Israel Trip: Uzi on Full Auto


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NeverAgain26
December 11, 2003, 01:57 PM
I came to Israel on some business this week and had an opportunity yesterday to try out some Uzis; a mini and a regular sized version. I shot both semi-auto and full-auto.

The guns are fun to shoot, but more on full-auto than on semi-auto. I liked the mini better than the full size.

Shooting semi-auto for accuracy at 20 yards, I had difficulty maintaining any consistency. I guess like any gun used for the first time, one has to learn the sights and point of aim.

Shooting full-auto, I had better results. I was able to put down 15 out of 16 steel targets at 15 yards (ranging in size from 6" plates to 24" tall silhouettes) using only 1 magazine of 25 rounds firing short bursts.

It is a pretty functional gun but I have to confess, I do not like the sights for accuracy work, not even as close as 15 yards. I was tempted to shoot from the hip on full auto, but I did not want to make an a** out of myself in front of my hosts.

I found a new holster prototype invented here which would allow the slide to be racked and a round chambered in one swift move on the draw. 1911's could be carried hammer down (no round chambered) and not cocked and locked. DA and DAO guns could be carried hammer down, no round in the chamber and drawn ready for SA trigger work. I think this might be interesting in terms of being ready faster and safer and it will eliminate A.D's in 1911's and DA to SA trigger pull transitioning in DA/DAO models. Thoughts, anyone?

I am working on bringing this into the U.S. market and hope to present it at the SHOT Show.

I also found a GunVault type item which will allow a rifle (AR, AK or UZI) to be stored safely with a round chambered and the magazine in the mag well. I doubt it has any private individual significance, but it might be a safe firearm storage system for troops in mess and bivouac who need a temporary way to secure their arms with quick access while eating, sleeping or for longer range vehicular/helicopter transport where there are a lot of troops and arms to account for and secure. LEO's might use it to secure their arms when leaving a vehicle for short periods.

On a different note, I was a block away from a bombing in Tel Aviv today. It was not a terrorist bombing. It was an attempted hit on an organized crime figure here. The response on the part of the Israeli LEO's was amazing in terms of it's professionalism and thoroughness.

NA26

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Andrew Rothman
December 11, 2003, 02:05 PM
found a new holster prototype invented here which would allow the slide to be racked and a round chambered in one swift move on the draw.

Still sounds like a solution in search of a problem. The "Israeli Technique" has been discussed (and cussed!) pretty widely here already.

Still, as an American Jew, I love hearing about Yid weaponry. I have always maintained that the whole Woody Allen wimpy Jew stereotype is a Mossad propaganda campaign to hide the fact that beanies or no, we are bad-asses! :D

NeverAgain26
December 11, 2003, 03:00 PM
A lot of people are concerned about carrying cocked and locked. I know it is safe, but there are people who will not carry cocked and locked. Being able to carry in condition 2 and chamber a round/rack the slide on the draw is an advantage. This is not the Israeli slap/rack technique. This is actually faster and easier on the hands.

If you have DA/SA firearm, transitioning from DA with heavy trigger pull to SA (much lighter pull) is a real bitch and needs a lot of practice. The first shot fired DA also traditionally is not as well aimed due to the sheer effort needed to squeeze off a shot.

I think the holster would present an ideal solution to these 2 issues.

NA26

Steve Smith
December 11, 2003, 03:03 PM
Is that the big goofy hard holster that holds the gun by the slide? What a POS.

NeverAgain26
December 11, 2003, 03:11 PM
No, it is not. It is the same size as a regular holster (more slim in profile actually). I cannot discuss the retention technique at this point as it is not patented and I cannot divulge the details.

What big, goofy holster did you see and where (if I may ask)?

NA26

cordex
December 11, 2003, 03:17 PM
I found a new holster prototype invented here which would allow the slide to be racked and a round chambered in one swift move on the draw.
I drew up plans for a shoulder holster that operated like this back in high school. Realized I wouldn't want to carry like that so I never tried to build it.

Steve Smith
December 11, 2003, 03:23 PM
Shot Show, 2001 or 2002, I've forgotten.

matis
December 11, 2003, 05:10 PM
Mpayne said:
Still, as an American Jew, I love hearing about Yid weaponry.
_____________________________________________________


Me too!


In the early 70's I thought I was "against war".


Then some Israeli friends showed me film of a military parade down Dizengoff St. in Tel Aviv.

Imagine!

Instead of cowering, here were Jews driving tanks, half-tracks, towing jet fighters, marching with rifles in IDF uniform -- all emblazoned with the Star of David!


