BATFE rejects SIG handguns from selection


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Quiet
August 31, 2010, 07:16 AM
BATFE is looking for a new service sidearm to replace their current issue .40S&W SIG P226/P229 pistols.
They sent out a RFP for a polymer framed full size and compact size .40S&W pistol.

SIG submitted the P250 and P250 Compact.
S&W submitted the M&P40 and M&P40C.
Glock submitted the 22 and 23.

After Phase 2 testing, the SIG pistols were dropped from the competition.
SIG appealed being dropped and BATFE rejected the appeal. (http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm)

SIG complained the testing was biased with BATFE testors favoring the S&W pistols.

BATFE gave the reasons for the rejection was due to the unreliability of the SIG P250 and P250 Compact.

Phase 2 testing was a live fire test involving 40 agents.
Agents fired 200 rounds per pistol.

Agents rated the reliability of...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact = 25% excellent, 30% very good, 25% good, 15% fair, 5% unsatisfactory.
... the S&W M&P40/40C = 52.5% excellent, 30% very good, 5% good, 5% fair, 4.5% unsatisfactory.
... the Glock 22/23 = 47.5% excellent, 32.5% very good, 7.5% good, 10% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory.

Agents rated overall assement of...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact = 15% excellent, 42.5% very good, 20% good, 12.5% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory, 7.5% no answer.
... the S&W M&P40/40C = 32.5% excellent, 35% very good, 15% good, 7.5% fair, 5% unsatisfactory, 5% no answer.
... the Glock 22/23 = 30% excellent, 27.5% very good, 22.5% good, 15% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory, 2.5% no answer.

Evaluators recorded...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact had a total of 58 malfunctions. 13 gun induced & 45 shooter induced.
... the S&W M&P40/M&P40C had a total of 16 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 16 shooter induced.
... the Glock 22/23 had a total of 9 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 9 shooter induced.

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Quiet
August 31, 2010, 07:19 AM
It also appears that the Federal Air Marshall's have stopped issueing the SIG P250 Compact (.357SIG), due to the reported unreliability from the BATFE testing.

They appear to be in a wait in see mode, with some Air Marshalls still using the SIG P229 (.357SIG) and some using the SIG P250 Compact (.357SIG).

REAPER4206969
August 31, 2010, 07:23 AM
Good post.

Oyeboten
August 31, 2010, 07:39 AM
I have always felt that G-Men or any LEO ought to supply their own Arms anyway.


I would never trust a Carpenter or Plumber who had to use Tools his boss had to buy for him, and, which his boss still owns.

That is what serfs and peons traditionally settled for.


I wish we could have grown ups in these jobs.

Not like they do not get paid more than plenty anyway, to afford their own Arm(s).

If any given unit or organization wishes to decide a particular Caliber or choice of Calibers, so be it, their personel would then elect Side Arms obliging that Caliber or Calibers.


Oye...

legion3
August 31, 2010, 07:45 AM
Numerous threads on different boards have suggested that the Sig 250 is by far (one of) Sig's worst product (s) and has always had issues.

As Sigs just don't do it for me I am not a Sig expert but many Sig fans suggested that the 250 was a poor choice to submit but that the criteria called for a certain type of gun and the 250 was the closest. The USCG seems pleased with the 229DAK so who knows why the ATF was limiting in choices for submition?

Of course the remaining two entries have started some back and forth between Glock guys and M&P guys but that's another story...;)

Roughneck08
August 31, 2010, 07:54 AM
That strikes me the air marshalls would use the .357 sig, wouldn't they be thinking of over penetration in an airplane be an issue? Don't get me wrong I love the .357 sig but just curious..

greyeyezz
August 31, 2010, 10:31 AM
That strikes me the air marshalls would use the .357 sig, wouldn't they be thinking of over penetration in an airplane be an issue? Don't get me wrong I love the .357 sig but just curious..

They may need to shoot through a seat or, God forbid, another passenger to take out a threat to the plane or something on the ground. Sounds harsh but it is what it is.

