9mm Minor PF...Use 147's?


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Owen
September 12, 2010, 10:15 PM
A coworker has reinfected me with the USPSA bug. I've just about burned through my stash of ammo, and need to start reloading.

In the past, I reloaded for absolute minimum cost, which meant the cheapest 115's I could find, at just a hair over 125 PF.

In the past I have shot a few matches with borrowed equipment, and one of the things that struck me was how gently the heavy bullet .40 loads recoiled.

Does this hold true for 9mm too? Should I spend the dough on the heavy bullets?

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glockgod
September 12, 2010, 10:39 PM
Montana Gold 147gr 9mm bullets have been very good to me. I load to about 950fps so power factor is a nonissue. Accurate and dependable. I load for several 9mm Glock pistols with great success. Yes, I know about no reloads for Glocks-show me a company that reccomends reloads.

Owen
September 12, 2010, 10:51 PM
glockgod, what's your recipe?

Jim Watson
September 12, 2010, 11:09 PM
I have shot a good deal of 145-147 gr subsonic 9mm. I like the ".38 Special automatic" feel. Some people say the gun feels "sluggish" but I like the softer FELT recoil for a given power factor.

I think the big dividing line is between the 115s and anything heavier. Perhaps it is the shockwave "Crack!" of the supersonic or transsonic light bullet. Even a 125 at 1050 is more comfortable than a 115 at 1150. I have some 135 gr moly coated cast Billy Bullets that I like.

Owen
September 12, 2010, 11:11 PM
does the softer felt recoil lead to faster splits, or is it so sluggish that I have to wait for the gun to catch up to me?

glockgod
September 13, 2010, 12:02 AM
My go to load for IDPA and USPSA is 4grs Unique with 147gr Montana Gold bullet seated to 1.150". You might want to back off a bit for a starting load.

Jim Watson
September 13, 2010, 12:52 AM
Wait on the gun?
Not me, but I am just a scratch Expert. The Masters might have something to say about it. Although I understand that D. Sevigny shoots subsonics for IDPA and 115s for steel.

Hoser
September 13, 2010, 10:08 AM
I did the middle of the road thing with minor PF. I am shooting 124 JHPs around 1025-1050. Still soft, but the gun doesent feel sluggish. And pretty cheap compared to the 147s.

jmorris
September 13, 2010, 10:19 AM
I have never felt anything as soft as this load. It even makes pf out of my commander.
9mm
3.1g VihtaVuori 310
147g Berry's
OAL 1.160"
Winchester small pistol
Velocity 890fps

jmorris
September 13, 2010, 10:21 AM
In place of the 3.1 of N310, 3.2-3.2 of titegroup is pretty close. The VV is noticeably softer and also one of the cleanest powders I have ever used.

Owen
September 13, 2010, 12:41 PM
Having tried to shoot plates with a S&W mdl 52, there was definitely some waiting on the gun...

wally
September 13, 2010, 12:55 PM
I find about 3.7gr Unique and the 147gr hard cast lead bullets are very soft shooting and clean burning. You might have to play with the OAL a bit and not all my 9mm pistols will feed them 100% so I suggest starting with 100-500 instead of buying 1000s straight away.

I've been using Missouri Bullets the past couple of years to great success.

Owen
September 14, 2010, 04:29 PM
dang, that's not very much titegroup. I have one ref that says 3.2gr with give me a 135 PF. I'd hate to go even lower than that... Heck, it's almost primer driven!

ny32182
September 15, 2010, 11:26 AM
I currently shoot 115's at just under 1100 (1087 is the line for 125k pf with 115's).

But, the most competetive shooters I know in IDPA all shoot 147's. I'm planning to try them out after my two remaining matches for the year are done at the end of October.

The best shooter I personally know (multi-state champion) stated it this way (somewhat paraphrasing)... "Could I shoot well with hotter factory ammo? Yes. But it is not the most competetive thing I can do. The recoil difference between WWB and 147's just over PF is probably good for a couple seconds for me over the course of the match, and I've won and lost matches by less than that."

As far as "waiting on the gun", no, I don't think so, unless you can pull the trigger over ~1200 rpm (just throwing out a number on the cyclic rate of some subguns), and I don't know anybody who can do that. A quick split is under .2, and nobody is waiting on the gun.

CatsEye
September 15, 2010, 10:18 PM
I would agree with what the others have said. For 9mm loads, 147gr bullets with a relatively fast powder give the least perceived recoil for the power factor. When shooting plated bullets (Rainier) I usually go with Titegroup, for moly coated bullets (BBI) I go with Solo 1000.

jmorris
September 16, 2010, 12:18 PM
A quick split is under .2

Not if you are a multi-state champion.

ny32182
September 16, 2010, 12:23 PM
Ok... for me, a quick split is under .2. :)

I think the fastest I ever recall seeing in person that I know about is in the .16 range; I'd say it starts getting hard to differentiate .01 with the human ear however.

jmorris
September 16, 2010, 12:50 PM
I'd say it starts getting hard to differentiate .01 with the human ear however.

