’s big, but no change should be considered without reviewing all of the possible consequences.

Very true. People make radical changes from the original design template, don't compensate for the side-effects of those changes, then wonder why they have problems. Of course, my current Colt has changes, and changes to compensate for the changes, so who knows if I'm any more or less crazy than anybody else. After all, this sure ain't mil-spec... :p

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/igc_76543/muzzle.jpg

[Old Fuff]

Sean:

I don't mean to knock the changes you made, or the group you shot. There is nothing wrong with change - just the consequences those changes may cause.

That said, I have shot similar groups from an original, unmodified Colt U.S.G.I 1911 that was made in 1913. Properly assembled Colt's are not necessarily inaccurate. If increased accuracy was you're goal I don't see what advantage was gained over the regular configuration.

[1911Tuner]

He said:

Tuner:

Extended barrel throats originated with pistolsmiths who were making “softball” guns for bullseye shooters during the late 1950's. Springfield Arsenal (the government one) introduced the throated chamber as part of their match barrel configuration around 1961.
---------------------------------------------------
Yup.
-------------------------------
Are they necessary?
Nope
--------------------------------
----------------------------------
It’s all in the way the magazines and extractors are set up.

Been hollerin' about that for years! Ever tried arguin' with somebody who
says that a SWC throat profile and a mirror polish is NEEDED if the pistol
will be used with hollowpoints? :rolleyes: I've got a few bone-stock GI pistols that will run like a champ with Speer Flyin' Ashtrays out of GI magazines.
---------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Does a high polished ramp and throat cause a gun to batter more? I don’t believe it does a whole lot because you still have pressure from the magazine spring and follower, and hopefully some tension from the extractor. If I was going to blame something I’d say extra-strong recoil springs would do more then a smooth, high-polish feed ramp & throat job.

I completely agree, but like my grandpa used to say...
"Pennies add up to make dollars." Everything is a factor, and anything
that CAN have an effect WILL have an effect. Add to a too-heavy recoil spring a ramp, throat, and extractor tweak that feeds so slick that chambering a round from slidelock sounds like letting the slide go on an empty chamber, it's a sure bet that the stop pin is hitting those lug feet harder than it should.

As noted before...A gun that will be carried for serious purpose is one
that I want to feed like that. If I have to use it, I'm past the point of
worrying about anything except staying alive. My carry guns don't
see a lot of use beyond firing a few rounds now and then for function
testing.

A heavy-use beater is different. I want that one to live long and prosper.
A failure to return to full battery every 500 rounds or so won't get me dead.

Always a pleasure to discuss the old pistols with somebody who truly understands what they were really meant to be. Not a slur against
the target tuned guns or the people who love'em...Just observing the
difference between a weapon and a toy.

Jim Keenan is a man who understands. How 'bout it Jim...Got anything
to add?

Cheers all!

Tuner

[Topgun]

One correction.

The only time anyone said anyone was "stupid" was when a "Moderator" took the high road and said my technique was "stupid."

I did not call anyone "stupid."

And one open question:

It is ....designed..... to be EASIER on the mechanism to have the trigger held back while the slide chambers a round.

Safety aside, is this not a true statement?

:confused:

[BluesBear]

I have heard people for years and years brag about how their .45 would feed empty cases.

I have never owned a .45 that wouldn't feed an empty case as long as that empty case was placed in the magazine as far rearward as possible.

I have seen quite a few .45s that would feed empty cases that would barely feed GI Ball. While I have seen uber-reliable-with-anything guns that would mangle an empty case worse than a Rock Chucker loaded with a 9mm die.

What good does it do to feed empty cases? The length and profle of an empty case has very little to do (I purposly avoided using the word nothing) with the proper functioning of loaded ammo.
The only thing that I really care about feeding empty cases is the Dillion XL650 I am buying myself next year.

Please enlighten me if I am mistaken.

[Sean Smith]

I don't mean to knock the changes you made, or the group you shot.

Um, I didn't think you were. I really was agreeing with you... even though my last gun completely ignored that fact. :D

[Old Fuff]

Blues:

The guns I mentioned that could feed empty cases also reliably feed various configurations of ammunition too. I have yet to see a properly adjusted Government Model that wouldn’t feed ball. Of course bad magazines or improperly fitted extractors will do it every time, along with other assorted woes associated with mis-fitted or non-standard parts. While hand-feeding empty cases might not seem to have any practical value they will give you a clue sometimes if they hang up. The absolutely blunt front end and short overall length are not forgiving, and if there is a problem with extractor tension or fit it will soon show up. One can use dummy rounds for this purpose, but I hate losing them on the floor when they roll under something.

