[ATBackPackin]

Yesterday I went to a LGS to get an extra magazine and to look at holsters. This shops prices are a little on the high side, but the employees are always very courteous and helpful which is very important to me. Because of this I was planning on purchasing my next gun there even though I surely could get it cheaper else where, but I would like to show them my appreciation by patronizing their business.

So while looking around at holsters a guy in his mid to late 20's came in trying to sell his Ruger SP101 .357. He stated that he bought it there just a few weeks ago, but is moving to Maine (that day) and could really use the money. I'm pretty sure this gun retails $500 to $525 at this shop. The seller added that when he bought the gun he also bought one box of ammo of which he didn't even fire the whole box, but for some reason he didn't bring the box the gun came in. So we have a Ruger SP101 that is less than a month old, with less than 50 rounds through it, and no box. The guy offers him $250 for it and if he had the box he would give him $300. He went and got the box and they gave him $300.

I would be extremely surprised if they sell that gun for a penny less than $450. I know this is a business and they have to make a profit but wow.

While I'm still there another guy, probably in his late forty's, comes in with a rifle and a handgun. Turns out he has a big bore Savage bolt action with wood stock that looks like it's in very good condition. He also has a Beretta 92 that looks like it's in pristine condition but while checking it out they find that the guide rod and recoil spring are missing. The guy says he hasn't used either gun in years and has no use for them anymore so I assume that the last time he cleaned his gun he probably forgot to put the rod and spring back in. So naturally the employee tells him they would have to replace those parts before they could sell it. The seller said he understood and that he has no use for the guns anymore and just wants to get rid of them.

Guys I swear what I heard next almost made me spit Mello Yello out of my nose. They offered him $215!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FOR BOTH GUNS $215 and unfortunately the guy took it. I literally had to bite my tongue so I wouldn't speak up and offer him more.

So my question is would you do business with these people? I know it's a business and they need to turn a profit, but seriously I would think they would offer a little bit more fair market price. It really seemed like to me that these guys were just taking advantage of the situations. I like to do business with honest people and this seems borderline dishonest. Or maybe I'm just naive.

OK I asked so let me hear your opinions.

Shawn

[jimmyraythomason]

They offered what they were willing to give. It was the sellers who set the value of their pieces by accepting their offer. Nothing unethical going on. If I was happy with the way they treaded me and they had what I wanted for what I was willing to pay,then,yes I would continue to do business with them.

[Hanzo581]

Unless they forced the sellers to take their offers at gunpoint I'd say don't base your shopping decisions on a business doing what they need to do to stay in business.

[FatPants]

What does a gunshop pay for a new SP101 from their distributer? They will not pay near that for a used one. Half a box of shells, or 100 boxes, its still a used gun to the gun shop.

[rbernie]

It sounds pretty normal for 'wholesale' offers. Given how thin the profit margins are on new guns, the dealer has little choice but to make a larger profit margin on accessories and used guns.

[Mxracer239y]

Look at it from a different perspective. If a LGS has a sale, and offers ammo 50% off, would you protest before buying any? Of course not. They offered it at a price, and you took advantage of that. How dare you!

The gun store made an offer. The seller accepted. This is the free market system. They both had the option of saying no. My opinion? Win for the LGS.

[bottom shelf]

Yes, I would do business with them. I can't think of any reason not to.

[n00b_71]

Well I am not sure if it applies to gun shops, but IIRC the standard retail markup for clothing is 100%. So if a store is selling you a shirt for $100, then they probably got it from a wholesaler for $50.

So if they are indeed going to price the used SP101 at $450, then I think buying it from the guy for $300 actually seems quite generous.

As far as the other deal goes, I don't really know what those guns are worth without the missing parts, but the LGS made an offer, and he took it ... nothing wrong with that.

I also don't see anything wrong with you speaking up right there in the store and offering him more for them.

[orionengnr]

Well I am not sure if it applies to gun shops, but IIRC the standard retail markup for clothing is 100%. So if a store is selling you a shirt for $100, then they probably got it from a wholesaler for $50.

Apples/oranges comparison. Today's clothes will be outmoded 6 months from now, and worth essentially nothing...okay, maybe 25 cents on the dollar...probably not.

That SP101 is worth as much today as it was a year ago, and probably more. Give it another year, and it will be worth more yet.

