Received my M&P back from S&W...


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Magic_Man
September 16, 2010, 10:57 PM
You may remember my rusty slide thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=538633

I shipped the pistol and the rusty magazine to them. Got them back today. The slide has been refinished and looks good. They sent me the rusty magazine back though. :eek::fire::scrutiny::fire::cuss:

Not only should this not happen, but it is my EDC weapon so I figured they'd give me a little extra something to compensate me. Nope, nothing.

I will be contacing them again of course.

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Nushif
September 16, 2010, 11:12 PM
Lies! S&W gives perfect customer service at all times!

How bad is the rust on the magazine, by the by? Because I have some pretty grimy mags for my Beretta and they work just fine.

Carter
September 16, 2010, 11:17 PM
If it makes you feel any better I was watching a police officer unload his Beretta and his magazine was rusted pretty bad. He didn't seem to care (of course the department was switching to glocks in a few weeks anyways). I asked him when was the last time he cleaned it and he had no idea.

Point is, a rusted mag will work. I'd still be pissed though.

Magic_Man
September 16, 2010, 11:38 PM
I know it works, but that is not the point. ;)

9mmepiphany
September 17, 2010, 12:32 AM
I know it works, but that is not the point.

If they paid shipping both ways and refinished the slide, what more did you expect?

I would think that rust on a magazine would fall under normal wear...is there something in warranty that obligates them to more?

sxshep
September 17, 2010, 12:43 AM
My M&P9c had the same rust on the rear sight, and a little on the back of the slide release lever and one of the metal punches near it... but I keep all my guns pretty well oiled, even the exterior. I was pissed when the sight was rusting though. That slide of yours looked rough, glad they refinished it for you.

writerinmo
September 17, 2010, 01:28 AM
I took some of my regular steel magazines and powdercoated them matte black after scotchbriting all the rust off them. Been a couple months now and very pleased with them.

MaterDei
September 17, 2010, 02:35 AM
If they fixed the slide to your satisfaction I'd call it good. Why do you want to keep complaining over a magazine that might still be perfectly functional?

Full Metal Jacket
September 17, 2010, 05:21 AM
i'm about to send in a rusty mp45c. slide,sites, and barrel are all rusty. never had that happen to a gun i own. had good service in the past with them. mags aren't rusty though.



I would think that rust on a magazine would fall under normal wear...is there something in warranty that obligates them to more?

it was just a mistake. s&w will replace the mag, all the OP needs to do is call them. they'll just send him a new one. not sure why he's getting so upset about it lol. jeez, they refinished the whole upper assembly and aid for shipping too, yet he still gives them a thumbs down :eek:

i've dealt with s&w a few times, including mag issues. great service :)

Magic_Man
September 17, 2010, 08:01 AM
I didn't realize my level of upset was visible on a monitor lol. I'm not over here flipping out, relax people.

I don't know about some of you, but when I send parts in for repair/service I expect all parts sent in to be corrected not just 1 of them.

Mags
September 17, 2010, 11:22 AM
When you sent the parts in did you explain your problems in a letter in the shipment including the rust on the magazine?

mgmorden
September 17, 2010, 12:00 PM
Try as I might, I can't see S&W at fault here. The gun is made of steel. Steel oxidizes (rusts). You either keep it oiled to prevent the oxidation or you have an aftermarket finish applied that will keep oxygen away from the steel.

If you keep the original finish, then if/when a little rust does form - clean it off and re-oil it. I don't think I've owned a gun yet that didn't form a little rust at sometime or another that needed to be cleaned off.

Skylerbone
September 17, 2010, 12:33 PM
mg, all M&Ps are stainless then finished with a melonite coating. I've yet to have any gun rust on me save a small amount of surface oxidation on a blued muzzleloader (carbon steel).

I recommend a product called Rig+P. It's worked for me for decades now.

FLAvalanche
September 17, 2010, 01:17 PM
It just flabbergasts me that people expect the manufacturer to refinish things they can't take care of.