After finishing with the Kleenex, I arose out of my previous condition like Superman out of the phone booth! In a few short years I went from anti- to gun nut.


I LOVE hearing about and seeing and handling Yid weaponry.


I understand that the Uzi is now relegated to the Home Guard (mostly older men) and some paratrooper units who need shorter guns.

Something about 9mm not penetrating vests and flack jackets.


Is this true, NeverAgain 26?




matis

esheato
December 11, 2003, 05:37 PM
If I read your post correctly, would this new prototype holster be similar to the Phalanx Lash (http://www.phalanxarms.com/) system?

esheato...

Daniel Watters
December 11, 2003, 05:43 PM
FWIW: Richard Seldeen tried to market a slide racking holster for the M1911 during the early 1980s.

US4298150: Pistol charging holster (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4,298,150.WKU.&OS=PN/4,298,150&RS=PN/4,298,150)

Oleg Volk
December 11, 2003, 08:00 PM
http://www.olegvolk.net/newphotos/ga03/oleg-uzi-side_s.jpg Uzi is a fun weapon. Grip is important as relaxing on the grip safety stops the gun in mid-burst. Effective range seems to be around 20-30m semi or full, if hits on a galon jug are the test. Single shots can be fires easily in auto mode. Metal stock was surprisingly comfy and functional. More photos from the get-together (http://www.olegvolk.net/newphotos/ga03/thumbnails.html)

Jack19
December 11, 2003, 08:57 PM
Israel is a great and beautiful country. I was there earlier this year. "Never Again." Amen.

I've got a semi-Uzi that I woudn't trade for much of anything. It's amazingly accurate when used as it was intended and one of my favorite weapons. Sadly, I live in a state that prohibits FA and SBR so a barrel shroud makes the US semi version look not so un-natural.

matis..here ya go.:D:D:D(I was called a "righteous" Christian once, by people I respect, I hope I live up to that.)

http://isayeret.com/
http://www.geocities.com/mazanga9/IDF/IDFSnipingSharpshooting.htm

BluesBear
December 11, 2003, 09:50 PM
Bianchi produced a holster back around 1968 that enabled you to chamber a round one handed in a Colt Government.

Once you got the hang of it it was suprisingly fast. If you didn't know what it was it was just another holster.

matis
December 12, 2003, 12:22 AM
Jack19 said:
(I was called a "righteous" Christian once, by people I respect, I hope I live up to that.)
___________________________________________________________


Jack 19,

When I read about the deeds of righteous Christians, at the risk of their lives and those of their families, I wonder if in their place I would have had such courage and conviction.

You received high praise, indeed.




matis

NeverAgain26
December 12, 2003, 12:57 PM
Sorry for the late reply. I was en route when all the above posts were being posted.

Steve Smith: Thanks for the reply and I will keep my eyes open at this year's SHOT SHow in Vegas for something along these lines.

matis:I am not sure where the Uzi is prmarily serving, but in my travels, most of the troops I saw had long guns (AR's, maybe some AK's? I wasn't particulary paying close attention). At Guard Posts and Checkpoints I did see more Uzi's.

esheato: The Phalanx Lash link was most helpful. From the drawings and photos, their product seems a bit over-engineered and bulky. Without seeing a real unit, I cannot tell. The one I saw in Israel was a lot simpler, slimmer in profile.

Daniel Watters: Thanks for another good link. From what I could tell, the link is probably the most similar to the one I saw in Israel. Again, from the drawings, I believe the one I saw in Israel was a superior design to the one in the link you provided.

I guess I sould not be surprised that this is out there. Whoever brings the best to market and markets a superior product at an affordable price should do well in this niche market.

Thanks to all.

NA26

ysr_racer
December 12, 2003, 12:58 PM
I have always maintained that the whole Woody Allen wimpy Jew stereotype is a Mossad propaganda campaign to hide the fact that beanies or no, we are bad-asses

http://www.thehebrewhammer.com/

Mordechai Jefferson Carver, a.k.a. The Hebrew Hammer

What drives ordinary men to greatness? Why are heroes made, not born? What does it take to get a guy into a really pimpy, knee-length black leather coat and a low-riding baby blue Caddy with white fur interior?

For Mordechai Jefferson Carver, it started when he was the only Jewish boy in school.

Every December, Mordechai looked on while his gentile peers got pricey presents under brightly-lit trees, while all Mordechai got was a dreidel and their disdain.

But Carver stayed true to his heritage.

Today, Mordechai Jefferson Carver is known throughout the world as The Hebrew Hammer, the baddest Heeb this side of Tel Aviv, a stylish strongman, a protector of the innocent, a man's mensch in these troubled times.

