Glock 19 and winchester 9mm NATO......


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Full Metal Jacket
August 30, 2010, 09:21 PM
http://picturearchive.auctionarms.com/2794083018/9711597/acf579f.jpg


i've had this stuff empty shell stovepipe in 2 different glock 19's. i noticed the case rims and extractor channels are malformed, sometimes barely there. i've also seen black crud in the extractor channels. only ammo that's had this issue in my glocks.

it's no wonder this stuff has proliferated the market recently....and i hope this is not what's being given to our soldiers :what:


anyone else have an issue with this ammo in any of your guns? :eek:

:o

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Hangingrock
August 30, 2010, 09:34 PM
I had (4) boxes no issues with (2) Glock pistols and (1) S&W-MP during firing.

Runningman
August 30, 2010, 09:51 PM
Could be a bad lot, what lot number? I got about 500 rounds of it 4 months ago it worked fine for me. All gone now. Accuracy wasn't as good as I typically get from 124 Gr loads though.

Rock185
August 30, 2010, 10:04 PM
I have used a few thousand rounds of this Winchester NATO ammo in Glocks, Brownings, various S&W autos and two 547 revolvers, Kimbers, HK P7M8, various SIGs, a Ruger SP101 revolver and two Marlin camp carbines. I don't recall ever having a malfunction of any kind in any of these guns using the Win. Nato ammo, or any increased fouling. Chronographed velocities have been very consistant, one indicator of quality ammunition. If I were restricted to ball ammo, this would be my choice.

I have reloaded a fair amount of the Win. NATO cases and have not come across any malformed rims or grooves or any other issues.

I realize the next case of NATO I open could have issues, but have not seen any yet.

Full Metal Jacket
August 30, 2010, 10:26 PM
Could be a bad lot, what lot number?

didn't keep the boxes. the pic is from google. i did fire them in two different g19's about a year apart, so i doubt it's a bad lot....

The Lone Haranguer
August 30, 2010, 10:42 PM
"Stovepiping" (failure to eject) in a Glock is usually something I would associate with weak ammo. Interesting.

Lonestar49
August 30, 2010, 10:42 PM
...

Have any idea on the current round counts on either Glocks return springs..?

Just a thought - pushing +P ammo on, possibly, weakening springs.. timing's off.

Like you said, and I would agree, hope this isn't an ongoing case with our military.


Ls

Full Metal Jacket
August 30, 2010, 10:45 PM
probably about 1,700 rounds through my current g19.

bg226
August 30, 2010, 11:34 PM
Could this stuff be rejected lots that they send to the civilian market? Anyways, shot a few boxes thru a G19 with no problems.

EdLaver
August 31, 2010, 12:11 AM
I tried it, no jams or malfunctions in my 92fs, but I did notice the black crud you mentioned and the accuracy issues someone else mentioned too. From now on all my bulk FMJ will be the orange/black box RWS 124gr. Now that is some fine target ammo, clean and accurate.

Full Metal Jacket
August 31, 2010, 12:20 AM
Could this stuff be rejected lots that they send to the civilian market?

that's what i was thinking....



From now on all my bulk FMJ will be the orange/black box RWS 124gr.

wonder if i can shoot that at my local. (it must pass the magnet test)

FatPants
August 31, 2010, 01:09 AM
wonder if i can shoot that at my local. (it must pass the magnet test)

Its good stuff, but it will not pass the magnet test unfortunately.

Full Metal Jacket
August 31, 2010, 01:35 AM
Its good stuff, but it will not pass the magnet test unfortunately.

oh that's too bad, heard good things. thanx for the info :)

greyeyezz
August 31, 2010, 10:38 AM
Its good stuff, but it will not pass the magnet test unfortunately.

I call BS. That bullet contains no steel or steel jacket.

bg226
August 31, 2010, 10:42 AM
I call BS. That bullet contains no steel or steel jacket.

Regarding Swiss RWS 9mm. YES! The bullets DO stick to magnets.

Runningman
August 31, 2010, 10:52 AM
I call BS. That bullet contains no steel or steel jacket.It is true. The RUAG/RWS 9mm 124 GR has a mild steel jacket and will stick to a magnet.

FatPants
August 31, 2010, 11:07 AM
I call BS. That bullet contains no steel or steel jacket.

You are welcome to your opinion... but the camera does not lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiBz6ZaJ9N4&feature=player_embedded

greyeyezz
August 31, 2010, 12:19 PM
I thought the ammo in question was the winchester 9mm NATO, sorry didn't read the thread through. Either way it would be interesting to see if rifling reaches that steel jacket through the copper.

Ben86
August 31, 2010, 01:55 PM
Does that mild steel jacket improve armor piercing capability to an appreciable degree?

highorder
August 31, 2010, 02:21 PM
Does that mild steel jacket improve armor piercing capability to an appreciable degree?

No.

In my experience (fired against 1/4" mild steel plate) it didn't produce dents any worse than copper jacketed 9mm ball I've fired, including Federal 115gr ball.

Ben86
August 31, 2010, 03:51 PM
So to be armor piercing it must actually have a steel tip?

highorder
August 31, 2010, 04:25 PM
There is a difference between what is legally considered AP, and rounds that have AP performance.

The definition of ap ammo is at 18 USC 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of ATF]

Note the following things from the definition:

1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill,
primarily by the addition of bullets intended to be used in a
handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to transfer AP ammo.
#From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above does not
constitute "making" AP ammo; making the bullets themselves does.

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be full metal jacket type
bullets with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its
weight. Thus SS109/M855 .223 bullets are not covered,
because their core is only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead
is not a listed metal, and bullets with cores made partly out of lead
are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that SS109/M855 bullets are not
covered.

5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

Zak Smith
August 31, 2010, 04:32 PM
Although not recently, I have shot many thousands of rounds of Winchester 9mm NATO ammo through Glock 19's, 17's and a variety of other pistols with no problems attributable to the ammo.

MrOldLude
August 31, 2010, 06:03 PM
Were the firearms in stock configuration?

SlimeDog
August 31, 2010, 07:01 PM
What magazines and followers are you using? I know (from personal experience with 124g Gold Dots) that the old 10-round magazine followers resulted in fairly regular nose-dives onto the feedramp. Glock has a strange habit of changing seemingly minor things like follower design with occasionally unpredictable results.

That said, with standard capacity mags, I've put 500 rounds of this stuff through my G19 with nary a failure...

Full Metal Jacket
August 31, 2010, 08:27 PM
Were the firearms in stock configuration?

ghost connector. jentra plug. LWD slide lock.


What magazines and followers are you using?

hi-cap up to date ones. born on date was the end of last year.

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