I can understand if there is a problem in the finish of the slide like a bare spot or something but come one. Oil the damn thing. If it's rusting you're not taking care of it.

Kingofthehill
September 17, 2010, 02:30 PM
Not only should this not happen, but it is my EDC weapon so I figured they'd give me a little extra something to compensate me. Nope, nothing.


damn... people wanting stuff for free...

THIS is whats wrong with people today. "Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie" You say the mag works perfect right? Would you rather have a mag with a spec of rust or a shiney new one that doesn't work?

everyone wants something for nothing... simply amazing

"they paid for shipping, and fixed the gun...but they didn't give me free stuff... how dare they!"

writerinmo
September 17, 2010, 03:31 PM
How about a shiny one that works?

fastbolt
September 17, 2010, 03:40 PM
If you're experiencing rust on the magazine, takedown lever, Novak sights and a coil pin, which are parts which don't receive the Melonite nitrocarburzing treatment, I'd politely suggest that the gun could be better maintained for whatever environment and carry conditions are involved.

Please don't take that as a critical comment, but just an observation from someone who has owned and carried handguns with blued and other finishes which weren't necessarily possessed of corrosion-resistant properties. I remember having to take some basic care of many, many blue steel 1911 magazines over the years so they didn't acquire oxidation.

The Melonite finish rusting deserved correction, which they did under their lifetime warranty. Sure, they could have noticed the mag with rusted spots on it and maybe replaced it as good will, but there's a difference between the slide apparently not receiving the proper Melonite treatment which resulted in rust, and someone not taking care of a regular blued steel mag.

The plain blued finish of the magazine requires the same care to maintain as blued finish magazines have always required over the years. S&W requested a different finish (Teflon-based) on the M&P 45 magazines at one point after a LE customer agency experienced rust issues on the early standard blued mag bodies, and the .40c mags I've been receiving (which I called and confirmed were being provided by Mec-Gar, FWIW) have a different finish which has resisted rusting even when I've used them in heavy rain, but then I did disassemble them and wipe them off inside and outside at the end of the day. Neither of my M&P slides and barrels (nor any other parts on the slide or frame) have exhibited rust even when I've used them in damp and rainy conditions and given them a basic wipe down afterward.

If you call and speak to someone in customer service they might replace your magazine as a gesture of goodwill. It wouldn't be exactly unreasonable to consider rusting of a plain blued finish assembly to be the result of owner neglect, though.

jon_in_wv
September 17, 2010, 04:17 PM
Agreed. Clean and lube your parts weapon and it will last a lifetime. If you expect S&W to do it for you, it won't.

Lonestar49
September 17, 2010, 04:39 PM
It just flabbergasts me that people expect the manufacturer to refinish things they can't take care of.

I can understand if there is a problem in the finish of the slide like a bare spot or something but come one. Oil the damn thing. If it's rusting you're not taking care of it.


...

I agree here, along with, during actual ccw carry, what kind of hostler, open end, closed end, short/open holster..? Along with some people bring out rust in guns exposed close to one's body far more than others, so it may be a personal thing or combo of both holster choice and one's self..

There are several very good, newer (age) products that one can use on ones guns and mags by cleaning them with such products, one being Eezox, which I use most of the time and because of rotation choices, I can let them sit for a week or more and if I see any dry spots, then I know it has bonded to the metal pours and if it still shows an ice like sheen, it's protected as well..

A slight extra bonus with Eezox is that IF I had to use/shoot any of the sitting guns with just the Eezox on the rails/guides/return rod and spring/exterior of barrel and interior of barrel (using just "a little") to leave nothing more than an ice like sheen, any of those sitting guns will shoot and cycle and keep cycling for 100's and 100's of rounds, as it, too, is a lubricant (thin like CLP) but has the edge with its bonding capability (making any metal to metal contact slippery) and this has worked over the last 3yrs including inside and outside of all mags..

