Remington 1911 Observations


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1911Tuner
September 3, 2010, 01:44 PM
A friend brought Remington's entry into the 1911 market by here so I could get the inside story.

The pistol is equipped with the Colt Series 80 fire control system.

The MIM parts are as follows:

Slide stop. Mainspring Housing. Sear. Plunger tube likely but unproven because I didn't remove it to look for the sprue marks.

Cast parts:

Grip safety. Hammer. Disconnect. Thumb safety. Firing pin stop.

Also observed was a Springfield one-piece stainless steel barrel, a Colt hammer strut, and a Colt sear spring.

The thumb safety is the old, USGI type with small thumb pad, which I like very much.

Grip safety is the standard spur type, which I also like.

Slide and frame are machined barstock, and nicely done. Light machining marks were visible, but no roughness in the marks was noted. The ejection port was lowered and had a nice rollout notch.

The sights were large, blocky 3-dot style, and were highly visible. Oddly enough, the gun was equipped with a short, serrated
aluminum trigger and a flat mainspring housing...which I like, even with my large hands.

Fit and finish was very good, and all small parts appeared to be of good quality. Slide to frame fit was very good ordnance spec with minimal play. Barrel fit was very good, with zero movement when pressed.

Barrel to bushing fit was fairly tight. With the gun in battery, it was necessary to back up on the slide to turn the bushing by hand.

Bushing to slide fit was also very good with no gap at the slide and no "rocking" when tested.

My suspicion...and this is no more than that...is that the slide and frame came from Colt, along with a few other parts.

The Springfield barrel is unmistakeable, as is the Colt sear spring and hammer strut design.

Overall, a pretty good-lookin' pistol that seems to be aimed at competing with Springfield's standard Mil-Spec. The only drawback for me is that it comes with the Colt design Series 80 system. Not a deal-breaker if I was
in the market for a new low-frills 1911, but I prefer that it didn't have that particular feature.

That's about it. Ted said that he's going to shoot it today and give me the report.

.

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Jolly Rogers
September 3, 2010, 02:00 PM
Glad to hear that the frame is machined barstock. I had read it was cast.
Joe

1911Tuner
September 3, 2010, 05:18 PM
Well...A cast frame is really neither here nor there. Remington doesn't rate the gun okay for P+, which raised some concerns as to whether the slide was cast.

Not a bad pistole' for the money. I guess more reports will come in as more of'em are sold.

9mmepiphany
September 3, 2010, 07:41 PM
Interesting, thanks for the info. It worried me when the Remington reps at SHOT wouldn't say where the parts came from...my first thought was the South Pacific

The Lone Haranguer
September 3, 2010, 09:32 PM
Some pictures I've seen showed some pretty rough work, and these were gun rag photos. The proof, of course, will be in the actual shooting.

ulflyer
September 3, 2010, 09:32 PM
Put 60 rounds of reloads thru it this PM with no malfunctions at all. After getting it zeroed in...moving rear sight a bit and filing down front...I got a one inch group of 5 shots in one target, and on a couple targets about 2 inch groups. For these 76 YO eyes thats pretty good, better than I do with my Colt 1991a1. I'm real pleased with it and the only downside is they didn't include a tiny allen wrench to adjust the sights with. I have small ones that came with other sights but none were small enough. Am going to contact Remington to see what they say. :uhoh:

1911Tuner
September 3, 2010, 10:19 PM
Some pictures I've seen showed some pretty rough work, and these were gun rag photos.

No doubt that there will be some variation, especially in the ealiest examples...but the one I looked at today was nicely done inside and out.

Ted...You'll have to let me give it a try as soon as the weather cools off enough for me to want to go to the range. I'd like to see how it fares with my old reliable/go-to range load. I've also got a few hundred 200 grainers loaded up with 4 grains of Bullseye that's a proven tack-driver in several of my pistols.

Full Metal Jacket
September 3, 2010, 11:31 PM
:eek:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3018.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_2994.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_2997.jpg

the ejector is sunk in a little so there is a strange shadow from the slide making it look like it's stepped.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3003.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3000.jpg[/QUOTE]

Full Metal Jacket
September 3, 2010, 11:32 PM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3006.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3020.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3021.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3026.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3027.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3028.jpg
......

