Want a decent 1911... What do ya say?


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beeenbag
August 30, 2010, 08:22 PM
Well I have searched the threads and found alot of similar talk but nothing really framing my train of thought.

So if you don't mind beating a dead horse here... I found my self recently drooling over several 1911s and have made the mental commitment to push it to the top of the "want" list.

I wan't a decent gun for a decent price. Bells and whistles are not a necessity but are nice.

I would prefer something american so im not really looking at ria 1911s, but can't afford something custom like wilson combat.

I would like the best gun in the $600 to $1200 range. Wide range I know but lets see what you 1911 pros can do with it.

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earlthegoat2
August 30, 2010, 08:28 PM
Springfield Mil-Spec in stainless steel.

Good sights with a traditional 1911A1 look but in stainless so you can get away with a little neglect.

This is my favorite current production 1911. They run around 700-750 I think.

gwnorth
August 30, 2010, 08:47 PM
I got my (factory new) Colt Combat Commander for around $800 (with the tax) last year. Been extremely pleased with it and have had no issues or problems at all. It is still pure stock as it came off the shelf, including still using the factory mags at the range (I already had numerous Wilson 47DC and Chip McCormick power mags for when it's loaded off the range).

http://www.mbblack.com/pictures/Colt_2.jpg

JTQ
August 30, 2010, 08:50 PM
I would prefer something american
Springfield 1911's are from Brazil. That doesn't mean they are bad in any way. They are very fine pistols. However, at the most, the boys from Geneseo, Ill., assemble some of their higher end pistols in the USA. Springfield 1911's are made by IMBEL in Brazil.

Colt, S&W, Dan Wesson, SigSauer, Auto Ordnance, ParaUSA, Kimber, and STI (except for the Spartan) are all made in the USA.

MaterDei
August 30, 2010, 08:53 PM
They're all good. Any of the brands JTQ listed would fit your needs. I only have one 1911, a Kimber, and it has been great.

Jackal1
August 30, 2010, 09:00 PM
You can get a better gun in the under $1200 range than a Springfield Armory Mil-Spec made in Brazil...

Some of the cheapest prices can be found on Budsgunshop.com, go there and look up:
Springfield Armory Loaded (made in Brazil)
Kimber
SW1911

Yeah, JTQ has good advice.

akadave
August 30, 2010, 09:11 PM
Springfield 1911's are from Brazil. That doesn't mean they are bad in any way. They are very fine pistols. However, at the most, the boys from Geneseo, Ill., assemble some of their higher end pistols in the USA. Springfield 1911's are made by IMBEL in Brazil.

Colt, S&W, Dan Wesson, SigSauer, Auto Ordnance, ParaUSA, Kimber, and STI (except for the Spartan) are all made in the USA.
They make equally good US made guns in that range too. Buy USA, help the economy.

That said, the only 1911's I have had issues with were the 3 Springfields that I have owned.

dom1104
August 30, 2010, 09:15 PM
STI.

MikePaiN
August 30, 2010, 09:16 PM
I'm on my second Para GI Expert (http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_expert.php) and I'm thoroughly impressed. They are the best 1911 value going. Dead on accurate and solid reliability with every HP and FMJ load I've run though either, not to mention the great trigger and two nice 8r mags. At about a buy price of ~$500 you'd have a ton left over of customization and ammo.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/144/products_id/56531

tincanhunter
August 30, 2010, 09:18 PM
Here ya go.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=187695965

Keep your eye out. They do show up from time to time.

beeenbag
August 30, 2010, 09:46 PM
Im really starting to like that Para GI expert ESP. Any body know much on them?

rondog
August 30, 2010, 09:47 PM
I'd recommend a Rock Island Armory Tactical model as a starter, probably under $450 depending on the source. Yes, they're made in the Phillipines, but excellent quality for that price range. You can always buy more expensive and nicer 1911's, but RIA's are great to start with. And you could buy two for the price of some of the others with the same features and quality, just a better name.

The Tactical has the custom features, but their GI models are very good too. Also have 'em in Midsize (Commander), Compact (Officers) and 9mm versions. Doublestacks too.

CDR_Glock
August 30, 2010, 10:39 PM
Well I have searched the threads and found alot of similar talk but nothing really framing my train of thought.