Prevents rust:

No rust, no jams but to be clear, to me, Eezox is a "bottom layer of defense" as any working guns get a light coating of gun grease on the rails and guides. And an added very light touch of gun oil on springs, guide rod and spring.

Still old school there and it all works, no rust - none - be it mags or guns per inspections at least once a week, sometimes a bit longer but, none the less, "good care" of ones guns is the key and can be "aided" with some very fine products out there, and speaking of personal use and results, Eezox is one of them.

http://eezox.com/gun-care.html

http://eezox.com/testimonials.html

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/eezox-whtx100.jpg



Ls

ForumSurfer
September 17, 2010, 04:43 PM
If they paid shipping both ways and refinished the slide, what more did you expect?

I would think that rust on a magazine would fall under normal wear...is there something in warranty that obligates them to more?

I agree. Call them about the mag if you want, maybe they will fix it.

A little rust on a mag happens, though. I have a few 1911 mags that are blued and have enough rust on them that I would be almost ashamed to show. It happens, it is what it is and they work. It can be delayed, but not avoided on magazines that see use. Particularly out doors. I shoot on my own land and my mags hit the dirt during changes...sometimes wet dirt. I can clean them and keep them oiled, but they can, do and will rust.

Full Metal Jacket
September 17, 2010, 05:24 PM
It just flabbergasts me that people expect the manufacturer to refinish things they can't take care of.

I can understand if there is a problem in the finish of the slide like a bare spot or something but come one. Oil the damn thing. If it's rusting you're not taking care of it.

the m&p's are known for rusting issues. i saturated my m45c in oil, and the slide/barrel are still rusted. google is your friend, or simply check out mp-pistol forum. it's a known issue, although not widespread of course. i've actually never had a gun rust on me before in 20 years of shooting.

it certainly doesn't afflict most m&p's, but it does happen. not sure if it's the melonite process done incorrectly, or what...

actually i just called s&w a second ago about it, they're sending out a shipping label for me. great service :)

Mags
September 17, 2010, 07:37 PM
FMJ, I bet you didn't ask for a free mag either huh? :)

Full Metal Jacket
September 17, 2010, 08:21 PM
FMJ, I bet you didn't ask for a free mag either huh?

the mp45c mags are fine, no rust lol.

incidentally, they sent me two free mags for my mp40c i used to have when i was having reliability issues--no questions asked :)

jackpinesavages
September 17, 2010, 10:56 PM
I own several M&Ps and a couple of 1076s. No rust on the M&Ps, and S&W covered shipping to do the updates to the 1076s. They also went through the 1076s and made parts replacements where they saw it needing to be done. For free. Without me asking for them, or posting whiny pictures about it on the interwebs.

If it bothers you: fix it. If you can't yet fix it yourself: learn how. If you have further entitlement issues: continue watching Oprah. :eek:

RX-178
September 18, 2010, 12:05 AM
If it's rusting you're not taking care of it.

To all the posters towing this line, I suggest you READ the thread that the OP is referencing. He has described surface rust forming on the slide within 6 HOURS of cleaning.

DenaliPark
September 18, 2010, 12:29 AM
Hmm, I had an M&P compact that rusted, in fact it had rust on the slide(at the breech)right from the box. I speculated as to why at the time, and I am positive that I'm correct in assuming that it has to do with the degradation of the stainless steel due to immersion in the salt-nitiding bath(melonite/tenifer)which was supposed to of course make it Glock like, and highly corrosion resistent.
I remember contacting S&W about it, explaining that the process actually works the reverse on stainless steel, making it highly susceptible to corrosion, are they still treating them to the salt bath?

Manco
September 18, 2010, 01:14 AM
it certainly doesn't afflict most m&p's, but it does happen. not sure if it's the melonite process done incorrectly, or what...