That said, by definition, a fair transaction takes place when seller and buyer agree on a price (providing there is no "distress" on either side).
In my experience, a fair selling price for the SP101 is ~ $400. Given that the seller may have to sit on it for a while to actually sell at that price, the $300 offer was not out of line (IMHO).

[TexasGunbie]

Oh yeah, I definitely do business with this shop.

Especially knowing that they buy in their used guns at such low price.

On the spot I would have offer to buy the Ruger Sp101 at 350, that way the gun shop make 50 bucks on the spot, and I walk away with a good deal. That's if they do decide to sell it.

[gdesloge]

Imagine if guns were books.

What has happened to the smaller bookstores with the advent of the internet and the mega-retail-bookstores?

Actually, I look for any excuse to support my local gun store.

(You know what I mean.)

gd

[hso]

Gun shops purchase guns at roughly 60% of the "Blue Book" listed value so that they can make an average profit over the guns that turn in a day vs. the ones that tie up capital for 90+ days. That's for an as-new-used firearm. Remove the box and papers or any part or put any discernible wear on the firearm and you're going to be offered 60% of that devalued value.

Try thinking of it this way, drive a new car off a lot and back and forth to work for just a few days and see what the dealer will give you for it so they can put it on the used lot.

I also don't see anything wrong with you speaking up right there in the store and offering him more for them.


n00b_71,

Just so you know, that is considered a gross violation of gunshop etiquette. If the individual refuses the shop's offer you should wait for them outside of the business and ask if they'd be willing to sell the firearm for a given price. After all, the shop owner has to pay all the bills associated with keeping their shop open and attempting to outbid them in their own shop is considered akin to poaching.

[n00b_71]

Just so you know, that is considered a gross violation of gunshop etiquette.

That does not surprise me at all. I was thinking of it more from a theoretical/ethical perspective rather than good vs. poor form.

[Tirod]

For the life of me I can't understand who was buying and selling guns at the Louisiana Geological Survey offices in Pennsylvania?

As for selling a gun without the recoil spring and guide, they did him a kindness. It doesn't sound like he needs to be disassembling firearms.

[oldbear]

The shop in question has the right to make any offer they wish, and the seller has the right to accept or reject any offer. That being said, make them an offer on the Ruger now that you know what they paid for it.

[snubbies]

I think what ATBACKPACKIN is struggling with is did the LGS take advantage of the unknowing and illinformed seller by offering less than fair market value. I agree with previous postings the buyer offered the seller a price and the seller accepted. If the buyer misrepresented any facts then there is an ethical issue.

[Bubbles]

I also don't see anything wrong with you speaking up right there in the store and offering him more for them.
That is an excellent way to get thrown off the premises and told not to return. If the guy with the SP101 had declined the dealer's offer and left the store, you can follow him out and make the offer in the parking lot.

Usually when you make an offer on a used gun the seller counters, which is why the initial offers were low. The amount of the initial offer will vary based on the gun's condition, popularity, whether or not there are any in stock, etc.

Also, if the sellers hadn't needed the money immediately they could have asked the dealer to consign the guns instead of buying them outright. You end up with a little more money in the end, but not until the gun sells. Dealers don't mind doing it because they can sell a gun without tying up any of their own capital.

[burley]

I sometimes see the same thing, a very low offer on a pretty nice gun. It makes me think the LGS doesn't want to buy the used gun.

[MrOldLude]

Capitalism.

[WC145]

Most shops I know won't pay more than 50% of Blue Book for a gun someone is looking to sell and that's only if it's something they feel they can move relatively quickly.

More importantly, regardless of what the shop offered those guys neither of them had to take it.

[Carlos Cabeza]

If I had the money in my pocket and room for an SP .357 I would have ponied up. If Mr. gunshop guy didn't like it he can suck eggs ! Fair is fair and business is business ! If the dumbasses ask you to leave at least you'd leave with a smile. You won't have any trouble finding another shop who will be happy to take your money.
Assuming there is a FTF law in your state, no law broken, no problem.

[jimmyraythomason]

Fair is fair and business is business !Not if you are bidding against the house while IN his house! The seller approached the LGS and offered to sell to HIM not to you! Only AFTER the LGS has declined to buy and the potential seller leaves his store is it fair game.

[Carlos Cabeza]

Up to and including the shops that I regularly deal with and have respect for,......YES !
Anything less than that its an AUCTION !

