California ban on open carry of unloaded firearms defeated.


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hso
September 9, 2010, 10:40 AM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g3n4JLfF2DKM4OBqx3wrZwO2QRcgD9HUVUBO0

California rejects a bill that would have made it illegal to carry unloaded guns in public.

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Heavies
September 9, 2010, 11:08 AM
Wow. Cali rejecting any type of gun ban seems like a step in the right direction to me.:)

ForumSurfer
September 9, 2010, 11:18 AM
This is incredible news. I had to double check my calendar since this looks like an April 1st type post. Finally, some good news out of Cali!

Zeeemu
September 9, 2010, 11:51 AM
For California it's a move in the right direction (I suppose) but why would anyone want to openly carry around an unloaded firearm? One might as well carry a hammer, less conspicuous and more effective for self defense.

ForumSurfer
September 9, 2010, 12:49 PM
why would anyone want to openly carry around an unloaded firearm?

In support of RKBA I suppose.

Sgt.Saputo
September 9, 2010, 01:38 PM
this looks like an April 1st type post.

This, :D

hso
September 9, 2010, 01:44 PM
Zeeemu,

Open carry of unloaded firearms is legal in California. RKBA activists started using that as a means of non-violent protest at beach cleanups and public presentations to get people's attention and to make people aware of RKBA issues. Once that started, an attempt was made to make it illegal to OC an unloaded firearm. That attempt was defeated.

millertyme
September 9, 2010, 03:22 PM
you can still carry a grip of fully loaded 10 round magazines.

Zeeemu
September 10, 2010, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the background info, HSO. Millertyme's suggestion seems doable - if practiced frequently.
However, in a self defense situation that course of action might only allow second place status, i.e., dead - or wounded and prosecuted.
In California I think my first choice might be a good pair of running shoes.
Hmmm, I wonder what the Governator would do?

millertyme
September 10, 2010, 01:19 PM
Does unloaded mean no magazine or does it mean no bullets in the chamber by their law? Could you have a loaded magazine but not a loaded handgun?

hso
September 10, 2010, 02:15 PM
you can still carry a grip of fully loaded 10 round magazines.

No, a round of any sort in the weapon, chambered or in the mag in the weapon is going to be "loaded". Carry a magazine out of the weapon may be too fine a distinction for many law enforcement officers and you'll end up dealing with the issue in the police station or in court.

Remember that the law that was killed was an attempt to stop RKBA activists from carrying empty holstered firearms to generate RKBA interest. There was nothing about being able to carry for defense.

zoom6zoom
September 10, 2010, 02:46 PM
why would anyone want to openly carry around an unloaded firearm?
In many jurisdictions it's a choice between this and going unarmed, since CC permits can be very hard to get in many areas of the state.

I applaud my CA brethren for keeping after this and not giving up in their fight. I hope they will someday be able to have the same degree of freedom that I have where I live.

Zoogster
September 10, 2010, 02:50 PM
Rather than type it again I will repost what I posted previously on the topic:


What good is an unloaded gun? You might as well have a teddy bear on your hip.


The freedom that was retained has nothing to do with self defense.
It really has nothing to do with even strapping an unloaded gun on. That is just what a small minority choose to do in designated areas for a short period of time.

If this had passed then it would have made having an unloaded handgun illegal. Then the moment the lock on a gun case with a handgun in it clicked open you would be in criminal possession of a gun.
Click open the gun case in the parking lot before hiking out to where hunting is allowed? Criminal. Have more than one gun in a case and want to leave one in the trunk or move it to another case? Criminal. Want to check on the contents and make sure you have everything you need before you head out? Criminal.
It must remain where it is until in an area it is currently legal to have a loaded handgun.
Want to take it from your home to the vehicle in your driveway to put it in the trunk or in a case you already move to the car?
Criminal.
Want to take a gun from in your home to inside your garage if you don't have a door between the two, or to a shed or other building? Criminal.

It would have even become a crime to have an unloaded gun in some wilderness if this had passed! Places where one can currently unload a gun and walk through to get to the hunting spot on the other side, and then load it and hunt.
They were trying to apply 12031 restrictions to unloaded handguns. The definition of an illegal place under PC12031 is anywhere it is unlawful to discharge the firearm (recreationally like setting up a target, not self defense or hunting etc) it is unlawful to have the gun loaded.
This includes so many feet from a road, so many feet from every structure etc.
This would have made it a crime to have an unloaded handgun in the forest so many feet from a road! Or an unloaded handgun while going withing so many hundred yards of a structure. Some places even define such areas as so many yards from a trail!
It could have virtually put an end to handgun hunting in many portions of the state, or even having a handgun in the woods unless you carried it into the allowable zone in the forest in a locked case.



Quote:
Can you carry ammo on your person at the same time you open carry your unloaded firearm?

Yes, even a loaded detached magazine if the magazine is not concealed.
But you still cannot carry it for self defense:
People can still not carry even an unloaded gun on them and go about their day. You have to go within 1,000 feet of a school zone to go almost anywhere in a suburb or city in California. In rural areas that only have a few roads, they tend to have their elementary, middle, and high schools located on those only roads, often the only way in and out. You have to go within 1,000 feet of them typically.
This means the California Gun Free School Zone law from the 90s still makes it a crime to strap even an unloaded handgun on and go about a regular day.
This means it would be a crime to even drive by a school zone in your vehicle with an unloaded gun, and most roads are nowhere near 1,000 feet wide so you would be breaking the law every time you traveled by foot or vehicle.

The people that carry unloaded don't even carry unloaded to the location for that reason. They have to plot out a destination more than 1,000 feet from school zones, go there, put on the unloaded gun, stand around, and then remove the unloaded gun before they leave.
Oh and protesting with a gun is a serious crime in California (even police cannot have an empty gun when they protest or strike), so technically they cannot even officially be involved in a protest.

Russ Jackson
September 10, 2010, 03:03 PM
Carrying an unloaded firearm is like taking a spoon to a knife fight...Russ

hso
September 10, 2010, 03:06 PM
The issue was never self defense. The restrictive law was proposed to stop RKBA activists from carrying an unloaded firearm openly.

Zoogster
September 10, 2010, 03:24 PM
The issue was never self defense. The restrictive law was proposed to stop RKBA activists from carrying an unloaded firearm openly.

And would have in turn stopped a lot more activities and freedoms as well as I partially cover in the previous post.


They would have attached PC12031 (loaded gun in public) statute and case law definition to unloaded handguns.
"Public" in California includes any private land not completely fenced and closed to the public, and it also includes any place it is not legal to discharge the firearm (recreationally outside of hunting or self defense exemptions) as a prohibited place.
It would have become a crime in most of the state outside of your home to have an unloaded handgun, or to open a locked gun case containing an unloaded handgun, even just to take a look or toss something else in the case.
Hunters or hikers or campers many places would have had to carry a handgun into the forest on foot in a locked container.
It is already illegal to carry one loaded in incorporated California since 1967 when Ronald Reagan signed a ban on open carry into law.
It is already illegal to carry one unloaded during a regular day because you will go within 1,000 feet of a school zone (hundreds in every direction within an urban area.)

Derek Zeanah
September 10, 2010, 03:33 PM
Great news. A limited victory, but I'd call it a victory nonetheless.

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