While it could be something else I suppose, my understanding is that an improperly done Melonite treatment can actually ruin the corrosion-resistant properties of the stainless steel used in the slide and barrel. When this happens, the M&P will rust very readily--in the most extreme cases, apparently more so than even plain, unprotected non-stainless steel, at least from what I've seen and heard. Normally an M&P is pretty easy to care for, but those that have been subjected to a bad nitrocarburizing bath (which for stainless steel has to be done JUST right) are defective and need to be refinished or replaced. It's rare these days, and S&W will fix it free of charge, but when a bad batch comes through, pretty much everybody hears about it.

HOOfan_1
September 18, 2010, 01:48 AM
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757818_-1_757814_757812_image

1. Lifetime Service Policy

We will repair any defect in material or workmanship without charge to the original purchaser for as long as you own the handgun.

I fail to see how the OP wanting a refinish job on a rusting pistol that is under a year old shows that he has entitlement issues.

If you want to give him hell for complaining about it before S&W had a chance to rectify it, so be it, but he laid down $400+ for a pistol and a policy. Wanting a repair for what is obviously a defect is hardly unreasonable. If Smith & Wesson took this stance, they would quickly be out of business.

9mmepiphany
September 18, 2010, 01:57 AM
They picked up shipping both ways, refinished his slide and sent it back, that is in the past. He thinks they owe him more

They lived up to their warranty, that is why people are saying that he is having entitlement issues.

Manco
September 18, 2010, 02:00 AM
Hmm, I had an M&P compact that rusted, in fact it had rust on the slide(at the breech)right from the box. I speculated as to why at the time, and I am positive that I'm correct in assuming that it has to do with the degradation of the stainless steel due to immersion in the salt-nitiding bath(melonite/tenifer)

That has to be it, because most M&Ps seem to be very corrosion-resistant, while a few (these days--there used to be many more in the early days) are rust-magnets that apparently need to be oiled every hour or else they'd rust in a desert. :eek:

which was supposed to of course make it Glock like, and highly corrosion resistent.

I'm sure the designers knew that it doesn't work that way for stainless steel. The metal itself (through-hardened 416R) provides the corrosion resistance, while the Melonite nitrocarburizing further hardens the surface against contact wear, and as an added bonus provides the characteristic matte black finish. The end result should be a relatively soft layer of whatever that black stuff is, over a super-hard layer of nitrogen-infused steel, over heat-hardened 416R stainless steel. Unfortunately, if anything goes wrong with the process, then the stainless steel could be ruined with regard to corrosion resistance, at least to a certain shallow depth.

Glocks are different in that they start with standard (for firearms) chromoly steel (probably grade 4140 or 4150), and are then basically case-hardened with the Tenifer process (different trade name, same family of processes), which in this case also provides excellent resistance to corrosion (the surface finish is something completely different and unrelated). There is nothing magical or secret about the process, which existed a long time before Glock made guns, and is used by other firearm manufacturers as well. Why S&W doesn't simply use the same materials and processes is a great mystery to me, but nevertheless the M&P should be highly resistant to corrosion as well.

I remember contacting S&W about it, explaining that the process actually works the reverse on stainless steel, making it highly susceptible to corrosion, are they still treating them to the salt bath?

I guess they didn't say anything in response, then? When done a certain way, the process leaves most of the stainless properties intact, but it's harder to get right than the process that is used on chromoly. The end result is a slide (and barrel) that is stainless throughout, hardened throughout, even harder on the surface, and coated with some weird black oxide or whatever that is. Alright, I'm sure that the M&P's slide could grind down the slide of virtually any other pistol in existence, but that's not really necessary. :rolleyes:

Skylerbone
September 18, 2010, 11:21 AM
Having once again learned from my fellow High Roaders', I am now inclined to side with the op on this one.

While he posted his pistol's issue before giving S&W a chance to reprieve themselves, it can now be seen as an alert for those looking at a future purchase to carefully inspect the pistol before delivery. Finish should be right out of the box.

I do indeed feel S&W ought to compensate him for the hassle and for ignoring the magazine after inspection. My apologies to the op for implying he did not properly care for the pistol.