So if you don't mind beating a dead horse here... I found my self recently drooling over several 1911s and have made the mental commitment to push it to the top of the "want" list.

I wan't a decent gun for a decent price. Bells and whistles are not a necessity but are nice.

I would prefer something american so im not really looking at ria 1911s, but can't afford something custom like wilson combat.

I would like the best gun in the $600 to $1200 range. Wide range I know but lets see what you 1911 pros can do with it.

There is a lot in that price range. American is not necessary, as much as the company who stands behind it. Kimber, Smith and Wesson and Dan Wesson are made in the USA. That is pretty much a production gun price range. If you are open to used, then there are a lot of choices. You didn't specify but I presume you want a Government sized 1911.

Springfield Armory Loaded 1911
Kimber Crimson Carry 1911
Kimber CDP
Kimber Raptor
Colt Gold Cup
Sig Sauer XO
Sig Sauer RCS
Smith and Wesson Pro Series 1911
Dan wesson Heritage

For used prices you can find some great deals. That's how I grabbed a Pro Raptor and Ultra Raptor.

Not too many negatives about Colts. They are solid performers. Same goes for the Smith and Wesson Pro. The slide of the Sigs are a little wider than conventional 1911s but the newer models have been more reliable. The earlier Sigs weren't worth a darn. Springfields are solid but made in Brazil. Known for their customer service, none of my friends are dissatisfied with their SA products. Kimbers get a lot of negative press but I personally like them given that they have a lot of options included: skeletonized hammers, ambi safeties, night sights, skeletonized triggers, match grade barrels, etc.

Only you can decide what suits your budget and your skills as a shooter. Good luck.

MikePaiN
August 30, 2010, 10:40 PM
Im really starting to like that Para GI expert ESP. Any body know much on them
The ESP is going to be nice with the extended beaver tail and fiber optic sights but I believe it'll run about $100 more than the standard GI Expert... Is worth it? only you can decided ;)

DasFriek
August 30, 2010, 10:41 PM
Here ya go.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=187695965
Keep your eye out. They do show up from time to time.

Any of you beer swilling fogies need a liver? Mines just slightly abused but in good shape.
Will do an even trade for this item.

ThePunisher'sArmory
August 30, 2010, 10:58 PM
Don't own one but got to shoot one. Kimber is what ill be saving my penies for!

P30shtr
August 30, 2010, 10:59 PM
Not really a 1911 guy although one is def. on my short list, everyone says, springer, RIA STI, and colt of course. One can be had from any of these manufactures in your price range.

ugaarguy
August 30, 2010, 11:09 PM
I wan't a decent gun for a decent price. Bells and whistles are not a necessity but are nice.
Based on that, get a more basic model with a good frame & slide so you have a foundation you can build on later if you want to customize. Along that train of thought a Springfield GI or Mil Spec are going to give you the best bang for the buck. Yes, they're made in Brazil, but by IMBEL, and that forged frame & slide are amongst the best in the world. After that a Colt Series 70 repro is the next best thing. The Filipino guns are pretty good for cast frames & milled slides. The Para GI Expert is not a good deal - many standard 1911 parts will not fit because they use a non-spec frame. I've yet to get my hands Remington's new R1911, so I can't tell you anything on it yet. If you want more bells & whistles than what's on standard Gov't. Model / GI Style all the folks here will be happy to lend experience should you shift the discussion that way.

You may also want to take a look at the articles by Hilton Yam over at 10-8 consulting to further educate yourself on range toy 1911s vs. fighting 1911s.

Libertatem
August 30, 2010, 11:25 PM
Thanks for this thread. Lots of 1911 threads of course, but I'm looking for something like this

get a more basic model with a good frame & slide so you have a foundation you can build on later if you want to customize.

something that can be built on, for which parts are interchangeable, that's "standard", etc.

OrangePwrx9
August 30, 2010, 11:26 PM
Dan Wesson

beeenbag
August 30, 2010, 11:51 PM
How about the quality of the colts as far as slide and frame?

BlindJustice
August 31, 2010, 12:07 AM
My shooting buddy,m Ralph, is on the cusp of getting a 1911. His budget is less than $700 so he's looking at an RIA Tactical or a Springer Mil SPec. I told him if he just wants a range gun with some bells and whistles to get theRIA but if he wants to get a 1911 at his budget price get the MIl SPec for a forged frame and slide etc tbuild on.