Dnaltrop
August 31, 2010, 01:58 PM
Have to say, My M&P .40 was comfortable before, and feels even better now. one bad feed in the first mag, nothing since in 900 rounds.

It's nice to see bits of justification of my choice after the fact, considering the super-low price points on the 250's nearly caught me.

I'm still ergonomically incompatible with the Glocks, held a few more at the range last week too. (bah) the gent let me feel the harder, audible trigger reset he'd put in.

I need that.

Bovice
August 31, 2010, 02:11 PM
There's a reason the P250 is so cheap.

Dnaltrop
August 31, 2010, 02:12 PM
Agreed.

Also, it's a great demonstration of the difference between Cheap and Inexpensive.

250's are cheap, CZ-82's and RIA 1911's are inexpensive.

Edit- Still want a 226 though.

rscalzo
August 31, 2010, 02:21 PM
These records show that ATF's agents recorded 58 stoppages with Sig Sauer's full-size and compact pistols, 13 of which were considered to be gun-induced and 45 shooter-induced.

Seems to me it's a training issue.


There's a reason the P250 is so cheap

MSRP between all three are within a few dollars. Cost to built a P250 is less because of the modular nature.

cougar1717
August 31, 2010, 04:49 PM
Just goes to show that there is always room for improvement, but maybe the agents just wanted Smith and Wessons this go around. In a few years when this contract is up, they might want something else.

legion3
August 31, 2010, 05:57 PM
Just goes to show that there is always room for improvement, but maybe the agents just wanted Glock this go around. In a few years when this contract is up, they might want something else.


Fixed it for ya ;)

Actually have they awarded the contract yet?

Hatterasguy
August 31, 2010, 06:02 PM
I haven't heard to many good things about that Sig, every manufacture makes a dud once in awhile.

M&P's are nice pistols, Glock too, they really can't go wrong with either.

Runningman
August 31, 2010, 07:17 PM
Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.Ouch! Think about that statement a minute. Sad to see.

wow6599
August 31, 2010, 07:27 PM
Fingers crossed for the M&P. I think it would be nice for government agencies to use American made products.

MTMilitiaman
August 31, 2010, 07:39 PM
Gimme a 'G,' gimme an 'L,' gimme an 'O,' gimme a 'C,' gimme a 'K,' what does that spell? GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK! Gooooo GLOCK!

That strikes me the air marshalls would use the .357 sig, wouldn't they be thinking of over penetration in an airplane be an issue? Don't get me wrong I love the .357 sig but just curious..

What else would they be using? There are plenty of JHPs for the .357 SIG that will get adequate but not excessive penetration. It is just like the 9mm, just faster. The added velocity is only going to help ensure expansion, which is actually going to aid in limiting penetration.

Achieving adequate penetration is necessary regardless of where the gunfight is going to take place. Fragnibles, varmint bullets, and birdshot all produce shallow, superficial wounds that are unreliable stoppers. To work, a bullet must be able to penetrate to the vitals, or you might as well not even send it.

And decompression is apparently not the issue some make it out to be. Even if an agent managed to shoot out an entire window, the plane would, by the reports I've read, just have to descend to 10,000 feet. The O2 masks might deploy, but it would hardly be catastrophic on the level portrayed by Hollywood.

legion3
August 31, 2010, 07:47 PM
I think it would be nice for government agencies to use American made products

Americans still make products? Who knew? :confused:



;)


Actually if I were a pro Glock guy I would actually want the ATF to go with the M&P's as that would mean they wouldn't have the best :neener:

Maj Dad
August 31, 2010, 07:54 PM
I was range officer this past Saturday at Manchester Range & there was a young airman from Shaw AFB with a new SIG 250. With 2 different types of ammo he had about a 50% FTFire even with multiple double-action strikes (and after ruling out the usual problems with dirt etc). I thought it odd that a SIG would do that, but maybe ATF had a similar situation (although 58/8000 isn't quite as bad as the airman's experience).

rellascout
August 31, 2010, 07:58 PM
The P250 is "cohen" Sig. It is all concept flash with no meat on the bone. It inbodies the move the metal mentality cohen has brought to Sig. I personally hope this is a wakeup call for Sig management.