True enough but the timer does every time.

StealthyBlagga
September 16, 2010, 04:29 PM
In my experience, shot timers are unreliable at detecting splits much below 0.1sec.

Owen
September 16, 2010, 11:14 PM
i've definitely experienced waiting on the gun with light loads...the slide closing is what pops the muzzle back down....38 wad loads with a light spring run the slide very slow.

my splits are well under .2

olyeller
September 17, 2010, 03:24 AM
Serious shooters and the pros shoot 147gr bullets for feel at a given power factor, but the best thing is that they will knock down steel with more authority.

jmorris
September 17, 2010, 12:51 PM
In my experience, shot timers are unreliable at detecting splits much below 0.1sec.

Some are better than others but I have yet to find a commercial shot timer that can catch splits from our SMG’s. However, it is the total of all the splits that counts. I was simply pointing out, as a multi-state champion, .2 splits won’t cut it unless it’s a pretty long shot.

Jim Watson
September 17, 2010, 01:04 PM
Serious shooters and the pros shoot 147gr bullets for feel at a given power factor, but the best thing is that they will knock down steel with more authority.

Well, not all the time.
By back channels I came by a couple of boxes of ammunition left over from Team Glock at the Pro-Am all steel match. Atlanta Arms 115 gr JHP. But they shoot 147s at paper in IDPA and IPSC.

jmorris
September 17, 2010, 01:32 PM
Well, not all the time.
By back channels I came by a couple of boxes of ammunition left over from Team Glock at the Pro-Am all steel match. Atlanta Arms 115 gr JHP.


Excellent point. For sports that don’t have a power factor the heavy bullet concept is out the window.

chbrow10
September 17, 2010, 02:02 PM
Right, Steel Challenge doesn't require the Major PF, so the heavy bullet doesn't make sense.

Team Glock now shoots 147 by Atlanta Arms and Ammo. There was an ad that mentioned the bullet speed somewhere, by I can't find it. The number was barely subsonic, if I recall. Something Like 950 fps. Mach 1 in standard conditions is 1125 fps.

for steel and recoil, my junior shooters shoot 147 grainer at 140 PF. For reasons of economy, I have started shooting lead 135 grainers at 135 PF (1000 fps, still subsonic). Rob Leatham mentions the benefits of shooting a subsonic load on his website.

this is in a Glock 34

GunAdmirer
September 17, 2010, 06:10 PM
Tested/chronographed some loads in my Glock 19 today:

Win 3X brass
Win SP primer
4.0 Titegroup
Berry's 124 plated RN
1.150" OAL
1065 fps avg, 132,060 pf

Win 3X brass
Win SP primer
4.2 Titegroup
Berry's 124 plated RN
1.150" OAL
1094 fps avg, 135,656 pf

Win 3X brass
Win SP primer
3.3 Titegroup
X-treme 147 plated RN
1.150" OAL
902 fps avg, 132,594 pf

Conditions: Glock 19 w/4" barrel, Shooting Chrony, 85F, 11:00 a.m., ideal conditions

I used the 147 grain load at my last IDPA match and had no problems knocking over steel targets when I did my part. Recoil does seem lower. Accuracy was good.

ny32182
September 17, 2010, 06:17 PM
Also, you can back off from that some if you want. If your ammo makes PF from a longer barreled gun that is legal in the division like a G34, it is legal to shoot in the G19.

I shot a G19 for quite a while with ammo that made PF from that gun, not knowing this. I wouldn't say I regret doing it, but I did back the load off considerably when I switched to a G34 for IDPA.

Old Guy
September 17, 2010, 11:16 PM
My Buddy buys pro re-loads from a couple of people, we used Atlanta Arms for a while, all 147g jacketed. I buy from him, he shoots ten times more than I do (shoots better too) 22 years younger helps a bit as well.

In shooting IDPA, accurate out of a Glock 19, plates and poppers, go down well.
I think 950 fps is what we get.

When I did my own re-loading, .38 Spl for my classes, and .45 ACP for IPSC, I used 5.2g of 700X, behind a Hensley & Gibbs lead #68? Semi-wad-cutter. 700X a shotgun powder, also for my .38 Spl. Not sure of the weight, in the .38.

The reason I used 700X, it was cheap, and worked fine, and it came in 12 lb kegs, is it still used? Anybody here use it?

Jim Watson
September 18, 2010, 12:39 AM
I've loaded a lot of 700X because I really like it for 12 ga Trap loads and it is an ok pistol powder. The 4.5-5.4 grains I load for .45 ACP and .44 Special do fine. Light loads for 9mm and .38 Special were subject to throwing one grain of powder instead of the 2.5 - 3.5 wanted. Never a zero load and a stuck bullet but one grain and a hit about a foot and a half low on target will get your attention.

The last I loaded before my reloading gear went into storage after The Incident was midrange .45s with 3.3-3.5 gr 700X and a vibrator hung on the powder measure to shake powder into the bar.

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