H335 Powder and .223


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5thSFGroup
August 30, 2010, 06:24 PM
I have loaded some 60 grain and 75 grain bullets using H335 powder. On the 60 grain bullets, the load called for is approximately 23. When using those rounds they appear way too hot. I have lowered them down to 21.5 grains and they seem to be much more civilized. In fact the bottom end of the load was listed at 23.4 I think and went even higher. Nutz on that...way too hot.

I lowered the 75 grain rounds to 19.5. Does anyone have any comments, observations or wise cracks that they would care to share?

They are being used in an AR and the barrel is a 1 in 7. Thanks

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rcmodel
August 30, 2010, 06:30 PM
Something is amiss somewhere.

Both your loads are well below recommended starting loads in both Hodgdons and Lyman #49 manuals.

How exactly are you measuring pressure or velocity to even have a clue how hot the recommended loads are??

rc

NCsmitty
August 30, 2010, 07:49 PM
Have you shot factory or milsurp ammo? If so, what did they act like?

As rcmodel mentioned, something doesn't sound right. Double check your scale zero, and verify the charge weights.



NCsmitty

snuffy
August 30, 2010, 09:32 PM
On the 60 grain bullets, the load called for is approximately 23.

Approximately??? There's no approximate loads in any loading manual. There's a bunch of SPECIFICloads. Nothing involved with reloading is approximate.

I routinely load 24.0 H-335 with 60 grain V-max Hornady's. Noting hot about it, of course those were worked up from beginning loads.

5thSFGroup
August 30, 2010, 09:33 PM
I checked this more than ten times. I am using an RCBS scale and a RCBS powder ispenser that has worked fine for all of my other loads. I use this scale on verifying all of my hand gun loads and they are fine.

Canuck-IL
August 30, 2010, 10:20 PM
Well, then, it comes down to your definition of "way too hot." What's the evidence? Primers flattening, velocity over a chrono, what?

The load range you're referencing is pretty routine.
/Bryan

5thSFGroup
August 30, 2010, 10:24 PM
Two primers blew. That is what started the concern. By the way, in the scientific community, all and I do mean all measurements are considered approximate. When I take a measurement, I use specific indicators and presume then to be accurate. I do not fudge on the readings....the term approximate is in compliance with scientific standards.

Canuck-IL
August 30, 2010, 11:50 PM
Well, as RC noted, something is amiss. Were they reloads? Federal brass for instance has a known record of soft pockets that begin to loose their primers upon reloading relatively earlier than other brands.

...the term approximate is in compliance with scientific standards
Without a tolerance provided that's just so much verbiage. Most reloaders load to +/- .1 grains altho some measure/powder combinations require a lot of checking to maintain that.
/B

Rokman
August 31, 2010, 12:25 AM
I have loaded up to 25.0 grains H335 with Nosler 60gr. btips with Win and Rem brass and CCI 400 primers in my AR's with excellent results.

evan price
August 31, 2010, 12:38 AM
First, what brass? Some brass is thicker or contains less volume and needs less powder. Second, how deep are you seating? Third- is your firing pin just too pointy?
That charge should be OK.

Rokman
August 31, 2010, 12:43 AM
I think you would be better served using RL15, TAC, or Varget with the 75 grain bullets. I know that they have worked well for me. Good luck.

Ol` Joe
August 31, 2010, 12:58 AM
You`re not loading Rem 6 1/2 primers are you?

ArchAngelCD
August 31, 2010, 05:15 AM
I agree. something isn't right here. There are so many causes to primer problems it's hard to pinpoint on the Internet. I use H335 for most of my .223 ammo and never have a problem with blown primers. I have use CCI-450 primers (SRM) and CCI #41 NATO primers but mostly standard CCI-400 primers without incidence.

snuffy
August 31, 2010, 11:42 AM
Two primers blew. That is what started the concern. By the way, in the scientific community, all and I do mean all measurements are considered approximate. When I take a measurement, I use specific indicators and presume then to be accurate. I do not fudge on the readings....the term approximate is in compliance with scientific standards.

You speak/write in generalities. Two primers blew." How? Did they pierce? Or fall out of over-expanded pockets? What brand and number primer? What make of brass?

You come here looking for advice, but give almost no specific data.

As for the scientific community accepting approximate measurements, how did we get to the moon and back without being damn sure of their measurements? Any powder measure is set by the factory to be pretty darn precise. It's up to the user to make sure it's set up correctly. Then the best bet is to get some check weights to verify that it's zeroed. Then when we're discussing powder charges, we write 23.0 grains, not just 23! 23 what? Clams?

5thSFGroup
August 31, 2010, 12:47 PM
I am using military brass (un used) and CCI military primers. The two primers that blew actually locked up the bolt. One of the brass rounds shattered at the base. I took the remaining rounds apart and measured the powder in them to be sure that they were not overloaded. They were loaded at the same time as the problem rounds and were in compliance.

Evan, I think you might be correct. The military brass is thicker. I believe that might be a good call.

5thSFGroup
August 31, 2010, 12:52 PM
Also, the the scientific community does not "accept" approximate measurements, it uses the term "approximate" because there are no absolutes in science except Kelvin, which is absolute zero degrees.