Full Metal Jacket
September 3, 2010, 11:34 PM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3046.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3047.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3048.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3049.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3050.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3051.jpg.......

Full Metal Jacket
September 3, 2010, 11:35 PM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3060.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3061.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3062.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3063.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3064.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_3066.jpg

Full Metal Jacket
September 3, 2010, 11:39 PM
:eek:

wow6599
September 3, 2010, 11:42 PM
Is that an Ed Brown Special Forces? ;)

Ridgerunner665
September 3, 2010, 11:45 PM
Thank You for the review Tuner...

Looks like Remington did OK, except for the series 80 deal...like you say though, its not the end of the world. But I'd rather not have it on my guns.

HisSoldier
September 4, 2010, 12:15 AM
My suspicion...and this is no more than that...is that the slide and frame came from Colt, along with a few other parts.


Slide and frame are machined barstock, and nicely done.

I guess I have a lot to learn. I'd have argued that Colt made forged frames, but you said the frame is bar stock?

With my background I'd prefer a bar stock frame over a cast one, just slightly, but I had no idea anyone machined frames from bar stock.

I own some great guns with cast frames.

BK
September 4, 2010, 12:38 AM
The pics that FMJ has posted from quack's R1, illustrate a little. I can live with about half of what I'm seeing there, but there are a few issues that would make me grind my teeth, even though it's an entry level 1911 made by Remington. Nothing surprising though.

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 07:38 AM
Wow. That's pretty rough. Quite a difference between that one and the one I saw yesterday. It even appears that there are different materials. Wonder what's up with that...

Looking at these pictures, it seems that their quality and consistency is all over the place. I hope that the learning curve will be short. If not, then their tenure probably will be.

HisSoldier...I doubt if you'll find any true forged frames. They're forged to rough shape and finish machined. The frame isn't the real concern anyway. The slide is the part that takes the heavy stress.

ulflyer
September 4, 2010, 08:12 AM
1911Tuner: Anytime you want to give it a workout, give me shout and I'll meet you at your range. Got a couple of GI mags for you anyway...forgot to bring them yesterday. I'll bring a few of my light loads of Clay powder just so you can see what I shoot.
When I cleaned it yesterday after 60 lead bullets it didn't take much for it to come clean with Hoppes 9. Gonna try it with some factory loads (WWB) today to see how they do.

DasFriek
September 4, 2010, 08:39 AM
While doing my monthly gun store crawl which i visit as many as i can and see whats new on the shelves and new stuff to drool over i had to do a double take as one place had a used Rem 1911 in the USED case. $499 BTW.

Just seemed odd for such a new gun on the market making to the used shelf so quick. I still dont read that it was a lemon as gun people do so many weird things when they see something else they want.

The pics posted are very nice and fun to see it internally.
With the street price ive been seeing at $650 i find it a bit hard to think about choosing this over a Springfield or even a Colt and Kimber which can be had at $150 more.
Imo it looks like a $500 gun, And mabey that will happen once the gun settles into the market and not being a new item to the 1911 world.

The Lone Haranguer
September 4, 2010, 09:09 AM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Quackzilla/Remington%201911/DSC_2994.jpg
Some of it is due to the macro photography, but that grip safety looks poorly mated to me. Those edges and gaps are a recipe for hand biting.

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 10:07 AM
Some of it is due to the macro photography, but that grip safety looks poorly mated to me. Those edges and gaps are a recipe for hand biting.

It does, for sure. That was one of the things that I looked at on ulflyer's pistol, and it looked good.

Your picture looks like the mating of a .220 radius frame tang with a .250 radius grip safety. Unless the safety is bad outta whack...maybe these are Imbel/Springfield frames, and Remington didn't get the word on the grip safety radius match-up requirement.

DPris
September 4, 2010, 02:46 PM
Those images clearly show a cast frame.
Denis

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 03:04 PM
Those images clearly show a cast frame.
Denis

Yep...but the one that I had on the table wasn't. I looked into the frame and slide carefully with a strong light. I saw zero ragged edges, no parting lines, casting flash, or any indication that it was anything except machined barstock.

oasis618
September 4, 2010, 03:39 PM
It looks better than some pictures of Nighthawks I've seen...

oasis618
September 4, 2010, 03:40 PM
:eek:

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 03:54 PM
I'm starting to wonder if Remington isn't assembling these pistols on whatever slide and frame overrun that they can get from various sources and manufacturers. Given the wide separation of quality and reports...ranging from "Excellent!" to "This thing is a dog." I have to wonder what the inside story is. That may be why they refuse to respond when asked where they get their parts...because the truth is that they can't tell from one run to the next.