A Springer Mil SPec has #1 higher sights than a GI and the enlarged ejection port price that from a gunsmith and it's +$100 at least over a Gi Standrd ejection port.... then price adding a beavertail grip safety $175 as
well as a new commander syle hammer to go with beavertail and heck if you
do that buy the sear hammer and other parts that are forged cylinder and slide or egw for $150

it goes on and on....

or get a S&W 1911 it has
beavertail, long holed trigger
novak low mount sights white 3 dot - send a Mil SPec to
Novak for those sights +$200 includes sighting it in


I have a S&W 1911 base model in stainless
got it for $less than $800 3 years ago and now buds
has them if in stock for more than that. so they keep their
value. and S&Ws usually run out of the box,.

However if you want a keep forever and tweeak or build gun
get a Colt repo 70 Series - that's my next 1911 for a barsto
barrle I have

I( agree with buying american - I went to buy some camping gear a
couple of years ago and found Coleman now is all imported Chinese I
am not or try not to buy from our economic enemey

So I googled and found some camping stuff from an outfit in Arkansas
but that's another thread


Randall

TexasGunbie
August 31, 2010, 02:48 AM
Be like me and go buy a High Standard Camp Perry model 1911 for 400 dollars out the door. It shoots dead on. Finish is fine for what it's worth.

You buy cheap, you don't have to worry about scratching the gun or holster wear. Because scratch it down to the metal and your gun still worth the price you paid.

General Tso
August 31, 2010, 02:58 AM
Taurus SS 1911. Check into them. Lifetime warranty. Good price.

sprice
August 31, 2010, 03:04 AM
From research I say springfield, smith and wesson, colt, or for around 1200 Dan wesson, sti, Les Baer, or fusion/ custom Springfield or colt.

From experience I say stay far away from para ordnance. Unless reliability and customer service don't matter.

Jed Carter
August 31, 2010, 05:48 AM
For the price STI, SIG and S&W seem to have the most quality and features vs cost. STI has the best trigger IMO, Paras are ok but their double stacks and LDA pistols seem to dominate their lineup, http://budsgunshop.com may have what you want in a used 1911. I currently have Colt Springfield, STI SIG and S&W 1911s with another STI on order, been waiting since April....GO CATS!

Olympus
August 31, 2010, 10:35 AM
My thinking is that 600 to 1200 is a big range. Personally, I see a lot of improvements between a 600 gun and a 1200 gun. I think you'll start seeing the difference in detail when you start getting to the $800+ 1911s. Everybody has their favorite 1911s and most people have different opinions and everyone will have their biases. Pick out the facts and useful information from all the posts and then buy the one YOU like. Just because a bunch of people on a forum like a particular model doesn't necessarily mean that's the one for you too.

Just don't be a sheep. Buy the one you like. If it happens to be a popular model among members, then cool. If you go off the beaten path and buy something different, that's okay too. The great thing about 1911s is that there are SO many different makers and models and I can't really think of a gun in your price range that I would try to steer you away from. Buy what speaks to you the most, but be sure to post pics!

Shipwreck
August 31, 2010, 12:21 PM
From research I say springfield, smith and wesson, colt, or for around 1200 Dan wesson, sti, Les Baer, or fusion/ custom Springfield or colt.

From experience I say stay far away from para ordnance. Unless reliability and customer service don't matter.

There are no $1200 Custom Springfields, unless you get used. The Springfield TRP is in the $1200-$1300 range, but its not a custom shop gun. It is the best "standard production" 1911 out there likely.

bartman06
August 31, 2010, 01:03 PM
I had a cop buddy that went to a swat training and when he was there he talked with some of the other swat officers who carried 1911's they suggested a Taraus 1911. They said it was just like the other American one but it costs less. I myself like the Smith and Wesson but i Wouldn't say no to a Taraus when i have money again.

Zerodefect
August 31, 2010, 01:08 PM
Dan Wesson.

CZ bought them and improved on the allready steller rep that DW had. Most 1911 companies are getting worse. DW has gotton better.

The DW Valor is back in black or stainless and is by far my favorite 1911 for real work.

The Classics are priced nice. I don't think they are worse than the high end Valor and Vbob models, just lack checkering and fancy sights. Not sure really what the huge price gap is from.