[Carlos Cabeza]

Don't have the guts, keep your mouth shut !

[jimmyraythomason]

Don't have the guts, keep your mouth shut !
Has nothing to do with guts and everything to do with ethics.

[Carlos Cabeza]

Original comment Deleted.

[Waywatcher]

I think the folks defending the Gun store's actions while decrying someone who offers to buy it have no sound footing. If it's a break of ettiquette to outbid the gunstore, then it's certainly a break of ettiquette to lowball someone. What law would be broken by outbidding a gunstore that's lowballing a guy?

There's "fair business" and then there's "taking advantage."

Just because the seller agreed doesn't make it fair. The seller might need the money for cancer treatment. Then is it unfair for a third party to outbid the gunstore? What if the seller needs the money for his 3 year old's cancer treament?

I think this is not so cut and dry as some would like to think.

[jimmyraythomason]

If I REALLY NEED an SP 101 then F ethics !
I really don't know how to respond to that. I guess The High Road is just a sometime thing to some.

[Carlos Cabeza]

It might not make you a new friend, but you just bought a well made, reliable pistol that you could confidently defend yourself, family if necessary. If your intentions were to sell it for a profit then I'll throw the "ethics" card !

[jimmyraythomason]

I think this is not so cut and dry as some would like to think.
It is in my mind. You have to satisfy your own sense of fairness.

[Carlos Cabeza]

I guess I'm not fast enough. I deleted my comment for poorly worded content. I apologize for my lack of "think twice , post once" thinking.
Mr. Cheesehead ;) said it better !

As far as my infrequent visits to THR goes, It's a PC problem. I guess I'll have sell my SP101 to the gunstore guy and buy a new computer !!!! :p

[jimmyraythomason]

I guess The High Road is just a sometime thing to some. As far as my infrequent visits to THR goes I am SURE you know that is NOT what I meant by that.

[oneounceload]

It seems the sellers were poorly informed as to their situation - sucks to be them........if it had been the other way - you walking into your LGS and getting some smoking deal because THEY missed something, you'd be here crowing about your smoking deal......

Business is business, and they made an offer the seller accepted. Remember your attitude when you go to the gun store or gun show and try to low ball someone........really............get a grip

[earlthegoat2]

I would buy from them.

I would not sell to them.

[Carlos Cabeza]

Soooooo, Jimmy Ray. You're able to pass judgement on a person just by a few posts on a Bulletin Board ?:rolleyes: I thought we were all brothers here ??????? ;) Sorry, emotions play no part in my decisions when my business hat is on !:cool:

Sorry to hijack the OP's thread.

[labhound]

If I felt like the LGS was low balling when buying customers guns, then I'd just remember NOT to sell any of my guns to them. Business is business, so buy from them but sell to someone else if you can get a better deal.

[Mxracer239y]

Just because the seller agreed doesn't make it fair.

I think it does. The buyer made an offer. At that point it is the responsibility of the seller to accept, counter-offer, or deny. He made his decision.



The seller might need the money for cancer treatment.

It is not the LGS' responsibility to know this. Anyone selling a gun needs money for something; another gun purchase, cancer treatment, or their electric bill. The LGS should not pay more than the 'value' of the firearm, or more than they would were anyone else selling. Can you imagine the confusion if the seller's life situation were calculated into market vale? Fortunately, it is not. The gun is worth X to the LGS. The seller will not let it go for less than Y. If X > Y, then why are we having this discussion?

[killchain]

I wouldn't even buy a Beretta that some guy just "lost the guide rod and recoil spring."

And we all know on here that if you're looking to make some $$$ on a gun sale, do it privately. A business is going to throw you on the tracks if they can.

[killchain]

I am SURE you know that is NOT what I meant by that.
Oh, stop with the "High Road" thing already. :P

Sometimes the "High Road" is telling someone when they're doing something wrong.

[jimmyraythomason]

Oh, stop with the "High Road" thing already Yeah,I guess you're right since it no longer is applied. I guess we all have our OWN code of ethics.

[ATBackPackin]

Thanks for all of the opinions. I read all of the posts and the first thing I want to say is that there is no right or wrong answer, I was just seeking peoples opinions.

Secondly, I understand that obviously nobody forced the sellers to agree to what I considered a low price. Most people seem to be focusing on the Ruger deal, which was eh I thought $350 would have been more fair, but the one that I thought was way off was the two gun deal. While I didn't think that I insinuated that they did anything illegal or even wrong, maybe just immoral. We'll get back to that in a little bit.