My other (and main) purpose was to show that an exaggerated barrel throat isn’t always necessary to insure a blunt bullet will feed. If the magazine is adjusted for the particular cartridge and the rim moves as it should under the extractor hook the controlled feed will position the cartridge at an optimal angle. Excessive removal of metal in the throat area will leave the case head unsupported, which is not good at all.

There are many ways to arrive at the goal of having a completely reliable pistol (or at least as reliable as possible). I am sure we will continue to see friendly debates over which method(s) or techniques are best. If the goal is reach without detrimental side effects I don’t believe it really matters how one gets there.

[wanderinwalker]

Okay, so I fail this test. I personally observe the rule of NEVER PUT FINGER ON TRIGGER UNLESS I WANT TO MAKE THE FIREARM GO BOOM!!! Also, when loading rounds I let the slide run without riding it. A semi-auto is designed to feed at full speed ahead. I always let semi-autos work this way, the way it was designed to. (Well, okay, I will gently close a 1911 on an empty chamber, just because I don't like it when people "in the know" tell me that it will damage the gun and reduce accuracy.)

PS: I have Glocks as well, and a finger inside of the trigger-guard of a Glock is waiting to fire the pistol. Same rule for everything makes life simple.

[Ankeny]

Hey Topgun:

I didn't say you called anyone stupid. However, you sure enough are good at making the inference.

[1911Tuner]

Old Fluff said:

There are many ways to arrive at the goal of having a completely reliable pistol (or at least as reliable as possible). I am sure we will continue to see friendly debates over which method(s) or techniques are best. If the goal is reach without detrimental side effects I don’t believe it really matters how one gets there.
----------------------------------
Fluff my man! Sounds like we mighta sat at the knee of the same master.
If ya ever make it to the NC Piedmont/Foothills, look me up. I'll put on a
pot of my internationally feared turbocoffee and we'll sit and talk pistols.

Cheers!

Tuner

[voilsb]

So let me get this straight ... you can get a 1911 with a trigger light enough to, in effect, slam fire when the slide is slammed foreward.

If it does this, what prevents it from doing it again when it goes foreward after the first slamfire? Can you effectively bump-fire a super-duper target 1911 by simply hitting the slide release?

[1911Tuner]

The question was:

So let me get this straight ... you can get a 1911 with a trigger light enough to, in effect, slam fire when the slide is slammed foreward.
-------------------------------------------------
Well, the answer is yes and no. If the hammer/sear engagement is
so "hairy" that the inertial bounce of the hammer breaks the contact...
yes...if the trigger is pulled. If the trigger isn't pulled, the sear captures
the half-cock notch and stops the hammer. This is assuming that the
half-cock hasn't been removed, and the sear is long enough to catch the
notch. If not, all bets are off.

------------------------------------------
If it does this, what prevents it from doing it again when it goes foreward after the first slamfire? Can you effectively bump-fire a super-duper target 1911 by simply hitting the slide release?
-------------------------------------------

Again, if the hammer/sear engagement are so touchy that they will
"jar off", the gun can go full-auto. If the sear isn't too short, and the
half cock notch is there, releasing the trigger will USUALLY stop it.

An incorrectly done trigger job on a 1911 is a dangerous thing, and
many people have at it without a good understanding of the mechanics.
Incorrectly done, almost anything is subject to happen. A true full auto
experience is pretty rare, and requires the jar-off to happen at the right
time, just as the slide goes to battery. Most of the time, it shows up as
a double or triple, and either the hammer will then stay at full cock, follow
to the half-cock, or ride the slide all the way, which doesn't provide the
punch on the firing pin needed to fire the primer.

If a hammer follow is allowed to go on for long, sooner or later, you'll
get a burst-fire or even a full-auto experience. If it happens once,
unload the gun, and don't load it again until it's repaired, because
something is wrong. Even if it does it once, and doesn't do it again
for the remainder of the range session, have it checked out!
It may be something as simple as a weak sear or mainspring...and it may
be as involved as worn/damaged hammer hooks or sear.

Be safe and shoot straight!

Tuner

[Topgun]

My apologies. I misread the following.

There are two things that I object to with this thread. The first is the notion that a shooter is somehow inferior or just plain stupid if they don't load in the fashion put forth by Mr. Top Gun.

I shot back too fast.

The point of the thread is based on what I learned years and years ago. Namely that the MECHANISM is DESIGNED to be loaded by holding back the trigger to relieve stress on the sear.

