[The Silver Bullet 1719]

I have never compared a 30.06 cartridge and .308 cartridge side by side so I'll ask the experts here. If you buy a new production Springfield Garand, or rechamber an original Garand to .308, will the .308 cartridges fit and feed properly with GI Clips?

[hps1]

The 308 will feed and function perfectly in a properly set up M1 using the regular clips. Some smiths put in a spacer block in the front of the magazine well to prevent the 1/2" shorter .308 cartridge from working forward due to recoil as the clip is emptied.

I had a custom built 308 match rifle that did not have this block and it worked perfectly until the op rod spring began to weaken (after several thousand rounds). The weakened spring reduced the tension on the follower and the 7th and 8th round worked forward in the clip. This caused feeding problems which I solved by adding the block. It was not until much later that I realized it was actually the weakened op rod spring causing the problem.

Regards,
hps

[bernie]

You simply must get a .308 M1 Rifle. No collection is complete without one. It has all the benefits of the .30-06 original, with lighter, easier to get ammo. I have fired one quite a bit and it seems to me that the .308 has slightly softer recoil. That is subjective and may be in my head, but I love the .308 M1!

[196pc]

I have a 308 Garand.......Its not for sale......I love it over the 30-06 version I have.

[Wildalaska]

I saw an original Navy 308 Garand last week, it was truly a drooler..

WildlikestheoddstuffAlaska

[boing]

But let's talk ballistics, and please correct where I'm wrong here:

The '06 was developed as a black powder load. Then smokeless came along and we could get the performance of the '06 (as loaded for the military) in a smaller package, and thus .308 was born, later to become 7.62 NATO.

The military '06 load isn't as hot as commercial '06 can be, hence the warnings about some commercial loads in a Garand bending the op rod (excessive pressure at the gas port).

Sooo...if you can really only get so much performance out of 30-06 when it's loaded for safe use in the Garand, how close can you get to that performance by using .308/7.62 NATO?

[Tom C.]

The .30-06 was origianlly a smokeless nitro cartridge. It was origianlly developed with the 220 gr. rn used in the .30-40, which was black powder. The Germans then demonstrated the spire point 8mm. Reduced the weight of the 8mm bullet to 154 gr. and increased velocity and range. Also had the unintended effect of increasing lethality due to instability of the bullet in the human body. Springfield Armory quickly followed suit with a 150 gr. spire point load. The .30-03 became the .30-06. Barrels of the Model 1903 Springfield were set back one thread and rechambered. They had shortened the case neck a little.
The .30-06 was developed for the smokeless powders available at the time. It gave about 2700 fps. with a 150 gr flat base spire point bullet. With improvements in smokeless powder technology by the late 1940's, a smaller case, for roughly the same performance was possible. The 7.62 NATO, .308 civilian, is a little slower than the .30-06. In military loads it is around 100 fps. In full power civilian loads, not suitable for use in the Garand, the .30-06 is closer to 200 fps faster than the .308.
Commercial ammo loaded with slower powders than military M-2 ball equivalent ammo can be used in the Garand, but you risk damaging the operating rod with the higher pressure at the pressure port. At least 2 manufacturors make gas cylinder lock screws with pressure relief mechanisms that would allow dialing in for any reasonable ammo. Should eliminate the risk of damage to the op rod.

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

Would a new production model Garand (a la Springfield Armory) have any problems with the commercial loads damaging the op rod?

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Good question, I'm also curious as I am heavily contemplating the purchase of a SA Garand.

[Tom C.]

I would think so. If you want to use commercial, non-milspec ammo, the safest way to do it may be to investigate the pressure relieving gas cylinder lock screws. They are both listed in Midway's catalog. I have seen pictures of one. It has a series of screws with graduated holes through them for pressure relief. Don't know how the other one works.

[boing]

I think the new Garand receivers are cast, not forged, if that matters to anyone considering buying one.

Tom, thanks for the history lesson.

[hps1]

The problem with shooting heavy bullets (over 150-168 gr) in the garand is that, normally, the heavier bullets use a slower powder than the 150's. What damages the garand op-rod is a high port pressure . The original GI garand had one of the strongest military receivers in the world at the time (WWII) and was capable of handling high breech pressures just fine.

This is the reason for the special venting gas cyl. screws. Being a handloader, I am not sure of the powders used in commercial ammo. I suspect that, if one stuck with 150 grain factory, you probably would be OK, but, as I said, I do not know what powder the factories are using. Reloading for the garand, a powder w/burning rate of 4895 is OK, 4350 is too slow, even w/150 gr bullets, IMHO. This holds true regardless of caliber.

Regards,
hps

[goon]

Where can one get a 308 Garand?

[cheygriz]

goon,

Any Garand can be easily rebarrelled to .308.

[foghornl]

If you 'roll your own' M-1 Ammo, the following quote is direct from Hodgdon's web-ste reloading guide:
If loads are to be used in a semi-auto, especially the Garand, H4895 should be the powder of choice to protect the operating rod. The gas system of the Garand was designed to use the amount of gas produced by H4895 for proper function.

[pdh]

I assume IMR4895 powder is ok to use also.Does the H4895 and IMR4895 have about the same burn rate?I have been told to use the IMR4895 in the Garands.
Thanks

[hps1]

Either H or IMR 4895 will work fine. They are not interchangeable, however. The actual load will vary from one brand to the other.

According to Hodgden's Reloading Manual # 26, the maximum charge in 30-06 w/H4895 & 150 gr. bullet shows mv of 2932 fps & 51,000 cup pressure. The identical charge of IMR 4895 (also listed as the maximum), shows mv of 2852 w/50,000 cup pressure.

Not recommending the maximum load, just using as an example.

Regards,
hps