As more of them start to appear, a clearer picture will emerge. I'll report what I see.

Stay tuned. (No pun intended)

HisSoldier
September 4, 2010, 04:46 PM
HisSoldier...I doubt if you'll find any true forged frames. They're forged to rough shape and finish machined.

I would assume no one provides an "as forged" frame (:p) no matter how good it is it will need machining.

But bar stock means something entirely different and very specific to me. I buy bar from the mill and cut it to blank length and start machining. (My company does this tens of thousands of times every year).

Does Colt make any frames from bar stock? I admit I'm ignorant of how Colt works, but thought they started with (as you said) rough forgings and machined most of the surfaces.

I also agree that it's probably not important to add the slight increase in strength forging would provide for a frame.
But to me a forging should reduce machining time from bar about 50%, and I'm surprised to hear that anyone is doing that.

In other words I assumed there were two common ways of starting, either with a casting or a forging.

Full Metal Jacket
September 4, 2010, 05:07 PM
Slide and frame are machined barstock, and nicely done.


the R1's frame is cast......and you think it's "nicely done"? :eek:

Full Metal Jacket
September 4, 2010, 05:08 PM
Does Colt make any frames from bar stock?

no, they're all forged. there's a difference.

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 05:22 PM
the R1's frame is cast......and you think it's "nicely done"?

This one was, and I could find no evidence that it was a casting...and I looked hard. If this particular one was a casting, it's one of the best I've ever seen. It may not be representative of all the Remingtons, but so far, it's the only one that I've seen.

HisSoldier:

I understand the difference, but the finish machining process is the same. The cuts interrupt the grain and create stress risers, and there are a lot of cuts on a 1911 frame. Barstock can be hammer forged into any rough shape desired, and it retains its structural integrity until it's machined.

But, again...far too much concern is expressed over the frame. It's the slide that absorbs the heavy stress...not the frame. The slide and barrel assembly is the gun. The frame is essentially no more than a gun mount.

Full Metal Jacket
September 4, 2010, 05:25 PM
This one was, and I could find no evidence that it was a casting...and I looked hard. If this particular one was a casting, it's one of the best I've ever seen. It may not be representative of all the Remingtons, but so far, it's the only one that I've seen.

never seen one in a gunshop, or online, that had a forged frame. can you post a pic? thanx

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 05:27 PM
That's up to ulflyer. I don't have the gun.

DPris
September 4, 2010, 05:36 PM
The frame has to resist battering, it's not just the slide that endures heavy stresses.
You can clearly see rounded edges on the frame in the frame in the photos supplied that are not normally left in machining processes.
Dunno what you saw, but unless Remington's changed specs it was a casting. An adequate one, but not the best.

And, Colt obtains rough frame & slide forgings from an outside source. They are then machined in-house.
Denis

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 06:19 PM
The frame has to resist battering, it's not just the slide that endures heavy stresses.

I understand very well what the frame endures...but it doesn't undergo the same sorts of stresses that the slide absorbs. Caspian went to cast frames some time ago, and have had no problems to speak of. They stick with machined steel slides, however...and for good reason. Centerfire bolt-action rifles with wooden stocks endure far more stress than any 1911 frame, and they do it for thousands of rounds...because the barrel and bolt make up the gun, and the stock is the gun mount.

Back on topic...

If the slide and frame that I saw were cast, I could find ZERO evidence of it. I don't pay much attention to the surface finish, especially on a bead blasted matte finish. I look inside for flash, parting lines, and irregularities in the surface. I couldn't find any...even with a strong light...slide or frame.

And again...these observations were made on one gun. It's the only one I've seen. If I get the chance to look at more, I'll report on those, too...but I can't do that until I see another one.

DPris
September 4, 2010, 06:25 PM
Tuner,
Wasn't suggesting that a cast frame is automatically a bad frame. There are degrees.
Even what I'd consider a mediocre casting in terms of surface treatment can handle most stresses involved.

