Bullet weights.


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Demitrios
September 13, 2010, 06:50 AM
Over the past few years I've been re-loading and the more I learn the more I can say I'm still a novice, no matter I've studied, there's just so much out there from caliber, to price, to the firearm you fire it from. I've noticed that heavier weight and slower velocity seems to be more desirable for in terms of self-defense loads (against humans) than other weighted bullets.

I'm particularly looking for a self-defense round in what I already carry so please no suggestions as to what pistol I should buy.

The case, I own a Dan Wesson 1911 chambered in 10mm. I reload and know a bit about weights and velocties. I DON'T KNOW about penetration, expansion, effects of clothing, effects of skin, effects of muscle, effects of bone and overpenetration into another undesired object/person.

Simply put what defensive 10mm round fits this criteria?

I'm being as specific as possible because I don't want this to turn into a "The original hot loads that Norma invented is the true load of the 10mm" or "The .40 was intended for weak people." debate. What information/wisdom can you guys impart on me to help me pick a defensive load for my 10mm for when I'm carrying and in the (Heaven forbid) chance I need use my firearm against another human being, is what I'm looking for and greatly appreciated.

And, yes, I already know shot placement and mental/emotional training will never be replaced by a caliber.

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MissouriBullet
September 13, 2010, 08:22 AM
Over the past few years I've been re-loading and the more I learn the more I can say I'm still a novice, no matter I've studied, there's just so much out there from caliber, to price, to the firearm you fire it from. I've noticed that heavier weight and slower velocity seems to be more desirable for in terms of self-defense loads (against humans) than other weighted bullets.

I'm particularly looking for a self-defense round in what I already carry so please no suggestions as to what pistol I should buy.

The case, I own a Dan Wesson 1911 chambered in 10mm. I reload and know a bit about weights and velocties. I DON'T KNOW about penetration, expansion, effects of clothing, effects of skin, effects of muscle, effects of bone and overpenetration into another undesired object/person.

Simply put what defensive 10mm round fits this criteria?

I'm being as specific as possible because I don't want this to turn into a "The original hot loads that Norma invented is the true load of the 10mm" or "The .40 was intended for weak people." debate. What information/wisdom can you guys impart on me to help me pick a defensive load for my 10mm for when I'm carrying and in the (Heaven forbid) chance I need use my firearm against another human being, is what I'm looking for and greatly appreciated.

And, yes, I already know shot placement and mental/emotional training will never be replaced by a caliber.
I've been a 10mm devotee since the mid-80's when I bought my first Delta Elite.

I am of the heavy bullet/controlled expansion Facklerian school with respect to the efficacy of self-defense loads and believe that a 200 grain thick jacketed bullet is the way to go. However, there is a school of thought once led by Marshall and Sanow, based upon their investigations of "one-shot stops" which holds that high velocity and vicious expansion is the way to go. They found that a high velocity .357 Magnum load with a thin jacketed 125 grain JSP or JHP caused the highest number of one-shot stops. The referred to this loading as the "Magic Pill." In the 10mm, such external ballistics can easily be surpassed with a 135 grain bullet at 1300+ fps.

Brad

kutter
September 13, 2010, 11:38 AM
I know this is not probably the exact answer that you were looking for and you already touched on it in your post, but I would submit that it is the combination that you are most comfortable with and shoot the most accurately. The 10mm is a a big ole round and light moving faster or heavier moving slower, either one will have a devastating impact on the intended target. So in my mind find what load you like best and use that.

There was a recent thread about the vices and virtues of light versus heavy, not in 10mm but I think in 9mm, however the theory remains the same. The combination that allows most accuracy with the quickest follow up would be the one that I would choose and do not get caught up in minutiae.

Yarddog
September 13, 2010, 12:05 PM
The Old Hydro Shock 165gr Is a accurate round & does damage ; )
Y/D

918v
September 13, 2010, 12:18 PM
The problem is the 10mm is not a Law Enforcement supported round, meaning that the large ammo companies have not developed any dedicated ammunition for self defense like they did for the 9/40/45.