Historian
August 31, 2010, 12:59 PM
I have been loading 60g Noslers over 23g of H335 for several months now for my Varminter and getting very good results. I have never had the feeling that the load is too hot and my cases don't show any signs of overpresssure. BTW I am using Lake City brass and CCI small rifle primers.

Historian
____________
"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely undo the liberties of America than the whole force of a common enemy."
Samuel Adams

rcmodel
August 31, 2010, 01:04 PM
The military brass is thicker. I believe that might be a good call.Military brass is simply not going to make below Starting loads blow primers.

You have something else going on you haven't discovered yet.

Keep looking, starting with the scales being off, (check weight test it)

Or powder bridging in your measure drop tube & dropping a light charge followed by a heavy charge occasionally. (inspect all the charges in a loading block before seating bullets in all of them.)

rc

Canuck-IL
August 31, 2010, 01:28 PM
...or it's not really H335. It happens!
/B

5thSFGroup
August 31, 2010, 01:56 PM
Thanks Canuck. I have just gone back through a batch and inspected the powder level in each case prior to pressing the round into place. I will give it a try and see what happens. The powder is being dropped by an RCBS unit and my scale is a RCBS. I have checked it at zero. I have had no problems with my pistol rounds (I am using Clay powder in them). My .40 and .45 rounds function perfectly. I have another container of H335 and may open it to see if there is a difference.

Thanks again to all for the suggestions. It is appreciated.

rcmodel
August 31, 2010, 02:14 PM
One of the brass rounds shattered at the base.So, did your gun blow up, or what?
That is almost always what happens when a case completely lets go.

Were it not for that statement about shattered brass? I would wonder if you are only getting primers backed out of the case, and calling them "blown" primers?

Primers backing out is an indication of too low pressure, not too high.
That would be in keeping with your "below starting load" pressure.

Without full chamber pressure to force the case back tight against the bolt face and reseating the primer, they stay backed out.

rc

5thSFGroup
August 31, 2010, 05:57 PM
The rifle did not blow up but the brass did shatter on one. The primer blew back out on the one just prior to the shatter. I had fired 15 rounds from the same loading batch without incident. The first incident blew the primer back. I thought that was a freak incident. I cleared the rifle, saw no damage and the next round shattered the base. I took the remaining rounds apart and checked the powder weight. They were all at the recommended settings. It is possible there was a bridge powder load problem...the low load blew the primer and the second load was hot and blew the shell. What do you think?
I replaced the bolt for safety. Those loads were at the recommended settings. I lowered them after that.

rcmodel
August 31, 2010, 06:06 PM
Still having difficulty understanding what you are calling a "blown" primer.

Do you mean it just backed out of the primer pocket and was sticking out but not leaking?

Or actually blown, and leaking hot gas with resulting smoke, shock & awe?

but the brass did shatter on one. Like to see a picture of that.
Brass doesn't shatter from a high-pressure load.
It deforms with enlarged loose primer pockets, and finally with enough over-pressure it melts, leaking high-pressure gas into the action.
That will almost certainly result in blowing up a gun.

At the very least on an AR-15, it would have to blow the magazine out and vent gas out the bottom of the mag well.
There is no other place it can go.

rc

5thSFGroup
August 31, 2010, 06:09 PM
smoke, shock and awe

rcmodel
August 31, 2010, 06:12 PM
the low load blew the primer and the second load was hot and blew the shell.Well, I guess, maybe.
But a low load should not have blown a primer, just backed it out some.

A serious over-charge resulting from a light powder drop the time before could certainly explain the KaBoom though.

rc

5thSFGroup
August 31, 2010, 06:15 PM
Do you think that I should just go back to recommended loads for the H335? What about continuing to use the H335 on a 75 grain bullet?

rcmodel
August 31, 2010, 06:34 PM
Yes I do, although a slower powder like Varget might be a better choice with heavy bullets.

Hodgdon lists H335 powder with bullets all the way up to 80 grain Serra Match Kings, although the pressure window is only 2.5 grains from Starting to Max loads.
20.0 grains = 39,700 CUP.
22.5 grains = 50,000 CUP.

For 75 grain VLD bullets, they show Start = 21.0.
Max = 23.0.

I still think whatever happened was a loading error of some kind.

Over-charge for some reason?
Or seating too deep, reducing case capacity?
Or seating too long with the bullet jammed into the rifling?
Or defective brass?
Or an AR-15 with a short throat .223 match chamber instead of a 5.56 NATO chamber?

rc

handloader357
August 31, 2010, 06:58 PM
Just a thought, but are you sure the bad rounds actually had 60 gr bullets seated on them?

Tim the student
September 1, 2010, 11:16 AM
I'd be interested in hearing what it turns out to be. OP, please keep us updated.

5thSFGroup
September 2, 2010, 02:12 PM
I am positive that the bullets were 60 grain. I do have a tight barrel...1 in 7. The more I think about what rc has stated, the more I believe there was a bridge powder problem. I loaded these on a friends RCBS powder dispenser and his is very well used and fairly old...lots of miles on it.