Nushif
August 31, 2010, 08:02 PM
Having drank the kool-aid recently as well, I do have to admit the M&P series is a pretty damn nice gun. I was very tempted to trade my Baby Glock in for a M&P9c.

digsigs226
August 31, 2010, 08:11 PM
Fingers crossed for the M&P. I think it would be nice for government agencies to use American made products.

I'm actually pretty sure the Sig P250 is made exclusively in Exeter, NH... and I believe much of the final design work was done there as well.

I love Sig, but I have noticed a general decline in there products in the past few years. The P250 seems like a stillborn, and I know the P238 has had recalls as well. The new 1911, however, seems like a good product (I guess it's hard to screw that one up).

You may prefer American, but these days I'm glad my 226 is German made. :neener:

jeepguy
August 31, 2010, 08:51 PM
i really like sigs but dont care for the 250 at all. i would like a p228/229 in 9mm some day & my p226 .40 has been great.

Zerodefect
August 31, 2010, 10:05 PM
The Kimber ghosts live at Sig now. I saw it in the news.

DenaliPark
August 31, 2010, 10:14 PM
Never was impressed with the P250, also feel the P226/229 is kind of overrated, though that doesn't mean I don't like them, its just not equal to its price tag. In fact I have a CZ-75PO1 which easily out performs my 226, and it came home at just about half the price.

killchain
August 31, 2010, 10:23 PM
Seems to me it's a training issue.



MSRP between all three are within a few dollars. Cost to built a P250 is less because of the modular nature.
Modular nature aka chintzy design.

Inaccurate is an understatement. Those P250's can't hit the air you're shooting into.

I owned a P250. The trigger was terrible, and the whole gun was just rickety. And for the mammoth size of the .45ACP model, it only held ten rounds.

I sold it and bought an FNP45.

SgtCuts
August 31, 2010, 11:23 PM
"I have always felt that G-Men or any LEO ought to supply their own Arms anyway.


I would never trust a Carpenter or Plumber who had to use Tools his boss had to buy for him, and, which his boss still owns.

That is what serfs and peons traditionally settled for.


I wish we could have grown ups in these jobs.

Not like they do not get paid more than plenty anyway, to afford their own Arm(s).

If any given unit or organization wishes to decide a particular Caliber or choice of Calibers, so be it, their personel would then elect Side Arms obliging that Caliber or Calibers.


Oye... "




I couldn't agree more as someone who has been a LEO and has a family of LEO's there is no way I feel comfortable with any situation where a firearm has been issued too me until I have fired at least 1000 rounds through it and have done a full detail strip clean and lube and have it checked by a smith. It would be 10 times easier to just bring my own weapon for service duty but there are huge legal issues in certain circumstances. So in short that subject is a double edged blade!!!

Zoogster
September 1, 2010, 12:06 AM
And decompression is apparently not the issue some make it out to be. Even if an agent managed to shoot out an entire window, the plane would, by the reports I've read, just have to descend to 10,000 feet. The O2 masks might deploy, but it would hardly be catastrophic on the level portrayed by Hollywood.


This is also as much of a myth as the one from Hollywood.

When there is a large gap in a portion of the airframe that is not meant to withstand the added stress of airflow at that point going several hundred miles per hour it can in fact rip off a substantial portion of aircraft. Being the venting point for the compressed air of the cabin will help push material outwards (like the skin of the aircraft), where the airflow will be even better able to snag and tear it from the plane.


Any good size hole in the airframe will cause massive airflow into the cabin, and in certain areas of the aircraft direct the airflow straight into the cabin. Some areas would be much worse with a hole than others. Several hundred mile per hour wind can destroy quite a bit. Anything from ripping an even larger hole, to sucking many thing outside the aircraft, to creating further damage in the aircraft.

The pilot acting quickly can minimize additional damage.