A hero on his hometown Brooklyn streets following a "situation" he "took care of" on the West Bank in the not-too-distant past, the Hammer runs a quiet business as a private investigator – he's a certified circumcised dick – when he's not protecting the traditions of his people from destructive outside forces.

But still, his mother wishes he'd done more with his life.


http://www.thehebrewhammer.com/images/Slideshow/5.jpg

MicroBalrog
December 12, 2003, 01:11 PM
I came to Israel on some business this week and had an opportunity yesterday to try out some Uzis; a mini and a regular sized version. I shot both semi-auto and full-auto.

Where? How? Pray tell.

NeverAgain26
December 12, 2003, 01:31 PM
MicroBalrog: Kibbutz Ayeleth Ha-Shachar in the Galil. They have a Mitvach (Shooting Range) there for public use. When I was there, they had regular and mini Uzis, The Jericho and also a Desert Eagle in 44Mag available for use.

I asked for a Galil but the one they had was not in service at the time.

It wasn't cheap, but maybe you can call ahead and see whether you get a better price by bringing your own ammo.

Nice folks and pretty friendly.

NA26

MicroBalrog
December 12, 2003, 01:37 PM
It wasn't cheap, but maybe you can call ahead and see whether you get a better price by bringing your own ammo.

And where, pray tell, would I buy 5.56mm legally?:banghead:

The fact that the guys from Ayelet Hashachar have those "Roc's Teeth" license for all the full-auto guns they have doesn't mean we mere peasants can have them.:banghead:

NeverAgain26
December 12, 2003, 01:56 PM
I'm far from an Uzi expert, but I was under the impression I was shooting 9mm's.

As far as them having the licenses and you not having the license, this is a shooting range open to the public where you rent a gun and shoot. No permit or license was reqested of me.

You asked me where and how. You now have that info.

Wish I could help you get a license, but I would probably want one for myself, first :neener: .

What are Roc's Teeth licenses?

NA26

MicroBalrog
December 12, 2003, 02:00 PM
"Roc's tooth" - something very rare.

I was referring to the 5,56mm Galil.:D

As for the licenses, getting licensed for a handgun is a feat in itself. Purchasing ammo separately is an option only for legal handgun owners.

Full-auto weapons (and ANY rifles) is a separate feat.

JShirley
December 18, 2003, 02:54 AM
Oleg,

It might be more accurate to say, "Effective range for me, offhand..." Byron and others can hit torso-sized targets from prone to 200 meters.

Ukraine Train
December 18, 2003, 03:28 AM
I'm going to Israel next week. My group will be escorted by an armed medic, maybe he/she will be nice enough to take me shooting hehe.

MicroBalrog
December 18, 2003, 11:10 AM
I'm going to Israel next week

You could contact me at 03-5080974 or 055-508182 for the first ever Middle-East THR meet-up!

Ukraine Train
December 18, 2003, 07:19 PM
MicroBalrog,

What city are you in? Our group has a pretty set itinerary so I don't know if I'll have enough free time but if I do you just might get a call from me! How is the weather there this time of year? The suggested packing list says to bring a winter coat and here I was expecting to get a tan on the beach haha.

Phil Ca
December 18, 2003, 08:33 PM
Somewhere I read that on some tourist buses the people are asked if they would be willing to carry an Uzi during the trip. That would be my kind of tour since I used to train people with the Uzi when I worked for the USTD. they are a great firearm and using it as a semi-auto carbine in an urban environment works well also.