And it blossomed (?) into the resultant harangue.

As always, we are all going to do it as WE see fit. There is no more sage advice than the old saw: "The safety of every gun is between your ears."

It will always be so.

Finger in......finger out.......both are safe as long as the BRAIN is engaged.

The thread ignored the situation that could occur if someone was not fully aware of the EXACT position of his gun or bobbled the process.

You CAN fire the gun inadvertently with your finger on the trigger. But NOT if it is conscientously held back firmly while releasing the slide.

It may be safer to keep the finger off the trigger for fast maneuvering of the gun even though it is putting stress on the sear. And if you handle BOTH light and standard weight triggers, the finger on .... conscientiously....
will prevent a ND.

And so the thread goes to bed for me.

[Zach S]

I didnt bother reading the whole thread, only the first post.

Topgun, I keep my finger off the trigger unless I'm firing. All of my 1911 have stock triggers, so I dont worry about the gun firing itself because the slamming slide jared the gun to the point where the trigger was pulled by itself. If I had a trigger that light, I dont think I'd be comfortable with it at all and a "backwards" trigger job would be in the near future.

[HD]

recipe for a thrashing ... take 1 idiot who believes the 'gunwriters' ...
add 1 'gunny' with a swaggerstick...
proceed to have digit in triggerguard while loading / reloading ...= hilarity ensues ...
(just short of hospitalization)...



no thanks , my pistols are mil-spec & bone stock ...
had all the fancy crap , found it wasn't needed...
besides what rule is it that says 'keep your f'ing finger out of the trigger guard/off of the trigger til you're ready to shoot'...?

[1911Tuner]

Never saw a Gunny with a swagger stick. Saw a couple carryin'
BILLY sticks though...:D

[Navy joe]

Namely that the MECHANISM is DESIGNED to be loaded by holding back the trigger to relieve stress on the sear.

Designed. I would take that word to mean JMB decided it was necessary and the Army put it in its manuals. Designed does not mean "something a bunch of bullseye shooters from way back decided was a good idea".

Riding the trigger perhaps has a place with ultra light triggers when doing extensive dryfire practice. I'm sure it will preserve the trigger job. I saw the result of this awhile back, a normally good gunhandler had gotten a new open gun with a 2lb trigger and had put in several thousand dryfire repetitions with it before bringing it to its first match. He had been riding the trigger for all of these. The result was at his first "unload and show clear" he placed his finger on the trigger before racking the slide. The autorack feature enabled, a new hole appeared in the dirt and the shooter got to put his gun away for the day.

I forgot IPSC rules. In fact, I never knew them. Guess I kinda always figured that IPSC was an inherently less-than-optimal-safety sort of game.

You figured wrong.

I will continue to load my 1911s finger off of trigger guard. Lighter triggers will get lower mass parts and lower powered springs as appropriate. My chance of an AD from a sear failure or trigger bounce is way smaller than my chance of an ND from having my finger on the trigger.

[HD]

Never saw a Gunny with a swagger stick. Saw a couple carryin'
BILLY sticks though...

ah , johnny you know what i'm talking about ...
damm , a gunny would have MI if he saw someone pulling that &*() with a 1911...
i guess i'll have to go through johns papers and the army records for the references i need ...
what dammfool came up with this concept originally ?
and what does the col. have to say about it ?

[1911Tuner]

Before we take any more shots at the lad, let's address the original question a little further.

HD asked:

what dammfool came up with this concept originally ?
and what does the col. have to say about it

TopGun brought up a valid and completely accurate point. Back in the
day before lightweight triggers and reduced mass parts, the advice
was good when handling a match-tuned 1911 pistol. Remember that
the art of playing with sear angles was still pretty new, and things
didn't always go so well. The practice did protect the primary sear
angles and prevent the hammer from bouncing off the sear long enough
to produce a hammer followdown or a slam fire event. These were
strictly slow-fire pistols, however. In a fast-moving game, with stress
bearing on the shooter, such a practice is inherently dangerous. As
noted before, the sequence can go haywire, and a round fired before the
shooter has gotten a full grip or has the muzzle pointed straight downrange. I've seen it happen, and you can bet that if the RO sees
a shooter do it during a reload, the shooter will be disqualified for the day.

So...both points are completely valid. It's just that the former isn't so
any more because lighter triggers and related components, along with
better techinque on properly done trigger jobs has made the practice
unnecessary. The fast-moving games have also put it into the dangerous
and therefore disallowed category.

Cheers all!

Tuner