Here is a decompression caused by the cargo door of the aircraft opening at altitude (and getting torn off as a result):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811

In the business-class section, a grinding noise was heard, followed by a loud thud which rattled the whole aircraft — 1½ seconds later the forward cargo-door blew out abruptly. The pressure differential caved in the floor above the door, causing two rows of seats (8G-12G and 8H-12H) and an individual in 9F to be ejected from the cabin, resulting in nine fatalities and leaving a gaping hole in the aircraft.

And that is a door coming off, a substantially stronger and reinforced section of the aircraft. A random hole in an area without a door frame would be even more likely to rip a good chunk of aircraft away with it.
Hopefully stopping before it takes too much of the aircraft with it or causes a loss in structural stability.

The problem? The cargo door latch gave out. On a good aircraft a mere door opening at altitude tore a large chunk of the aircraft off and sucked people and seats out.


Another sudden decompression with a better result:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

The skin of the aircraft peeled off a significant portion of the roof, and one person was sucked out of the aircraft. Presumably most passengers still had seat belts on.


Now small bullet holes typically shouldn't allow enough airflow to cause such problems, but a sudden hole of baseball size or greater certainly could, as could a lucky bullet that tore off a chunk larger than itself.

CPshooter
September 1, 2010, 12:17 AM
Doesn't surprise me one bit. The only Sig worth owning IMHO: non-railed P229 .40/.357

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n106/TonyG749/3-1.jpg

REJones
September 1, 2010, 12:54 AM
There are other good Sigs. My P226 is quite new and has been fantastic. I just got a P239 which I also like.

I think the problem with the P250 is that it's designed to use multiple calibers. From an engineernig standpoint that would have to involve compromises - going from high pressure high velocity rounds like .357 Sig to low pressure rounds like .45 ACP shouldn't really be attempted in the same gun. It's got to throw the timing off considerably, not to mention making your pistol bigger than it needs to be. It's kind of like expecting the BATFE (or anybody) to buy a Glock 21 and then use conversion barrels to bring it to your caliber of choice - only an idiot would go for that on a large scale.

Roughneck08
September 1, 2010, 02:22 AM
Thank you, Zoogster for your answer that is what I was curious about.

Jed Carter
September 1, 2010, 05:47 AM
I have 5 SIGs and I rejected the P250 sight unseen, the modular idea just did not appeal to my better judgment. Wonder why Springer stayed away?

REAPER4206969
September 1, 2010, 05:49 AM
Wonder why Springer stayed away?
What?

Jed Carter
September 1, 2010, 06:00 AM
Just wondered if Springfield felt that the XD would not be competitive or the testing would be biased? I do not own any SA except the 1911s, may get an M1 rifle someday, but the XDs and XDm are not on my want list. May be a reason that there are few LEA that use the XD... if any.

REAPER4206969
September 1, 2010, 06:06 AM
SA will not submit the XD for LE trials.

legion3
September 1, 2010, 06:55 AM
SA will not submit the XD for LE trials.

Two questions.

1. Why not?

and


2. Can they?

Since Springfield is only the importer and HS Produkt of Croatia is the maker, what kind of deal do the two have? I assume that SA can market the gun how they see fit but could they commit the maker to a large leo order?
And if they can then why not try.

Just wondering :confused:

REAPER4206969
September 1, 2010, 07:04 AM
1. Why not?
Because they know it will fail. They don't want the bad press.

2. Can they?
I can't imagine any sidearm manufacture not wanting a multi million dollar contract.

rscalzo
September 1, 2010, 01:19 PM
Inaccurate is an understatement. Those P250's can't hit the air you're shooting into.

Quite frankly mine are just the opposite. Sig could have packed more 45ACP rounds into the frame. Making it even larger or longer. The ammo is a finite size requiring a fixed amount of space.

The modular design is no weaker than that of my Glocks. Where they failed was in thinking many would go for the one frame, many conversion kits. In that area they did fail in my opinion.

Ben86
September 1, 2010, 01:34 PM
The submission of the p250 for this contract was a P.R. stunt gone bad. They should have submitted the 2022 instead. I've heard they've started making more 2022s because of this debacle.