Yesterday, I loaded a few at home, using a brand new RCBS dispenser....standard load per Lyman and the rifle did fine. I did notice the brief window on the H335 powder between starting and max load....very accurate rifle but definitely a tight barrel.

Thanks again to all for the info.

ReloaderEd
September 2, 2010, 04:35 PM
Outside temperature can play a factor which I had happen with a 243 winchester, norma brass new and a hot day of about 98 degrees. I fired the load in cooler weather, had good groups and no pressure signs. We to a fun bench rest shoot and worked up the same load in the norma brass. Everything seemed ok then I looked at a few fired cases on the bench, primer pockets were larger than normal with the primers laying out on the bench. .4" group at 100 yds too, came in 14th place.
You definitely have a hot batch of powder. It happens with hogden. I have used H335 and it seems to get hotter with age. It is the only powder that I had reloaded with that has been associated with split case necks in annealed cases. go figure
Settle on a good powder and stick with it. blowing primers is dangerous to you,

5thSFGroup
September 2, 2010, 07:29 PM
That was great information. I was using powder that my friend had stored outside. The day we used it, it was 99. I keep my powder in a cool environment and in a moisture controlled invironment...the problem load was not from that environment.

What powder do you rec for .223. The two lbs of powder I have left were stored in a shop and are now at my house and stored in A/C indoors.

ArchAngelCD
September 3, 2010, 01:11 AM
5thSFGroup,
If you're not sure you want to continue using H335 then I suggest using Varget. I have used nothing but H335 in my .223 ammo until yesterday. I loaded up some 55gr GameKings with 25.0gr of Varget and proceeded to shoot a sub 1/2 MOA group @100 yards and just under a 1 MOA group at 200 yards. The 100 yard group measured only 0.425", I never got that using H335. I'm a convert and I'm lucky enough to have 2.5lbs of Varget with the same lot number as the ammo I built yesterday!!!

DBR
September 3, 2010, 07:01 PM
335 is temperature sensitive. Pressures can go up considerably if the cartridge gets much above 100* F. (this info is from the Hodgdon tech)

For bullets 60gr and above TAC is a good choice. It is not temperature sensitive (this info is from the Ramshot tech) and it meters better than Varget.

Mule
September 3, 2010, 08:02 PM
Is it posssible some Clays was inadvertently dumped in with the H-335?

For your own safety, do not use any more powder from that container.

If it were me, I would verify my scale for accuracy.

I would also mike the bullets. If oversized, could be creating high pressures.

snuffy
September 3, 2010, 10:18 PM
Is it posssible some Clays was inadvertently dumped in with the H-335?

For your own safety, do not use any more powder from that container.

If it were me, I would verify my scale for accuracy.

I would also mike the bullets. If oversized, could be creating high pressures.


Ridiculous! H-335 is a shiny, black, flattened ball powder. Clays is a dull gray flake powder. 5thSFgroup says he has used clays for pistol, I'm sure he knows the difference in appearance.

Seconly, if you were to put that much clays in a .223, 5thSFgroup would be badly injured, and his rifle would be destroyed. Just how does one single charge of clays get in the middle of a loading session???

Third, if one bullet was oversized enough to cause higher pressure, it wouldn't have chambered.

Think before posting. It wouldn't hurt to read the entire thread so you could know that half of what you said is impossible.

In my experience, H-335 has always flowed through my measure like water. I would never think it could bridge like an extruded/stick powder can/does.

Mule
September 4, 2010, 03:49 PM
Note to self....Snuffy knows EVERYTHING!!!!!!

chineseboxer
September 7, 2010, 04:54 AM
Bullet set back??

5thSFGroup
September 9, 2010, 12:36 PM
Sorry about the delay in posting. I have loaded more 60 grain bullets with H335 and fired them without any problem...at all. I used the recommended low end setting...23.3. I loaded these off of my equipment and inspected each case with a flash light before pressing the round. I also used my powder. The previous powder was from a friend.

The day that the problem arose, it was hotter than hell outside and the bullets had been loaded by a friend's equipment.

Snuffy is exactly right, the two powders do not look similar at all. I never leave powder in my dispenser. I clean the equipment after each use and never leave even small amounts of powder in there.

I have another friend who mentioned Ramshot as well. I may give it a try. I would hate to throw out the H335 that I have. It seems that most people are satisfied with it.

I think that I will give Ramshot a try after I use up this H335.

TonyAngel
September 9, 2010, 01:36 PM
There's a lesson in here somewhere. I never use equipment or components unless I can personally vouch for their origins. Did you smell the powder that you got from your friend before you used it? Powder does go bad, especially when not stored correctly.

As a side note, I assume that those 75s you were loading were Hornday BTHP projectiles. If so, and you get some TAC, those were stupid accurate in my AR with a relatively mild charge of TAC. Of course, you should always work up your own load, but in my rifle 22gr of TAC with a Remington 7.5 primer in LC cases made for very small groups.

A and O
September 9, 2010, 01:39 PM
Not buying it w/o photos of everything including the powder. Not calling you a liar. Just stating at this point that is the only thing that will call out the obvious. Your situation has something visual that will be obvious to outside observers.

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