But- the frame does get beaten by the barrel on recoil. :)

Denis

Full Metal Jacket
September 4, 2010, 06:33 PM
Wasn't suggesting that a cast frame is automatically a bad frame. There are degrees.

it's visual quality of the internal parts in those pics that has me looking like this: :eek:

oasis618
September 4, 2010, 06:51 PM
:eek:

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 06:56 PM
But- the frame does get beaten by the barrel on recoil.

Not much. The slide hits it pretty hard, though.

I'll relate a little experience that I had with cast slides.

About 10 years ago, my ex-stepson approached me about building a pistol. He was short on cash, so he opted for an Essex slide and frame for a base, even though I warned him about the cast slide.

He's also a bullet caster and reloader, so he shot the gun hard as was his reason for building it...to get practice while preserving his pristine mid-60s production Colt.

At roughly 10,000 rounds, he busted the first slide where they normally let go...in the left corner just forward of and adjacent to the breechface...up to and through the port. (This particular failure is due to recoil stresses rather than impact with the frame.)

It went back to Essex, where they cherry-picked another one with the same specs. It came back with a warning to refrain from shooting handloads...along with the notification that they wouldn't warranty another one...but his load of choice was perfectly safe, and well below +P levels. He's been using the same one for years. (4 grains Bullseye with a 200-grain lead SWC)

The second slide let go in the same place, at approximately the same round count. He was convinced, and shopped the gun shows until he found a good Series 80 Colt top end assembly. With a few minor adjustments, the gun was back up and running. He's since logged about 30,000 rounds on the gun without further problems. The frame is still good to go.

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 07:01 PM
Now then...If there's anyone else who has one of the the Remington 1911 clones and you're within driving distance of my place...and you don't mind dogs...I'd like to have the opportunity to look at another one. Bonus if it's a rough example. A rough one will reveal more than a nice one.

DPris
September 4, 2010, 08:51 PM
I've got a new Colt DE 10mm that's showing faint signs of impact from the barrel on the frame. The frame takes a couple good hits on every shot fired, between barrel & slide.
Denis

ulflyer
September 4, 2010, 09:29 PM
Dasfriek: I paid $589 + tax at local shop thats not cheapest around but has excellent service. Could have got it for few bucks less, but its worth it to me to support local shop.

1911Tuner
September 4, 2010, 09:39 PM
Even though we've veered a little off topic...since I started the thread, I'll go ahead and do a condensed explanation of how the pistol functions....in the interest of furthering your understanding.

Any time you have steel to steel contact at speed, you'll get signs of impact eventually. You can wear a railroad spike down with a tack hammer if you keep at it long enough.

The question is...How hard does it impact? How much momentum does the barrel have when it hits the Vertical Impact Surface? The answer is...not much. If it did, the barrel's lower lug would be destroyed in short order.

The barrel doesn't hit the VIS when the gun fires. It hits it after the bullet is long gone, and after the link has pulled it out of the slide. Since momentum is Mass X Velocity, and the barrel's mass is relatively low...there isn't much impact energy imparted to the impact surface. Additionally, because the link causes the barrel to change directions from straight back to down on an arc...the link itself is bleeding speed and momentum from the moving barrel...so it doesn't hit the VIS with a full head of steam.

The slide has a higher mass than the barrel, but the slide is being decelerated by the recoil/action spring from the instant it starts to move...so the impact energy...while higher than the barrel's...isn't all that great. The impact abutment is designed to absorb that many tens of thousands of times.

The real force...recoil impulse...is absorbed by the barrel and slide lugs because they engage horizontally in opposition as the bullet hits the rifling and yanks hard forward on the barrel while the equal/opposite force is slamming the slide backward at the same time....under whatever level of force is imparted by about 20,000 pounds per square inch of pressure...applied over the course of a millisecond or two.

The heavy, most damaging stresses are in the slide and barrel. The frame's job is a cakewalk by comparison.

When the US government adopted the 1911 pistol, they ordered a dozen or more slides and barrels for every complete pistol delivered. They understood that the slides would be replaced many times before the frames became unserviceable.

Full Metal Jacket
September 4, 2010, 09:44 PM
:eek:

SuperNaut
September 4, 2010, 11:32 PM
I vote THR eliminates the EEK smiley.