Hatterasguy
August 31, 2010, 06:05 PM
I'd vote for Springfield or Colt. My Springfield was $600 and has been a very good pistol.

DRYHUMOR
August 31, 2010, 08:14 PM
I saw a Wilson Combat in a shop this morning for 1299.00. I imagine the cash price may have been a bit better. There's good stuff out there.

There is a Les Baer Stinger on GB right now with a 1099.00 start, if it was blued, I'd be on it myself.

Fremmer
August 31, 2010, 08:35 PM
Colt government model in stainless. Fits your criteria. And it is a really nice gun, check out how nice that stainless Commander looks!

HisSoldier
August 31, 2010, 08:46 PM
I've owned a few 1911's over the years, Colts, Kimber (Never again!) Remington Rand, RIA. For the best bang for the buck the RIA is great. But since buying three Dan Wessons it's hard to get excited about anything else. You can still find a DW new in GB for under $1200.

I cannot imagine ever selling a Dan Wesson 1911.

Maj Dad
August 31, 2010, 08:53 PM
At the NRA Annual Mtg Confab & Exposition I handled a Bersa Model 1911 American Classic. The factory rep disassembled it for me to look at, and I have to say I was favorably impressed with fit, finish and amenities. I have Colts, and I love my Combat Commader but I have been considering getting a rough use gun, one that I wouldn't mind getting wet or dirty. I am on the lookout for a good used piece, but if something doesn't turn up, I may spring for the Bersa. Some guy slammed his on Bud's Gunshop reviews for cosmetic problems (though they were in areas where "idiot scratches" can turn up), but 4 other guys gave it 5 stars. Ya pay's yer money & ya takes yer chances, sometimes... :rolleyes:

DustyVermonter
September 1, 2010, 06:23 AM
I have a Springfield but I'd say get a Colt, if not a Colt, get a Springfield for their customer service is leaps and bounds better than Colt's, and pretty much all others for that matter.

Oro
September 1, 2010, 02:33 PM
How about the quality of the colts as far as slide and frame?

Looks like folks skipped the posts and no one answered this. The quality of Colt frames and slides is second to none. Other makers will get a premium for squeezing/fitting the slide and rails more tightly at greater assembly expense, and it sure seems cool in the gun shop or at the show. But basically it really reduces reliability and doesn't improve accuracy a lot.

For the last several years, Colt has been leaving their slide/frame fit the same spec as always, but REALLY focusing on slide/barrel fit, which is the key to accuracy w/o sacrificing reliability. For a new gun purchase, or a used purchase of a recent production gun, I feel Colt is giving the best bang-for-buck trade-off out there right now. This hasn't always been the case. 10 to 15 years ago, Kimber and SA were really giving Colt fits in that comparison. But times have changed and so have the manufacturers, and I think the edge is to Colt now.

omegaflame
September 1, 2010, 03:34 PM
Kimber Custom Target II (or Stainless finish for +$100)

stevek
September 1, 2010, 09:59 PM
At that price point, our choices were 3 Kimber's :D

skoro
September 1, 2010, 10:06 PM
I would prefer something american

I have two recent Colt Commanders and both have been wonderful. Made in America by the original 1911 producer. Priced with their competition, too.

ugaarguy
September 1, 2010, 10:32 PM
Based on that, get a more basic model with a good frame & slide so you have a foundation you can build on later if you want to customize. Along that train of thought a Springfield GI or Mil Spec are going to give you the best bang for the buck. Yes, they're made in Brazil, but by IMBEL, and that forged frame & slide are amongst the best in the world. After that a Colt Series 70 repro is the next best thing.
In light of the below question, allow me to clarify my own statement quoted above.
How about the quality of the colts as far as slide and frame?
The current Colt frames and slides are excellent. Colt 70 series repros are your best bet, IMO, on an American made base gun to build from. I listed the Springfields in preference to Colt on the basis of bang for the buck. I specify the Colt 70 series vs. the other Colt offerings, because the latter all use Colt's 80 series firing block system, which adds unnecessary small parts. Yes, I've had a FP block plunger break on a Colt XSE Combat Commander, and render it inoperable (thankfully found during routine cleaning & function check, and not when the gun was needed). Based on that personal experience, and the published recommendations of premier 1911 gunsmiths, like Hilton Yam, who see much larger sample sizes; I will not own another 1911 with a firing pin safety. For a gun with bells and whistles, Dan Wesson offers some of the most nicely fitted & finished production 1911s I've handled (including one in 10mm which I no longer own).