I absolutely agree that the whole point of a business it to make a profit and to some it is to make the maximum profit. That's is kind of my point. Greed. Is it illegal? Of course not. Is it wrong? Well that is kind of a moral stand point.

As a consumer, not just the shooting world, I really like to support local commerce as long as I don't feel like they are trying to pay their overhead with every individual sale. I would say that I do 98% of my business in brick and mortar stores even though I could most likely get it cheaper on-line and the only thing gun related I have ever bought on-line is a magazine for my PA-63. I can appreciate their mercantile skills, but I think there is a fine line and anything over that line is nothing but greed.

I guess my bottom line is this, why should I pay more money for the same product to a local business that I think is greedy. If it is all about max profit to them, then it should be all about max savings to me. I would rather patronize a local business that I think deserves my money.

I understand that this is merely a moral view, but if it is my money it's going to be my morals.

Thanks again for the opinions,

Shawn

[Waywatcher]

I think it does. The buyer made an offer. At that point it is the responsibility of the seller to accept, counter-offer, or deny. He made his decision.

It is not the LGS' responsibility to know this. Anyone selling a gun needs money for something; another gun purchase, cancer treatment, or their electric bill. The LGS should not pay more than the 'value' of the firearm, or more than they would were anyone else selling. Can you imagine the confusion if the seller's life situation were calculated into market vale? Fortunately, it is not. The gun is worth X to the LGS. The seller will not let it go for less than Y. If X > Y, then why are we having this discussion?

Bear with me if you will, for a realistic hypothetical.

Let's say you live next door to a really nice old couple. George and Patti are both in their mid 80's. Let's say you are on a first name basis with them. You and George hit it off because, as it turns out, George is into guns almost as much as you are. Patti never really cared one way or the other and barely knows the difference between a rifle and a shotgun.

Let's say one day you stop by to visit and an obviously distraught Patti answers the door. You find out that George has passed on. Patti asks you if you would help sell off most of his guns, since you were close to George and shared similar interests.

Let's say George had a particular gun you have always been fond of, an absolutely superb specimen. You know that the fair market value for such a piece would be around 700-800 dollars.

How much would you offer Patti? If you offered her $150 and she accepted, would that be fair?

[Mr.Davis]

Sounds like a great place to negotiate a fantastic price on a used gun!

If the seller didn't think they were getting reasonable value, they wouldn't part with their guns.

I don't care if he offered him $5 for the Beretta 92...if $5 was worth more than keeping the gun to the guy doing the selling, then it's a fair trade.

[killchain]

Yeah,I guess you're right since it no longer is applied. I guess we all have our OWN code of ethics.
So let's say you're riding a bicycle down the street. You have on a helmet that's made out of chain mail. You ride by, stop, and ask me, "Hey, what do you think of my helmet? Safe huh?"

Do I:

a) Tell you a chainmail helmet is stupid and when you crash it's going to turn your face and brains into hamburger, or

b) Smile, make some observation about the quality that it's made and the possible uses for your helmet (including a tactical defense item)

Which one's "The High Road?"

Guess what. "The High Road" doesn't mean "be nice and don't hurt my feelings." It means "be honest and do the Right Thing."

You, sir, are wearing a dangerous helmet and it's going to hurt you.

See, I did the High Road.

[jimmyraythomason]

"be honest and do the Right Thing."
I agree. It also means respect a man's place of business and don't compete with him under his own roof.

[evan price]

Seriously, what should they do? Offer 110% retail? They have bills to pay too, and if the seller doesn't like it, he's free to walk out the door any time.

Just be lucky that those guns are being sold to a place to be resold, I know of several nice guns from deceased individuals that got turned in to the police by heirs to be destroyed at a gun buy.

[Waywatcher]

Everyone should ask themselves one simple question:

"Am I treating others as I would like to be treated?"

In other words, am I following the golden rule? Or another phrase that comes to my mind, WWJD (What would Jesus do?)

I treat everyone I meet, even strangers, as I would like to be treated. That means I don't take advantage of others, even if they are desperate or I could get away with it. I guess it's just a matter of principle.

I understand businesses need to profit, but they don't need to profiteer.

[TexasRifleman]

We've wandered off the path here. I think the OP's questions were dealt with, so we'll call it done.