You can look to Buffalo Bore and Double Tap for their Gold Dot loads. I'd go with the 180gr weight because I prefer penetration over expansion (for the really obese assailants). Actually, I want to be able to reach the heart from any angle and 12" just doesn't cut it. My research indicates the 180gr Gold Dot at 1300 FPS penetrates 15" and expands to 1" in ballistic gellatin.

fourdollarbill
September 13, 2010, 01:29 PM
If I remember correct when the 10mm development for the FBI was going on they had the need for a more industrial type gunfight which includes shooting into cars and blasting through a wall the bad guy was hiding behind. I think the FBI really favored to more penatration and the expansion was a close second.

Now here's the part 10mm owners don't like to hear. The development of the 10mm ended with the 40 S&W for better one stop shots. Why? because the 40 S&W could incorperate a lighter, faster expanding bullet making it more desirable as a civilian/homeowner defense caliber. So (I'm pretty sure) the FBI adopted the "10mm FBI Light Load" trying to get the best of both worlds and the 40 S&W went on to be famous in its own caliber.

With all that said I think and will always think - if you load a 10mm to 40 S&W numbers then you will have a better one stop shot load. If you're pretty sure most all of the bad guys are going to hiding behind barricades and cars then beef it up to the real 10mm power.

As far as buying factory 10mm SD ammo IMO I would stick with lite and fast bullets because I'm a civilian and my shots are most likely going to be frontal attacks with no car doors or barricades to shoot through.

I know someone may bring up 10mm frame size and recoil issues with the FBI development but I was just sticking to the original request.

Demitrios
September 13, 2010, 02:20 PM
Size and recoil aren't really too much of an issue for me as I'll always be practicing and even in my heavy loads I can handle the 10mm without a problem. What I'm curious about though is what rounds available for the 10mm have shown to have the most in the way of expansion, Pow'rball, Silvertip, XTP, etc.?

Do any of you carry what you reload?

Even a .32 NAA has been shown to expand as far as a .50 in diameter, I want to just how much expansion can be gotten out of the 10mm.

fourdollarbill
September 13, 2010, 02:38 PM
Do any of you carry what you reload?
Wow! Thats going to cause a long thread :what:

I carry what I load in 357mag. You may want to start another thread on that or use the search as there is a pretty fresh thread on that subject.

The recoil and frame size is more of a personal issue, if you fit the gun then by all means use it. I carry stainless heavy revolvers for my carry guns and the recoil is pretty big. I just mentioned it so my 10mm synopses to your info-quest doesn't get its butt kicked.

I think your original request was to find supporting info on bullet weight and expansion. There is a thread going on and it is talking about the XTP and all of the followers. If I find it I will paste it for you.

fourdollarbill
September 13, 2010, 02:47 PM
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=541778
Here is the XTP thread with allot of good info for your bullet brand question. Maybe it will help too.

Demitrios
September 13, 2010, 03:32 PM
Thank you Bill, I appreciate that.

CraigC
September 13, 2010, 04:49 PM
So far, using the 180gr Gold Dot at nearly 1500fps on flesh, I have been very impressed with its performance. Driven to 10mm pistol velocities, it should be near perfect as a self defense load. It expands reliably and penetrates well while its bonded core design ensures that it won't separate.

GW Staar
September 13, 2010, 05:04 PM
The problem is the 10mm is not a Law Enforcement supported round, meaning that the large ammo companies have not developed any dedicated ammunition for self defense like they did for the 9/40/45.

You can look to Buffalo Bore and Double Tap for their Gold Dot loads. I'd go with the 180gr weight because I prefer penetration over expansion (for the really obese assailants). Actually, I want to be able to reach the heart from any angle and 12" just doesn't cut it. My research indicates the 180gr Gold Dot at 1300 FPS penetrates 15" and expands to 1" in ballistic gellatin.

Tend to agree with 918v.

My carry is a small .40S&W and I reload 180gr Gold Dots for the reasons he mentioned.

I'm absolutely sure that this is a case where bigger is always better, if you can carry it and shoot it well, but I'm not large in the first place, and carrying a big gun just isn't feasible for daily conceal carry. If you can conceal, and comfortably carry a full-sized 10mm 1911 all day,....lucky you. The same bullet I carry, with more powder behind it sure as hell can't hurt.

I'm not so worried about chubby thugs, as I'd be about big, knarly, muscular ones, high on Meth, or Opium, unable to even feel a half dozen 9mm slugs, even if one or two are terminal. For crazed zombies like that, I'd rather have 30-06 or bigger.;)

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