Go S&W! Show those Austrians they can't take over the world! :)

Maj Dad
September 1, 2010, 09:52 PM
The P250 is "cohen" Sig. It is all concept flash with no meat on the bone. It inbodies the move the metal mentality cohen has brought to Sig.

Cohen? Member of he Cohanim, or is this a CEO, etc.? Certainly not a reference to Jews, surely? No reproach if not so, just clarifying.

legion3
September 1, 2010, 10:24 PM
Ron J. Cohen
President and Chief Executive Officer

Ron J. Cohen is President and Chief Executive Officer of SIG SAUER®.


http://www.sigsauer.com/AboutUs/ManagementDetails.aspx?BioId=2

Casaba
September 1, 2010, 10:56 PM
Bought a 250... dumped it for a loss after one range trip, went with the P229 instead and I LOVE it

Thatguy686
September 2, 2010, 01:54 AM
dont get me wrong here all the guns mentioned are pretty good but the first mistake was getting rid of the 226 and 229

Thatguy686
September 2, 2010, 01:59 AM
oh and reaper the xd series would do better than the m&p series easily and prolly the glock and sig also im talking reliability and accuracy with consistency the reason why le wont go with them is incase the operator has a injury and has to use one hand to work the slide which with the rear grip safety would make it difficult

REAPER4206969
September 2, 2010, 02:09 AM
oh and reaper the xd series would do better than the m&p series easily and prolly the glock
O.K.

REAPER4206969
September 2, 2010, 02:11 AM
but the first mistake was getting rid of the 226 and 229
You lug around those heavy rust buckets all day in a suit while stepping on kittens and report back.

Ben86
September 2, 2010, 11:16 AM
oh and reaper the xd series would do better than the m&p series easily and prolly the glock and sig also im talking reliability and accuracy with consistency the reason why le wont go with them is incase the operator has a injury and has to use one hand to work the slide which with the rear grip safety would make it difficult

Just what do you have against periods and capital letters?

I think they *prolly* are not made quite as rugged as the Glock and M&P and would fail the required durability test.

Maj Dad
September 2, 2010, 10:31 PM
Ron J. Cohen is President and Chief Executive Officer of SIG SAUER®.

Does this guy have any firearms experience/background? You'd think the lessons of other makers that went cheap would be cautionary, but CEOs get their huge bonuses based on corporate profit and not product quality. Kind of like corporate raiders or seagull managers (fly in screechng like a banshee, grab all the goodies in sight, crap all over everything and then fly off). I can tell you I'll not consider the new SIGs with that in mind... :scrutiny:

REAPER4206969
September 2, 2010, 10:43 PM
Does this guy have any firearms experience/background?
He was the CEO for Kimber.

Kymasabe
September 2, 2010, 11:34 PM
I've had Sigs, had a P226, a P229 and a P239. The P226 was my all-around favorite. I also had a P250 recently and having had one, I totally understand the 45 user-caused failures of the P250. And, unless you've owned and shot one, it's hard to understand. The P250 isn't the usual DA/SA that Sig uses, it's DAO. The trigger pull is light and smooth but looooong, ridiculously long, as is the reset too. I've really enjoyed shooting just about every SIG I've owned but the P250 was a disaster that I couldn't wait to get rid of. When shooting slowly, doing some bullseye shooting, it wasn't too bad. But, when doing double-taps on silhouette's, there were plenty of times I pulled the trigger and nothing happened because I hadn't fully let out the trigger and allowed it to reset. Trigger pull and reset is too long. It deserves to be dropped from the testing, if issued, could cost lives. SIG has a decent pistol in the P250 if they could just iron out that damn trigger problem.
The SIG 2022 would have been a better gun to submit for testing.

Full Metal Jacket
September 3, 2010, 05:13 AM
Because they know it will fail. They don't want the bad press.

LMAO!

Full Metal Jacket
September 3, 2010, 05:17 AM
the xd series would do better than the m&p series easily and prolly the glock and sig also im talking reliability and accuracy with consistency the reason why le wont go with them is incase the operator has a injury and has to use one hand to work the slide which with the rear grip safety would make it difficult


:eek:

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