444
December 18, 2003, 08:43 PM
Israel's army phases out country's iconic Uzi submachine gun|
AP Photos NY197-8|
|By JASON KEYSER|
|Associated Press Writer|
JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel's military is phasing out the legendary Uzi
submachine gun, calling it antiquated and replacing it with more
sophisticated, electronics-outfitted weaponry, an army spokesman said
Wednesday.
But the Uzi, a national icon and the country's most famous
contribution to the arms industry, will still be produced and
exported, to the presumable delight of drug dealers, gang members,
Secret Service agents and Hollywood action stars alike.
Israel's military took the simply constructed, half-century-old
weapon out of front line units two decades ago, but continued to
issue it to some elite units and soldiers carrying heavy gear who
needed a light weapon for self-defense.
Now the army says it will dump it altogether.
As of this week, ''we're no longer training soldiers on the Uzi,''
said army spokesman Capt. Jacob Dallal. ''Basically, it's
antiquated,'' he said of the 9-mm weapon.
State-owned Israel Military Industries has made over 1.5 million
Uzis and will continue manufacturing the weapon, which has earned
hundreds of millions of dollars from sales the world over, including
in the United States, Latin America and Africa.
Illegal arms sales have also put the weapon into the hands of
Colombian drug lords.
In Israel, the weapon's smaller models are still popular with
security guards who favor portability over accuracy. Many private
security companies use the original, larger model because it's cheap.
It's also still a mainstay with some of the world's police forces
and security services guarding VIPs, said Yiftah Shapir of the Jaffee
Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University.
The Uzi, while still used by the U.S. Secret Service, is also
beloved of gangs in the United States because of its reputation as
''a macho weapon,'' said gun expert Tim Brown of Globalsecurity.org.
But he added the Uzi ''is not a very good gun - it's very
inefficient, inaccurate. ... It's mostly used in bad Hollywood action
movies.''
In 1984's ''The Terminator,'' for example, a gun shop owner commends
Arnold Schwarzenegger's cyborg for ordering the ''Uzi nine
millimeter'' before his murderous rampage.
Whatever its qualities as a weapon, the Uzi arouses nostalgia and
pride in Israel, where it was developed around the same time as the
country's war-rattled birth in 1948.
''It was the first Israeli weapon after 2,000 years of diaspora,''
Shapir said. Recalling his own days in the military in the late
1960s, he added, ''I can still disassemble an Uzi with my eyes
closed, hands tied behind my back, even if you wake me in the middle
of the night.''
Elite Israeli fighting units found it useful because of its
resistance to mud and water, giving the weapon a further mystique -
and marketing cachet.
The Uzi again made headlines when the weapon's creator, Uzi Gal, 79,
died in September 2002.
At 15, Gal developed a bow that could automatically fire arrows, and
later he secretly made weapons in a metal workshop for the Jewish
underground. When the first Arab-Israeli war erupted in 1948, he was
asked to develop a submachine gun for Israel's army, which faced
weapons embargoes and had little cash.
The Uzi first found its way into soldiers' hands in 1954, and it
swiftly proved its deadly effectiveness two years later in the Sinai
campaign against Egypt.
Among various models are Uzi Carbine, with a long barrel, the
Micro-Uzi, which is smaller, and the Uzi Pistol, a semiautomatic
weapon slightly larger than a regular handgun and weighing less than
4 pounds.
The Uzi - whose modified single-shot pistol version can be bought
for some $500 in the United States - is one of the most copied
weapons in the world, with knockoffs produced in China and several
eastern European countries, according to Israeli media reports.
Through its long years of service in the Israeli military, soldiers
revered it for its hardiness and ease of operation - but at the same
time lamented its limited range and disturbing tendency to fire
itself when dropped or struck. Its short barrel gave it an accurate
range of just 50 yards.
The weapon was taken out of use by front line units in Israel in the
early 1980s. It was replaced with standard and short versions of the
American-made M-16, which can accurately hit a target at 1,000 yards.
This year, Israel announced the development of the Tavor, a new,
compact assault rifle to be issued to soldiers starting in January.
The rifle comes in three designs: a basic assault rifle, a
sharp-shooting model and a shorter version for commandos and
paratroopers that is useful in urban warfare.
The Tavor, like the Uzi, is small enough to be useful in street
combat, but it can also be outfitted with high-tech electronics, such
as sights that can provide real-time data on targets a soldier might
not be able to see with his own eyes.
The simple Uzi, by comparison, is greatly outdated, Shapir said.
''Just a few pieces of metal, one spring, and that's it.''
--

444
December 18, 2003, 08:45 PM
I have had the opportunity to fire a couple Uzi sub guns and the Galil in both 5.56mm and 7.62mm.
All were here in the US and I am not sure if there were converted guns or the real thing.
I enjoyed them all. I won't speculate on their effectiveness as combat weapons, but the UZI has a long and storied history.

BluesBear
December 19, 2003, 12:37 AM
Its short barrel gave it an accurate range of just 50 yards. :rolleyes:

It was replaced with standard and short versions of the American-made M-16, which can accurately hit a target at 1,000 yards. :uhoh:


:banghead: It's amazing what some people will believe.

MicroBalrog
December 19, 2003, 01:57 PM
MicroBalrog,

What city are you in? Our group has a pretty set itinerary so I don't know if I'll have enough free time but if I do you just might get a call from me! How is the weather there this time of year? The suggested packing list says to bring a winter coat and here I was expecting to get a tan on the beach haha.



I'm in a suburb of Tel-Aviv.

YES, bring a winter coat AND an umbrella.

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