DPris
September 4, 2010, 11:49 PM
Tuner,
Understand the operation, just saying the frame does undergo stresses too.
You've seen cracks in them, so have I, and frame battering also occurs.
To return to the OP, the Remington's cast frame is not a condemnation of the pistol, just noting it IS a cast frame. At least in the photos shown. :)
Denis

Full Metal Jacket
September 4, 2010, 11:55 PM
I vote THR eliminates the EEK smiley.

:eek:

bannockburn
September 5, 2010, 01:49 AM
1911 Tuner

I believe the new Remington R1 is made by a company called ERPC and that they're located in either North or South Carolina. I looked at one a couple of weeks ago and the gunshop owner (also an accomplished M1911 gunsmith), went over the gun with me. This was only the second one they had gotten in and he wanted to check it for himself as well. All the materials in the box state that the gun is being made for Remington by this ERPC company. He tried looking them up online, but couln't find any mention of them. He thought that the frame was cast, and that on this particular model, the barrel to slide fit, while not bad, could have been better. Overall the rest of the gun appeared to have a fairly decent fit and finish. In comparing the R1 with some other M1911's in the shop, he found a couple of American Tactical .45's that actually had a better barrel to slide set-up. Their only downside is that they may not accept other companies M1911 parts. The R1 retailed for about $650; the AT's were priced at around $440.

DasFriek
September 5, 2010, 01:57 AM
Dasfriek: I paid $589 + tax at local shop thats not cheapest around but has excellent service. Could have got it for few bucks less, but its worth it to me to support local shop.

As long as thats a new price i wouldn't complain. The gun i was referring too was used at $499, I was just surprised to see a used one so fast sitting on a shelf for resale.

Full Metal Jacket
September 5, 2010, 02:50 AM
I believe the new Remington R1 is made by a company called ERPC

nope.



from remington's website:



These guns are built in our manufacturing facility in Ilion, NY.

E-RPC is the name of the company that contracted Remington to make these firearms. E-RPC is not an acronym, it is the company name.


http://www.1911r1.com/pages/FAQs.aspx

oasis618
September 5, 2010, 03:19 AM
:eek:
:eek:

1911Tuner
September 5, 2010, 07:18 AM
just saying the frame does undergo stresses too

I never said that it didn't. I said that the stresses absorbed by the frame are miniscule compared to those on the slide.

I'm pretty well convinced that the frames and slides on the R1s are in fact cast. I couldn't find any evidence of that in the one that I saw...and I'm not easy to hide a casting from...but it could have simply been an outstanding example. I'm not concerned with a cast frame. If they're good castings, they'll do well. The slides do concern me, and this is very likely why Remington doesn't rate the pistols for +P ammunition, and if the slides are also cast...don't expect the Remington clone to be a durable pistol for hard use. Rock Island/Armscorp learned that lesson the hard way, and they finally caved in and went to machined steel slides.

As I start to encounter more of the guns, I'll report what I see. I don't have a dog in this fight, and if Remington never sells another one, it won't mean a thing to me. However, I do think that they should disclose what their pistols are made of. Evading a pertinent question is, to me...a little suspect.

Zerodefect
September 5, 2010, 08:58 AM
If they were made of forged steel, thier marketing team would be screaming that in every add. it's probally cast.

......then again DW hardly mentions on thier site that they use 0 MIM parts. So maybe todays marketing just stinks.

Quack
September 5, 2010, 04:39 PM
thanks for posting up the pics FMJ, been busy working.
The photo's were taken using a 90mm Macro lens.

i bought mine in June (i think), so it's one of the early one's, so things may have changed.

as for E-RPC, here's some info that I was able to find when i was doing the initial research on the 1911-R1.

On Wednesday, January 13, 2010, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for ERPC. This trademark is owned by RA Brands, L.L.C., 870 Remington Drive, Madison, NC 27025.

The address above is Remington's Corporate address. Maybe they did this so that it would not affect the shotgun and rifle business.

and from Remington's website:
What does E-RPC® Stand for?
E-RPC is the name of the company that contracted Remington to make these firearms. E-RPC is not an acronym, it is the company name.

i wonder if it might stand for Elipahet Remington Pistol Company?

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