Mags
September 18, 2010, 12:46 PM
I fail to see how the OP wanting a refinish job on a rusting pistol that is under a year old shows that he has entitlement issues

The problem with the slide's finish definetly needed to be coreected by S&W and it was. Alot of people have a problem with how the OP wanted something extra for free after the slide was refinished, read all the posts before you post and you would have caught that.

DenaliPark
September 18, 2010, 02:15 PM
That has to be it, because most M&Ps seem to be very corrosion-resistant, while a few (these days--there used to be many more in the early days) are rust-magnets that apparently need to be oiled every hour or else they'd rust in a desert. :eek:



I'm sure the designers knew that it doesn't work that way for stainless steel. The metal itself (through-hardened 416R) provides the corrosion resistance, while the Melonite nitrocarburizing further hardens the surface against contact wear, and as an added bonus provides the characteristic matte black finish. The end result should be a relatively soft layer of whatever that black stuff is, over a super-hard layer of nitrogen-infused steel, over heat-hardened 416R stainless steel. Unfortunately, if anything goes wrong with the process, then the stainless steel could be ruined with regard to corrosion resistance, at least to a certain shallow depth.

Glocks are different in that they start with standard (for firearms) chromoly steel (probably grade 4140 or 4150), and are then basically case-hardened with the Tenifer process (different trade name, same family of processes), which in this case also provides excellent resistance to corrosion (the surface finish is something completely different and unrelated). There is nothing magical or secret about the process, which existed a long time before Glock made guns, and is used by other firearm manufacturers as well. Why S&W doesn't simply use the same materials and processes is a great mystery to me, but nevertheless the M&P should be highly resistant to corrosion as well.



I guess they didn't say anything in response, then? When done a certain way, the process leaves most of the stainless properties intact, but it's harder to get right than the process that is used on chromoly. The end result is a slide (and barrel) that is stainless throughout, hardened throughout, even harder on the surface, and coated with some weird black oxide or whatever that is. Alright, I'm sure that the M&P's slide could grind down the slide of virtually any other pistol in existence, but that's not really necessary. :rolleyes:
Nitrocarburizing as you put it, is not a good treatment for stainless steel/alloys, S&W was well aware of it when I contacted them. They of course continue to treat their stainless to the process anyway, likely the salt/acid bath is performed in some abreviated fashion, or rather in a quicker process, unforntuneately the nitrocarburizing breaks down the stainless aspect of stainless by making it brittle! This is just a fact...The result is that they have a much higher then anticipated rate of defect to the stainless steel they have had treated(S$W doesn't actually do it themselves).

Magic_Man
September 18, 2010, 06:08 PM
They are sending me a replacement magazine.

If you don't agree that I should have been given something extra for my troubles, that's is quite alright. However, LOL @ entitlement issues.

PT1911
September 18, 2010, 06:12 PM
SO, you have a problem that they fixed your gun and didnt do something you should have done in the first place...

breakfree and steel wool and it will be good as new... rust happens. Check your guns often and take care of it before it becomes a real problem...

Sending them a rusty mag only gave the rust more time to get worse!

After looking at your first thread, it seems the original problem could have been avoided. Guns must be cleaned and maintained. I dont care what finish the gun has, moisture (especially in the form of sweat...ie EDC!!!!) will cause the gun to rust every time...

Once again, check your gun often, use breakfree and steel wool.

I have no doubt that in less than a year, if you do not oil the surface and clean it often (get the sweat off!!!) it will rust again and we will be right back to where we started. I do not see this as a problem with the gun. None of my guns, stainless, blued, blued stainless, new or old have rust on them...nor do their mags.... I give a lot of credit to S&W for even covering this under the warranty at no cost to you.

Take better care of your gun.


Also, a gun rusting in the first year of ownership shows NOTHING... Rust doesnt form on a schedule, it forms when moisture or corrosive material is left in contact with metal long enough for the oxidation process to occur... can happen in hours!

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