ExLipscombChief
September 3, 2010, 10:51 AM
Taurus 1911. They come loaded with the bells and whistles. Lifetime warranty. The stainless will run close to $700. Contrary to popular tales told, the Taurus frame is not cast but is hammer forged steel.

Sauer Grapes
September 3, 2010, 07:51 PM
The more I read these 1911 threads, the more confussed I get on which one to buy.

ttheel
September 3, 2010, 11:43 PM
The more I read these 1911 threads, the more confussed I get on which one to buy.

Amen. It is almost impossible to get a good feel with all the strong differing opinions.

bg226
September 3, 2010, 11:45 PM
This might be going against the grain, but S&W 1911s are amazing.

CPshooter
September 3, 2010, 11:52 PM
Click the link in my sig;)

Can't beat a LB for the money. IMHO they are the best "bang for your buck" 1911 out there. Semi-custom quality and a true work of art for a price close to what "high-end" production Kimbers and Springers go for.

Atticus the Finch
September 4, 2010, 12:05 AM
I know they said Springfield's are made in Brazil but if it were me getting the 1911, I'd get the Operator. That's at the top of your price range but is worth the money (so I've been told anyway).

brandonsuperglide
September 4, 2010, 12:09 AM
Another vote for DW.
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj288/brandonsuperglide/102_1285.jpg

gwnorth
September 4, 2010, 09:24 AM
Amen. It is almost impossible to get a good feel with all the strong differing opinions.

True, so maybe all you can do is just plunge in with the best deal you find. That's what I did several years ago when I wanted to own a 1911. I just grabbed a really well priced deal on a LNIB all stainless Taurus PT1911 from the classifieds right here on THR. The gun was a great price, was offered as unfired and certainly looked it (I noticed the blackened mag followers had no drag line on them, for one thing).

That was a great pistol and I never regretted the purchase at all. I shot it monthly for over a year, while also renting and trying a few others. One thing the PT1911 taught me was that I definitely do NOT like ambi thumb safeties nor extended thumb safeties. And, while I got fairly good with them, I never really took to the Heine striaght-8 sights - they just seem odd to me.

So, I ended up selling the PT1911 and putting the money into a factory new Colt stainless Combat Commander. The size and controls of that gun suited me much better. It also impressed me enough with a Colt that I later picked up a used stainless series 80 Mk.IV gov't enhanced, which has also not failed to please and impress me. So far, I am certainly a Colt fan, and cursed when in the very midst of packing and moving I had to pass on a deal on a mint (near LNIB) original series 70 gov't at my favorite local store near my old home.

Now I have two great shooters, and have no idea what will be next. However, there will certainly be a next :D

beeenbag
September 4, 2010, 12:54 PM
Im leaning in the Dan wesson, or Colt direction. Has anybody ever had a BAD experience with either of these?

I'm really thinking the colt xse combat elite with the blued slide and stainless frame.

What do you think of it for a first 1911. My dealer said he could get it for me for $835 out the door.

JTQ
September 4, 2010, 03:08 PM
I'm really thinking the colt xse combat elite with the blued slide and stainless frame. What do you think of it for a first 1911.
I think that is a fine choice. My first 1911 was the old model Combat Elite I bought in 1991.

JTQ
September 4, 2010, 03:29 PM
The more I read these 1911 threads, the more confussed I get on which one to buy.
Excellent point. Most of the problems arise when the OP will state the following requirements
I would prefer something american so im not really looking at ria 1911s, but can't afford something custom like wilson combat.
I would like the best gun in the $600 to $1200 range.
In spite of these requirements, of the 51 posts,there are
- 11 recommendations for the Brazilian made Springfield
- 3 recommendations for the Brazilian made Taurus
- 3 recommendations for the PI made RIA (specifically said he wasn't looking at the RIA)
- 3 recommendations for the Les Baer, least expensive model $1,800+
- 1 recommendation for Wilson $2,000+ (specifically said he can't afford a Wilson)
- 1 recommendation for Bersa (Argentine?)

It's a lot less confusing if people would read the requirements and keep their answers confined to those applicable to the question.

rd2007
September 4, 2010, 03:36 PM
There are a few very vocal critics of PARA, but as an actual owner, I have no problem recommending the ESP and it matches all the requirements specified by the OP. They used to be Canadian, but are now made in North Carolina. I have had zero issues with mine and that includes shooting HPs, which many 1911s seem to have an issue with. I also haven't had any issues with the coating. The only issue I do have is taking it apart, but that goes with every 1911. I just prefer the much simpler take downs like my XDm and P64. That's how every gun should be.

mljdeckard
September 4, 2010, 03:41 PM
My Kimber Custom II is the best handgun I have ever owned. With night sights put on it will probably cost about $900 these days, and 100% American.

In all fairness, if I were to replace it tomorrow, I would probably look hard at an STI Spartan, which is an Armscor frame assembled in the U.S. by STI. I'm not sure if your preference for an American made pistol comes from patriotism or a perceived quality difference, but the truth is, the quality difference is VERY difficult to discern.

flusher
September 5, 2010, 02:23 PM
go for a pre 70 Colt Government
Here's a 1951

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l75/p0838/Img1664.jpg

KyJim
September 5, 2010, 08:59 PM
In that price range, the best American made 1911s are Colt (XSE series, especially Combat Elite), STI Trojan (Spartan is assembled out of country), and Dan Wesson Razorbacks. The other current DWs are out of the range you mentioned. Springfields are good pistols but the slide and frame are imported and then assembled in U.S.

Russ Jackson
September 5, 2010, 09:28 PM
There is so much you can do with a 1911. Decide what you are going to do with it and go from there. A carry 1911 is totally different than a standard one. Pretty versitile gun with lots of options. Some good deals on custom guns right now that you will spend alot more building youself. You might want to wait and save up...JMO...Russ

Dodger02WS6
September 5, 2010, 10:04 PM
Per you "requirments" and my personal experience.

Kimber Custom TLE II or something similar.
Dan Wesson, if you can find one you like in your price range.
Colt

jackpinesavages
September 6, 2010, 03:21 AM
STI TargetMaster. 6" .45 with Dawson FO front sight.

trillium
September 7, 2010, 08:13 AM
Magnum Research 1911 (http://www.magnumresearch.com/Browse.asp?Category=Desert+Eagle+1911:Pistols) 799$

http://www.yehida.co.il/images/kry_05.jpg

http://www.yehida.co.il/images/kry_03.JPG

Russ Jackson
September 7, 2010, 09:42 AM
You can buy Kimber Custom II 45 ACP for $699 at vancedoutdoors...Russ

Olympus
September 7, 2010, 09:50 AM
It's hard to beat a Colt Combat Elite! One of my all time favorites. I don't know how the quality of the newer ones are, but I know the older models are slick!

robctwo
September 8, 2010, 01:41 AM
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_71/products_id/11748

I have the S&W 1911PD Commander with CT grips. Great carry/nightstand gun. I have a few full sized adjustable sight guns for the range and the outdoors.

Demitrios
September 8, 2010, 02:32 AM
Dan Wesson, STI, hell you could probably even find a used Les Baer in good shape.

possum
September 8, 2010, 06:45 AM
I had a SA MC Operator, $1080 out the door, too bad it didn't run like a gun that cost that much. i own 2 xd's with crazy numbers of rounds through them so it was natural that when i wanted a 1911, i went SA, as well that is the 1911 that i always wanted.

first during approx a 700rd training session with the new 1911, the sights came loose, and almost drifted all the way out of the rear dovetail.

at approx 3,500rds the extractor broke. to say the least i was very dissapointed. i had the extractor replaced, and sold it and never looked back.

I am looking into giving the 1911 a try again, however i have stipulations for mine.
1) It will never be carried, and or used for defense
2) It will only be used at the range, and to add one to the collection.
3) It will be kept meticulously cleaned
4) it will never be shot more than 200-250rds in a single day once every few months.
5) I will never attend a training course of any kind with it.
6) It may be used in IDPA.

so for my requiremenys i am gonna look into a RIA Tactical, change the look a little, and add some things here and there and that is it.

Obviously the op said no RIA, all i can tell you is my personal experiences, and if you get a SA i hope that mine was a lemon.

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